Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

lemko

Sony used to have a good reputation. Now, it's the same junk manufactured in some third-world toilet like every other television. They're all the same TV with a different brand's label. Maybe the kids making Sony TVs get a bologna sandwich for lunch versus a bowl of rat meat gruel.

lemko

Of course they don't want to sell their "prestige" car at regular Hyundai dealers. Do you think luxury buyers want to listen the the slimeball screaming $99 Down! $99 a month for a new Elantra!" for bad credit folks who just took the bus down to the dealership after their 1988 Excel just puked a transmission on the corner of Crip Avenue and Blood Boulevard?

fintail

I don't see anything wrong with the Malibu looks wise...its a lot better than any of the previous versions dating back to 1997, for sure. But, the rental image has seriously damaged the name. H might end up treading a thin line on this issue.

smarty666

He was definitely wrong about the size issue. I posted the numbers for each several post ago and they are about equal in overall size. The Genesis is a inch and half wider but the Avalon is a inch and half longer. Those two cancel each other so they are about the same size.

tjc78

The back seat is where the Avalon shows its size. Its roomier back there, and the floor is nearly flat so 3 across seating is a breeze. The reclining rear seat is nice too.

Kirstie_H

A reporter would like to speak to consumers who are in the market for a premium luxury car and may also be considering a Hyundai Equus, but may not be convinced that it is a valid competitor in the premium luxury market. If you are interested in being interviewed, please send an email to jacevedo@edmunds.com by end of day Friday, September 3, 2010.

smarty666

Just like any car, each has its pros and cons compared to the other. There are things the Genesis does better than the Avalon and things the Avalon does better than the Genesis. At the same price point and similarly equipped, one is not hugely better than the other. It all depends on what factors/characteristics are most important to you when your cross shopping vehicles.

captain2

The Genesis is a inch and half wider but the Avalon is a inch and half longer. Those two cancel each other so they are about the same size
ahh, but you're forgetting the inherent space efficiencies of FWD layouts vs the RWD ones. Give me 5 full grown adults and a 500 mile trip , I guarantee you they will be happier in a post 05 Avalon than the Gen. And if those five really did'nt want to get stuck in some snowdrift along the way - also the Av no question. Bling factor,-if that's what floats your boat - try the similarily priced Av Limited to any level Gen. And no the XLS or even the Ltd are not 'luxury cars' - they are only damn fine upscale sedans - just like the Gen is. Surprised yet?
The other Gen competitor incidentally that will blow away the Gen from an interior space/accommodation point of view, BTW, the Taurus. Hell, I'd be willing to wager that even Hyundia's own (and seemingly abandoned) Azera will outspace a mere Gen sedan.
And did I forget to mention FE AND acceleration (though a bit closer on both counts) , or the fact that the Av has led TCO comparisons pretty much from day one?
I'll grant you that pretty much any Avalon does take the Boulevard cruiser concept to the extreme ( as do most other Toyota products) but there remains solid reasons why the current design Av was selling up to 10,000 copies a month when it was new - not a paltry 1500 that our fanboys seem to be so proud of

smarty666

well said! You are right about the inherent space efficiencies of FWD and RWD. I have both FWD and RWD vehicles and you do get more space, especially inside with FWD most of the time.

tjc78

At the same price point and similarly equipped, one is not hugely better than the other.

After owning both I would agree. In another forum here I mentioned that if you are looking for a comfortable highway cruiser with lots of room the Avalon may be the ticket OTOH if you want something a little sportier with RWD and crisper handling you may apreciate the Genesis.

tjc78

And did I forget to mention FE AND acceleration

Acceleration wise the V6 Genesis and Avalon are equal, the Gen has a touch more power but more weight. As for FE I have consistently in all counts been one MPG lower in the Gen than the Avalon. .

captain2

IMO luxobuyers are a lot more brand conscious than toastercar buyers
of course they are - and what of the toastercari buyer? Somebody who looks at a spec sheet, a semi worthless warranty and most of all a price before buying his/her 'toastercar' - and not even buying a 'name' toastercar at that - we have others that sell those.

captain2

yep, I did say it was close - although I haven't seen any Gen V6 tests match the 6 second flat 0-60 times I have for the Av. And while I have only experienced the 3.8 in an Azera, I will also say that the Toyota 2GR is a smoother and much more refined engine than anything in any Hyundai. As it should be.
Might even go so far as to say that it is the best V6 available in any mass produced car - until I drove an E350 - close, despite being the wrong geometry.

tjc78

And while I have only experienced the 3.8 in an Azera, I will also say that the Toyota 2GR is a smoother and much more refined engine than anything in any Hyundai

The 2GR is a smoother engine than the 3.8 I will not argue at all with that. I drove a V8 Gen recently and have to think that if Hyundai can get the 3.8 to that level of smoothness it would be a step in the right direction.

As for acceleration, seat of the pants IMO they are equal. I forget who got 6 sec for the Avalon (C&D?) but most are mid 6s right where the Gen is.

captain2

I forget who got 6 sec for the Avalon (C&D?)
yeah that $30k sedan comparo in the summer of 05 - and I also can't imagine that you, I, or anybody else that's reasonably sane would ever abuse their car to match it either. But put me on 'Pink Slips' -a box stock Av, a box stock Gen, and 2 equally abusive drivers my bet would be on the Av, much for the same reason that the Av is what I'd want to drive on snowy roads, more off the line traction with the FWD as opposed to more wheelspin with the Gen. HP to Wt. is virtually identical.

backy

Until the Genesis outsells a similar price luxury sedan I think my argument holds up pretty well.

So, you are saying Hyundai should give up its traditional value proposition and sell its cars at the same prices as its competition? Thus, for example, the Genesis should sell for the same price as the likes of the Lexus GS and Infiniti M? Why should Hyundai give up that advantage?

The fact is, there are few true luxury sedans that sell for what the Genesis goes for. That is a big part of the Genesis' value proposition: buy a RWD luxury car for the same price as a fancy FWD family car. Buy a 375 hp V8 luxury car for the same price as V6 luxury cars that have fewer features.

tjc78

No IMO it should be outselling the ES350, G, 3series, & TL. This is the competition for this car, since many, many people shop by price point. I just cannot understand how people put this car with the GS and M. Now, OTOH it does provide a bit more bang for the buck (mostly size/power) than the ES & G without the badge.

tjc78

buy a RWD luxury car for the same price as a fancy FWD family car

On that note as well, tell me why the Genesis doesn't outsell the Avalon, LaCrosse, or Taurus?

captain2

Hyundai should give up its traditional value proposition and sell its cars at the same prices as its competition? Thus, for example, the Genesis should sell for the same price as the likes of the Lexus GS and Infiniti M? Why should Hyundai give up that advantage?

they can't, of course, because that is the power (and value) of the Hyundai name right now. Like it or not anything with a Hyundai badge is EXPECTED to be cheaper (or higher on the value proposition as you call it). Yet another part of the problem with a Hyundai branded product finding room in the luxury market

captain2

tell me why the Genesis doesn't outsell the Avalon, LaCrosse, or Taurus?
because it's a Hyundai ...otherwise it certainly should, especially if you think that the buyers put that much value in things like dangerous RWD and gas hog V8s.

toye

Of course Hyundai doesn't have the satuation of dealerships as Toyota, GM, and Ford. As Hyundai grows more successful they will add more to their network and increase sales.

In the midwest away from the big cities you don't see very many foreign cars, just the D3 and a few Toyota's and Honda's. For SUV's all I saw was brand new Enclaves. I felt like I was still in the 70's

captain2

think about that a bit - there literally are thousands and thousands of abandoned dealerships available literally all over the country right now, and likely for pennies on the dollar. The point being that IF there was that much demand for Hyundai products there is a relatively inexpensive means to get that product distributed very quickly and easily. This would include, naturally, any logical move into a 'Genesis' only dealership.
Resistance to relatively 'new' things will vary in different parts of the country as you note - as will the baggage that any particular name carries with it. I have no problem with fanboy contentions that Hyundai is making some progress and FTM doing it at breakneck speed - but I do believe that consumer perceptions, however mistaken, are still a big problem for Hyundai especially if they are thinking about products in the so called luxury market.

toye

As I said as Hyundai becomes more sucessful. It would be stupid for any car company to jump right in with the thousands of vacant dealerships. Already this is happening where I read that some Hyundai dealers are expanding and taking over vacant dealerships. Oh and don't forget they have to supply the cars as well they need to increase production to meet the expected higher demand (that is in the works now in AL for the Sonata)

It not going to happen overnight but Hyundai is aiming at being the 3rd largest automobile company in the world by 2020.

backy

On that note as well, tell me why the Genesis doesn't outsell the Avalon, LaCrosse, or Taurus?

Why didn't Genesis outsell these FWD cars that go for less out the door than the Genesis? Not really apples to apples, is it? But actually, in August, Genesis DID outsell Avalon, and YTD trails Avalon by less than 1000 units. Of course, that includes the coupes, but not too bad considering Toyota has twice the number of dealerships as Hyundai.

Anyway, whatever happened to the "exclusivity" angle for what makes a luxury car, a luxury car? Now it appears the measure is, how many units can you sell?

backy

We'll soon have a case study to test your theory. Fiat is demanding that Chrysler dealers get separate dealerships to sell the Fiat 500. That's right, separate dealerships to sell a single model. Kinda like people who have said Hyundai should have forced dealers to open separate dealerships to sell one model (Genesis). So we'll see how this works out for Chrysler, er, Fiat.

backy

By your reasoning, Avalon should outsell Genesis by at LEAST 2:1--and actually a lot more than that, given Toyota has twice as many dealerships. But it doesn't. Sales are pretty even in 2010. Why is that? :surprise:

backy

"Cheaper" is not the same thing as "higher value proposition", so please don't imply that I consider them one in the same even though you do. A product can be the same price or even more expensive than its competition, but offer higher value. Example: right now, due to no rebates, the Sonata is higher priced OTD than many competitors. But Hyundai is selling them as fast as they can make them.

smarty666

Unfortunately sales numbers is a factor in the whole equation so to speak. The M has suffered with this. Despite being a really nice car, and the new one selling a lot better than the old one, its never been able to come close to selling in the levels the 5-Series and E-Class sell which are its prime competitors.

Unfortunately I have to disagree with you about the sales numbers compared to the Avalon, LaCrosse, Taurus, and Maxima. In a normal economy, I would tend to agree with you, but with the recession the way it is, people are shopping now more than ever for cars based on a budget or certain price points and thus are cross shopping cars more often based on prices. Most people, except for enthusiast and car nuts like us probably don't even know the Genesis is RWD but its shopped with those other FWD vehicles b/c of the V6 price point and equipment it carries. Except for the RWD vs FWD, the Genesis is pretty similarly equipped to those other vehicles mentioned.

backy

And the Tau (V8) of course... not available on Avalons/LaCrosses/Taurii/Maximas at ANY price. And standard leather... how many of those cars have that?

And why is it such a surprise to many people that automakers like Ford, GM (Buick), and Toyota outsell Hyundai when they have 2x or more dealerships compared to Hyundai? How many dealers does Ford have--4000 or more?

smarty666

Well when you go into a V8 that is a different animal and thus higher prices. Not all of those vehicles have V8 options as you pointed out. I'm talking about V6 versions of all these cars. Most people know what size engine they are going into, especially a V8 since it has a price premium. Once you go into the V8 version of the Genesis, there are few if any cars in that price range that offer the V8. Once you go into the Genesis V8 you then need to go into the luxury divisions to get a V8 vehicle competitor but then your at a much higher price premium over the Genesis, typically 10-15k price difference. In the V8 version, the Genesis has a big advantage over those vehicles in price and bang for the buck. BUT, by the way, how many V8's do they really sell of the overall total? I would suspect the V8's make up a verysmall percentage of Genesis sales do they not?

I never understood the demand of need for the Genesis to even offer a V8. Virtually nothing else in the premium sedan or entry-level lux sedan segment in the Genesis price ranges offers a V8 option so why does the Genesis need to? Especially with gas prices and CAFE standards coming down the pike I don't see any big demand for that V8 option at that price range. Then there would be no need for Hyundai to grasp at straws and try to play with the big boy luxury sedan players at the Genesis level. They could have just left a V6 and V8 option for the Equus since, to me, that vehicles looks and feels more like a luxury sedan competitor to the M, E-Class, 5-Series, A6, GS, etc!

You do have a point that Hyundai is at a disadvantage for sales since they don't have as man stealers as the others do but that can all change, especially now with their increased sales, market share, product quality, reliability, etc. There is no excuse for Hyundai to not begin expanding now in the US.

sweendogy

Look up comparision tests Genesis then Look up comparison tests Avalon.. nuf said..

Geni won 2009 NA Car of the Year-- this is a voted on by car journalists, not edmunds bloggers

The Dodge Caravan has a boatload of cupholders, room, and is good in the snow(laughable).

I mean is toyota serious.. why buy this when you can go ES 350-- same car- both camrys..

sweendogy

smartie,
V8 option - car still under 40k so the price increase is minimal if your shopping against a german/infiniti/lexus with a v8-- - I think this is prob ONE of the reasons why acura has fallen so much from the "big boys"- (style and bore factor another couple of reasons)- every other lux car company has a V8-- so it shows HYnNDai is true to this division. -- CAFE standards... ok i guess you have apoint but then again you prob didnt see this.

http://detnews.com/article/20100805/AUTO01/8050366/Hyundai-vows-50-mpg-fleet-fue- l-efficiency

They are clearly making a run in the US market, more plants, huge amts of ad spending and quality products with support of the car mags- long way from the EXCEL.

backy

BUT, by the way, how many V8's do they really sell of the overall total? I would suspect the V8's make up a verysmall percentage of Genesis sales do they not?

45 percent.

tjc78

Of course, that includes the coupes

How can you actually include the coupe? It is a completely different vehicle. That would be like adding in sales of the Solara to the Avalon. I think its a bit of "spin" that Hyundai won't separate the two. I know one thing in my neck of the woods I see about 3 coupes to one sedan, not that I see many of either.

Why didn't Genesis outsell these FWD cars that go for less out the door than the Genesis?

Any one of the three could get more expensive than certain Genesis models. Have you seen the price of the SHO? :surprise:

fintail

Not looking to fight - but where does that number come from? Doesn't seem to reflect what I see on the road.

backy

Why are you asking ME why Hyundai includes the Genesis coupe in their Genesis sales numbers? Better to ask Hyundai. It's not unprecedented, though. For example, BMW includes the 3 Series coupe with the sedan sales. But they are totally different exteriors. They share a (tweaked) chassis (as does Genesis coupe with sedan) and share some engines (as does Genesis coupe with sedan).

Interesting though you brought up the Solara. When it was actually selling, it WAS included in the sales numbers for the Camry, in fact Toyota used to call it "Camry Solara" even though it had a totally different exterior and interior. So looks like Toyota and BMW are "spinning" also.

How many SHOs are sold, vs. V8 Genesis sedans?

backy

From HMA's president/CEO. But hey, he was probably lying when he told that to Edmunds.com, right? :P

smarty666

really? wow :surprise: I didn't realize V8's made up almost half their sales. Quite impressive since you consider the luxury division vehicles that offer V6 and V8 options tend to sell the V8 versions in a tiny % of the vehicles total sales.

smarty666

Like I said to backy, I'm not surprised they are doing this b/c Hyundai has no real excuse to not be expanding here in the US. They have been doing real well for the last 2 yrs and there products are finally class competitive, plus their reliability has improved a lot. Within several years, there car stealers should be as numerous as Toyota or GM!

fintail

Oh, minister of propaganda Krafcik? Yeah...

aqua33v6

Went down to the marina for a sunset walk last night, and saw 2 Genesis sedans in the yacht club parking lot as we walked by. They must have forgotten to read all the anti-Hyundai propaganda on here first. Those foolish rich yacht club people!

backy

Let's see... the executive is from Hyundai... yes, that makes him a "minister of propaganda" then.

Who do you think is better suited to deliver to the public facts about Hyundai's US sales? The President and CEO of HMA, who has sales figures readily available to him, or a poster on this discussion who just takes a wild guess?

fintail

Well, he is a propagandist, right?

I'd like to see these numbers. They obviously don't include coupe sales - but I guess we can include and exclude coupe data from Genesis stats when it paints a prettier picture.

I don't doubt the numbers in logic...if I was to buy a Genesis, I would choose the V8...and from the 6cyl pricing scheme, you could probably get a loaded V8 for 38-39K. I don't notice many V8s on the road though.

I did see a rebadged sedan today though, no swoopy H to be seen.

backy

John Krafcik is no more a "propagandist" than Ernst Lieb or any other President/CEO of a corporation. They are spokespeople for their corporations, and as such give information about their companies to the media. But when the President/CEO of a corporation tells the press information about their sales history, I tend to believe them. Not because Krafcik or Lieb or any other President/CEO is necessarily a wonderful person, but because they could get into big trouble by misleading the public about the performance of their corporations by giving inaccurate information to the press.

But if you wish to dispute Krafcik's numbers, you are free to provide evidence to the contrary.

Some people prefer the de-badged look, think it's "cleaner". Like this...

fintail

That's not how it works. I see no source data on those sales. Until then, I have every right to be skeptical.

Krafcik's PR masquerading as news here is pretty renown.

I can also say I have been to the moon. Until you can prove otherwise, you have to believe me.

The Genesis I saw had the Genesis badge replacing the H, it wasn't the Euro look, it was rebadged rather than debadged.

I think fake badging can be funny if done right. E200 CDi on my E55 - funny, (and those awful wheels are anything but clean). Maybe Sonata badge on a Genesis? :shades:

backy

Are you an executive of a public corporation? Do you face civil and/or legal penalties including fines and/or jail time for lying to the public about the performance of your corporation? No, I didn't think so. So I don't believe anything you say. :P

Why pick on Krafcik for saying positive things about his company? That's what any President/CEO does--including Herr Lieb. You don't seem to mind his PR/propaganda.

fintail

Yeah, lots of civil and legal penalties for statements about engine size sales stats. I didn't know there was a lawyer here. Oh yeah, there's not

It just seems odd to me - other cars in the same size class don't seem to have similar engine distributions - I know I see far more 6cyl E and 5er than V8. Maybe the GS and M are similarly distributed to the Genesis claims...hmmm

I don't see anyone with the same schtick here as Krafcik.

stever

I think the reference was to officers of publicly traded corporations being subject to various SEC and shareholder actions if they make comments that affect the stock value that turn out to be wrong or if they lie on their reporting forms to the feds.

That potential issue doesn't really seem to have slowed Hyundai down though - lots of suits anyway (Hyundai boss Chung Mong Koo hit with $60m fine for example).

fintail

IMO none of which has to do with engine size distributions, and numbers that have no source data. But maybe we should just believe it, just like we should believe the
Genesis and Equus are 100% equal to the big players.

I think the company has had home market corruption problems for eons.

backy

It just seems odd to me - other cars in the same size class don't seem to have similar engine distributions...

That's because they don't... the Genesis' 45 percent in V8s is class-leading. Oh, that's from Hyundai sources, which you don't believe. Sorry.

But maybe we should just believe it, just like we should believe the
Genesis and Equus are 100% equal to the big players.

The statement about distribution of Genesis sales by engine size was a statement of fact. Your statement about Genesis and Equus being 100% equal to the big players is an opinion. There's a big difference. Also, I don't recall Krafcik ever saying that Genesis and Equus are 100% equal to the "big players." Can you share the quote with us?

The reason you don't see the "same schtick" from other presidents/CEOs is because you don't look for it. You only look to pick on Hyundai. Everything they do is wrong, everything they say is wrong or inaccurate. I am trying to figure out what your motivation is to do that. Can you enlighten us?