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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Put it this way - VW buyers already had good credit.

    Can't say that for Hyundai buyers, at least not historically.

    It's still just as big a change, IMHO.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Put it this way - VW buyers already had good credit.

    Can't say that for Hyundai buyers, at least not historically.


    What's that supposed to mean? You sound as though you're stuck in the 90's. Hyundai has moved on, and you should too.

    The Genesis is perfectly positioned. A base Genesis will probably cost 2-3K more than the top of the line Azera, a fine car in its own right.

    Genesis... so cheap, even a cave man can buy it. :P
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    And how did that work out for VW in the US? :)

    I'd wager the Genesis out-sell the number of units Phaeton sold a whole year (pick a year) in a month. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Seeing as it will cost less than half and have better customer service than VW (a GAZ dealership in 1950 Stalingrad would have better), I would hope so

    The Genesis looks like more of a Passat than a Phaeton.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What it means is that VW shifted upscale (and yes, failed miserably) a bit before the launch of the Phaeton.

    Hyundai has moved upscale from their previous position, but they're still a mainstream brand. VW was a step above mainstream, some say they still are. Not so for Hyundai.

    The good credit comment was a cheap shot (no harm intended), but what I meant by that was that Hyundai is still selling $10,999 Elantras, and the people that buy those do not likely have the same credit scores as VW customers do.

    If they did, they probably would not be buying such an inexpensive car (without A/C, as discussed earlier) in the first place.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The US sales arm of the German automaker has not produced any results, especially in recent years, in terms of being a step above mainstream. It has had trouble selling anything above and beyond what a mainstream maker brings to the market - Phaeton obviously, but also the Passat W8 during its run. The Touareg SUV has had some success but very limited.

    Perhaps Hyundai is the people's car (brand) in the US, covering from the lower end of the specturm, all the way up 'till the upper limit ;)
  • xhe518xhe518 Member Posts: 107
    I think the VW analogy is valid - both are 'mass market' companies trying to move upmarket..... VW with the Passat, Toureg, Phaeton. Hyundai with the Azera, Veracruz, Genesis.... The difference seems to be that VW tried to leap too far with the Phaeton, all the way up to $70K or whatever exactly it was, versus somewhere in the 40s for the Genesis.

    The Genesis seems like a good value for people who can live without the 'snob' appeal of a luxury badge.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The Genesis should start under 30K, with a loaded version (V8 limited) should not cross the 40K line...
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Hopefully Hyundai's execution with Genesis is as solid as VW's was with Phaeton. Sure, the Phaeton was a sales disaster here in the U.S. but certainly wasn't because there was anything wrong with the car. I was invited by VW of America to take an "extended test drive" of a brand new Phaeton W12 (M.S.R.P. of $100,000!) for an entire weekend. The car was nothing short of magnificent. If the V8 version of Genesis is executed anywhere nearly as well as the Phaeton, it will be a runaway hit.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    ...that you can't sell a $70K+ luxury car with a plebian badge no matter how well it is made. Heck, isn't that what Audi is for? Toyota seems to have enough equity to sell a $36K+ Avalon but you don't see a Toyota LS460. I don't know if Hyundai yet has enough equity to play in the Avalon or lesser Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW leagues.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Toyota seems to have enough equity to sell a $36K+ Avalon but you don't see a Toyota LS460.

    Toyota Crown (not quite as high-end as the LS, though), but they don't sell that one here.
  • xhe518xhe518 Member Posts: 107
    It's an even better deal than I thought, then. I thought it was closer to $40K than $30K
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I don't know if Hyundai yet has enough equity to play in the Avalon or lesser Lexus, Mercedes, or BMW leagues

    People naturally think the Genesis competes directly with the above, but I have a little different take on it. I think there's a large segment of the car buying public that buy the best car they can afford.

    That's why I think Genesis could grab some Accord, Camry, and Altima buyers. People buy those cars because they're reliable, comfortable, affordable cars. But,,, for around 5K more, you can get a true luxury car with a much better warranty in the Genesis.

    In other words, I think many buyers will buy up to the Genesis from the mom car segment instead of buying down from the luxury segment.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not really shopping in that segment, but I would probably compare it to loaded Maximas and Avalons, FWIW.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    :)

    image
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I would probably compare it to loaded Maximas and Avalons, FWIW.

    I think the Genesis is a notch above those cars. They're just cushy versions of the Altima and Camry. Does the Maxima and Avalon even have a V8 option?

    I'll wait for a road test before I make a definite judgment, but I have higher expectations for the Genesis.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    What is the output of the V6s again? I think they're about on par with those two. Maybe a little more from the bigger V6.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No V8s, but they're very powerful V6s, and I bet most Genesis sedans will be V6s as well. Hence the comparison.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    No V8s, but they're very powerful V6s, and I bet most Genesis sedans will be V6s as well. Hence the comparison

    Well, a Yugo had a 4cyl, and so does my Toyota. I don't think they compare. :D

    All kidding aside, I think the Genesis has more sophisticated engines and suspensions than Avalon and Maxima.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Never compare a FWD and RWD, no mater how great the FWD is.

    The Avalon and Maxima are really in the same class as the Azera, Avalon being the more direct competitor.

    264hp on the Azera (s/b bumped up next year with the new generation of engine + increased fuel efficiency); 268hp on the Avalon

    The same engine from the Azera on the Genesis will be good for 290, which is expected to generate the bulk of the delivery.

    The jewel, its V8, will put out 375hp, and giving no grounds, the smaller V6 (3.3L) will have a power rating of 264hp (which is absolutely fantastic)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    One thing, though... in order to get a car from Toyota or Honda that comes close to the RWD Genesis, you must spend much more than $30k. So yes, the Toyota or Honda may have better resale value, but at a much higher up-front cost. In the end, how much money has flowed out of your pocket? No more with the Hyundai than with the Toyota or Honda, and probably less, I'll wager.
  • sassy1866sassy1866 Member Posts: 6
    I think what is lost here is resale value. I think you're (those that posted to Toyota/Honda buyers) are mistaken that they will move over to Hynudai. The reason they buy those cars is because of reliability and resale value. I think the Genesis looks great and can't wait to see it in person. However, for 30k+ I'll put my money on a Honda or Toyota because I feel I'll get a great car and a great return. 30k+ on a Hyundai, not so much. But I'm willing for Hyundai to prove me and others wrong.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    To be fair, Hyundai has gained in just about every category recent years, including resale values. Remember, those things don't come around overnight. How would you know Hyundai has been tracking up? Here is an example, 07 Azera Limited vs. 07 Avalon Limited, roughly 7K upfront cost difference. After some 19K miles (sampled from a Edmunds long-term test of the Azera), depreciation cost for both cars were the virtually the same, and you are still up 7K in savings on the Azera. So if the resale values come in favor of Toyota, which is expected at present time, you'd still have room, with the upfront savings of 7K.

    I never said/implied Toyota/Honda owners should just mosey over to Hyundai. It's their money, they can spend it however they'd want to. That said, if I was saying something to that effect, then I would suggest more consumers putting Hyundai vehicles on their shopping list in the first place, you know, less bias...

    If one was to go from a(n) Camry/Accord/Avalon to a Genesis, it'd really be an upgrade :) To get something close to the Genesis, you'd have to head over to your local Lexus dealer, and spend an additional 15K at least, or an Acura dealer and get a luxury Accord that's not RWD. Of course, the emblem on the car costs you about 5K or more ;)
  • hjc1hjc1 Member Posts: 183
    "I think what is lost here is resale value. I think you're (those that posted to Toyota/Honda buyers) are mistaken that they will move over to Hynudai. The reason they buy those cars is because of reliability and resale value. "

    P.S.
    I did
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For you and me, yes.

    For Joe Consumer, I bet a lot of Avalon buyers don't even know which axle gets power.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    As an old white haired (what's left) guy, one thing I disliked about Avalon is all the old people driving them. They just want more than a Camry or Accord, but can't take the price of a Lexus or Acura, etc. or the reputations of American cars.
    I looked hard at the Avalon, but went with the Azera. Traded in a Camry XLE V6.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8GEz6ioGTI

    Seems like an honest review.

    Bear in mind, however that the V6 and V8 are different animals. So are
    the Asian and US models
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Lukewarm at best.

    Hyundai had better hope for better reviews from other media. I bet their press fleet will be V8s here.

    What's funny is that he would say about 100 words and then they would translate them in to a 5 word sentence. :D
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Interesting review...

    I take it as one man's opinion, though...was he serious about this FR vehicle drives just like FF? Funny how I have yet to find one RWD car, good or bad, having the same driving characteristic as a FWD car. Looks I will have to get behind the wheel of this :) and figure out exactly what made him conclude FR = FF.

    His VDC point doesn't make a lot of sense either. One of the commentators at the link is right - the rear kicked out when VDC was on but he couldn't feel it when VDC was off??

    FWIW, the suspension for the NA spec Genesis is tuned differently. The V8 (which isn't available in the domestic market) also has a different setup. The guy seems a bit cynical about the prices, which to be fair, is a lot more than the forthcoming pricing range in the US, for example. Still, it hasn't stopped the Koreans grabbing one. The Genesis is the top luxury sedan sold so far two months into the new year in the market.

    I can't help but to think the guy probably drove a 3er just before ;) Bottom line, this isn't a pure performance sedan - it's a luxury sport sedan, heavy on the luxury end. Less as a BMW and more as a Lexus is probably a good analogy.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    OK, I've been racking my brain since watching the video this morning and I can't figure it out - what are"FF" and "FR"?
  • jlindhjlindh Member Posts: 282
    Front engine/Front drive, Front engine/ Rear drive.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    can't help but to think the guy probably drove a 3er just before Bottom line, this isn't a pure performance sedan - it's a luxury sport sedan, heavy on the luxury end. Less as a BMW and more as a Lexus is probably a good analogy.

    Agree, not in the trim in which the reviewer drove it.

    However, the USA versions with bigger engines should be tuned much more like a true sport sedan. The version the reviewer drove may be a bump in spring rate away from being a great handling car.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    "Front engine/Front drive, Front engine/ Rear drive."

    Thx!
  • craigmricraigmri Member Posts: 243
    What the heck did that Korean reviewer expect? His test car was a 3.3L! Thats basically the Sonota engine in a bigger car. Clearly like buying a Camry with a 4cyl. Certainly the 3.8L and V8 engine equipped cars will be targeted more for the performance oriented enthusiast. I think that reviewer missed the point of a base engine vehicle.

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure the fleet vehicles for the USA will have the V8. That's the engine all the press will want to sample, plus Hyundai wants to put their best foot forward.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I don't think the reviewer was knocking on Genesis' power, he was not impressed by its handling actually. If the suspension tuning remains the same it really doesn't matter how big the engine is, the handling aspect would probably remain very much the same. As matter of fact, the car might handle better with the smaller engine due to less weight.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    If the suspension tuning remains the same it really doesn't matter how big the engine is,

    True, but it isn't likely to stay the same on USA models, and especially V8's. Higher rate springs and shocks (and tires) make a world of difference in handling, even with a more forward weight distribution.

    A good example of this is aftermarket springs. People that add aftermarket performance springs report their car's personality completely change, at a small sacrifice to ride. Of course, you chalk up some of that to placebo effect. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Keep in mind that a lot of cars are actually softened up for US consumption. Especially in the case of cars from Europe.

    I don't think we should assume the US model will be stiffer.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I think the S. Korean market caters to even softened rides ;)

    Nothing wrong either way, different markets have different perferences.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Hopefully, let's wait and see.

    Hyundai should host one of those ride-and-drive events. They have to get consumers in their cars, to create a buzz.

    Creative marketing is needed. Especially since the auto market overall just sucks right now.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Hyundai should host one of those ride-and-drive events. They have to get consumers in their cars, to create a buzz.

    Creative marketing is needed. Especially since the auto market overall just sucks right now.


    Agreed 100%. Based on some articles I've read, that's exactly what Hyundai USA plans to do:

    We’re going to have a long presell to get people familiar with the idea. We’ll start with some invitation-only rides, where people can drive the car not just at an event, but for up to a week. We will put the car in the hands of opinion leaders, like politicians, journalists and other VIPs. At the same time, we’ll have ride-and-drive events for consumers. In the spring you will start to see teasers, like theater spots, and the print will begin.

    We’re aligning ourselves with Concours d’Elegance [a national tour that presents luxury autos at high-end venues] as a backdrop to a ride-and-drive event. But we’ll also begin to align ourselves with some new brands, which we are figuring out right now. We are going to align ourselves with golf in places that we haven’t been before, and some premium restaurants as well. This is going to be the biggest Hyundai campaign ever, and it’s going to go pretty hard.

    We’ll still have some of the same kind of platforms, of course. The Genesis will have a strong Internet campaign [Hyundaigenesis.com launched earlier this month]. And we’ll broaden our TV buys, including Monday Night Football [on ESPN] and Fox NFL football. We will continue to do our NBA stuff.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So we get higher spring rates and other differentiation.

    That's good, because higher spring rates alone do not mean better handling. I remember when the Mustang Cobra actually had lower spring rates than the Mustang GT, when it first came out.

    Let's see what the US model feels like.
  • eggsnbacongrleggsnbacongrl Member Posts: 3
    The name doesn't sound like a Luxury Vehicle. If it was going to be one they should change the name!
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    Exactly how does the name FX45, TL, RL, MDX, DB9, 911, 914, R8, RS4, M3, M5, M6, STS-V, F430, 599, LS460, or S Class sound more like a 'Luxury Vehicle' than Genesis, which apparently refers to a totally new creation by Hyundai!???!

    How does alpha-numeric gibberish denote luxury??

    At least is wasn’t called a Rabbit, an Escort, a Golf, a Pinto, a Dart, or a Satellite!!
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Based on my experience with my Azera's bouncy/wallowing/uncomfortable ride, I am striking the Genesis off my list of cars to consider in the future. Also striking Hyundai SUV's off the list to replace my Toyota RAV4.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You're assuming the Genesis' suspension will be tuned the same way. Why?

    And what does that have to do with their SUVs, which feel entirely different?

    FWIW, the Santa Fe has the most satisfied owners in its class.
  • mpuzachmpuzach Member Posts: 635
    Have you even driven a Santa Fe or Veracruz? If not, you could be in for a very pleasant surprise.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    An assumption, but based on the Azera, I am doubtful of Hyundai's engineering on all of its vehicles and their ability to hold up over time. If they did not get the Azera right, why should I believe they got the new Santa Fe, Vera Cruz and Genesis right?
    Quite possibly they are doing too much at the same time with too little financial, design and engineerign resources.
    Look at all the complaints on the Hyundai forums.
  • dm126dm126 Member Posts: 14
    Hmmm, Too bad you've decided to exclude the Santa Fe as a possible replacement for your RAV4. My wife and I just bought a Santa Fe about a month ago and our final choice came down to the Santa Fe vs. the new RAV4. The RAV (especially the 6-cylinder) is a great SUV, but the Santa Fe offers so much more for the money. This is the first time I've owned a Hyundai, but I feel confident that it will hold up over time.
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