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Comments
And it obviously doesn't include the coupe, does it? So H propagandists can include the coupe to spin things one way, and exclude it for a spin in a new direction. Fun.
Virtually everything Krafic says implies near or equality. Implication is subjective.
Who else is making such PR disguised as news statements at insideline?
What is your motivation to defend the swoopy H to the death? Sometimes it seems your only posting here is in reply to me. Why can't you ignore me if you don't like my style? You have no other recourse.
The coupe doesn't have a V8, so including the coupe in a discussion of how many cars have V6s and which have V8s would be illogical.
I posted the other InsideLine interviews with other automotive company heads earlier, because someone (you, maybe) complained that InsideLine was showing favoritism to Hyundai by publishing the Krafcik interview. The discussion has a Search feature.
I think you are mistaking posts from someone who thinks Hyundai has a decent chance for success in the luxury market (and who has 10 years of Hyundai ownership experience) with someone who is defending Hyundai "to the death". I know you would like me to ignore your posts, because then you could blast away indiscriminately at Hyundai, e.g. charge HMA's execs with publicly lying about their business results, with no one to call you on it. Sorry, won't happen. But I am impressed (and a bit surprised) you have time and interest enough to have read and analyzed every statement John Krafcik has made about Hyundai, to the point you know that virtually everything he says implies near equality or equality of Hyundai to other luxury automakers. Are you retired by chance?
But total Genesis sales always include the coupe. Except for when a spin prevents it...
I haven't bothered to look for any of Krafcik's PR babble elsewhere, I've only seen the insideline material, and it is all pretty shallow.
I'll "blast away" whether or not you ignore me, but really, for your sanity, you should ignore me, as you lack the ability to "call out" in any meaningful way. Are you a bigtime shareholder or a sycophant overpaid underworked HUSA exec by chance? :shades:
So you made your judgment about everything (sorry, now it's "virtually everything") Krafcik has said from a single article?
Re sycophant... check the definition. It includes false accusation and calumniation. Say hi to Herr Lieb next time you are in the office.
no that would be me - the article that I read was nothing more than corporate spin explaining why Krafcik thought the Gen Sedan was such a success (yeah right?) and therefore the upcoming Equus was not such a big step up and therefore not destined to suffer the same fate as the Phaeton. My question, that I never received an answer to, was that the 'interview' was such pro Hyundai propoganda ( that is Krafcik's job after all) that why was such an opportunity not granted to somebody else that could use the same sort of favorable press. I'm confident that Toyota USAs headman would be more than happy to 'interview' away their latest set of problems, for example. Where's that Edmund's interview???
IMO, it seems that Edmund's knows who's likely to butter its bread - and pay for all those Hyundai ad sidebars that appear on this forum. Hyundai has never really had too many problems spending a few bucks on self promotion, have they?
I recall no comments at all about Gen product mix BTW, and would doubt your (or even Krafcik's 45% claims (if he really made them)). Sorry it just doesn't make any sense and is also counter to what happens with about every other mfgr I know of.
this from the 1 consumer review on the Equus BTW :
never had a car that is so comfortable. We drive to Florida every winter and he has no (back) problems, even the Camry does not compare, we had one of those!
had me rolling on the floor! About a car you can't even buy yet, doesn't know the difference between a Sonata (I'm guessing) and an Equus, and obviously a target luxury buyer for Hyundai!
Yes, you did receive an answer to your question, thanks to Edmunds.com's Jeannie Fallon and me. Go take a look back a few pages to refresh your memory--it was in late June.
Pay for all the Hyundai ad sidebars... that's a good one.
It is a little ridiculous though for you to challenge the fact that John Krafcik made a comment about engine mix on the Genesis, when that article has been posted in this discussion and it's an easy task to find it via your favorite search engine.
Don't you have anything better to do than rehash stuff that's already been answered, and challenge things that are indisputable and easily verified? Just because you don't remember something, or haven't read something, or don't understand something, or don't believe something, doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.
Is anyone interested in a serious discussion on this topic? :sick:
So far from what I have seen, Krafic seems about as stable and grounded as Fox News.
Sycophant is a tool used in the creation of most mucky-muck suits.
If that's all you guys can do is whine, "Liar, liar, pants on fire!", it's time to give it a rest and let someone else have their say here, don't you think?
I don't have the ability nor the desire to prevent anyone from "having their say"...I'm not any kind of wannabe censor, unlike others...you're not a host or admin here, no matter how you'd love to control the thoughts and statements of others about the beloved swoopy H.
Please dude, if you don't like it, you can ignore me...I don't want to give anyone an ulcer. :shades:
Here is the current month of motor trend and look at the findings. Let's put to bed the debate-
I don't why that person is so bias against Hyundai... are they jealous of all the attention for the last 3 or so years of nothing but postive reviews and winning over skeptics (public opinion; the press etc.)
This is a new world in the auto industry if Hyundai doesn't do it some other car company will Nothing can be #1 forever.
From the Article...
Gripes? Naturally, we have a couple. The 3.8's ride, as we've experienced in the V-8 Genesis 4.6, can be "a bit pebbly and nervous," as Loh puts it. And during aggressive cornering over uneven pavement, the Genesis tended to exhibit an unwanted kickback through the helm.
This sounds exactly like what I have said time and time again. I am glad that it is in print. Especially the kickback "through the helm".
As for winning the comparo.... It proves what I have been saying all along, that the Taurus and Avalon (Max too why wasn't it included?) are the primary competition for the Genesis. Against those it does very well and will win most (if not all) of the comparisions due to handling well and a slightly more upscale interior.
Winning this comparison does nothing to prove Hyundai's place in the luxury arena, since neither car tested against is "luxury".
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If someone says "the sales mix of our car is 45% V8s", and you say you doubt the person is providing factual information, it's not some gray area, something that is "partially true" or "partially false." It's either true or false. You don't believe the statement. Hence you are calling HMA's President and CEO a liar. It's pretty simple. No amount of back-tracking on your part will change it.
Krafcik certainly could provide data to back his statement. But why does he have to? It would be impractical and ridiculous in the extreme, to expect every public statement of fact from every Hyundai employee to be backed by all the detailed info. "Please see Appendix A, which is 14 pages long, for all the detailed data that backs up the statements I made in this interview, because one person out there doesn't believe anything a Hyundai employee says." Yeah, right. Maybe Hyundai is waiting for those "big guys" in the luxury market to take the lead in providing this kind of info, then they will follow that lead. That would make some people here very happy--Hyundai taking the lead from other luxury automakers vs. taking a different approach.
and where are you coming up with an opinion that 'we' are 'geni' detractors??? :confuse:
whether the Genesis is a good car or a bad car, or even whether it is judged better than the other upscale sedans it competes with - is NOT what this forum is supposed to be about - which, of course, is about precisely what the title says - can Hyundai find a place in the luxury market. I don't believe any of your regular 'detractors' (not me, not fintail, not tjc) have ever said much negative about the car itself - actually quite to the contrary. Only that a Hyundai labelled product will never find a place in the luxury market - not with a Hyundai badge - and not for quite a few different reasons.
I would suggest to you that the mere fact that Motor Trend wants to test the Gen sedan against things like the Av and Taurus (other upscale sedans) only lends some support to the whole contention that Hyundai will never find that luxury place.
Groundbreaking technology?
Nothing but favorable reviews? Perhaps you should read some non-NA (never met a car we didn't like) press.
Making toastercars doesn't translate into excellence and desirability in other ends of the market.
How can you claim statement of fact when the source data does not exist? I see the term "our car", which is apparently narrowed down to the sedan, but when other sales figures are mentioned, all variants are included. Funny how that works. If you want to think I am calling the propagandist a liar, think that way. I couldn't care less.
All that would need to be done would be a provided breakdown of sales by body and engine type. Shouldn't be hard. Might be a couple hundred characters, an average paragraph at best.
I don't see the "big guys" in the upper end of the market providing arrogant PR disguised as news statements to insideline, either. But with the banner ad population I see here, I guess you get what you pay for.
What I have a problem with though, is the contention that any Hyundai badged product will ever compete (either in real terms or esp. in brand perception terms) with those true lux mfgrs - a room currently occupied by the Germans, and even the premium J3 brands (to a lesser extent IMO) - all of which is the point.
Never underestimate Hyundai!
Or else you will be greatly surprised.
But I know you can't help who you are!
:shades:
Learned that trick from your Govenor!!!!
You encourage me to ignore your posts, but keep asking me questions--real gems of questions, like the one above. How do you KNOW the source data does not exist? Of course the source data exists--it's sales data! Do you think Krafcik pulled the 45% number out of thin air? Have you ever been the president/CEO of a company, or even worked in sales management? They have con calls or meetings every week (maybe every day) on sales data, sliced every which way. This is data that Krafcik would have at his fingertips. Especially since it is exceptional for the class.
But, since you have asserted "the source data does not exist", fine--prove it. As you tell me all the time, "put up or shut up" (yes, I finished it for you--it's clear that is what you meant every time you said "put up or...").
While you're at it, please provide the link to the following cars and break down of sales by body and engine type (shouldn't be hard, right?):
BMW 3 Series
BMW 5 Series
MB C Class
MB E Class
MB S Class
Toyota Corolla / Matrix (no, not luxury, but if this info is so important, every manufacturer should provide it for every vehicle, yes?)
If you won't or can't provide that info, then you shouldn't expect anyone else to provide it either.
I see. So if an automobile magazine tests a car like the Genesis against certain other cars, it is a sign that the car (e.g. Genesis) is in that class of cars. Do I have that right?
Therefore, the Genesis must be in the same class as the MB E Class, the Jaguar XJ, and the Lexus GS:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/0810_2009_hyundai_genesis_4_6_luxury- _car_comparison/index.html
Geez, if Jimmy got this data from a conference call, he might have even mis-heard or mis-remembered the information, if it was prepared correctly at all.
Who knows if it was ever even seen in hardcopy form.
The onus is not on me to prove anything. These numbers are apparently not available to anyone but employees.
The proposed sales data for cars you list are as irrelevant as a 40K Euro Grandeur on the Autobahn - not applicable to the surroundings...none of their suits are making odd-looking claims about sales breakdowns. Yet another red herring distraction.
I don't work in the industry, I'm not of the overpaid underworked exec class, I don't have access to the data...and neither do the fanboys, apparently,
I'm not the one who made a claim with nothing to back it up other than babble from a suit.
Don't get me started on governors...around here you get bleeding heart tax 'n spend liberal or sinister bank-owning pawn of the housing and property development industry...yuck
By all accounts, the Genesis sedan has been a smashing success.
Later, in their long-term test update (29,700 miles), they have more to say about the Genesis 4.6:
By far the most popular car in our fleet for long-distance trips, the Genesis is proving to be a very dependable machine with few vices. ... The only repair we've had so far was a tire puncture in the left rear ($25).
There's not much to dislike about the Hyundai Genesis. About the only thing I don't like is the unnatural level of steering assist at speed on the highway. It's clear that Hyundai didn't want to overboost the rack, but in doing so they've created steering that's a tad too heavy and not especially communicative.
The Genesis has become one of my favorite cars in the fleet for day-to-day driving. Hyundai has done a terrific job making this car work so well on many levels. It is not the fanciest car in this class, nor the most sophisticated, nor the most image-conscious--but it does everything expected of it in a way that makes you respect the solid straightforward engineering and design of the car.
What is sometimes lost in all the debate is what I think is a key fact: the Genesis sedan was Hyundai's first serious foray into the luxury market (at least the US market). Yet the likes of R&T's editors proclaim it a smashing success, by all accounts. Makes me wonder what #2 will be like, and #3, and...
Saddle up!
2011 Hyundai Equus Signature: Introduction
Equus ia a super nice car. From what I'm hearing, their service will make even the most jaded customers happy.
I think that Hyundai will sell some, but not that many. The Genesis has hardly been a run-a-way success and a car 15/20K more isn't going to fly either. I believe they are bringing it here to show "what they can do".
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I'm in that camp as well. But their goal IIRC is to sell about 2,000 of them in North America. That's a low target and I'll bet they achieve it.
The Equus testing will be blogged about on an almost daily basis, so if you are one of those interested in a future purchase, how the various drivers at the Edmunds home office react should be of interest.
The rest of us will be interested to see what glitches develop over the next year.
Here's where you can read all the blog posts:
2011 Hyundai Equus Signature Long-Term Road Tests Archives
60K, in a very crowded highline market ...tough sell. High class livery car maybe?
The reviews are coming in that it's a luxo-barge ride. Just as you'd expect.
I'll bet a nice German handles better :shades:
Which continues to beg the question of why you are in here. Are you expecting to see a car wreck LOL?
It sounds like the target is 2,000 sales this year. I'm not sure if that means anything though. Could be that Hyundai just wanted to have a halo car they could put some tricked out stuff in so they can trickle down some of the bits that work to the Sonata. Not that Sonata sales need any help.
So, roughly 160 sales per month, or 5 per day. I guess it could happen. I wonder if they'll give a sweetheart lease too.
I am sure they will if it doesn't sell... got to move them somehow.
The way the Equus is priced it puts the large luxury car at the price point of a loaded 5, E or M midsize. If I had the budget for a 60K car I would consider it. OTOH, a 2 year old LS460 would be cheaper and have more snob appeal.
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At 60K, it better have a luxo barge ride!
At my point in life, I don't flog or race my cars. For 60K, I want luxury, reliability, and a quiet soft ride. I used to like lean, great handling cars, but I grew up. I still appreciate good handling cars. However, if I had one, I would test its limits about 2-3 times before growing bored. I would spend the other 6-10 years driving it strictly for comfort. If a person cares more than a little about extraordinary handling, maybe they shouldn't even be looking at the Equus.
Not saying I would be happy with a total dog that couldn't handle its way out of a jam. I think the Equus is a competent, safe car that won't wallow on turns or dive under hard braking, but don't really care about handling nuance. I'll leave that to the car magazine guys since I don't have a track or skid pad.
Glad this thread is back. Nice hearing from you guys again!
I think some might underestimate how much of a role snob appeal plays at that end.
OK, then, go ahead and visualize that wreck. The LS is "established competition" and Equus was deemed not only every bit as good as, but better than, the LS in at least one (read "some") professional review:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/10q4/2011_hyundai_equus_vs._2010- _lexus_ls460l-comparison_tests
Funny test too, base Equus vs overloaded LWB AWD LS isotank, but that's the media for you.
And maybe even some folks who are a little nervous about Toyota.
If an LS suffered "unintended acceleration", would the driver notice? :shades:
Looking back....
Just think in the past three years since the introduction of the Genesis has Hyundai moved forward. The new Genesis Coupe, Sonata, Tucson, Elantra, soon to be Veloster, Accent and Azera. Each one of them is at or near the top of their segment that have been introduced.
You may not think the LS is a "real" competitor in this luxury class. I am sure many people, including the editors of C/D, would disagree with you.
American automotive journalists, no doubt the most bought off on the planet, might disagree? Oh the shame! The way the LS doesn't sell in so many places tells enough of a story for me.
Why didn't they compare it with the better driving (and mainly better looking) competition?
Does the S and 7 handle better? Most likely yes, but I just have to believe that the average US buyer isn't pushing these cars anyway. The majority of Americans do prefer the floaty, isolating ride most Lexus and Toyota models offer. There is a reason why the Camry sells so well and year after year doesn't lose its soft ride.
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