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http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13235107">link title
The article also says that most of the sales gain for Hyundai are because of Genesis
Joe Phillippi of AutoTrends Consulting is one of many analysts who believe that the Genesis is one of the main reasons why Hyundai is doing well: its market share in America has increased from 2.1% in January 2008 to 3.7% in January 2009, and the company is now gaining market share more quickly than any other carmaker in America. Besides the Genesis, Hyundai is also benefiting from a novel scheme, launched in January, in which it offers to buy back cars from customers who lose their jobs within a year of their purchase. (The company essentially offers a smaller discount and then uses the money to buy an insurance policy.) This has proved so successful in stimulating sales that General Motors said on March 3rd that it was considering a similar scheme
You mentioned Intellichoice is a good place to look for info on value, right? Here's what Intellichoice has to say in their Value Ratings about the Santa Fe and 3 of its competitors from Japan:
CX-7: Poor
Murano: Average
Santa Fe: Average
Pilot: Above Average
How about the Sonata and 3 of its main competitors:
Accord LX: Excellent
Camry LE: Excellent
Mazda6i Sport: Average
Sonata GLS: Excellent
But let's get more on target...
E550: Below Average
Genesis 4.6: Above Average
GS 460: Above Average
M45: Average
Looks like some Hyundais, including the Genesis, are good values in their class according to an unbiased source that you respect, Intellichoice.
Your comments and logic is amusing at best, but I DO find these words very
offensive! You are calling Asian made car a RICE ROCKET ?
So is that mean Mustang is a WHEAT ROCKET?
You seem like someone who is anti-Hyundai spokesperson to make sure Genesis
won't be successful. But it looks like Genesis is doing quite well considering our
economy. BTW, you keep mentioning $10k Hyundai- This is 2009-even the least
expensive Hyundai with some options are usually over $ 10k.
From your dozens of posts in this thread, it's quite obvious what your intentions
are. It gets boring.
Not when some kind of perceived social status is more important than engineering, quality, styling, and value.
Captain1 would never buy a "Swoopy H", so I find it suspicious that he is even here. Since he is definitely not here to research a Hyundai for possible purchase, or to offer honest debate, I can only assume he is here specifically to demean them. To what end I can only speculate.
Please don't! A car can never be too cheap! Although I don't presently need a car, if I ran across a low mileage Genesis cheap enough, I would grab it.
I have never paid any attention to resale values. I always sell privately, and beat "the book" by a good margin.
Backy was exactly right that you don't look at percentage depreciation, you look at dollar depreciation. If you don't believe me, go down town and try to buy something with a percent. :P
A lot of the disagreements here are because some people look at cars as an "investment". Well, cars aren't an investment. They're transportation. Even the finest cars are a poor investment. Yea, some people get 500K for a cherry 1966-72 muscle cars, but they still weren't a good investment. They would have done better buying stocks in 1966.
Yep, sometimes there are folks out there that value such things more than your engineering and value judgements - which are subjective at best
and
Captain1 would never buy a "Swoopy H", so I find it suspicious that he is even here. Since he is definitely not here to research a Hyundai for possible purchase, or to offer honest debate, I can only assume he is here specifically to demean them. To what end I can only speculate
yep if you have any intelligence you should know better than to speculate on what I might or might not do - so PLEASE don't. This particular forum is about whether Hyundai can find a place as a 'luxury' mfgr. or in the 'luxury' market. It is NOT about a warm and fuzzy Hyundai fanboy lovefest. You might note that I have never said anything derogatory about the Genesis itself, quite to the contrary - the only thing I've really ever said is that Hyundai will never be a 'luxury' brand.an opinion I think I'm entitled to and an opinion I think I think I have defended adequately (and honestly) .
If that offends your fanboy sentiments so be it, you are entitled to your opinions as well.
I couldn't care less!! I go to a dealer to look at the cars, or to get required service, not to check out the other people!! I don't look to make friends at the doctor's office, the dentist, or Wal-Mart either!!!!
We bought our new 2006 Azera online from a dealer 650 miles away! We are very happy with it, and haven't been to that local dealer since our original shopping back in 2006!!
PS: At the time, that local dealer did not have the color, options, or price that we wanted!
WOW!! That is the shallowest statement I've read in a very long time!! Boy, I'm glad that you are not my purchasing agent!! "engineering, quality, styling, and value" are the only factors that I consider when shopping for anything!! I certainly would not buy a Buick just because some famous golfer is getting paid to recommend it!!
I violently agree.
Yet,,, you use derogatory terms like "fanboy", and "Swoopy H". It's more than obvious you are here only to demean the cars and their owners.
If I said "Mustangs are only for swoopy F lovers and fanboys", do you think I would go out and buy one? Yea, right.
I'm so sorry about the Avalon.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Genesis 4.6: Above Average
GS 460: Above Average
M45: Average
now this is what this forum is supposed to be about because IMO the Genesis doesn't belong in this group! The Genesis 4.6 being as inexpensive as it is, would figure to do quite well in something like TCO when you try to compare it to cars costing up to $30 grand more. No rocket science (or surprise there) . When you spend 60 or 70 grand on a true luxo car like those 3 you pick out, you are paying for something in a totally different league in several respects - not all of which are on the spec sheets.
To me - statements like your ''let's get more on target" shows no understanding of what a luxury car actually is - and isn't.
Also, the GS 460 and M45 can be had for much less than $30k more than the Genesis 4.6. Especially considering the GS and M are heavily discounted now, and the Genesis much less so.
You are entitled to your opinion that the Genesis is not a luxury car. Others have a different opinion. I think it's interesting that when I test drove the Genesis last summer, the two cars on hand for direct comparison were the E Class, and the CTS. I would have included the CTS in my list, but I expected you would say something like "What did you expect? Of course the Genesis is a better value than a GM piece of junk!"
Backy
Where can I get M45 for less then 30K?
I am in southern california (San Diego county) and am willing to travel up to 500 to 700 miles if I can buy a new M45 (may be lexus GS) for less then 30K
Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks
Sanjay
No, VW made the "phaetal" error of pricing it at $70K+ on top of being a VW. The car was very nice, inside and out. Nicer even than the A8, IMO. The problem was buyers didn't want to pay that kind of coin for a VW. That's also a big reason why they can hardly sell Touaregs; that and the dismal reliability history. The truck itself is, IMO, the best looking SUV on the market on the inside.
I think a closer parallel to the Genesis situation is actually what would eventually happen to the Mazda Millenia when Mazda chose not to brand it as an 'Amati'. The Millenia an entry level lux car at best really similar in many respects to what Honda was doing with Acuras at the time - you can't point to that one and say it failed because it was way too pricey - it failed because it was a 'Mazda', a brand that did not enjoyed the same quality rep as its J3 competitors. Deja Vu?
I went and read again....and I inferred same as I did before.
May be my english is not as good.
Where did you get $70K?
The Genesis 4.6 costs around $40k, give or take a couple $k. $30k more than $40k is $70k.
Uh? Mazda couldn't do Amati b/c it didn't have enough dough at the time.
The Millenia an entry level lux car at best really similar in many respects to what Honda is doing with Acuras at the time - you can't point to that one and say it failed because it was way too pricey - it failed because it was a 'Mazda', a brand that did not enjoyed the same quality rep as its J3 competitors. Deja Vu?
Honda still isn't doing much to take the Acura brand to the next level, even though the execs tell otherwise; basically, words louder than action coming from the Honda camp.
You would want the Genesis to fail, of course :sick: Because it's a Hyundai, because it's not priced high enough - all in your own words. Hyundai has done a good job on the Genesis family so far. and you can't even give the slightest credit.
FWIW, aside from the $399/month lease on the base V6 from the beginning, the Genesis sedan still has to-date, ZERO factory incentives; yet it has sold consistently since its first arrival into the US showroom mid-last year; recording higher sales in most of those months than the Japanese 3 luxury counterparts, doing so at a time where the J3 offers heavy discounts/incentive on the hood of their luxury sedans.
That's not totally true. If I remember correctly the price gap between a Mazda 626 and the Millenia was about $10,000 base model to base model. Even a fully loaded 626 was still about $7-8000 cheaper then a base Millenia.
A fully loaded Hyundai Azera is around the same price as a base Genesis which wouldn't cause sticker shock for a person looking at higher priced Hyundai's. In fact, it would be inviting. Maybe that's why the Genesis is doing pretty well. A person looking at a loaded Azera may put up 7 grand more for a 3.8 "Tech" package Genesis; a car that you can "see", "hear" and "feel" the difference in. What would a Mazda buyer get for 7 grand more in a base Millenia that would be worth the cost over a loaded 626? I would say not much.
I think Hyundai is doing the right thing by not making a "lux" brand so that way they can keep the price low. It's seems as if Mazda was close to making a "lux" brand but didn't lower the price of the Millenia when they chose not to.
exactly, and the oft mentioned contention here that Hyundai didn't do a "Genesis" dealer and brand because 'it was too expensive' - and that is different? :confuse:
You would want the Genesis to fail, of course
As usual, you have it all wrong, I, personally, have no reason to want to see the Genesis (or any other mfgr's) cars fail. Except possibly for Ford's - for an entirely different reason. The Genesis Sedan a fine choice in a large sedan, if it fails one less good choice for all of us, isn't it?.
My comments regarding the Genesis, how it is priced and how it is marketed and sold are only related to it finding a spot as a 'luxury' car which is precisely what this forum is supposed to be about. IMO, it won't find that spot, and not because of the car itself, but because of the path that Hyundai has chosen.
Contrary to what you and others may think, I don't think this forum is about what a wonderful car the Genesis is or isn't. I'll say it for the 538th time, the opinion that the Genesis is not a 'luxury' car has nothing to do with car itself, only with carbuyer's perceptions. A luxurious upscale sedan that is high on the initial bang-for-the- buck scale - yes - a 'luxury' car - no.
To pose the question another way: is there room in the luxury market for a sedan that has the features and performance of a luxury sedan, but costs thousands less than those cars and is not sold in dealerships dedicated to luxury cars? Over 1,000 people every month are saying "Yes" by voting with their pocketbooks. Others are saying "No" because they have pre-conceived notions of what a "luxury" car is, what it should cost, and how it should be sold. The Genesis sedan doesn't fit those pre-conceptions.
I am sure there are people in Hyundai's executive ranks who said over 10 years ago, "Offer a 10-year warranty?!? No one has ever done that before!", and more recently, "Offer to take a car back and even make some payments for the owner if they lose their income?!? No one has ever done that before!" Both ideas did not fit common perceptions of what car warranties should be. But they have turned out to be pretty darn good ideas.
Think the Millenia was a lot more car than you perhaps remember it being.
The Millenia had a rather innovative powertrain as well as more than its share of standard 'bling' Designed specifically to be Amati's first 'luxo' car it was well up the 'fit and finish' ladder as well. On its own a rather credible car that just found no buyers as a 'Mazda'. A $30 k Mazda? No such thing thought the car buyer, and it did eventually die a slow and painful death - as a Mazda. Would it have succeeded as an Amati? Would the Phaeton have succeeded as the the world's first Bentley 'for the masses'. Don't know , but we do know what didn't work..
.Acura has always been a less ambitious undertaking than either Lexus or Infiniti. The original Legend did very well, as does the current TL, but both much much closer to their Honda parentage than certainly the LS or Q. Maybe it's because of the Acura's generally lower prices, but I don't think that Acura has ever been thought of on the same level as Lexus and Infiniti
Of course not, but then we wouldn't have these wonderful discussions on these forums would we?
I think the cases are very different.
Mazda planned to create an Amati brand, but cancelled the idea. Millenia failed.
Hyundai never planned an upscale brand. Instead they bought Kia, and planned to move Hyundai gradually upscale. Genesis is doing that, and so far has succeeded.
It's very different, really.
The Millenia ,as an Amati, could have very well succeeded as had Acura, Lexus and Infiniti just before it - with a new label & dealer . The Millenia was no slouch and something akin to the Acura Legend, in many respects. The Amati 'dream' was never publicized to the best of my recollection, so that is the parallel I guess - a relatively expensive car by a decidedly non-luxury brand (Mazda and Hyundai) in this case. The Millenia hung around for awhile but I believe only a few knew or appreciated the car for what it really was. And I don't think you can say the Millenia 'elevated' the Mazda brand either.
Not necessarily that the Genesis will fail, it is a lot of car for the money - but that its success especially as a 'luxury' brand a much longer shot sold with that logo.
* The Millenia was akin to the Legend... but the Millenia could "very well have succeeded." And the Legend was a smashing success? How many Legends were sold in 2008, for example?
* "The Amati 'dream' was never publicized to the best of my recollection.." - it was all over the press at the time. Try a google on "Amati Mazda" and see what you get.
* "And I don't think you can say the Millenia 'elevated' the Mazda brand either." Because that wasn't the intended strategy wrt the Millenia. Maybe if Mazda had planned the Millenia to be a "halo" car for Mazda from the outset, as Hyundai did with the Genesis, and executed on that strategy, history would have been different.
Also, I recall a few posts ago you were complaining about the lack of profit on the Genesis at this point. Yet you continue to harp on the fact that the Genesis is sold by Hyundai dealerships, not by a new dealer organization with a new brand, and all that entails. What do you expect the losses on the Genesis would have been had Hyundai started the new brand and dealer network to go with it? That seems awfully inconsistent to me.
Hyundai has the Genesis brand elsewhere but decided not to go ahead and start in NA, this was a business decision.
What was the major difference? Hyundai has the dough, Mazda didn't.
This analysis has a problem. Honda abandoned the Legend name in this country because of a management decision that the resources were better spent on building the Acura name. That decision has proven misguided, as evidenced by the fact that the Legend name remains well remembered -- and well regarded -- several years after its official demise, while the Acura brand remains bereft of a clear identity in the eyes of the public.
To this day, the Honda Legend sold in the Japanese domestic market greatly outsells the mechanically and visually identical "Acura RL" sold here. The Legend never became a failure. The name change FROM Legend demonstrably did.
True, it really doesn't matter. As long as the owner is satisfied, everything else is irrelevant. Perception is reality, especially in subjective things like luxury.
The best and most unbiased opinions you can get on the original question posed here is from drivers that have owned both Genesis and established luxury brands. I trust their opinions above all.
According to the Genesis Sedan reviews I'm reading, and the poll results I posted 2-3 weeks ago (what vehicle did you trade for the Genesis?), it stacks up very well.
I agree. It appears that Honda has had big problems figuring our their WW branding strategy.
So maybe a decision to NOT create a separate brand to sell a luxury/upscale/luxurious-but-not-luxury/whatever car is a good one.
yes - in effect IT WAS. Remember that it was Honda that preceded Toyota and Nissan into the land of 'luxury' brands. It was the Legend that ESTABLISHED Acura. Keeping in mind that Honda certainly had a much better quality rep than Mazda in those days (late 80s and into the 90s) and if you can accept the fact that the Millenia was in many ways was the Legend' s equal, then the only difference between a car that succeeded (the Legend) and one that failed (the Millenia) was the badge and where it was sold - the parallel with the Genesis perhaps?
As for 2008 sales, get real, the Legend is now called the TL and is generally recognized as one of the best entry level lux 'sports sedans'.
The Legend was such a successful car in the U.S. that Honda/Acura dumped the name. And the TL is such a great car that its sales are down about 35% year-to-year. I wonder how many of those lost sales went to the Genesis?
your illogical answer I guess would be that everybody who is buying something else must therefore be buying a Genesis? :confuse: 1200 cars/month doesn't support that kind of assumption. How about they aren't buying anything? Isn't that really what this economy in the crapper is all about?
The Genesis could only hope to have the same degree of success as the TL and could only hope to have half the respect that car has both in the auto ndustry and press and coincidentally at the used car lots.
No, but thanks for putting words on my fingers. Maybe they aren't buying anything. Maybe some of them are buying a "luxurious" car that has a much less grotesque snout than the TL, plus a much lower price--plus an assurance program that helps if the buyer's job goes "in the crapper" along with the rest of the economy. But that is not in the realm of possibility for you, I suppose?
I would say the Legend is now the RL and the TL is the old Vigor. When the TL was first introduced it still had the old Vigor 5 cyl engine as an option. Until the redesign in 2005 the RL looked a lot like the old Legend. Not so much now.
The RL is actually called the Legend in other parts of the world.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460