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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
I say a Saab Viggen hatchback :P (Gremlin's a good one too though :shades: )
Hyundai's 2nd Quarter Profits up 40%
Their world market share rose 5% over the past year,,, "gaining global reputation for quality".
There go the incentives.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
precisely what must happen if Hyundai (or anybody else) is to find a place in the 'luxury' market.
Except for possibly those American branded stalwarts of 'luxury'
Do you know what's even more shocking? There's very little difference in the manufacturing cost of Toyota, Honda, and Hundai cars of a given size and trim level. Yet T&H sell for $3-6K more per unit, which is all profit.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Let Kia be the downmarket player, focus on Hyundai brand to challenge HonToy...
agreed, let Hyundai be the brand where MSRP means something and Kia be the one where it doesn't - even if there is limited product differences. A 'Hyundai' branded product line competitive to the J3 is certainly in the cards if Hyundai can continue improve its still somewhat tarnished rep. Competing as a mfgr. of something construed as a 'luxury' brand though is something altogether different, don't you think?
Euros are as brand-conscious as Americans, and the Chinese can be pretty ostentatious too.
A new brand will eventually be a necessity.
I disagree with the entire premise. Hyundai has nothing to hide or be ashamed of. Their cars have been very reliable and solid since 2006. Toyota had something to hide when they spun off the Lexus brand. They were having problems with a foreign sounding name, and living down those tiny little rust buckets they built. Both the Asian names and smaller cars have long been accepted, and Hyundai has been building large cars for years.
Bobad: I understand, but yours is but one man's opinion. Americans are too brand concious and if Hyundai wishes to capture them into the brand they need a new brand, like they say "When in Rome do as the Romans do".
Fin, Europeans from what I see aren't brand concious at all. They still highly remark MB even though so many of them are used for taxi fleets and police cars. Even though diesels had the bad reputation of smoke-machines, they still love diesels. They're highly critical, yes, and have high expectations, they can even be easily disappointed by their own brands.
Toyota sells a lot of Crowns and Harriers (Lexus RX in US) in Asia, the same goes to Nissan Fuga (infiniti M). If Asians are that superficial there's no way those cars would've sold so well. In contrast, Lexus brand wasn't even popular in Asia except in HongKong.
European makes are also huge status symbols in Asia, no matter they might require more work than a local make, and cost much more. Asian consumers are no less superficial than anyone else, and that market too has its preferences. Those cars you mention have status in their model name and market position.
The US market is probably the most openminded of all...and that still won't make some entrants have an easier time. I will agree that Genesis is not a bad choice for a brand name - better than Equus. I suspect double "u" words aren't naturally suited for car names.
That was true in the 80's, but that was a long time ago. Things have changed. People accept and trust Asian names, thanks to Honda and Toyota. People accepted long ago that the makers of dinky little cars can also make large, reliable, elegant cars. Hyundai would be very smart to upgrade their products and dealers, and not do the 1980's thing. The prestige market is just too small, and too meaningless in the grand scheme of things to spend billions spinning off a new division. The Genesis can sell a lot of Sonatas and Azeras if Hyundai plays their cards right.
I think you are way way off base her - first consumers have a lot longer memory than a lousy 4 years (your number) of making arguably better cars will remedy. Hyundai, perhaps unfairly, is still identified as a manufacturer of 'cheap' Excel like cars. Products like the Excel (there were others) of the middle late 80s and into the 90s are indeed something to be ashamed of. Hyundai continues to live products like this down today, every time they find themselves selling cars at a severely discounted price, and/or with lengthy warranties. Will this change, it should, but it will take a lot more than 4 years, regardless of how much better you think their products have gotten in that short period of a time.
Secondly Toyota back in the middle late 80s was perceived as (and still is perceived as ) a premium brand - a good part of the reason that the LS was such a smashing success was because it was identified as a Toyota product. And Toyota wasn't the only one, Honda had earned a similar reputation and successfully, of course, introduced Acura a few years earlier than Toyota did Lexus. Any problems they had with 'a foreign sounding name' were addressed 10-15 years (not 4 years) earlier than that with the relative quality of their products - well back into the 70s.
I think there is a very definite perception that a 'Japanese' car is better built/less troublesome than most others, an opinion I don't believe you find very often with 'Korean' cars specifically.
But, if you mean that the consumer is less likely to dismiss the 'foreign' Asian product simply for what it is - I agree. It will be interesting though, to see what happens to the industry price leaders with the upcoming invasions from India and China - they will have to sell quality over price, much like the J3 have been doing for a number of years now.
been there (HK) as well, and yes a lot of RRs and MBs - as taxicabs. As it relates to this topic - all goes to show that what is or is not 'luxury' has a lot to do with perceptions and often less to do with the vehicles themselves.. Hyundai might indeed have the 'right' vehicles in things like the Gen sedan and\/or the Equus, but still be a long long way from any common acceptance of 'luxury'.
To once again bring up that often cited example, VW found no acceptance as a luxury mfgr. even though its entrant, the Phaeton, actually outluxed many vehicles that generally defined the term.
You completely and repeatedly ignore the fact that Toyota and Honda have paved the way for Hyundai. They created a template for success, and gave it to the world on a silver platter. All Hyundai has to do is keep following it. You may not like it, and it may not be fair, but it doesn't change the fact that Hyundai is making very good cars.
In a way, they're probably happy to have all this controversy, luxury car buyers talking about their cars.
If it were a new luxury brand, and lost a bunch of comparos to similarly priced (or close) German and Japanese luxury cars, noone would be talking.
I say similarly priced because it would cost a bunch to launch a whole new brand, eroding the value equation.
At a bargain price, reviews are shocked at how competent the car actually is, hence the controversy, and all the hype surrounding it. JDP says it was a flawless new vehicle launch.
Deny? Is that a pejorative? I thought we were friends here?
All seriousness aside, I'm not denying anything. I'm making a statement that it would be foolish, expensive, and deceitful for Hyundai to do the tired old 80's thing. It makes no sense after the mid 90's. It especially makes no sense for Hyundai, because they have already released 3 or 4 luxury/upscale vehicles. Apparently Hyundai agrees with me. Their reputation and sales are going up, so who can argue?
Frankly, I think it's condescending to change the name of a Toyota to Lexus (or whatever). Do they really think people can't read? Do they really think people would rather pay extra to cover advertising and dealership costs for what amounts to the same car? Who is to say if the badge was "Toyota Lexus" that it wouldn't have sold the same number of cars?
Infiniti, not so much...
If Toyota wouldn't have spun off a division, I think the Lexus would still have sold the same number of cars. That's because it's a great car. The cream always rises to the top. The new Hyundai's are fine, and people are catching on quick as they always do. Why go through an immense, expensive and risky marketing exercise to deceive people?
I don't believe that for a minute - the Lexus dealer and those grandiose dealerships that were built at the time also redefined what the 'luxury' dealer should be at the time so much so that they forced those nasty Germans into some upgrades they probably would not have done otherwise. Part of the whole Lexus mystique, then and now, is the dealer experience before and after the sale.
So if Hyundai is following on a road paved by Toyota and Honda as you say then why don't they get on it! Meaning a new Genesis brandname and new Genesis dealers unrelated to those bargain basement Hyundai dealers? It seems to me that they are doing everything they can to make sure the Genesis fails! Would be a shame, wouldn't it?
You would be utterly delighted if Hyundai failed, wouldn't you?
What dog do you have in this hunt, anyway? I KNOW you're not in the least interested in a Hyundai. So why are you here? To defend your precious Toyota's honor, or just to troll and agitate the rest of us who are genuinely interested in the Genesis?
You better be good. If you don't, I think when you die, Satan will make you drive a Hyundai for all eternity. And not a cushy, climate controlled Genesis either!
I see Hyundai in the next couple of years first setting up separate showrooms attached to current Hyundai campuses for the Genesis brand. Kind of like what BMW did with MINI.
Reminds me of the complaints seen on general GM threads when someone dared to give criticism to the home team...
Bobad, this is a good point, and I agree. It's a sad truth though that Americans are still that brand concious. Like you said, we're not stupid, we can read and we can see under the badge. Problem is, the majority of the American public so far choose to ignore this reality (don't get me wrong, they're aware) in the name of image. Otherwise there's no way Lexus would've sold so many ES when it's not much more than a souped up Camry. Superficial, I dare say.
If you've been in asian countries for a while you'll see lexus RX roaming everywhere under the name Toyota Harrier, an example of just how superficial American market is.
Or when Toy introduced the Lexus brand in Japan, leading asian media to:
1. (instead of applauding) question why does Toy need to have this brand in homemarket Japan?
2. Reach assumption that this step was tied to Toyota's falling reputation in Asia.
See the difference with Americans?
you really don't read my posts, do you? As I have said often, the Genesis is a viable choice in the near lux large sedan category and a decent effort on Hyundai's part to improve its rep. My comments have always been around discussing what that rep actually is, and how it might effect how Hyundai has chosen to market the car. Without a doubt - if the Genesis does fail, it would be the loss of a good choice for all of us.
However, if all you can handle is 'warm and fuzzies' about a certain Korean car manufacturer then you need to ignore anything I say. Shouldn't be too difficult...
PS If I am destined for Hades, then I think Satan's car of choice would be something like a late 80s Excel, the mid 90s Scoupe, and/or that signature Hyundai of all time, the Iguana - all cars that you seem to think that the carbuyers should forget - based on some perceived massive improvement in the last 3 or 4 years or so.. Yes, my memory (and I think a lot of others) is longer than 3 years!
yes it is, and the primary reason why there ultimately can not be any room for Hyundai in the 'luxury' market - not with baggage associated with that particular brand name.
I could see a valid correlation between a late Lexus launch in Japan, and falling Toyota reputation. If the name had been launched there in 1990, maybe not. The name was introduced to Europe long ago, and it still isn't embraced there...no lack of brand consciousness on the continent, rather just a product seen as dull.
No market isn't "brand conscious". People who spend more want some kind of differentiation.
Hyundai will challenge Toyota in sales some day, maybe sooner than you think. Would be a shame, wouldn't it?
no it wouldn't - if Hyundai does such a thing they will have earned it with products that deserve it!
Hyundai is doing relatively well right now but on the horizon we have the mfgrs from China and India which are sure to blow away the Koreans in terms of price/value. Hyundai will eventually be forced to compete, much like the Japanese do, primarily on the basis of product quality (as opposed to price). Don't know which will come first - Hyundai picking up market share because their products do match Japan's perceived quality at a better price OR they start to lose market share because they are priced too high - a contradiction if there ever was one...
Surely you're thinking of the LS.
But dig a little deeper - could they really sell an ES right next to a Camry for a lot more money without the fancy showrooms and Lexus service? Buyers can be very shallow, badge snobs. My wife has an aunt that calls her car "The Lexus" and seems to raise her nose up in the air, expected me to ooh and aah about it. It's rather comical - we're talking about an ES330. Whoop-de-doo.
I don't think so.
The Genesis isn't a dressed up clone, so that sort of doesn't apply in this case.
The LS is a fantastic car, no way it can miss. No matter what badge it wears, if you drive it, you immediately know it's a great car.
Same with Genesis. Many people that drive the car are blown away, and get an impulse to buy it.
The most important thing for Hyundai to do now is clean up their dealerships. People that spend $40K want premium service, and really do deserve it. Should they improve only their Genesis service and ignore the rest of the line? No! If they give Sonata owners excellent service, they won't have any qualms about trading up on a Genesis.
Alas, I think dealers are getting out of the service business. That's because cars are traded in at at 4 years, and they need practically no service within that time. The used car buyers are the ones that use service, and the dealers feel little loyalty to used car buyers.
And they don't want to shop at the same place either. A 'luxury' car dealer selling $10k+ Accents is a contradiction in terms
well if they do then they will lose a good portion of any money they make. They barely make enough money selling cars new to be able to pay your salesman a lousy $100/car and still have enough to cover the light bill. And this would be why they 'give away' things like oil changes so they can get your car in their grimey little hands to find anything they 'need' to fix - warranty or not!
Besides which, older cars don't tend to go back to dealer service depts. anyway - too expensive and usually the better and more trustworthy mechanics are independents, in any case..
when your wife's aunt calls her car 'the Hyundai' and expects that same sort of recognition she apparently does with 'the Lexus' - THAT is when we will know that Hyundai has found a place in the luxury market.