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So the RL, follow-on to the Legend, sold a whopping 186 units in February, and is down over 50% year to date. Yes, looks like both the Legend (RIP in the U.S.) and its successor the RL are highly successful cars--definitely something for Hyundai to emulate.
Or maybe not.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Vigor, OTOH - what the heck were they thinking?
TL has been down quite a bit in recent years, and most of the new car sales, I am sure, are still by way of the old TL
Oh yeah captain, as it was pointed out, Honda Legend = Acura RL; and Acura TL has always been linked to the Honda Accord/Inspire.
By the way, the Vigor got its name because Honda was already selling the car as the Honda Vigor in other countries.
Honda can't manage to do what Infiniti and Lexus have done. In fact, I would say that Hyundai Genesis lineups are better than the Acura lineups. Hyundai Genesis is equal to or better than Acura. I think Honda made mistakes with Acura RL. Also, RL's resale value isn't all that either, surprisingly. You go out to Acura dealerships, how used RL is marked down.
I think TL is a mistake, too. The styling is unique but not in a good way. It's way to polarizing. I like FX or unique looking cars but the TL, MDX, RDX, and Pilot are not good-unique looking cars. It seems that Honda follows the same path of Sony, where the company does what it wants to do: Memory Stick, MiniDisc, ect.. I like Sony's persistence but Sony isn't what it once was.... Hyundai Genesis has RW and has 8 cylinder. Acura/Honda does not have RW or 8 clyinder. If they have V8 and/or RW now, they are new. They now managed to have diesel engine.
Acura/Honda has great interior technology package where everything works well with high technology contents. So, that’s something Honda does better than the most car companies at price.
I think it’s a mistake to compare Acura with Hyundai Genesis because Acura isn’t a success story unless the expectation of Genesis is low.
There are many people who think that Hyundai should have had a separate brand, the “Genesis.” But why? Would people not know the Genesis is the Hyundai’s luxury brand. If so, would they regard the Genesis higher than the Hyundai? Do people not know the Acura is the Honda? Would Genesis’s resale value be higher than the Hyundai. If so, at what cost? How much does a dealership cost, how many dealerships does Genesis need, and would the suppose increase resale value and brand value off set the dealership set up cost? I don’t think Acura dealership experience is any better than Honda dealership experience. I can assume that Genesis and Hyundai dealdership experience wouldn’t be the same. So, that’s something that can be done better. But overall, Genesis dealdership argument has very little merits.
Funny you mention Sony. Every time I think about the ever widening battle between Hyundai and Toyota/Honda/Nissan, I think about the lesson of Sony and Samsung. Koreans are formidable competitors, and I think Hyundai is going to follow Samsung's example and become serious players in every car segment. It's just a matter of time, and they're on the fast track. Genesis is proof that Korea can build nice, competitive, quality cars for less. Genesis is not the end, it just started the snowball rolling.
I agree with you about spinning off Genesis. Back in the day when Toyota spun off Lexus, people were a bit more naive about Asian brands and marketing. Re-naming a car today is almost insulting to the better informed public. Not only that, but Hyundai is proud of their name, and wish to elevate it instead of hide it as Toyota once did.
If there isn't room in the luxury market for Hyundai, they will swing sharp elbows and make room.
I agree about the comparison of Hyundai to Samsung. I remember Samsung being a joke marketing cheapo microwaves and such. Not so funny a joke anymore.
I think Infiniti has had some very nice vehicles - the G35 comes to mind - but they don't sell nor hold value like Lexus does.
I spell Infiniti N-i-s-s-a-n, and I spell lexus "T-o-y-o-t-a
So true. When I was a kid everyone in school wanted a Walkman.
Now every kid wants an iPod, and most don't even know what a Walkman is. They're still sold, in case people here are not aware.
Sony got owned in the portable media player market.
I agree with the Hyundai/Samsung parallel, by the way.
Then I entered the convention center and went towards the ticket booths. Near the ticket booths was the one other place everyone coming to the show would visit: the counter to register for $5000 off any new car purchase (one drawing per day). Even people not attending the show could register for the drawing. Guess what was right next to that counter (and within 20 feet of the ticket booths)? A silver Genesis sedan. So about now I am thinking that Hyundai is the "official sponsor" of the auto show or something like that. (Actually not, but that was my thought.) I could hear people oohing and aahing over the car as I filled out my card for the $5000 (no, I didn't win).
Then I went into the main hall. The show was scaled down from previous years, e.g. just one level of the center instead of two. Also I noticed most of the D3 had minimalist displays, i.e. mostly cars scattered around vs. turntables with attractive spokesmen and, uh, women (always a highlight for me in the past... but I digress), cutaways of vehicles, etc. It was also very sparsely populated in those areas. Ford had an impressive display and was pretty crowded, and some of the foreign companies such as Toyota/Scion, VW, and Audi had some bling and good attendance, but it was clear GM and Chrysler in particular were hurting in multiple ways at the auto show.
Then I went to the Hyundai exhibit. It was in the center of the hall, with a big sign on the wall facing the main entrance, so it was hard to miss. I noticed a few other things too, which were different from prior years:
* The place was PACKED. In past auto shows I could go bowling in the Hyundai exhibit and not risk hitting anyone. It was busier last year than before. But yesterday, it was crawling with people. I had to wait to sign up for the free Hyundai (my choice--a Genesis sedan of course!) they are giving away, even though there were about 10 spots at the counter. I had to wait to sit in almost every car.
* They spent some money on the exhibit. In square footage it was pretty big--bigger than I remembered from past shows. There were three Genesis sedans on turntables or pedestals, including one tricked-out car with humongous wheels and a cutaway car showing off the safety features. There was at least one of every model and two or more of most of them. And they spent the extra dough to have power routed to the cars, so people could check out the power seats, see the displays, hear the Lexicon sound system in the Genesis sedan etc. (Most exhibitors didn't do that--makes it hard to get a feel for the car when most of them have power driver's seats).
In particular I saw lots of people climbing into the Genesis sedans and coupes (they had at least two of each to sit in, plus other sedans for display purposes).
It was clear to me that Hyundai is pulling out all the stops to build on their strong sales of late and continue to grab market share--including in the "luxury" market...or, to avoid 65 posts about whether the Genesis is a "luxury" car--whatever you want to call the market for cars like the Genesis.
Putting everything together that has happened in the past 3-4 years, it appears that we are watching Hyundai as it "arrives" in the mainstream.
Been a while since I posted anything but I see some familiar people so wanted to say hello.
We are on our sixth Hyundai('88 Excel, '92 Scoupe, '98 Sonata, '02 Santa Fe, '07 Santa Fe and we currently own a '08 Veracruz Limited) and I have witnessed a car company go from bargain basement to quality and refined.
I cannot think of a better car company to come out of this recession better than Hyundai and on the other side of it I believe Hyundai will become mainstream. As I say....No one is laughing anymore.
Craig
'08 Veracruz Limited
True,,, who could possibly laugh at current Sonata, Santa Fe, Azera, Vera Cruz, Genesis Sedan, and Genesis Coupe? I'm noticing Hyundai is no longer being left out of car conversations.
Probably of no interest to you, but engine tuners are buzzing about the possibilities of the Genesis Coupe. This young, up-and-coming demographic may someday graduate from hot rods to the Vera Cruz and Genesis Sedan.
Hyundai was very smart to create a nice vehicle for every niche, much like Toyota finally did. If Hyundai has continued success during the economic downturn, maybe they'll revive their efforts to market a Tacoma-sized diesel pickup for my niche! (I'm not impressed with my '08 Tacoma!)
Now there is an interesting thought.
Traffic at the auto show is a very good sign. It means people are interested, they finally care about Hyundai. The super bowl ads seem to have paid off, not to mention there is interesting product to keep the customers around.
Krafcik said the Genesis sedan, which has increased sales every month, will have a record sales month in March."
March Industry Car Sales Looking Bad, but Less so for Hyundai, CEO Says (AutoObserver)
It might certainly have some thing to do with selling many of their cars at the lower end of the price spectrum, a rather innovative and apparently successful ad campaign for their now sweetened up Assurance +, and likely less customer resistance to ther whole Korean thing - finally . Remarkable accomplishments for a company that was in Hyundai's position not that long ago BUT still a long way from being a 'luxury' car mfgr.
Recently read a review of sorts, and saw some pictures of the new generation Taurus, although FWD, it does have a list of standard and optional features and styling that would make it comparable to the Genesis V6 - at even less money.
Does this mean that we should be making a place in the luxury market - for Ford??? :confuse:
Maybe, if Ford came out with a vehicle that they created to intentionally compete with the Lexus GS and Infiniti M and perhaps *gasp* a BMW 7 Series. And then sales took off in a horrible market.
You seem to be a victim and slave to marketing hype.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But yes, a luxury car ' and a 'luxury' brand has an awful lot to do with perceptions and almost nothing about bling which is why I bring up the Taurus example. .Fair or not, these perceptions would be among the main reasons why Ford (and Hyundai and others) will never build a 'luxury' car, Heck not even Ford's own 'luxury' brand makes 'luxury' cars anymore, they have cheapened things up too much, despite a rather hefty price (for what you actually get) and just gobs and gobs or what really doesn't count much - bling.
just some thoughts
True.
Luxury has always been more a state of mind than a state of real quality and features. If someone's mind is weak enough, he can be persuaded that the best appointed, highest quality car is not a luxury car, or vice versa.
Certain people worship exclusivity, and get upset when they think their brand's exclusive status is being threatened. They will say "so and so brand will never be a luxury car", which was said about Audi and Lexus once upon a time. They try to put challengers into a catch 22 situation that will forever exclude them.
Having said that, every car should have to earn its repetition, and re-earn it every model year. Some believe that "once a luxury brand, always a luxury brand". I don't buy that. I think every car should be impartially scrutinized before buying, regardless of brand.
will see more diverse price range of models within its brand.
Nissan GTR cost $75k and it seems out of place in Nissan lineup, but Nissan
chose to have it in Nissan dealership instead of Infiniti. Same with Chevy Corvette,
which cost much more than rest of its lineup.
Hyundai brand may not be a typical luxury brand such as MB or BMW, but Genesis is at least an entry luxury car, which seem to do quite well.
That would make it similar to an Azera, but probably not as nice, or as good a value! The Azera is a fine FWD near-luxury sedan. Few would consider a Ford Taurus as other than a mid-size family sedan, or an airport rental!!
Although there's some awfully nice cars available at rental desks now...
Also, note that Hyundai gives better discount from these initial MRSP figure, and there is cost associated with car loans. Hyundai currently has 2.9% financing for 60 months where as Lexus doesn't. If you were to buy the car at 100% financing for GS 350 at $48,000. The finance cost comes out to be $6,772 at 5.32% for $912.87 a month for 60 payments. [4] For the Genesis, the finance cost will be $3,169.20 at 2.9% for $752.82 a month for 60 payments. This is $3,600 difference.
This whole argument about resale value is just a misnomer and it isn’t a valid measurement of the long term value. These marginal residual (+/-) costs are built into the initial price. If you had BMW 535i with the simliar options, the car’s $57.272 value will drop $26,892 or 46.1% [3] If the $27,000 value drop is said to be good then what kind of "value" holder is that? You can almost get another Genesis with $27,000. You can definately get the new Genesis Coupe. You should go to autotrader.com and find out these used cars prices. Look up the 2008 FX 35. These cars' value drop significantlly.
If you say, you could have purchased a $42,000 GS 350 vs $42,000 Genesis V8, the $42K GS 350 will have higher residual value. That is correct. However, GS 350 would have lower marginal utility quotient with that price. It wouldn't have a gps navigation or some other gadgets. I would think these would be important to the luxury buyers. What kind of luxury car doesn't have the gps navigation at a price of $42,000? One can replace the leather seating with the cloth seating and make GS 350 the $39,000 luxury car? You can just get Avalon.
[1 lexus gs 350 depreciation: http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/lexus/gs350/101077190/cto.html ]
[2 genesis : http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/hyundai/genesis/101008125/cto.html ]
[3 bmw 5 series: http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/bmw/5series/101085265/cto.html ]
[4: This was what was on edmunds.com as "up2drive." ]
Hope everyone and their families have a wonderful Easter!
It is a fact that despite a generally higher initial cost, it is those Hondas, Toyotas, and the like that lead cost to own comparisons year after year notwithstanding any give away program that Hyundai might come up with to reduce prices and pump up sales; remembering, of course, that it is those higher discounts that ultimately hurt any vehicle's residual value. In effect, if Hyundai decides to come up with an Advantage +++ and throw in another 20% discount on the price of the Genesis, while it may make for some happy new buyers, it also screws those that paid something closer to MSRP for the thing simply because resale value is not a misnomer. Residual or resale value will always be related, in some way, to cost new.
And duh, a Genesis of course should be certainly be cheaper to own than a BMW - as it should be. One is a 'luxury' brand, one is not - or more specifically - one is a premium brand the other isn't. Run your comparison on vehicles with about the same MSRP - is the Genesis cheaper to own than something like an Avalon Ltd. or a TL both about the same MSRP - think not.
There is a reason for example why Hondas ,for example, do so well in cost-to-own comparisons - they do not discount their products nearly as much, will 'reprimand' a dealer selling their product too cheaply, and also have a policy against flooding the market with the rental fleets etc.
Relative to this topic, it should be noted that something 'luxury' and something cheap (and/or with And duh, a Genesis of course should be certainly be cheaper to own than a BMW - as it should be. One is a 'luxury' brand, one is not - or more specifically - one is a premium brand the other isn't. Run your comparison on vehicles with about the same MSRP - is the Genesis cheaper to own than something like an Avalon Ltd. or a TL both about the same MSRP - think notbig discounts) are usually contradictions in terms. True luxury marques don't generally sell because of price, they sell because of some real and/or perceived quality, as well as on a bit of brand snobbery. Hyundai will have a helluva time finding room on the luxury side of things as long as folks regard price among Hyundai's prime virtues .
Usually, but go price a used Jaguar.
A friend of mine just test drove an 05 XJ8 LWB, loaded, 40K, 25K asking price - this from a Jag dealer with some big CPO style warranty attached. Seems like a hell of a car for the money, esp as you could probably get it for a couple grand less these days.
I wonder what kind of screaming deal a V8 high option Genesis will be in 3 years.
and
Price is the only common denominator
then, you need to objectively compare the Genesis V6 to the similarily priced ( and well optioned) Maximas, Avalons, Taurus (new model), and even Hyundai's own Azera. the last two of which are substantially cheaper than the Genesis. There are a number of good choices out there in larger sedans that don't cost an arm and a leg. Power, FE, interior size and comfort , available bling, cost to own - take your pick - while the Genesis is undoubtedly a lot of car for the money , it is a long way from 'blowing everything away in its price class'.
As you pointed out the Azera fills that niche already.
Yes, but only in the same price range.
In the $40-$42K price range, Genesis is the only car that offers a V8 with RWD, and that much cabin space. (AFAIK!)
It's all about money. You decide how much money you want to spend, then you get the most size, quality, engineering, safety, and options for that money.
If I go car shopping and have $90K in my pocket, I may find that the 7er fits the bill. If I only have $40-ish in my pocket, the Genesis is hard to argue with.
You see that's the difference - with the true 'luxo' buyer it's NOT all about money. He wants instead many of those other things you mention - in spades - and understands that there is a price for his/her pleasures.
If a $90k pricetag on a 750 or example, is an issue though, I would suggest to you that that same buyer is more likely to 'settle' on a 550 (or even a 535) than he would start shopping over at the Hyundai dealership.
Perhaps this thread would have less controversy if it read "Is There Room in the Near-Luxury Market for Hyundai?"
It's not a Bentley.
+1
Bobad very well said.
Puts this in perspective extremely well. The only thing I will add is "Vehicle (not necessarily car) that excites you and fill your needs for that money"
Last year I test drove
Maxima, Altima Hybrid, Audi A6 FWD, Genesis, TL/RL, MDX, FX35, M35, BMW 528, Camry Hybrid, GS350, RX350/400h, ML and E350 before deciding on MDX..The only common theme is/was they all were 40-45K or less.
Some were very well optioned like Max/TL/RL/Genesis and some were base in the price range (E350)