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Comments
If you're concerned about the Azera's quality based on forum complaints, you had better check on the Toyota, Nissan, and Honda forums. You may find you aren't nearly as bad off as you think!
I have also read several reviews by professionals who pointed out the same problems I and many others have listed here and elsewhere. Unfortunately I did not find them until after I bought the car and yes I did test drive it for 45 minutes over varying roads.
As I have said before, the car is a 10, except for the ride and that should have been corrected before it was put on the market.
I am looking at other cars, but the trade-in on my Azera is not too good compared to what I am looking at. Too many have shown up at the dealers as trade ins already and they took a hit on selling them.
BTW, I thought the purpose of the forums was to share our opinions of cars and manufacturers, not to attack those who say negative things?
I'm not saying you're wrong about your particular car, but your opinion and experience are very clearly in the minority.
If you don't like JDP, then CR has 06+ models rated "Much Better than Average" in reliability.
If you don't like CR, 80% of the Hyundais rated by TrueDelta have better than average reliability, as well.
You can to accept that your experience is not necessarily the same as everyone else's.
So Hyundai built one bad Azera.
Everyone else is happy as can be.
This is where I learned about the suspension problem and how nationwide it is.
JD Powers gives everybody an award.
Consumer Reports has downgraded the reliability of the Azera to average, BUT more importantly, they state DO NOT BUY A USED 2007 AZERA. It is in the April Car Review issue. Personally, I don't know they can select out the 2007.
I have seen at least three Azeras with less than 10,000 miles on them on used car lots of other makes. Didn't go searching, just happened to see them.
I really hope Hyundai can come through and fix this problem for me and the others who are affected.
There's always 1 in every group. I think 20% of all people are never satisfied no matter what. Maybe that's a good thing, offsetting the 20% of people that are satisfied with almost anything.
Based on my experience with my Azera's bouncy/wallowing/uncomfortable ride, I am striking the Genesis off my list of cars to consider in the future. Also striking Hyundai SUV's off the list to replace my Toyota RAV4
I don't see how your Azera's ride makes you qualified to make assumptions about a different model that you've never driven.
The fact that you've made that assumption tells me you are biased against Hyundai. Perhaps for good reason, mind you, but still, biased.
If you are going to comment on the Genesis, at least sample one first so you have experience with that particular model.
In the meantime, I suggest you avoid the new Mazda Tribute Hybrid. My Miata has a nasty shimmy at high speeds.
See how absurd that sounds?
I very highly doubt that. If Hyundai prices this car at anything above the 30k mark, they will experience nearly the same fate with it as the Azera. It will languish on dealer lots for much longer than the industry average, and they'll be forced to bring out heavy incentives to move it.
The base engine is the same as in the Azera, and from a technical standpoint, the suspension doesn't appear, from what I've read, to be radically more advanced than the Azera.
I'm trying to be objective here. You simply can't expect the Genesis to be the equal of the 5 Series BMW, E Class Merc, or A6 - not in terms of driving dynamics. No way.
Reliability? That may be a different story. If there's one weakness Germans have shown recently, it's a propensity to let their desire to over-engineer lead to reliability issues that goes hand in hand with designing more sophisticated components having more moving parts, electronic components and pioneering technology.
And as to those with disposable incomes allowing them to choose 30k+ cars, Hyundai is still not an esteemed brand, rightly or wrongly. Most would opt for a lower end Lexus or Infinity, whether that is a rational decision or not.
If the Genesis is priced in the mid or high 30s, it will suffer a quick death at the hands of the Acura TL, Infiniti M35 and Lexus ES series.
Hyundai has dramatically improved their product line, quality and technology. But the competition has not exactly stood still during that transformation.
From the Genesis press release:
Genesis features a suspension design that is among the most sophisticated and refined anywhere, at any price. The front five-link suspension features upper and lower arms linking the front wheels to the chassis. This artfully articulated arrangement creates a virtual king pin axis that dramatically reduces unwanted kickback through the steering wheel as well as improving responsiveness. The five-link independent rear suspension is equally sophisticated, enabling precise suspension geometry for a premium ride and engaging handling prowess. The capabilities of the advanced front and rear-suspension are maximized through Amplitude Selective Dampers (ASD) allowing tuning flexibility at smaller damper displacements. The ASD suspension provides:
* Improved ride comfort with more body / wheel control
* Increase driving comfort without compromised handling
* Optimizes road surface contact
* Technology used in Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz models
This seems different than the suspension used on the Azera, which is closer to a stretched Sonata from what I've heard. For example, the front suspension is double wishbone, not five-link as on the Genesis.
Also FYI the Azera's 3.8L engine makes 290 hp, more than the Azera, so it can't be exactly the same engine.
Pricing is going to be very critical. An excellent price can help Genesis get a foot in the door of entry level luxury car shoppers.
The Genesis V6 uses the newest generation of Lambda engine, which is why you are seeing a large difference in power rating and fuel efficiency.
290hp V6 at 18/27; 375hp V8 at 17/25
Those are great numbers, especially from a rear-wheel drive 2 ton car.
Pricing has been out for a while also - the V6 will start at 33K, with the V8 at 38K; a loaded Genesis tops out at 42K.
"If Hyundai prices this car at anything above the 30k mark, they will experience nearly the same fate with it as the Azera."
First of all, that's not possible. Did you really think a loaded Genesis would sell under 30K? Wishful thinking there but had that happened, it would cannibalize the Azera like never seen before in history; not to mention Hyundai would probably lost a lot of $$$ on every Genesis sold in the US. You do realize this is a large premium/luxury car priced like a entry level premium car, right? Be thankful we are not getting the prices like in its home market.
Anyway, even with the car priced mostly in the 30K range, the pricing is still unbelivable. The specs and early reviews have been very good, for the most part. By the way, the Azera has been a respectable player so far in its first iteration - it has not sold in huge volume but it was never meant to be. That said, and much like the Veracruz, Hyundai has moved the bulk of its sold units in the upper trims, which is a good sign and bodes well for the arrival of the Genesis, even during a turmoiled economy.
In a perfect world, pricing should not dictate the success of an automotive product; rather, it should be somewhat complementary. In this segment, where badge and status are even more focused, it is understood Hyundai still has to play the pricing card in order to court perspective buyers, despite the excellent products. That said, just as the Japanese has shown, and also Hyundai now slowly turning the corner, when you can prove yourself time after time, eventually your nameplate would win buyers over without the price being the most important factor in the brand.
Here's a link to Car and Driver's first drive of the Genesis.
C&D Short Take
They seem to like it. In fact, their closing comment is...
That said, the Genesis stands poised to make drivers reevaluate their perceptions of the Hyundai brand, which is good for Hyundai and bad for the competition. In that respect, then, it looks like 1989 all over again.
1989? Think Toyota and Lexus.
(Go ahead. I know that last comment will generate a few flame comments. I can take it. )
I'm just saying that the real competition won't be the 5 Series or E Class. People buying those cars are very badge conscious, and often times have more money than brains, and choose an esteemed badge over a better vehicle, as long as their equally ignorant social circle of friends are more impressed with that choice.
The competition for the Genesis, even with its respectable level of luxury features and engine output, will be Buick Lucerne, VW Passat (the 6 cylinder especially), Toyota Avalon and cars in that range. All those cars, with the exception of the VW, are being heavily discounted right now, because of a general slump in auto sales and because of fuel prices.
I haven't had the opportunity to drive the Genesis, but the reviews I'm reading lead me to believe it's a better Azera, essentially, with more available technological features, and better exterior and interior design (though, the Azera had decent interior design and assembly, IMO).
Maybe they really will be able to get upper 30s and 40ish for the V8 models. Time will tell. If they do, I will be a little surprised, though.
Don't forget that the Avalon matches up well on paper to the Genesis in terms of size and horsepower (Avalon 268 hp), while having a fairly advanced suspension (geared towards comfort; a Japanese Buick, if you will) and Toyota dealers are selling it for anywhere from just under 25k to 34k.
As far as what the Genesis sells for in S. Korea, that's kind of moot, since most cars are dramatically cheaper in the U.S. than other parts of the world, including Canada.
I'm not sure what you consider to be a "fairly advanced suspension", but the Avalon has a pretty mundane suspension by modern standards: MacPherson struts up front, with coil springs and a stabilizer bar, and a two-link (vs. five links on the Genesis) MacPherson strut rear suspension with coil springs and stabilizer bar. Did you read the description of the Genesis' suspension in the C/D article? Did you see many similarities to the Avalon's suspension? I didn't.
The Avalon matches up very well with the Azera on paper. They are about the same size, price (Azera actually closer to the Camry V6 in price though), power, and target market: people who want a "better Buick."
Don't forget that the Avalon matches up well on paper to the Genesis in terms of size
and horsepower (Avalon 268 hp)or:
Don't forget that the Avalon matches up well on paper to the Azera in terms of size and horsepower (Avalon 268 hp)
Size, of course, doesn't tell the whole story. Take for example, the Avalon is longer than both the Genesis and the Azera on the outside, yet the Azera has the same amount of usable space (interior volume + trunk space) as the Avalon, the Genesis? Well, use your logic
I'll believe a rerun of 1989 when I see it :P
Joe - I'm not a big fan of the Avalon, and think the Genesis is sharper inside. The Avalon does have a near-Lexus like finish, trim level and assembly quality, however, as well as a very good quality ride level. Toyota has mastered ride comfort on what I would call 'average American roads,' which is why I believe they catapulted so high in sales in the U.S. Americans want ride comfort.
As for the difference in HP, the difference between 268 and 290 (for the base Genesis) is not that much, in reality, either on paper, or in how the cars will perform on the open road. The V8 Genesis obviously produces much more power, but will the fuel economy trade off be worth to Hyundai's typically value-oriented customer base? And will more than 10% of Genesis buyers be willing to pay a relatively large premium for an extra 100 horses, when the standard motor is more than adequate and gas prices are high?
I still tend to think a Genesis with a price tag of anywhere close to 8k to 10k more than a Toyota Avalon had better be noticeably better to all but the most discerning car buyer to get conquest sales.
As to the Azera comments, I agree with Backy that the Azera may be a sleeper bargain for the person willing to pay a slight premium over the V6 Sonata. The Azera's interior is very well put together, its reliability has been great so far, and it does not suffer from the suspension noise that has been the biggest blemish on the Sonata's report card.
I think sometimes we are too affixed in the automotive community to suspension, handling, etc - myself included. Let's not forget all of these cars we are talking about are not meant to be sports sedan, or driven like one. Neither Avalon nor Azera is anything to write home about in terms of their handling. They are both very comfortable large FWD sedans and purposeful design in such a way. I would get a Maxima if I was looking for handling and sportiness in the large FWD sedan category. That said, I believe the Genesis has the suspension setup to come very close to the feel of a sports sedan; on top of it, the North American spec is said to have a different setup than the domestic version recently tested by the US press. It's still a 2 ton car, mind you.
I do not think they are targeting the buyer who has previously already decided that paying a premium for a premium badge is indeed worth it. In other words I don't think they are trying to steal away the current premium buyer, though they may still get a few of those. I think they are more targeting the buyer who is new to the luxury market. Offering the opportunity to move into a luxury/premium vehicle maybe quicker and certainly at a lower cost than otherwise. Their advertising consistently mentions premium badges, not more mainstream buggies. They hope to compete almost purely on price much like they did in the mainstream market without the introduction of a premium badge.
Recent statements from them indicate that they did consider introducing a premium badge ala Toyota/Lexus. Their analysis suggested that it would take them some 50% longer to recoup the cost of doing so compared to Toyota/Lexus. So they proceeded with the "premium badges don't make sense" approach.
How well this is going to work remains to be seen. They may be well positioned considering the current economic turmoil. Maybe not. Of course the American consumer is very image conscious, but maybe this is changing. Shoot, even Toyota's recent campaign on the Corolla pushed "Live the dream for less coin" and that was on a pure econobox. Don't know if Hyundai can pull off the same kind of thinking at the upper end of the market. We'll see.
It's possible that some buyers that are financially right on the edge of buying a luxury badge will trade a lower monthly payment (Genesis) to help pay for higher gas. A $200 per month lower car note could really help out with gas.
Based on my 10,000 miles and other postings it appears that consistent, long-term quality is not yet there. When Toyoto introduced Lexus, Honda-Acura and Nissan-Infiniti, they had strong reputations for high quality cars. Hyundai has yet to establish that reputation.
Their first foray into "luxury" was the Azera and it has not proven out. Maybe if they get the Azera fixed and the other upscale cars prove out, Hyunda can actually produce a luxury car. I hope so.
Because a few people keep writing about the same problem over and over does not make the Azera a problem car. I just passed 22000 miles on my 07 and NEVER had any problems . The car rides great and it's well controlled. I have owned Audi's , BMW etc. and had all kinds of problems for the money I paid.
All I know is I could have purchase 2 Azera's for the price of some of luxury cars,
and not have the electrical and engine problems I had with the high price cars.
The suspension, as well, is as sophisticated as they come. The four main links on the two front corners are each attached to the hub with a ball joint. This arrangement locates the steering axis much closer to the center of the tire’s contact patch than it would with a conventional unequal-length control-arm suspension, which should improve steering feel and reduce bump steer. It’s an expensive setup, made more so by the use of lightweight aluminum for the links, knuckles, and brackets, and further evidence that Hyundai is making a serious effort here. That front suspension setup also hints at a yet-unannounced four-wheel-drive version because that arrangement reduces torque steer. The rear suspension knuckles are aluminum as well, connected to the chassis with five links.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/car_shopping/family_four_doors/200- - 9_hyundai_genesis_4_6_short_take_road_test
Sorry, that doesn't sound even remotely like the Avalon's suspension to me.
The Genesis is a superior car to the mundane looking Toyota Avalon, only one area being the suspension. Yikes, Americans are so slow to acknowledging facts its both silliness and goofiness to the 50th power.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I call that the "perception-reality lag". Most car buyers are too lazy to do the research, so they follow the herd to be on the safe side. Car makers know that, and make a killing off of it.
If anything, the way Americans have accepted the quality gains of Hyundai over the past decade shows many are able to be objective.
V8 model cars went out for allocation today. Each dealer has 1 available to them as of now. If some dealers turn down their cars and other dealers "over-order" what is actually available then the extra cars will then go to the dealers that "asked" for them.
These cars should be arriving at the end of August or the first of September. This is about a month ahead of the October date that was given at the start.
I say that even though, in my opinion, Hyundai has, over the past twenty years, been doing all the right stuff and the hard work necessary to bring their product mix up to the level of Honda and Toyota.
The problem is that IMO any new luxury marque, today, must enter with a green component. Superior handling and power together with luxurious appointments plus reliability (toyota) or engine technology (honda) or awd (Nissan I think) were keynotes for those three companies in their time. Hyundai need to be introducing fuel efficiency as a dominant theme in any new marque as a differentiator. This vehicle could be viewed by some outsiders as just a copycat V6 also-ran entering into a fading market where boosted I4's and hybrids abound and therefore likely to be seen as a 'Phaeton' - Korean style.
Other than bad timing the Genesis, from reading the posts, seems a worthy competitor to the Avalon. Those with a good experience with Hyundai now have opportunity to exhibit brand loyalty when moving upmarket. The trouble is when you're in the Toyota dealership doing some comparitive shopping on the Avalon you're going to see the Camry Hybrid. And the Genesis aside, I would wonder how many Avalon sales are being lost right now to an upscale Camry Hybrid in the same showroom.
While no one would dispute that these are not desirable cars, just wait a few years until you begin fuelling these V6's with $8 a gallon gas. I think even the rich, besides the not so rich, will soon get tired of doing that.
T2
On the other point, I couldn't disagree with you more about the Genesis simply seems to be a worthy competitor to the Avalon. The Azera is a worthy competitor to the Avalon. Don't get me wrong, the Avalon is a great FWD large comfortable cruiser, but the Genesis is just so much different - drivetrain, for starters. There are reasons why you rarely see reviews between a Charger, for exmaple, to an Avalon, or an Azera, despite all three being in the same class. And if I am not mistaken, there are reasons why in the initial batch of review of the Korean-spec Genesis, the name Avalon never came up. Give me a 300C for comparison, if anything.
Finally, the elephant in the room was recognized by the Hyundai executives. Why didn't Hyundai kick off a premium channel in its model lineup with a truly premium car rather than a luxurious sport sedan, something more in keeping with Lexus rather than Audi? The Hyundai execs gave this possibility serious attention, but concluded it would not only cost the company too much (about $2.5 billion), but it would also put undue stress on the current dealership network. Hyundai estimates that the gains it has taken 13 years for Lexus to enjoy would take something like 20 years for Hyundai to recoup. But it still might happen someday, they admit.
Hyundai considered introducing a premium badge and nixed the idea.
The Genesis is not competing with the Avalon. At least not as far as Hyundai is concerned. Also from the full test article:
Hyundai says of the 2009 Hyundai Genesis V8, "It's the size of the BMW 7 Series with the performance of the 5 Series and at the price of the 3 Series."
Congratulations on your car not having the problem. What was the build date on yours? Maybe I can share your experiences with the Hyundai rep next week as "proof" that the ride in mine is not normal and it can be improved.
Luxury models aren't immune from problems. Do not tell me a Mercedes, for example, is spotless, when historically it has not exactly been shining in such area.
The build date is 11/06............
Yes you are probably correct about listings of suspension problem listings on the forums however basically the same people keep repeating the same thing over and over again giving the impression that it's a major problem. I'm sure these people have a problem and are unhappy and frustrated with this problem but I think it's a small problem for the Azera..... If you check other forums of other car manufactures you will see many many problems.
I just completed a trip to Illinois using I-39 that road is in terrible shape with many pot holes and large cracks in the pavement and my Azera did a good job. My old A6 Audi would have beat me to death on this highway :=)
Have you tried renting 07 Azera to see if you experience the same driving problem ?
Yes, and I'll bet 90% of those are your complaints. The Azera has been a very solid, reliable car.
Before anybody laughs, let's recall the Excel stickered for $4,995 when it arrived.
Even the nay-sayers now think $30 grand is perfectly reasonable for a Hyundai.
I will wait until I test drive the new Genesis before deciding, as an affirmative statement, that they'll be able to sell a mid 30k to 40k (or more?) vehicle, in any significant numbers (unlike some of you).
They so far have failed to derail the Hondas, Nissans or Toyotas from their respective perches in any segment they've gone head to head in, with the possible exception of the surprisingly competitive Elantra (which has yet to withstand the test of long term reliability - it has passed initial quality expectations in spades).
As for your second point, Hyundai's conquest sales is actually really good. Of course it hasn't derailed, but it's coming up fast (sales of Santa Fe, Sonata, Elantra are very good). Hyundai's still trying to establish its nameplate and brand.
Ironically, there are new people complaining about the suspension in their cars on Hyundai-Forums.com
I have looked at forums for other makes and there is no where near the volume of complaints.
I'm not sure why you expect Hyundai to "derail" companies that have a big head-start on them and a much bigger dealer network in the U.S., but Hyundai/Kia is already close to if not exceeding Nissan in WW sales, they are taking market share from those companies (e.g. last month both Elantra and Sonata's sales increased at a greater rate than Honda/Toyota/Nissan in those classes,meaning Hyundai is taking market share), and also the Elantra (and other Hyundais) have demonstrated long-term reliability by indicators such as the CR reliability surveys. Having owned two Elantras over a period of eight years, I can personally attest to its long-term reliability--and that was on the Gen 3, which is an inferior car to the Gen 4.
I know that for some people, Hyundai will never do enough to gain acceptance. Unfortunate for them that they will not have a good alternative to consider, but that's the way it is.