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Genesis, I wasn't impressed when they claimed to place it as Lexus GS and BMW 5 competitor. However, after they lowered their expectations and place it on the large near luxury category (and entry level luxury), it became a shark in the fish pond with very few good contenders. Add Chrysler's status as dying (at that time) and people stay away from 300cs. With only Lexus ES as the actual competitor I'm not surprised the genesis sells well.
I stand by my words though, I still don't think the Genesis is a true luxury car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree it's an unfair comparison. Genesis, and all cars, should only be compared with cars within $2-3K of their selling price. What separates Genesis from other cars in its price class is the quality, luxury, and engineering you get in the $32-$42K range.
However, as regards quality and engineering,"quality, luxury, and engineering you get in the $32-$42K range," these will not be really known for 3 years or so. Look good now, but only time will tell.
BTW, Azera, Vera Cruz and Genesis ARE luxury cars, but NOT prestige cars. Lexus, BMW. MB, et. al. are Prestige cars. Luxury is based on what is offered on the vehicle, whereas Prestige is how it is perceived by the general public. This is often determined by exclusivity and price.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Ah, that I agree. The only one to match Gen, technologically, is the Infiniti G. Luxury, well, it's hard to tell, but I think Lexus ES is still slightly more luxurious. Quality and engineering are different stories though. Apart from the somewhat cheap plastic bits inside and (for me) bland styling I don;t see Gen losing in anything else. Well, except brand prestige.
Genesis is a luxury car by any reasonable definition. Luxury is real and easy to measure. Prestige is not measurable, and largely a state of mind. Prestige cars may not even be top notch luxury cars, but they're always expensive and/or frivolous.
The price range being discussed hear is near-luxury, especially when we're below $40k.
I think the Azera is upscale, while the Geneis is near-luxury.
Luxury starts somewhere in the $40s and IMHO price and exclusivity are part of the package.
Having said that...
I sat in a Genesis at the NY Auto Show and ... wow. very nice. I was impressed even though my expectations were high.
When they made a new press release stating that they consider near luxury players as their actual competitors, I thought now we got a match.
As my preference is sporty handling the Infiniti G will still be my choice at the price range, but those considering a good sedan with room and plush ride will be pretty happy with the Gen. Just forget the prestige thing, people should know by now that when they drive Lexus they're driving glorified Toyotas (it's said in Japan that Toy brought Lexus brand to Japan to recover customers' falling confidence).
Hmmm...yes, the same way that people who drive Porsche and Audi's should realize that they are driving spiffed up Volkswagens.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
That's 1 more good reason to ignore badges and focus on the car. I've never seen a badge I could fit in, much less drive.
Hyundai would be very smart to elevate their entire brand, not just spin off Genesis. So far, that appears to be their intentions.
This of course, doesn't mean a luxury Toyota is bad. Just to point out the perception problems here.
P.S: and yes, some Audis are spiffed up VWs (TT to name one). Doesn't make it a bad car though.
Nope. How is it possible when Rolls Royce is owned by BMW?
Plus BMW developed separate platform and specific parts for Rolls use only.
Bentley, the same as Rolls, owned by VW but the majority of it's parts are exclusive. Most VW group's cars have separate platforms and parts, while Toyota share parts like crazy. Please remember that Lexus pre-2006 models are rebadged Toyotas and now they put those Toyotas under Lexus brand and kill the Toyota badged ones just to make it simpler.
I don't see any perception problems unless they are on your part. If you feel it is necessary to point out that some Lexus vehicles are spiffed up Toyotas, then you should not mind me pointing out that some Audis are spiffed up Volkswagens.
As you said, it is not a bad thing. The sharing of parts is very cost effective for all manufacturers and is necessary to keep prices down. Your original post seemed to imply that Toyota/Lexus was the only one to do this. Maybe a perception problem on your part?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If they are quality and reliable parts, what is the problem in that? It's much more efficient and cost effective. It's not like we as consumers don't pay more money for the same stuff in a spiffy new wrapper all the time. Case in point, buying a Pioneer A/V receiver versus buying an Okyo. (I believe it's Okyo; whichever one it is that Radio Shack carries.) Exact same parts, different wrapper; only, one cost significantly more than the other.
It's a fun story. Volkswagen bought both Rolls Royce and Bently and their factories. They outbid BMW. However in an oversight that some VW attorney will never live down, they bought the company, but failed to buy the rights to the Rolls Royce name for use in automobiles.
Thus BMW picked up the Rolls Royce name for what amounted to a song, and started building completely new cars with the name Rolls Royce and didn't have to absorb the old factories, workers, or designs.
VW did own the name Bentley, and therefore make Bentleys but can't make Rolls.
The Rolls uses the BMW V12; the Bentley uses the VW/Audi W12 engine.
Interestingly enough the VW Phaeton was basically the same car as the Bentley so there's your "what's in a name" comparison and the accompanying lesson in how reputation impacts sales.
Except they may not be. Oh, they may be the same parts, but someone around here was relating the story about how the parts get graded and the ones that meet the highest criteria go into the name brand while the Grade B and C parts get put into the lower end models.
So, same parts, but your chances of getting a lemon are less with the name brand.
No, they're not necessarily a bad thing. Say if Hyundai decides to build a new luxury brand, and some parts are shared with Hyundai cars, it wont be a bad thing as long as they're sharing the good parts.
Audi TT = loads of VW parts, does that make it a bad car? Nope. Cadillac Escalade = glorified Tahoe, resulting in bad car? Yes, more like an overpriced Tahoe to me.
Rolls isnt using BMW 7's engine, at least not directly. it's a 6.7L v-12 developed from BMW's 6.0 v12.
I don't think there's any question about the cars themselves. They're a success.
It's how Hyundai handles things when they go wrong... and things will go wrong... ask any BMW or Mercedes owner... I know. My first experience with 'luxury' service was back in the late 80's when I bought an Acura Integra. Acura handled their early model problems well. I remember thinking "I don't care what goes wrong with this car because Acura will fix it as quick as they can, and they're going to try like hell to do it right."
If Hyundai can give the same impression to their customers, they're going to rule the (near luxury) world.
:surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
You base your opinion of the Escalade/Tahoe on what? :confuse:
Your slip is showing... :sick:
To this day, VW cars are some of the most unreliable in the business. Don't believe me, hit the Golf, Touareg, et. al. forums... It's a shame, too, because I really like the Touareg a LOT, but I'd be horrified to own one. Following your opinion, the TT should be horrendous.
To further the point, I don't think it is a coincidence that the the brand that didn't succeed in the so called luxury market to the same extent as the other two was Infiniti - Nissan not having the same quality rep as the other two at that time.
Hyundai has always sold its cars because of the screaming values they tend to be - not because they are perceived to be desireable or special in any way. THAT is what needs to change to 'make room'.
Plus they make powertrain upgrades when appropriate. Look at Toyota's fine 2GR V6. Toyota models make about 266hp yet the Lexus IS with the same block add direct injection and make 306hp. Note that the Lexus ES doesn't get DI, but it's not a sporty model.
Porsche took a VW V6 from the Touareg and drops it in the Cayenne and added just 10hp, probably mostly on paper FWIW, and with far simpler changes than adding Direct Injection.
Funny thing is Porsche is only getting down to adding DI to their engines now.
Yet people give Porsche a pass? Heck, the original VW V6 in the Cayenne only made a measly 250hp.
Plus, the whole ignition coil failure affected Audis just as much as it affected VWs.
Why do you guys give the Germans a pass when they do the same (or worse)?
If 250hp was OK for a Porsche then why is 272hp not OK for a Lexus ES? :confuse:
It has changed. The best example is the Genesis sedan, which won the NACOTY, took 2nd in the MTCOTY (behind a $75k sports car), and is ranked at the top of its class by CR not because it's a "screaming value" (which it is), but because it's a fine car. There are other examples, but not as dramatic, e.g. the Santa Fe being ranked at or near the top of its class of SUVs by CR the past few years, the Elantra ranked as CR's top compact (and even the previous-gen Elantra ranked by Edmunds.com as its best bet for used compacts), and the Veracruz beating out the RX in a head-to-head comparo in MT (albeit price was part of the comparison). Also, when you read professional reviews of Hyundais over the past couple of years, they almost always say something like, "It used to be, people bought Hyundais because they were good values; now they are good cars."
Perception is changing quickly and how!!!!
I've owned 3 new VW's and a new Audi, and their quality was horrendous. Never again will I be brand or country loyal.
My VW's and Audi had a problem with materials applications. They use plastic where metal should be used, cheap plastic where a more durable plastic should be used, low strength steel where higher strength steel should be used. Things broke that should never have broken.
That's what a lot of folks say until they drive one. That changes a lot of minds.
Hyundai has moved on from building cheap cars, and astute car buyers recognize it. Yes, they scream value, but not just because they have more size and features for the buck. Their engineering, quality, and styiling are tuning heads, and make them more valuable.
On the fact that the Escalade use mostly Tahoe parts and charge an extra $20,000 for it. And it really shows, fuzzy loose fitting headliner, barely adjustable steering, rear axle where cars in that class should have independents, need I say more?
Btw, it's merely an example, it's not dependant on brand name only. Porsche makes great cars, and I find the Cayenne a nice SUV but the v6 version is dumb (why charge that much extra when they simply transplant a VW engine in there?)
Slip in what? I don;t care for the brand that much. Lexus shares myriad parts with Toyota doesn't necessarily mean a bad thing. But the fact that it's actually a glorified Toyota didn;t change until very recently when Toyota FINALLY created a separate R&D division for Lexus. Bad car? Not necessarily, but even now I think it's safe to assume that an ES is still a reskinned Camry, no matter how good it is.
You seem to miss my point. A rebadge is still a rebadge, good or bad doesn't matter and is not what I'm trying to point out.
Uh, agree with all the concepts above except for design. The only Korean car that makes my head turn is the Genesis coupe. Want a head turner? I say look at Nissan and Mazda.
Guilty.
It is sort of fun to razz someone about their Ford (Volvo), Audi (VW) or Nissan (Infiniti). Fun, depending on how well you know the person anyway.
Ok, I'm gonna reform. Meanwhile,
Hyundai denies reported approach by GM on brand (Forbes)
The article doesn't say which brand, but the Hyundai HUMMER has a nice ring to it.
Ironically Hyundai used to source engines from other Asian makes but now do it on their own, so they've done in the opposite direction.
Remember the Mitsubishi Precis? It was a clone of the Hyundai Excel. I think Mitsu supplied the engines for the Excel so they got a clone in exchange for those.
Today Hyundai builds its own (ever improving) V6 engines while Porshce relies on Volkswagon.
Take that, Porsche. :P
You seem to miss my point. A rebadge is still a rebadge, good or bad doesn't matter and is not what I'm trying to point out.
So what exactly are you trying to point out, then? :confuse: Seems to me that "parts sharing is a bad thing" is exactly what you're trying to say. :confuse:
parts sharing isn't a bad thing, within certain limits. Pass the limit like GM does and it becomes a bad thing. I take Escalade for example as IMO GM cross the line when they put the parts of Tahoe into Escalade, a car that pretty much demands top dollar. A rebadge is a rebadge. For instance Infiniti G can be named Nissan Skyline (JDM name) and I'd still buy it, alas it's meant to tell people not to think they're buying Infiniti that's a higher brand than a Nissan.
I can see where the misunderstanding come from. I looked back at my older posts and I did make the term sound totally negative, my mistake.
Definitely a lot of truth in this statement - but also points to part of the problem.
Korean cars are still perceived as being cheap (maybe inexpensive a better word) and Hyundai perpetuates the myth by insisting on being the price leader in all vehicle categories, advertising campaigns that seem to want to focus on how much 'cheaper' they are, and further discounting and/or rebating heavily already low prices. The fact that the products themselves are not all that 'cheap' is not the issue.
So there remains a significant number of car buyers out there that won't even give Hyundai a first look. And most of them, I would bet, are confirmed Toyota and Honda customers. Remember that it took Toyota a solid 10-15 years (or more) to live down that junk they foisted on us back in the middle-late 60s. Although things do seem to move faster these days, I don't believe it is realisitic to expect too much too soon. Excels and Scoupes live on in infamy!
I think the transformation of their image began a couple of years ago. The warranty thing really helped.
If buyers do go to the Hyundai dealer at all, they are certainly anticipating spending a lot less money than they would at the Toy, Nissan, or Honda dealer.
Honda doesn't even offer a V8, for instance. Someone who likes the RL but is disappointed that it only has a V6 might consider a Genesis, price notwithstanding.
I think the Genesis coupe will also have RWD fans shopping their stores, and not just for the price.
To imply that the Genesis is an objectively 'better' car than that GTR you mention, or FTM several other cars I can think of is a ridiculous contention UNLESS you are also factoring in how much cheaper it is . CRs top ordinal evaluation of the Genesis is also a price dependent rating (near luxury sedans) , The Genesis does not rate as highly (CR) as a number of cars (Infintis, Lexuses, German sedans etc ) that Hyundai would like us to think it is competitive with. They do, of course, happen to cost a bunch more.
My point is: if the Genesis was a $50-60k car instead of what it is, I don't believe it garners the COTY awards, you prize so highly. Almost everthing is ultimately price dependent!
Example: What was the base price of a Sonata with AT five years ago? Now it's over $20k. What did a loaded Elantra hatchback (everything but leather) cost five years ago? About $16k. Now it's $20k. What did a decently-equipped Accent cost five years ago? $10k, maybe $11k. Now it's over $15k. There was no such thing as a $30k, let alone $40k, Hyundai five years ago. Now there's six Hyundai models that breech the $30k line, with a loaded Sonata V6 not that far under it. Meanwhile, the sale prices for the Honoytasans are coming down, e.g. Accords, Camrys and Altimas for way under $20k, Civic LX AT sedans for the $15's, Versa hatches with $2500 in rebates, on a $14k car.
Personally I haven't noticed Hyundai using the "low price" angle as much as they used to. I see their emphasis more on "value", also pushing the safety angle and now with their "Blue" initiative pushing the fuel economy/green angle, and with XM and soon "Sync" (whatever they'll call it) pushing techhie features. With their upcoming models such as the Tucson replacement they are (gasp) pushing avant-garde styling and design. And they have been talking up their good reviews and awards. Not price as much.
Uh, no... I said the Genesis took 2nd place to the GT-R in the MTCOTY. Last time I checked, 2nd is not better than 1st. But still an accomplishment, considering the other vehicles in the running for MTCOTY.
CR's rating of cars is price-dependent only in that cars are grouped by price range. But within that range, there is no weighting for price. In that sense, CR's rankings are price-independent.
If you want to play the "what if?" game... if the Genesis were a $50-60k car, it would have a much different feature set, and be a much different and I expect much better car than it is at $33k-42k. So there's no telling where it would end up on the professional reviewers' scorecards.
They really do make a pretty nice car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460