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Comments
Uh, YES. Your statement was that the Genesis finished second BUT that was to a $75k car. A price dependent implication if there ever was one :confuse:
But you are right about one thing, it is when we can talk about anything that Hyundai makes AND NOT MENTION ITS PRICE that Hyundai has managed to shed some of those image problems that continue to dog them. The Genesis a step in the right direction, we'll see if they can keep it going.....
Never said they didn't or it wasn't - but what I have been saying is that it can't be a 'luxury' anything - not with that brand name.
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Not confusing them at all, but will stick by my contention that what is a 'luxury' car is a lot more than what's on the option lists. And yes, the prestige attached to a brand (usually comes with higher pricing) does have something to do with it.
When Hyundais are free, then we can talk about them without mentioning their price. It's natural to talk about the price of something that costs tens of thousands of dollars... unless that kind of money is just pocket change to you.
Well, to be fair you can't forget that the definition of "luxury" differs depending on each person.
I, for one, don't think the Genesis is a true luxury car just yet, near luxury / entry level luxury, yes. Thing is by my standard the Genesis still lacks enough customer service quality, and material quality to pass for a true luxury car. I still see too many cheap plastic bits inside, and while Hyundai's customer service castly improved over the years it's still not on par with class standards.
My belief is if you don;t have the prestige, you need the service quality. For example: BMW has the prestige but not the service, while Infiniti doesn;t have the rpestige yet but have excellent customer service. Hyundai hasn't delivered enough of any of the above.
That's my views. Feel free to disagree, but remember there's no right or wrong with this kind of topic, only agree or disagree.
I do think Hyundai has produced a luxury car, but in the form of Equus, not Genesis. Genesis is a nice car, but still has a lot of homework to do to become a true luxo car by my standard. First off improve the customer service, and then upgrade that cheesy plastic-wood and fake metal trims, they look and feel cheap.
Meanwhile if I have to choose a Hyundai, it'll be a dark blue or black Gen coupe.
What particular "cheap plastic bits" are you talking about? Have you spent a lot of time actually inside the Genesis, touching the plastic (and leather) and actually driving the car? Or as you say, does the plastic just look cheap? If that is the case you have a very discerning eye.
These forums would disappear very quickly in we all agreed or had the same tastes.
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And yes customer service will have to continue to improve
That is very true indeed
What particular "cheap plastic bits" are you talking about? Have you spent a lot of time actually inside the Genesis, touching the plastic (and leather) and actually driving the car?
I can easily point them out. Easiest example: the metal look plastic is definitely cheap looking compared to what you'll see in an Infiniti or even a Chrysler 300. The plasti-wood would've looked ok until you see the ones VW use. In case of the "wood" trim, a little more graining, less gloss and thicker plastic so it won't flex easily will really help.
This is what I'm talking about when I mention look and feel. Try Acura TL (not the '09, that one sucks) or at least a VW Jetta for a comparison and you'll definitely understand what I'm saying.
I didn;t drive the car for long, aout 10 mins or so, but it was enough to point out that it's a comfort oriented car, sacrificing handling for ride quality (which is wise as Hyundais aren't good handlers). For those interested in long distance cruise or at least soft ride this car is prefect. For me who prefer handling over ride it's no match.
Discerning eye? perhaps, as I'm a very picky person.
Does expensive plastic come from Europe exclusively?
No way, Acura TL and Lexus ES are examples that using better plastics in $35k cars is definitely possible. It's not exclusive, just about how much a company's willing to spend in developing better materials for it's cars.
I've sat in an Equus, which belongs to a neighbor here. True it lacks the design inside out (bland inside, Toyota Crown carbon copy outside) but the materials used are really nice compared to a Genesis. My only concern is it's nowhere near good enough if Hyundai really wants to place it in the $70k category to face the likes of Audi A8 and MB S-class. If we're talking the $50k sedan category, that's a different story.
I don't think you should be concerned. If Hyundai brings in the Equus, it will spank everthing in its price class, just like Genesis, Gen Coupe, Sonata, Santa Fe, and Veracruz do so handily.
Once we own a particular car, voila, it turns out to be perfect !!
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I can't see the market rushing to embrace a 50K+ car from what is known as a value brand that looks like a larger clone of an invisible model costing half the money. Maybe there's a new generation of this thing coming, updated by people who can design cars.
The inital reception to Hyundai making a luxury car has been outstanding but before Genesis goes further it will take a large financial commitment from Hyundai to do so and that is, sub brand the Genesis name, customer service, advertising (product placing), and new product development. I don't think "Hyundai" will ever be anymonous with luxury, but will continue to grow with fine, well executed, value cars. I do believe they are playing the similar playbook that Toyota did with Lexus in 1989 but with less money in order to keep the costs down.
Remember Lexus was not a luxury car when it first came out, European brands laughed. It took a few years but Lexus did become a prestige after the public accepted it. Hyundai is well on their way doing the same thing but 20 years later.
The period for Hyundai to mimic that, if it happens, will be longer. The LS aped the old W126 S-class, virtually an updated line by line copy. The Genesis isn't so ambitious, which might not hurt it.
There certainly are some remarkable similarities and I hope the Genesis is on the same path. The European brands are still laughing at Lexus...but it is kind of a sick laugh and it's to keep from crying !!
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I'll bet many people said something like that not too long ago regarding the Genesis sedan--that the market would not rush to embrace a $40k car from what is known as a value brand. Yet so far the market acceptance has been quite good. So I am not going to bet against the Equus yet. We don't even know what the car that will reach the U.S. will look like, and drive like.
If the Equus has that supersized Azera bodywork when/if it comes here, that will not be a wise decision.
Lexus, Bmw, Mercedes, Audi, Acura, and whoever else need to start looking into affordability for the average consumer, and not making there wallets fat off old history. :mad:
Oh yes I am concerned. Dont forget that the upper luxury class put little consideration in value and price, otherwise Lexus with it's LS would've ruled the class long time ago.
Customers looking for cars in the north of $50k range don't usually put high priority on value, hence the failure with Acura RL (okay, plus it's horrific reliability) and the fact that even when priced lower Audi A6 and Lexus GS fail to beat BMW and MB in sales.
Placing Equus in this class (midsize luxo) will give it a better fighting chance. Placing it to fight the 70k sedans is suicidal. Remember VW's idiocy with Phaeton. Noone and I mean noone can argue that it's a great car with amazing interior quality, tanklike fit-finish, plush ride, etc, all at prices lower than the rest of the German trio. Yet it failed, why? Two things IMO:
1. Prestige matters there, a lot
2. Value is mostly overlooked in this class.
Not me, I used to drive an 04 330i and while I loved the handling I could easily point out the plain dash, terrible sound system and and radio display that's impossible to see when you wear polarized shades.
Maybe I got it wrong, the test car (it's got "display unit, not for sale" label on it) I was shown definitely got plastic-wood in it.
It's not about hating Genesis, I prefer handling over ride so I'd choose G37 if I'm in the market. For those looking for ride, I'd actually recommend the Genesis first before saying Lexus ES. I'm serious.
The same with Malibu, they can call it car of the year for all I care, but I don;t like it enough to choose it even if I;m in the market. Too fat, too heavy, ok materials but poor fit-finish, the list goes on (though I'd say the same about Camry-Accord).
No, no I'm not. I'm talking about the Equus. Are you saying the Equus would come in at $70K? I was thinking more like $55K.
Sorry to have to tell you this but the LS has ruled the class for the last 12 or 15 years now. It has been the sales champ in the U.S. for at least that long.
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Fully equipped Camry cost less than bmw 335i. Does it mean Camry is better car which could be driven instead of moving body from point A to point B? No, Camry is appliance, bmw - das auto:-)
S class, Audi A8 and BMW 7 Series. All direct competitors.
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2009 Hyundai Genesis Crash Tests by the IIHS (Straightline)
Old story: Hyundai Genesis Aces Crash Tests
However, unless this Equus receives some kind of renovation, I can't see how it would be a better choice for anyone over a Genesis.
Of course no praise for Hyundai is unbiased...
So is it really the price or the eerily quiet cabin and extremely soft ride, plus super quality materials and fit-finish?
Equus doesn't deliver enough of those yet.
Botom line is: Hyundai can receive my praise or my mocks depending on it's own decisions, like, getting reasonable and placing their products to compete in the right class segment.
As seen in many of those photos posted earlier, the Equus is far move technologically advanced than the Genesis. The Equus also would be the first model to receive the other Tau family of engines (ie 5.0L/5.5L).
How's the Equus a supersized Azera?
Bobad is correct - Hyundai's lineup is adequately placed, with very little overlap, including the price ranges.
If Hyundai decides to bring over the Equus, the car WILL not start at 70K, contrary to many internet rumors, including on here. And if Hyundai brings over the Equus, I am thinking they would be modest and surely would be happy if they sell 100 units a month, unlike certain arrogant automaker who thought they could sell thousands of units by priicng its car with a starting price in the upper 60s.
There are a lot of intangibles and equities the Equus can bring to the table. For a market like the US, Hyundai can improve its perception with such product, equating to additional traffic to showroom, and in turn benefit to the whole lineup - see Genesis.
The greenhouse of the Equus is almost identical to the Azera, and the styling is very similar otherwise. Azera on steroids. Sadly, the Azera almost doesn't exist anymore. The Genesis makes it a nonentity, and the Genesis looks so much better .
The Euros do sell thousands of units of their higher priced cars. Some seem to think they equal the 5er/E etc now, I am sure the Equus will destroy the S/7 etc.
Maybe Hyundai can compete with Rolls/Bentley etc next :P
Regardless of price, placing Equus to play against Lexus LS and MB S-class is still suicidal. Lexus prevailed in the past with LS because it covered the weakness of LS (prestige, technology) with incredible customer service and reliability. Thing is, customers aren't as lenient as they used to be, they demand more and more, as shown by Infiniti's failure to do the same with Q despite the red carpet service, Or VW with Phaeton. Even if the same formula still works, Hyundai's customer service is still nowhere near Lexus'.
Fighting in the $50k range is a different story. Customers are still demanding and value means little still, but it's much easier for Hyundai to meet the class' standards. Hyundai is on the right track, but needs to be patient. It's already improving faster than any japanese company did. Hell, it's already improving faster than ANY other automaker.
Could the same thing be happening in the car business? The U.S car biz is certainly on the ropes thanks to Japan and Europe. And these two are now looking nervously over their shoulders at Korea, China, and India. If you want to stay on top today it will take a lot more than prestige and past greatness.... and that is good for all of us who love cars.
If Japan hadn't showed up GM and Chrysler would be fat and happy today and we would all be driving $50,000. Dodge Neons and Chevy Chevetes while dreaming about a $100,000. Cadillac with beautiful blue velour interior and a one year or 12,000 mile warranty.
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I personally don't see the Equus as an Azera on steriods but styling is subjective.
By the way, the arrogant automaker I posted earlier was VW. I wasn't talking about other Euro luxury models.
We've all seen BMW Isettas, and look where they are today. Humble origins do not exclude an upscale march.
I do think it will be harder to do today, though, only because the Isetta existed at a time when other cars were not so good. The competition wasn't nearly what it is today.