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styling is such a subjective thing - although I agree that it is a good looking car. The key to me is that there is nothing really objectionable about it except possibly the in-your face 'winged' grille. But it is just a good clean design that does borrow from many others. Polarizing adventurous designs (think the 300C) can have a love it/hate it effect.
Funny you mention seeing the car on the road and whatever positive effect that might have. Live in a very large city where Hyundai vehicles are quite popular and still have yet to see a Genesis anywhere.
There are a very few on dealer lots that apparently never make it onto the roads .By product of selling 1000/month I guess - OR maybe those excitable Germans on those TV ads are buying all of them, shipping them back to Europe where they can be dissected in an effort to figure out how those Koreans are building it so cheap. :surprise: .
I realize that doesn't necessarily mean moving up to luxury status, of course, but rather moving slightly upscale and slotting Kia below the Hyundai brand, to distinguish them a bit.
Here's why - take a look at Honda. Despite competent products in just about every segment, they still have yet to earn the respect of a lot of tradtional cars fans because they've never offered a V8 here, and their focus was always on FWD. A few dozen S2000s doesn't change that.
Taken a step further the RL never gained acceptance for the exact same reasons, even with AWD.
Lexus is arguably more successful than Acura - could it be because they were not afraid to push a V8 and RWD products?
Win over the enthusiast, the media, and then mainstream success will follow. Doesn't matter that the average Joe (or Betty) will buy a FWD Lexus RX. Lexus has more name recognition. The media was abuzz about the LS when it came out, it had everyone talking.
Going back to Hyundai, they did what Toyota did (RWD, V8) but took it one step further in building a RWD coupe for enthusiasts.
Again, it may not matter that customers will buy Sonatas, not the Genesis coupe, but the latter may create the buzz, and dare I say, respect, that convinced more people to enter the showroom in the first place.
If you think about it, the strategy is genius.
The key, IMO, to these RWD cars generally being better dynamically than the FWD/AWD ones is weight distribution. The RLs/TLs FWD or AWD still carry 60%(or more) of they weight on the front wheels, whereas the true sports sedans (Gs, Ms, 300s, and 500s are much closer to 50-50. Assumming that V8 is light enough to not screw up the balance of the Coupe, it should be a winner. Buyers of performance 'sports cars' tend to be younger, and don't have the same memories as some of those older dfolks that might be more pronne to a big ole sedan.
The LS had everybody talking for 2 reasons: 1) the perceived nerve of those Japanese thinking they could beat the Germans at their own game and, 2) the fact that the LS was indeed better in many respects than those same German cars. The car didn't have to be 10-15 grand cheaper to do well, simply because it was a new brand, the association with the Toyota brand was perceived as a virtue, it was sold at high end new and shiny places that specialized in butt kissing and it was (and still is?) so superior to what else was available. It did cause the Germans to get back to their drawing boards, but to this day there are many folks that would gladly take the Lexus' quality (fit/finish) and reliability over the BMWs generally better dynamics.
Yesterday's Wall Street Journal had US auto sales for Feb and YTD '09. This period coincides with Hyundai's advertising effort. The numbers pretty much confirm Hyundai's winning marketing, product and advertising strategies.
Some highlights: (changes reflect YTD '09 vs YTD '08):
Hyundai: 71% increase in total market share; 4.9% sales increase
BMW : 16% increase in market share; -26.8% sales decrease
MB: 16% loss of market share; 33.1% sales decrease
Toyota: 6% increase in market share; 35.9% sales decrease
Honda: 10% increase in market share; 33.3% decrease in sales
Nissan: 10% increase in maret share; 33.6% decrease in sales
Midsize cars: 37.4% decrease in sales
Small Cars: 31.5% decrease in sales
Luxury cars: 35.8% decrease in sales
Large cars: 50.6% decrease in sales
But nonetheless, as it relates to the topic of this particular forum, the fact that Hyundai does compete so well at the lower ends of the market, does not do much for any efforts they might make in the so-called luxury market. You'll never convince me that having sub $10k cars at the same place where something like the Genesis is sold does any good at all for not only Genesis sales but also for how it is perceived by the autobuyer.
Why would you expect Hyundai to recoup all of its start-up costs for the Genesis so quickly when it's not realistic for ANY manufacturer of a comparable new design to do so?
especially at 1200 cars/month
Yes, having people say "fine car" and "Hyundai" in the same breath is priceless. It opens up doors for the rest of Hyundai's line, which isn't bad either.
I have also noticed that Hyundai has gone [non-permissible content removed] for tat with Toyota's lineup, and offers more standard equipment for every model. That approach opens eyes and gets people to thinking, even if they wind up buying Toyota.
I think you'll see a few Miata folks comparing them, if only for the rear-drive dynamics.
Mazda did a pretty good job exploiting the Miata's halo effect with their Zoom Zoom campaign.
Though again, halo effect - it helps the brand overall, that's just hard to quantify in numbers.
Just as Lexus LS600h is a money loser and helps raise lexus brand
Do you think S65AMG or S600 are really making money? They help MD Brand.
Prius is a money loosing proposition for Toyota but it helps them project a image that helps Toyota in other line.
Same can be said about Genesis.
In my mind Infiniti and Acura are not that successful because there is NO halo car to uplift the mundane TL or G. An infiniti version of GTR will probably solve that.
Genesis is, for Hyundai, doing what it was designed to do. I dont think its a money losing car...but in case it is it still is doing its job of taking Hyundai's brand to next level.
My KUDOS to ad team.
I must say that six months ago I was in your camp. ..but I am slowly warming up to Genesis. I might not buy one yet (No first model year cars for me)..but in two years MAY BE... it was DEFINATELY NO six months ago.
Now Hyundai needs to work on consistent dealer experience.
I don't have knowledge of any other brand new model, with a new platform and engine having recouped costs (e.g. r&d, design. parts) in the first year of introduction.
For the record, there are now three cars utlizing the new platform pinning the Genesis sedan (and more in the future), and also three cars using the award winning Tau V8 (and also more in the future). By the way, it's not just about the number of units sold in the US, nor about the raw data - others have covered these points already I see.
Hyundai's timing as it turns out stinks - thru no fault of their own. As far as your market share increases go, that is quite infromative, although nothing here really surprises me: when the economy is bad, it certainly makes sense that those manufacturers that sell things on the lower end of the price spectrum are going to pick up gobs of market share, and vice versa when the economy is good
I'd argue the timing couldn't be any better for Hyundai, and I would attribute Hyundai's success to more than just your argument b/c "it sells things on the lower end of the price spectrum" - if that was the case, cars like Yaris, for example, should have also had better sales. Instead, it was down big time.
I would argue Hyundai's success in sales can be mostly attributed by its assurance program, as well as the Genesis effect, and from a profit standpoint, a weak Won.
Hyundai seems to be enjoying great presses these days, between the Genesis sedan and the coupe, its promising sales figure in the US, Canada, China, Germany (those were just the ones I saw), and its assurance program in the US.
Thje South Korean government has thing about targeting i(and subsidizing) companies in specific indusries, it wouldn't surprise me if Hyundai really doesn't care about the dollars and cents.
I doubt Hyundai needs much help from the gov't. It hasn't asked for gov't help financially like almost every automaker from GM to Toyota.
http://www.indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php?issueid=95&id=31048&option=com_conten- t&task=view§ionid=4
I think your point is supported by the 31.5% decrease in sales of Small Cars, which would be representative of cars at the lower end of the price spectrum.
Is Hyundai Making A Mistake Calling Their New Coupe "Genesis?"
That is the quintessential, penultimate, zenith, paramount, et. al. fanboy statement!!
"'Brand X' doesn't make mistakes."
I'm assuming you're only kidding, of course.
I saw criminal coward Madoff on TV today riding in a Kia Sorento - too bad he didn't move upmarket into the swoopy H :P
of course not, and another reason why Hyundai' will have a hard time being perceived as a 'lux mfgr.' - and there is some historical precedent to this as well something that Hyundai continues to want to ignore. Do you think the G20 helped Infiniti as a luxo dealership or those rebadged Maximas (the 'I'or the 'J' )? NO. Butbut now that they are all gone and we have slightly more expensive and more capable Gs and Ms has Infiniti advanced. And this is only in the last few years. I would go even further and say that the luxury or premium buyer doesn't want to be in any dealer that sells $10k econoboxes as well.
As I said in an earlier post, this car (the Coupe) may be perfectly fine and even a well executed new 'rice rocket' but it will do nothing to further Hyundai's (and Genesis') desire to be perceived as plainly something that they aren't.
It is a mistake on Hyundai's part to market the Coupe as a Genesis, it could do much to help Hyundai's name but do nothing but hurt the Genesis name, IMO
"'Brand X' doesn't make mistakes."
Ya, Fintail loves Hyundai. He even gave their logo an elegant, timeless name (Swoopy H). It'll go down in history with the flying lady, the tri star, and the roundel.
Personally, I think Fintail is wrong. I think Hyundai does make mistakes. For 1 thing, they waited too long to release the Coupe.
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"$99 Down! $99 a month on a brand-new Hyundai Genesis at the Cherry Hill Triplex! No Credit? Bad Credit? Bankrupt? No Problem!"
I would walk 1000 miles to NJ for that deal.
all in good fun I guess and this in at a time that we have so many homebuyers upside down in a hurry.
A question though about this "Assurance Program". If Hyundai is effectively guaranteeing they will take back their cars after a year, then how is Hyundai protecting themselves against that well used (or abused) return, or simply limiting the gross amount of depreciation that they will cover? There has to be something in there about this - or is an Assurance purchase really more like a lease (where you effectively guarantee a vehicle's condtion and value? A $40k Hyundai would figure to depreciate a whole lot more than than the lowly Accent - in gross dollars. We all know , of course, about that 'luxury' reputation that Korean cars have when it comes to residual values.
Think the 'Assurance Program' is a stroke of marketing genius that I'm sure has helped many of us with bunker mentalities to pull the trigger on a new car purchase when perhaps we shouldn't. . But you still have to wonder about the long term effects - if, for example, the economy worsens even more and a whole bunch of Hyundais do come back then what happens to that legendary Korean resale value?
Reminds me of Mitsubishi a few years back - in an effort to help sales, they lowered their credit standards so low that anybody with a pulse would qualify. The eventual result, of course, a whole bunch repossessed Mitsus flooding the used car lots, and some rather serious financial consequences for Mitsubishi. A lot of minimal downpayment sales and a lot of cars where their used value didn't come close to what was owed on them. Don't believe they are doing this anymore, but it was (and may still be) a big problem for them.
I think Hyundai will be joining the 'pony car' wars with the Genesis coupe, put the 4.6 V8 in it, and I'm relatively confident that it would blow the doors off anything else in that decidedly 'non-lux' category - heck it might do a creditable job keeping up with a V8 Stang GT, even with the V6.
Interesting question. As is the question of how the other automakers (except Subaru) are protecting themselves from sales declines of 30, 40, even 50% while Hyundai's sales stay relatively flat year-to-year?
well they can just go ahead and lose the money can't they? If you are somebody like Subaru, or Honda, or Toyota etc. the solution is NOT in giving away your product and/or floding the market with them courtesy of some sort or "Assurance Program' or other gimmick. . Granted any car form any manufacturer is avaialable at what should be unheard of discounts, but as soon as those discounts etc become habitual and/or expected (by the autobuyer) - THAT is where residual values really suffer and where somebody who has bought the product suffers because now what he bought becomes too expensive to rid of.
As it relates to this froums topis, manufacturers that are generally known for large discounts and/or cheaper prices are NOT going to ever be 'luxury' anythings as well - and that's pretty much regardless of what the product actually is.
losing $30000 on a car that is standing in the dealership and company losing market share
OR
Loosing 30000 on a car AND make a customer happy.. so that when (not if) economy comes back he/she will come back too.
I am also positive there is an insurance company involved... Hyundai might be just buying insurance.
while your point is well taken, when that company in your example loses $30000.00)( or offers ridiculous discounts) just to make a customer happy, it does effectively screw resale values and therefore all the other folks that have bought the product. Honda, in particular, is very protective of their residual values, so much so that a dealer selling the product too cheap, will be 'reprimanded' trhu allocation 'adjustments'. This also being the reason BTW that you don't find very many Hondas in rental fleets. Toyota and even Nissan do the same but definitely to lesser extents.
Subaru, in backys original example of cars still selling, is a niche car, pretty much THE car to own in the snow/mountain states. It is neither cheap nor is it discounted nearly as much as the Hyundais of the world. Oh yeah -maybe, just maybe, that's why Subarus do pretty well in resale value dept. as well - they are usually expensive to buy but also cheaper to own.
Since you yourself pointed out that ALL the automakers are offering ridiculous discounts right now... I fail to see your point here wrt Hyundai in the luxury market. How is Hyundai different than the other automakers in the luxury market... except that Hyundai is selling cars? Resale values for luxury sedans aren't anything great to begin with.
Example:
Buyer A buys a V6 luxury car for $45k. After three years it's worth $25k. Loss from depreciation: $20k.
Buyer B buys a Genesis V6 for $35k. After three years it's worth only $17k (I'm being intentionally pessimistic here). Loss from depreciation: $18k.
Who is better off, financially? (And that's before we talk about interest expense etc.)
Subaru doesn't, Toyota and Nissan don't and neither does Hyundai. What Toyota and Nissan do have however is that they offer proper lux models AKA Lexus and Infinti. I guess I'll run out of breath and suffocate before I get you to understand that a Hyundai dealer will never ever sell a 'luxury' car - never. And it has nothing to do with the fact that your pet Genesis does quite well in the 'bling' dept.
Buyer B buys a Genesis V6 for $35k. After three years it's worth only $17k (I'm being intentionally pessimistic here). Loss from depreciation: $18k.
Who is better off, financially? (And that's before we talk about interest expense etc.)
Thank you! The whole Hyundai depreciation argument is a red herring.
There are times to use dollars, and times to use percentage. Use them right!
It is much much too early to project the resale value of the Genesis- you may be right and it may be the first Hyundai in history :surprise: to hold its value,. but your numbers are nothing more than some wishful thinking at this point.
And why not? Edmunds and Intellichoice invent theirs. They're all hypothetical's derived from projected data. There's no way you can get perfectly accurate data on current and future cars.
And who are you calling a "fanboy"? What cars do you drive?
But now you say it's much much too early to predict the resale value of the Genesis.
Then you changed the discussion from depreciation, to which cars cost less to own over a period of time. (Because you know your depreciation argument doesn't hold water, perhaps?) Anyway, if it's much much too early to predict the resale value of the Genesis, how can anyone determine the ownership cost of a Genesis?? :confuse:
Also, fyi some Hyundais "hold their value" quite well--especially when you consider how much in real dollars the owner is shelling out for depreciation compared to other brands.
I do agree with your implication that this is a deragatory term - as it does seem to indicate a loss of objectivity IMO.
What do I drive? 05 Avalon Touring to answer your question. Next car? don't know, the Genesis will deserve a serious look but if I do pull the trigger on one of those, I won't think I'm buying a poor man's Lexus, Infiniti, MB or BMW, I will think instead that it is a car that I am going to have to have a lot of faith in, because I'm going to have to keep it a long long time.....
Huh? This is not my argument - these are published numbers here at Edmund's and several other places called TCO (true cost to own) . If you want to argue about them, send them an email and gripe tol them about what an unfair shake that Hyundai gets. Bring your 'A' game though, hypothetic examples with ficticious numbers aren't likely to impress them much..
fine, name 'em and we'll look them up together.
So why do you persist in using that term in this forum?
I don't have faith in ANY car, and I advise you not to. No matter what car you choose and how carefully you choose it, you are taking the lesser of the evils. I don't like Hyundai at all. I bought mine because I hated it less than the rest of the choices.
My condolences on the Avalon.
why do folks usually get all dressed and fancied up to go to church on Sunday?
a. Because the church has a dress code.
b. because it is some sort of tradition and that's what we're all supposed to do
c. to impress our friends and neighbors
d. to represent to anybody watching some degree of success they may or may not have achieved.
e. all of the above
Think about that for awhile.
I think ourr host poses a rather interesting question about his sideways baseball capped kid. and that kid's effects on the 'luxury' car buyer. That baseball capped kid is likely more interested in that Genesis Coupe rice rocket, a 'luxury' buyer (if there is one there ) interested in the Sedan is more likely to want to get the hell out of there, the more sideways baseball caps he sees - don't you agree?
guess you don't know much about the latest Avalons do you? How about a big extemely comfortable, really fast (6s 0-60), and very economical (26 mpg overall) car , that's never been in the shop (100k) except for a steering fix when it was new (the 05 a first year model.). Best car I've ever owned, out of several dozen. My car, in those trims that gets the price up a bit, is what I think is the logical competition for the Genesis
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2009-03-10-auto-buying-incentives_N.htm
My favorite was the one about the old guy who went to his bank and the teller wouldn't validate his parking ticket, thinking he was just a bum. The guy took his millions down the street to the other bank.
We have a lot of members with car names in their user names. What's so bad about being a fan of a car?