Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    Is the Genesis engine not new, at least the V8? LED lights can be fitted for not a lot, and the rest is pretty much ancillary gadgets, few buy a car just for them. I don't see it as a revolutionary leap.

    The greenhouse on the Equus images I have seen is directly related to the Azera - one of the blandest cars on the market. This needs to change.

    VW was arrogant for the Phaeton, but people continue to snap most of their products up, even with the appalling reliability record. That arrogance seems to have faded into history already.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    at least according to the 05-09 MT, the Genesis coupe finishes a distant third in all objective categories including handling, acceleration and the like against those abovementioned paragons of the 'luxury' automobile ;) , the 370Z and the Mustang GT!
    Of course the Coupe was marginally cheaper ($30k vs. $32k vs. $38k) but is this really the arena that Hyundai wants to compete in if 'Genesis' is supposed to become a 'luxury ' brand?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    It will be a higher version of the V8. Think of the whole Equus/Genesis comparo as S class vs. E class, in terms of technology.

    VW overall has not really done well here in the US in the last decade or so, let alone a product like the Phaeton, which failed miserably (not on the product side but on VW's strategy marketing the car).

    By the way, didn't a few of the posters here argued the Genesis would fail just like the Phaeton... :P
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Based on your post, I take it you haven't driven the Genesis Coupe yet...

    This is a very very good first effort for Hyundai in the RWD sports car class. No, it's not class leading but it's a darn good and exciting coupe. Both the Z and the GT are excellent coupes as well, but it was expected the Z would be faster, given its less weight and two seats less, and the Mustang GT as well, with the amount of torque from its V8 engine.

    As automakers such as Toyota and Honda moves into an all-mundane lineup, thank Hyundai and the remaining few continue to cater to the enthusiast crowd.
    Hyundai has on its hand an affordable RWD sports coupe (and much anticipated upcoming R Spec), as well as the only coupe in the class with a turbo engine (much the likes of the tuner crowd)

    Kudos to Hyundai!!
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    So it's just a version of an existing engine? The S sells because of size and prestige rather than mere gadgets.

    VW seems to be selling just about everything it makes. I don't see the market rejecting anything en masse...maybe the rebadged minivans.

    I think the step up from a Passat to a Phaeton was much larger than a Sonata or Azera to a Genesis. And although the Genesis seems to be a fine car...are there waiting lists or anything like that for them?
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    What are you talking about? The same way the S Class one ups the E Class in the model matrix is the same way the Equus is one class up the Genesis. You really can't see how the Equus is better than the Genesis?

    The US market has not been very kind to VW in terms of high priced product (ie. Passat W8, Phaeton). Isn't that what we are talking about here - a non-luxury marque with high priced product? On the other hand, it seems the US market has accepted the Genesis reasonably well so far. Even the mainstream products of VW in the US, the generaly public has not been receptive because they do not view VW as a nameplate higher than other competing brands such as Hyundai, Toyota, Honda, despite the higher prices on the sticker of VW products.

    "I think the step up from a Passat to a Phaeton was much larger than a Sonata or Azera to a Genesis."

    Hence Hyundai's model matrix makes sense, unlike VW's approach.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    What are you talking about, yourself? From what I have seen of the Equus, I don't see it jumping up from the Genesis like the E does from the S.

    VW has erred in the higher end, especially when placing a weird engine in an otherwise normal car. But overall, the brand is not failing. A loaded CC approaches the prices of a highline Genesis, and those don't seem to be drawing any ire.

    Hyundai's incremental approach is more reasonable than VWs old big jump plan, yeah. But if the increments are too small, models appear to be surplus.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think they want to be a luxury brand, they are just trying to go slightly upscale to create separation from their sister brand Kia.

    Even you can't deny that has worked.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I take it you haven't checked out an Equus yet. I have had the opportunity to sit in one and trust me, the differences can be easily seen as soon as you step closer to the car.

    If I am not mistaken, a loaded CC is actually priced higher than a loaded V8 Genesis. Much like the Genesis and most other vehicles, much of the CC sales come from its 4 cyclinder sales, and espeically with a lease of $299/month (for comparison, the Genesis has a special lease of $399/month - irony :P ), thus very little stir, if any, so far.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    If the idea is to separate Hyundai/Genesis from lowly (but often mechanically quite similar) Kia - then sure it is working. But going 'slightly' upscale is a long way from any presence in the luxury end of things.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    This is a very very good first effort for Hyundai in the RWD sports car class
    I guess this must be the official 'H' boy attitude because it sure isn't what the mags are saying about it. Something not even competitive with the antiquated Mustang - wow - talk about unbridled excitement! Thanks anyway, but I'd rather spend a few extra dollars on that Z, or even better, on the '10 Camaro.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Then maybe you should check out the latest Car and Driver comparo of the Genesis Coupe 3.8 and the '10 Camaro V6.

    Genesis vs Camaro

    This sporty coupe is direct and visceral, the first Korean car to get our blood pumping. It’s a little rough around the edges, but Hyundai has a habit of catching up. Fast.

    Seems like they like it a little better than you seem to. ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Really? What mags have you been reading? The oldies? Go to any credible reviews and you would find the praise for the Genesis Coupe. Is it world-class? No. But a turbo 4 for 22K, a V6 for 25K, a R Spec for 23K? Sign me up.

    More importantly, have you driven the Genesis Coupe yet?
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    I've seen images online, and that video posted here. Doesn't strike me as a significant jump from a Genesis, and the styling is almost invisible.

    The thing is going to need a heavy renovation in the styling department to actually have a chance. Maybe it can ape the fakey BMW-esque C-pillar kink of the Genesis and actually develop a styling theme for the brand.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The thing is going to need a heavy renovation in the styling department to actually have a chance.

    And cars in the class are beauty queens? People buy cars for more than just styling. Styling also happen to be quite subjective.

    On the other hand, Equus/Azera comparo - you are still the first person I've come across to bring up these two...

    image

    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    When you're a new entrant, you handicap yourself by being bland. Of course, you can also handicap yourself by being ugly - like the Optima.

    Look at the greenhouse and the rear quarters. One is just a bigger version of the other.

    I am sure I am the first person you have encountered who would say that....swoopy H fanboys don't like to question the company of devotion :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    yeah, quite old and uncreditable, as I said in my original post - May 09 MT :confuse:
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    You keep making derogatory remarks about Genesis styling, but your opinion is in the minority, by far. Genesis owners are getting many inquiries and compliments on the car.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Captain,

    OK, we know how you feel based on your reference to the 5/09 MT comparo, what are your thoughts on the 6/09 Car and Driver test I referenced a few posts back? Inquiring minds want to know. ;)
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    I never said it was ugly, just derivative. Actually it's not bad at all, other than the weird grille. However, I do say it is very derivative, and anyone who examines automotive styling would agree.

    I am sure Genesis owners have to get a firehose to repel the throngs who approach them wondering what that amazing looking car could be, and what they would have to do to buy one today! ;)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    One is just a bigger version of the other.

    If you are so convinced the Equus is just a larger Azera based on some photos, then have it your way...
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    As I've already stated, the Genesis Coupe isn't perfect nor world class, there are things that can be improved. That said, and I will say it again, this is a very good, solid first effort, much like the Genesis sedan. I believe the majority here would agree with me, and so would the people in the auto industry, especially those having driven the Genesis Coupe.

    I was not surprised to see the results when compared to the Mustang GT and 370Z. Again, as I stated earlier, you are comparing it to a two seater and a car with a V8 punching out a ton of torque. All of these cars are very good entrants.

    IL and PM both have compared the Genesis Coupe to the G37, and I invite you to read those. Also, tenpin288 posted the GC vs. Camaro. There are also a ton of Genesis stand-alone review, and those are just some examples that support the point the Genesis is a very solid first effort (which somehow you disagreed with such point and claimed fanboism :sick: )
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    I am convinced the styling looks like nothing more than a large Azera. I am sure it has endless technical difference from that car, but styling wise, the greenhouse says enough for me.
  • minivanguyminivanguy Member Posts: 85
    I guess the rear quarter windows look alike on both the Azera and Equus :surprise: . Other than that I can see no resemblance. The back of the Azera do look like the old Honda Accords though. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I saw one in person at the NY Auto Show, and up on the stand it looked like a million bucks.

    There were crowds checking it out, even though it was closed up. There is definite interest and curiosity for it, at least.

    I think the naming of the new coupe is rather curious (perhaps even a mistake?), but it will help bring new buyers to Hyundai, the same way the Integra helped Acura in the early days.

    Integra wasn't a luxury car, but it still worked.

    Here's a history of Hyundai's approach:

    1980s: attract customers based on price alone
    1990s: focus on value and start building competent cars, warranty to grab attention
    2000s: stretch the value concept to upscale price segments and sport compacts

    Acquiring Kia was key because they can occupy Hyundai's old slot from the 90s.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    What are you talking about? The same way the S Class one ups the E Class in the model matrix is the same way the Equus is one class up the Genesis.

    I'm not sure I agree. I think Equus-Genesis is more like a move from Lexus ES to GS.

    VW Paheton and Passat W8 may be failures. The former due to the company getting arrogant and overestimate it's image, and the latter for putting a ridiculous engine that's weird, problematic, and tough to fix. Instead of looking at Passat, how about using Touareg for comparison instead? A success.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    I'm not sure I agree. I think Equus-Genesis is more like a move from Lexus ES to GS.

    I was just using the S/E class as an example - one is higher than the other in the model matrix. I was not referring to the four cars are are on equal grounds, if you were interpreting as such.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    More importantly, have you driven the Genesis Coupe yet?

    I have, back to back, and I'm really satisfied. It's placed in the right class, fighting with the right cards.

    I admit the looks can still improve, but the handling and interior are awesome. Considering the price, the only decent contenders are Camaro and Mustang ( the only others are Altima, Accord and Camry coupe = bleak). Mustang v6 = trash IMO. So far I agree with C&D only Camaro can actually beat gen coupe.

    If Hyundai place Gen coupe to fight Nissan Z or Mazda RX8, that's a different story and I'd be harsher with my comments.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Oh, sorry then, my mistake.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    That said, and I will say it again, this is a very good, solid first effort, much like the Genesis sedan. I believe the majority here would agree with me
    Including me - believe or not. The Genesis coupe appears to be perfectly fine rice rocket - but in itself it is not as a remarkable achievement as the sedan is and for what it actually is (and priced as it is) it will do nothing to help Hyundai's efforts to make Genesis a 'luxury' brand. If this is what Hyundai is trying to do ( and I'm not so sure they are) then the Coupe ought to be a Hyundai NOT A GENESIS. The Equus OTH, a different story.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    So far I agree with C&D only Camaro can actually beat gen coupe.

    If you look at C/D's evaluation, you'll notice that the only thing the Camaro "beat" the Genesis coupe on is "Gotta have it", which is a totally subjective (and I think ridiculous) criterion. If the editors had given the Camaro one less point there and the Genesis one more point, the Genesis would have won the comparo. The Genesis beat out the Camaro in the scoring categories related to the actual features and performance of the cars themselves.

    C/D also understated the price of the Camaro on the cover of the mag by several thousand dollars. Typo? I wonder...

    These two things lead me to believe that C/D had a particular car in mind for the winner of the comparo before it began. :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    'Gotta have it' is a sad but true phenomenon that can largely dictate how well a car succeeds. It is also a thing that the Hyundai brand has always had a problem with though. I can see folks lined up to order and/or get a look at the new Camaro but not so with any Hyundai product. As bad as Chevy's and GM's reputations might be, the Camaro of course remains a 'signature' icon - Hyundai has no such product.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Greatest problem Hyundai will have with trying to breach the luxury market is their poor national customer service. They are too quick to close cases or deny problems. Of course, part of that is the number of problems that surface with their cars as they age due to poor design and quality control.
    Interestingly my dealer is trying to solve my latest problem even though Hyundai Corp. is resisting it.
    Very few dealers of any kind provide loaners unless it takes overnight. My dealer did provide me with a rental when the computer died while trying to reprogram it. Had to leave it overnight for it to "reset." Had to insist though to get it.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes, the Camaro is such a "gotta have" that it disappeared from the marketplace for, how many years? Not as much an icon as one might think, at least not a sustainable one in the marketplace. The Genesis coupe? On that we shall have to see.

    I did see many dozens of people "lined up" to see the Genesis sedan and coupe at my local auto show in March. Also noticed several folks oohing and aahing over a silver Genesis sedan parked, strategically, right next to the registration counter for a $5000-off--any-new-car giveaway. Not bad for a car that has been on the market for less than a year. The Camaro nameplate has been out there for over four decades--it should have built a following by now.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    If you look at C/D's evaluation, you'll notice that the only thing the Camaro "beat" the Genesis coupe on is "Gotta have it", which is a totally subjective (and I think ridiculous) criterion.

    I somewhat agree, the gotta have it factor affects me as well, guilty as charged :blush:

    I never drove the Camaro, only sat in one and I thought the materials are slightly better but the ergonomics are blah... plus the paintjob seemed particularly thin and frail...

    Plus considering the price gap, and the fact that I've signed a petition that says "No more GM and Chrysler cars until bailout is retruned", I'll sign for the Gen coupe if I have to choose :shades:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Yes, the Camaro is such a "gotta have" that it disappeared from the marketplace for, how many years
    very astute observation :confuse: - sure the Camaro for 20 years (or more) was something less than desireable - as most cars of that time were. It does not, however, change the fact that it still is a car with a favorable legacy. You avoid my point, of course, name any Hyundai vehicle ever produced that has any sort of legacy (that is favorable ;) ) The Genesis sedan may be the first Hyundai car ever that even has that possibility - only time will tell.
    Any Hyundai for $5k off at an auto show? Even an Accent? No wonder that their sales aren't hurting as bad as most the others, and the resale values tend to be so rotten - they continue to BUY all the business they can.
    As it relates to the topic of this particular forum, if Hyundai is ever to find a place as any kind of luxury mfgr., that insane discounting will have to slow down - true luxury cars sell because of content, quality, and perceived value - not because of how cheap they ultimately become! The Hyundai customer may never be able to understand that.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You didn't read my post. The Genesis sedan was sitting next to the registration counter for a $5000-off-ANY-new-car drawing at the auto show. One winner per day, you can apply the $5000 to any car you choose (no, I didn't win). You are so eager to leap to negative conclusions about Hyundai that you don't take time to read and understand what people are saying here. Hyundai didn't even ante up the prize money--it was sponsored by the auto show. But Hyundai was astute enough to put one of its flagship cars at the one spot (and it was also 20 feet from the ticket booths) where almost everyone who attended the auto show would be sure to stop and linger for a few minutes--to fill out the form for the $5000 prize. I guess they don't get any credit from you for that nifty marketing move, either.

    As for favorable legacy... how long does that have to be? Hyundai has only been in the U.S. since 1986. The Elantra and Santa Fe, for two, have a solid legacy since late 2000. Not long compared to brands like Chevy that have been around forever, but a start.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    C/D had a particular car in mind for the winner of the comparo before it began

    I'm about 80% accurate in picking the finishing order in any C&D comparo before I read it. They are *very* predictable. Start by putting BMW in first place if it's a luxury comparo or Honda in 1st if it's in the economy class.

    Plus, you may as well replace "Gotta Have It" with "Flavor of the Month". The Camaro is hot now, just like the Mustang was hot when it was updated...for a year or so. Then you need special editions to maintain interest (Bullitt, GT350, GT500). Interest in those never lasts long.

    the Coupe ought to be a Hyundai

    Probably so, ditch the Genesis name.

    I can see folks lined up to order and/or get a look at the new Camaro but not so with any Hyundai product

    At the car show there were plenty of people gawking at the Equus. backy noticed the same thing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They like it, and my favorite part is this:

    "I'm having a hard time finding things that are wrong with it, really."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sz3L6wA1bY&feature=channel

    At the end he says he'd buy it no matter whether it was called an Oldsmobile or a Yugo.

    Pretty humorous. I like that he admitted his bias against it yet could find nothing wrong.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    If you look at C/D's evaluation, you'll notice that the only thing the Camaro "beat" the Genesis coupe on is "Gotta have it", which is a totally subjective (and I think ridiculous) criterion. If the editors had given the Camaro one less point there and the Genesis one more point, the Genesis would have won the comparo. The Genesis beat out the Camaro in the scoring categories related to the actual features and performance of the cars themselves.

    C/D also understated the price of the Camaro on the cover of the mag by several thousand dollars. Typo? I wonder...

    These two things lead me to believe that C/D had a particular car in mind for the winner of the comparo before it began. :P


    Agreed. Also, I thought it was strange C/D only scored a 5 for the Genesis on the ride category, and a 9 for the Camaro. Really? That was a little fishy, I thought.

    At the end of the day, the overall score was 203 Camaro and 202 for the Genesis, maybe a coincidence, maybe not...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Also, I thought it was strange C/D only scored a 5 for the Genesis on the ride category, and a 9 for the Camaro.

    That was one part of the review that made sense to me. They did note the firm ride of the Genesis coupe compared to that of the Camaro.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    The ride of both vehicles weren't spectacular, and that was somewhat expected, but certainly, I did not feel the ride of the GC was so far off from Camaro's it warranted such a low score. I understand the test car was a Track model, so trade-off was in the cards, but still...

    Overall, there were parts of the review that begged for questions; while others hit the points on the head. Bottom line, two excellent sport coupes each with their own merits and drawbacks - Camaro has the got-to-have-it edge (per C/D); the Genesis Coupe maintains as a more fun-to-drive car ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Cars.com's review of the Camaro also complimented its ride (superior to the Mustang and Challenger in their opinion), so that's consistent with other reviews at least.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Greenhouse?? Just because you might like to look through slots rather than windows is no reason to condemn those of us who want to see out without twisting and turning etc as you might have to do in some vehicles. I think that windows any smaller than those seen here should not be allowed, because of restricted vision of the road. Try looking out of the Chrysler products. Is that what you want?? Of course we are all entitled to our opinion, and this is mine.
    van
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,607
    "Greenhouse" is the accepted term for the area of the car above the beltline, that contains the glass and A-B-C pillars etc. The term makes no value judgement about the size of the windows.

    I too prefer larger windows over the tank-like slits that have come into fashion.
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Thanks for that info, it shows me how far out of sinc I am with the rest of the world.
    van
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    LOL not me. I don't care about the size of the window areas, each has his/her own tastes. However if accidents and visibility are the reasons to say it shouldn;t be allowed, I say if they can't drive properly with those, err slits, shouldn't be allowed to drive at all, because that simply means they don't know how to drive. Just my 2 cents.
  • fourteen14fourteen14 Member Posts: 85
    ""Try looking out of the Chrysler products. Is that what you want?? ""

    If that Chrysler product is a Dodge Magnum, then YES!! The Magnum windows may look short from the outside, but from the inside for over four years they have worked just fine!
    The low windshield is really nice when traveling West near sundown. Much better than sitting in some of those goldfish bowels out there!!

    .
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