By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
MSRP of V8 Luxury Sedan: $40,000
MSRP of Luxury Label on the Car and Dealership: $20,000 (or some other large figure)
Of course, in the case of the Genesis sedan, only the first line would show up on the sticker.
M 1,107
GS 595
RL 186
I think it's pretty safe to say Hyundai has been taking away business from competitors such as the above three.
The RL and GS were unloved long before the Genesis hit the roads.
Hyundai can also make the Genesis as luxurious as a Maybach or Rolls-Royce Phantom, but it will still be a Hyundai. They made the fatal error of calling it a Hyundai Genesis. They should've just called the car a Genesis from the start. It would be that Hyundai manufactures it like Toyota manufactures Lexus.
and I think that this could be something else - who says those 1263 sells are coming from those (or any other) three. How do we know, for example, that these sales aren't coming from similarily priced cars - like, for example, higher end Avalons, Maximas or even Hyundai's own Azera (whose sales have been rather dismal lately) . The Avalon and Maxima because the pricing is close (up to maybe $40k) and they are both large 'near lux' 4 door sedans. The Azera because that buyer is already at the Hyundai lot anyway, is obviously 'pro-Hyundai' , and can have that Genesis for what is relatively small premium.
Hyundai, for whatever reason, would obviously like us to think that true lux buyers are flocking down to the local Hyundai lot to buy a Genesis - whether or not that is really the case is something else again.
Show me a whole pile of those 5 year old Lexus/BMW/MB trade-ins filling the Hyundai dealer's used car lots - then I'll know that Hyundai has indeed found a place in tthe luxury market.
a bit of sarcasm? - but still I would be willing to bet you that had Hyundai done their homework and done anything to separate the Genesis from the Hyundai name,( including that mythical Genesis only dealer) that we would be talking about more than 1200 cars sold and that this whole 'lux or near lux' debate might not be happening.
one thing that Toyota (and Lexus) have had a pretty good handle on - the American driver's preference for softer highway cruisers - something that Hyundai apparently is doing a damn good job at, as well. About the only negative comments I ever see about the Genesis are about a 'too soft' suspension. Certainly remains to be seen if this marketing decision is a 'fatal' error or not.
Agree with what you say though - then the only question that remains is the Genesis (as a Genesis) good enough to make folks overlook who builds it? IMO I think the answer to that one could actually be yes - but as you say we will never know.
Higher than the Genesis.
By the way, it wasn't just this past month. This trend has gone on pretty much since the Genesis became available in US showroom last summer.
I don't believe the GS has sold significantly more, either. Both are unloved models.
I know lots of Ms went into the Hertz prestige fleet at one time, so I would want to be sure those numbers were private sales, too.
How much of those numbers are coming down due to economic collapse?
Here's one for you. I can tell you exactly how many Genesis sedans would have been sold to date had Hyundai done what you suggest and started a new brand and dealership network/experience for the cars: zero.
Now, about that Edmunds.com comparo of $30k coupes like the I35i, RX-8, and 370Z with the Genesis...
They should at least have done what Toyota did with Scion - create a sub-brand.
Genesis could have been their upscale Scion, which is still a Toyota, technically, but the public uses the names without saying the Toyota part.
So it could officially be the Hyundai Genesis S 3.8 (for sedan 3.8), something like that, and the literature could just refer to it as the Genesis S 3.8.
The coupe could be the Genesis C 3.8.
Not the most elegant names, but you get the general idea.
Scions are Toyotas, but nobody seems to know. That strategy could serve Hyundai well.
Since the 2006 model year, Hyundai quality and engineering is in the same ballpark as Toyota and Honda, and people are beginning to catch on. Hyundai set a goal to compete with Toyota, and isn't sparing any expense to get there. The Koreans are fierce competitors. 10 years ago, not many people had heard of Samsung. Now, many of their products are preferred to Sony and Toshiba. I have no doubt in my mind that Hyundai's engineering and quality will continue to ratchet up, causing much misery for the Japanese and (to a lesser extent) European car industry. Change is inevitable and normal. Embrace it and enjoy it, because it's beneficial, not evil.
In 5-10 years, China and India will be trying to knock Hyundai off. It will be a titanic battle, as neither like to be outdone. We will be the beneficiaries of the battle, getting better and better cars at still affordable prices.
while I think there is some solid evidence that Hyundai has improved its products recently, I don't believe you can point to anything that would substantiate your claim. CR, for example, who does tend to value reliability stdies etc. very highly came out with a list of 40 recommended cars in their 09 Auto Issue- and the list consisted of almost every Toyota and Honda product made. I believe that the only Hyundai product that made the list was the Elantra. Bang for the buck is one thing - qualities as it effects reliability is something else.
I think you can actually go back a bit further (2002?) if you wish to point to improvements, but that is kinda not the point - as this all relates to this topic. 6 or 7 years is far too short of a time period for the consumer to forget those atrocities that Hyundai foisted on all of us in the early middle 90s. They were called Excels, Scoupes, and other not so complimentary things. The fact that these cars even existed, and Hyundai was the one that was really responsible for the 'Korean' car rep is also another reason why that Hyundai can never (never is a long time
Which CR list of 40 cars are you referring to? There's lots of lists of cars in the 2009 Auto Issue. In the Top Picks (just 10 vehicles), there was one Hyundai, the Elantra; the new Highlander unseated the Santa Fe (a top pick last year). In the "Top 10 in our tests", the Genesis 3.8 was on the list. In the "Lowest Scorers", there were no Hyundais, but there was a Toyota. In the "Best Cars under $20,000", the Elantra was one of them. In CR's "Highs and Lows from the past year of testing", the Genesis sedan was one of the Highs, while the Honda Pilot and Acura TL were two of the Lows. On the "Most Bang for your Buck" list, it included the Elantra, Sonata, and Santa Fe (and might have included the Genesis but it could not be put on the list because CR doesn't have reliability data for it yet).
Overall, CR "recommended" every Hyundai that they could recommend except the Accent (poor crash test scores) and Entourage (below-average predicted reliability). They could not recommend the Genesis sedan or coupe because they don't have reliability data yet. CR did put the Genesis sedan at the top of the Upscale Sedans group, however. The fact that there is an "H" on the back didn't seem to affect CR's ranking.
I think it was more like mid 80s to early 90s. Scoupes were gone by around 1991 or so.
I'm not sure that they are where Honda and Toyota are, but they have advantages as well, like lower costs, and smaller legacy expenses.
Samsung was a good example of a Korean company at the top of their game.
what I guess you fail to understand is that my post is NOT 'anti-Hyundai', it is only a report on what many others (folks that know more about these things than you or I) report. CR will recommend ANY vehicle that is at least average in predicted reliability which is where the majority of Hyundai's products fall - average. It is those nasty 'Japanese' products that still dominate the better than and much better than average ratings. Look it up if you don't believe me.
CRs ordinal rating of '92' for the Genesis is a road test rating that also considers the high bling and value content. It is better at least in that regard (and according to CR) for example than both the TL and the Avalon that received ordinals of 89 and cars that were the previous 'champs'. In that specific regard it is top rated. CR does NOT, however, recommend anything until they get enough stats on a car for at least that 'average' reliability. Several VWs recently have done very well in the road test/ordinal part of CRs testing only to lose that ranking when reliability was considered. The Genesis is NOT recommended by CR right now simply because they don't have enough reliability info on it yet. If it can garner a mere 'average' reliability' score then it will be recommended and truly top rated - as it damn well should.
Yes, CR does have a rather transparent set of priorities that include in no particular order: safety, FE and reliability - but at least they are up front and seemingly objective about it, given that they don't get paid for any of their conclusions. You or I certainly don't have to have the same set of priorities as they do (I don't) but it is hard to argue their conclusions given what those priorities are.
I, for example, would put a lot more value on a car's dynamic capabilities over some sort of nannyesque 'safety' feature, I would also distinguish quality as sometimes being unrelated to reliability. Many of those German sedans have beaucoups of quality and usually beaucoups of dynamic capabilities, but are also less reliable (complication and sophistication has to hurt something other than a pricetag) so therefore not usually 'recommended' by CR.
The truth is out there. Go on the Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai forums and read tens of thousands of posts. That will convince you. See you in 2 years.
right you are - don't know if you are old enough to remember those early Japanese cars of the 60s and even into the very early 70s - every bit as bad as those Hyundais - we did call them '[non-permissible content removed] crap' for a reason. It wasn't until the middle late 80s (about 20 years) that Toyota and Honda (primarily) had turned that around and cars they were making were 'superior' to what Detroit was making. And it wasn't easily done either, I seem to remember 'made in Japan' and anti-Japanese' biases equating it all to the use of cheap plastics and for transisitor radios. The whole Acura/Lexus/Infiniti thing could happen successfully because of this newfound Japanese quality.
The point of the post: How can we realistically expect this to happen for Hyundai, in less time and also without that same reputation as Honda and Toyota enjoyed when they did do the same thing that Hyundai is attempting? :confuse:
in that case, all I ask is some sort of data from someone that will show me that 'Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda' are all in the 'same ballpark' quality wise. I referenced my evidence, do you have any, or do we really need to start talking about how big your ballpark is?
It's been a while since I chimed in. This has been a fascinating discussion lately.
I still do not believe that Hyundai is targeting the typical luxo buyer (whatever that might be). We keep talking about price (it's gotta be some magic level or it ain't luxury), exclusivity, some ambiguous total luxury experience, cookies and coffee in the waiting room, loaners, feature content and comparisons, premium/luxury badges, and on and on. Hyundai is just quietly chuckling to themselves. They have to be loving the buzz.
Hyundai, and their adopted Kia, has always been about bang for the buck. That is what has brought them along so far, and they are not abandoning it now. They had some misfires along the way, but so has every other car maker. They have made a concerted effort to move the brand upscale, and there seems to be general agreement that they have done fairly well in that regard.
So now they compare favorably in ways that seemed inconceivable just a few years ago. Their entire line up does just fine against direct competitors. The Sonata and Azera hold their own against mainstream offerings. The Veracruz gets compared to the RX and does surprisingly well. Now everyone is struggling a bit to figure out what to compare the Genesis to, but Benz, BMW, Audi, Acura, Infinity, and Lexus all get mentioned. It does not matter what any of us personally decide about whether or not the Genesis is "better" than any of those. It does not matter if any of us decide that Hyundai just isn't luxo enough. What matters is that the comparisons are even being contemplated. And Hyundai is loving it. I mean c'mon, just a few years ago it would have been ludicrous to consider a Hyundai a step up from anything.
They considered launching a premium badge, and decided against doing so. Not only would it have been prohibitively expensive, it also just does not fit with their whole marketing reasoning. They built the Genesis to be a hell of a good car at a hell of a good price. Then they scoff at and launch an assault on the thinking that luxury only comes at a certain price point from a select few brands.
Is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai? I don't think Hyundai is too concerned with the answer to that question, but I think they are thrilled that the question was even asked, and they're more than happy to play ball with it. That someone would cross shop and then actually buy a Genesis over a GS or 5 Series is just gravy.
CR will recommend ANY vehicle that is at least average in predicted reliability which is where the majority of Hyundai's products fall - average.
Of the 8 Hyundais for which CR has predicted reliability in their April issue, one is below average, two are average, and five are above average. So the fact is that the majority of Hyundai's products are above average in reliability, according to CR.
Maybe next time you could "look it up" before you post?
I stated in my previous post (twice in fact) that CR doesn't have the Genesis as a recommended car because the reliability data isn't in yet. But it appears you are confused: CR's rankings have nothing to do with their reliability scores. A car can in fact be very highly ranked by CR but have no reliability history, or even a negative reliability history. So in fact the Genesis sedan is already "top rated" by CR. It just isn't one of their "recommended" cars yet.
Also, I wonder why you seem to be quibbling now over how CR ranks cars, since you were the one who brought up CR's rankings a couple of posts ago. Is that because they had the audacity to give the Genesis sedan their top rating for Upscale Sedans? Or maybe because they report that Hyundais in general have better reliability than you wish to give them credit for?
You are free to set your expectations as low as you want. Hyundai obviously has higher aspirations in mind.
And fyi... Hyundai is taking a different approach than Honda and Toyota did. I am amazed you would even suggest they did the same thing Hyundai is attempting, since you are one of the most vocal here in disagreeing with Hyundai's strategy wrt the Genesis.
I personally feel the Sonata is (for me) the best compromise of all-around comfort handling, reliability and value. (My MG does not handle -20 below winters very well, it's not particularly comfortable, and on the reliability scale, well..... But man is it fun to drive!!)
I think I'm like most present owners of a Hyundai--we had/have no knowledge of Hyundais past, nor do we much care....
I've said my piece and now I'm done!
Because Hyundai has a successful model to follow, as I mentioned already. Toyota and Honda didn't. It's true, but I can't prove it.
captain,
There are some very good reasons we can expect this to happen for Hyundai and for that matter, any and all manufacturers of anything out there today. When Honda and Toyota were beginning to build their reputations they did have to battle that provincial/parochial/bigoted mindset that existed then. While that mindset hasn't totally disappeared, it is greatly diminished due to things like globalization, growing tolerance and acceptance other cultures (for the most part), the linkage of people via the Internet, etc.
Another reason for their fast rise compared to the rise of Honyota is the advantage that computerization and robotics gives them now compared to the 60's, 70's and 80's. It used to easily take 5-10 years to begin designing a new car from the old draftsman's drawings to clay models to finished product. That same process can be accomplished in a much shorter time period and with fewer problems and greater consistency of product.
They have also learned from other's successes and failures and have not blindly chosen the past successful paths of others. There are many paths to success, maybe, just maybe, Hyundai is showing us another possible path.
fine, now compare that to how they rate Toyota and Honda products. This was only a comment for a poster that claimed some sort of equality, something plainly not there - yet.
Is that because they had the audacity to give the Genesis sedan their top rating for Upscale Sedans?
isn't at all interesting to you that it is 'Upscale' not 'Luxury' sedans that CR grouped the Genesis with? And that those German and high line Japanese true 'lux' sedans generally scored higher despite the rather large price difference? Do you think that maybe this just might have something to do with the baggage that comes with the 'Hyundai' label and/or the ridiculously low price? Hmmm , maybe that whole seemingly ludricrous contention I've been making that not only is the label wrong but so is the price is not so far off base after all. :confuse:
BTW, Toyota has 3 models that CR rates less than "Above Average" in predicted reliability. Same number as Hyundai.
No, it seems they want to ASK the question. Have you watched any football halftime ads lately? Those ads gotta be costing Hyundai, millions and millions and possibly well out of line with how much money they can make selling the car for $35k or so a copy. . All to try to convince us that there are a whole pile of quite 'worried' Japanese and German car execs.
all true, but somehow ignores the real reason for Toyota/Honda's success, they were building better cars, and somewhat begrudgingly they had to acknowledge it. This is different than what we have with Hyundai's products - not everybody knows it. Perhaps they should if Hyundai is going to try to sell a 'premium' car at what they think is a 'premium' price....
But based on your last post, I am surprised you haven't made the connection between the ads and the need for Hyundai to raise its brand awareness.
It's called getting market penetration. You put a bunch of nice, reliable cars on the road, and people start to notice and shop. And I beg to differ that low prices are ridiculous. I think low prices are great, but I can't prove it.
And Mr Captain sir, everything I write is my opinion unless specifically presented as someone else's data, facts, or opinion. Opinions are neither right nor wrong, but just opinions. You can agree or disagree, but you can not say they are true or untrue.
then why aren't they following it - and building fancy new Genesis dealerships as fastr as they can? And hoping that the Genesis doesn't suffer the same fate as things like the Phaeton and Millenia because they aren't?
I know, I know, it's a good decision because it' so expensive to try to make Genesis a brand, right?
Actually maybe not.
Iif Hyundai had the same rep that Toyota did back in 89 - existing dealers literally would be lined up to pay rather large franchise fees and build never seen before fancy arss buildings/lots, all for the privilege of selling a new brand called 'Lexus' . Contend to you that it didn't cost anymore to bring the LS to us, than Hyundai has spent developing and marketing the Genesis.
Something tells me that if Hyundai had a separate channel for Genesis certain folks would delight in still saying Genesis was nothing but a gussied up Hyundai.
With their success it is a mystery to me why anyone would try to second guess them. It really smacks of sour grapes.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
don't believe you'll find anybody that would argue this
this is probably true and a chance that the J3 took 20 years ago as well. Yet if it is done sucessfully, then somebody like Lexus can get away with selling an optioned out Camry for $40k+. They sell a lot of ESs for reasons that I really don't fully understand, but I guess it does reinforce the importance of a 'badge'. Hyundai did do the right thing IMO, in coming out with the more expensive, heavier optioned and more differentiating Genesis sedan before the Mustang-like and far cheaper Coupe.
I agree with your opinion. Obviously Hyundai's competitors are grievously over priced.
That was all you got from watching the ad?
Despite Hyundai's shopping spree in the Super Bowl and the Oscars, the costs were already in the budget, and ran about the same as the previous period. They simply shifted the focus to big-time events.
And you know what, those ads from both events returned very good results.
PS: I am sure Hyundai would like to thank GM for dropping out of the Oscars as the official automotive sponsor
We all can argue about what luxury is...but primary purpose of EVERY BUSINESS is to make money and in auto industry Hyundai is doing extremely well (under given circumstances)
link title
As pointed out earlier may be this was Hyundai's plan all along.
If and when Equus hits our shores Hyundai advertisements will ask similar questions but this time they will mention (not compare) Equus with real luxury (as oppose to mass luxury) vehicles like Bentley, Maybeck, etc.
We will create buzz.
No one will know what to compare Equus with
Genesis, by then, would have already lifted the brand brand name
Equus just like Genesis (Hyundai) will be a winner.
This is all part of a WELL THOUGHT OUT plan
and its been executed very well.
confess to not paying any attention to ads and am usually irritated by all of them - exercises in 'spins' , and other fantasies. Not something that should influence any intelligent human being's buying decisions IMO. Super Bowl Ads, I think were like a million bucks for a 20 second spot, and Hyundai was a title sponsor to the whole thing. 4 ads that I remember, production costs, and the cost of the title sponsorship, might guess that they may have dropped a cool 10 or 20 million. Just a guess but if that is close - now say they make $5000.00 on every Genesis they sell - it would take as many as 4000 cars sold to recover just what they spent on one Sunday afternoon. Hmm, that's about 3 months of sales- sound like good business decision to you? Beyond me how anybody really can justify spending bunches of money on things like this, and/or how many truly additional sales Hyundai got (or will get) because of them. Now their Assurance Program that is so prominently displayed on the side of my screen here - that should be (and apparently has been ) quite effective - its plays to people's fears.
It's not all about the numbers, or cut and dry like you've put it (sell x units to cover y number of ads), there are many other factors to consider (exposure, intangible, to name a few). Even if the Genesis is sold at a loss here in the US, I wuld think the profit margin from the home market Genesis sales would more than cover.
Again, Hyundai's marketing budget is running about the same as last year, so the cost of the national ads have already been earmarked. They are not spending tons of additional funds as you've somehow implied.
Looking through the full analysis of the ads from the Superbowl and the Oscars, Hyundai came away with great results. Audi as well in both; Toyota not so much (Toyota only participated in the Superbowl).
Oh by the way, the SuperBowl ads were a cool 3 million for a 30 second spot.
The Genesis is such an attractive car that every unit on the road sells more. The car is so nice that many casual test drivers are taken off guard, and the car winds up in their garage. Why wouldn't Hyundai want to give the car exposure? I can't prove any of that, it's just my opinion.