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Give my regards to drinkypoo, the author of the car body article you linked to, above
i did state the lack of sources or science behind the article, but did you read the other one ( http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1468-6996/1/2/A04/STAM_1_2_A04.pdf?request-id=f935- - - )? considering that most recycled steel already has contamination and is being re-recycled with contaminated steel, i don't know how they could remove all of it. they can just dilute it. but a rate of >.2% of just copper (not including other contaminants) is to be expected.
here is an interview with the ride and handling engineering manager for the Genesis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb4i9betEf8
the interviewer actually asks a lot of good questions. the engineer actually prefaces that vehicle structure (structural integrity to the body frame) is the first consideration before any suspension tuning is done. when he states at the end that the Genesis has exceeded his expectation (benchmarking the Infiniti M along with Lexus and BMW) and that the ride and handling really excels (i imagine, no pun intended for the first Hyundai), i believe him. he really seems proud of his work, in addition to Hyundai's capabilities. i don't think it's a case of his behind not being able to feel the harshness that people have complained about, but his "seat-of-the-pants" suspension tuning was done with a particular unibody and chassis. i'm sure that particular car exceeded his expectation, but the real challenge is for Hyundai to build over 20,000 cars exactly like that one. i don't think they have succeeded in doing that. whether that can be done with improved quality control (Lexus level or higher) with recycled steel, or through using virgin steel, or something else entirely different remains to be seen.
the 2010 Genesis is just around the corner. when it comes out, i'm sure at least one or two posters (not me, mind you :P ) are going to be eagerly waiting to hear reviews of the new car's ride. the car will have a revised suspension; adjustments/revisions to dampers, bushings, spring rates and shocks. it probably means that they are going to relax the settings, which is something the engineering manager had hoped that he wouldn't have had to do. i'm not sure if that's the best way to address the issue. if that's all they're doing, you're still going to get inconsistencies in the ride of the car and possibly compromised handling, so you still won't be able to please everyone, or even the vast majority. similar changes were made to the Azera throughout its model cycle without completely solving the issues. my guess is that the suspension design isn't the main source of the problems, and Hyundai really needs to get at the source, whatever it is.
what's unusual is that the Sorento looks like it might be more upscale than the Borrego, not unlike the Lacrosse being more upscale than the more expensive Lucerne. so who knows how the next Santa Fe and Vera Cruz will turn out?
the only review i could find of the Sorento.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk1Htn38n2k
the reviewer doesn't really say too much about the Sorento in terms of features and drive, except that he thought it was truly great and the navigation was the most advanced he'd ever seen. actually, he only talks about the Sorento for maybe 2 minutes of a 7 minute video, and he spends about a minute giving a teaser about the Forte coupe, but it's better than nothing.
a commercial (in Korean) about the features of the Sorento R (diesel).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMe7VYnImSo
I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying that Hyundai's robots can't build 2 cars alike? Or what are you saying, and where do you get your information?
Don't get confused by the BMW fans saying the Genesis rides like a Buick, and Buick owners saying it rides like a truck. That's normal variation is people's personal preference and body build, not variation in the car's build.
Maybe 10 or 15 years ago you could drive 10 cars and two would feel like dogs four would feel ok, two would be very good and two would be great but that doesn't happen anymore. If it was a honda or toyota you might have to drive twenty or thirty cars to find the two dogs.
You can go drive a hundred hondas, or a hundred Hyundais or a hundred BMWs and 99 or 98 of them are going to feel exactly the same.
When I sold Rovers I would tell people that 10 plus years ago you would get the two dogs out of ten rovers because they didn't do a good job of standardizing manufacturing and had serious labor problems. Now it is more like 98 or 97 cars will feel the same you might get one dog and one real stud.
There just isn't much in the way of variation anymore.
http://www.gizmag.com/top-10-worlds-largest-automotive-manufacturers/12480/
http://www.hyundai-blog.com/
:shades:
The fact that Hyundai can find it easier to sell more and more of it products these days is not 'upsetting' - it's logical - a testimony to improved consumer acceptance, likely a truly better product, as well as to this rotten economy :sick: If we ever get to 'a Hyundai in every driveway' that will work against any of them ever being 'luxury'.
I guess those thousands of Genesis sedans sold in the past year-plus are figments of our imagination, then?
I love how you think: If Hyundai sells too few cars, it's a bad thing. If they sell too many cars, it's a bad thing.
You're assuming everyone thinks like you. I'll assure you they don't. People are smart enough to know a good car when they see one. They're smart enough to know that small cars don't have cooties.
I think Toyota, Honda, and Nissan would have done just fine if they hadn't spun off new divisions for their upscale cars. I think they used the popularity of their small cars to shake down dealers for big money. The money possibly helped offset development costs of the Lexus/Acura/Infinity, or was simply pocketed.
Hyundai's approach should be to give luxury car treatment to owners of the Equus down to the econoboxes.
My Hyundai dealer just moved into a great new building with a large lot. They now offer free pickup and delivery for service, so maybe they're going in that direction. I'll let you know if they serve latte and donuts.
again you're missing the point, the # of Genesis sales is actually impressive, but is also a number that pales in comparison to the number of much much cheaper cars they sell. The segment of the market that Hyundai largely operates in IS the problem. This is not anti-Hyundai at all because the same holds true for a good number of other mfgrs. with volumes all over the map.
Volume is almost always going to be good from a mfgrs point of view, but it is unquestionably bad from an exclusivity point of view. It is, for example the quantities of things like 3 series' and TLs sold that damage the exclusivity that is an component to those particular 'lux (or near lux) ' marques. 'A Hyundai in every driveway' would be great for some folks in Ulsan but bad for any intention that they might have to be recognized in the lux mkt.. Not a contradiction but certainly a 'Catch 22', don't believe they can have it both ways.
not such a bad idea
BTW if Hyundai had the brand name strength today that the J3 had back in 1990, then I assure you that Hyundai would have been more than happy to shake down its dealers as well!
they better - or they won't have any luxury cars. Your definition of a luxury car is simply some evaluation or summation of the amount of bling. Well, if that was true every mfgr has a 'luxury' car.
I'm contending that a luxury car has very little to with how subjectively 'luxurious' it is and more to do with questions of perceptions (read what other people think of it) , how hard it is to attain (read high prices) as well as exclusivity of not only the particular car we're talking about, but also the brand (read badge 'value') . And we really haven't mentioned yet, for example the engineering acumen generally involved in the production of anything luxury.
Almost every manufacturer does indeed have a "luxury" car, even Kia as long as it has the Amanti. Luxury is what is on the car. The Ford Taurus is a luxury car if you spend enough.
However, and this is where this discussion should change its title, not every manufacturer has a PRESTIGE car or is a prestige brand. Prestige is how the car is perceived by the general public, especially automobile enthusiasits. Exclusivity (cost) is usually a part of the definition.
BMW, MB, Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, Cadillac, Lincoln, Audi, Volvo, etc. are Prestige cars.
The Genesis is a luxury car, but not a prestige car. Maybe someday. Maybe the Equus will be a prestige car, but first regular people have to identify it as such and most don't even know what a Hyundai is.
Change this topic (or whatever it is) to: Is Hyundai ready for the PRESTIGE car market.
I don't see a 3 Series, MB C, Acura TSX and TL, Infiniti G, Lexus I or ES, Caddy C, almost any Lincoln (maybe ALL Lincolns at this point), Audi A4, and many Volvos as being "prestige" cars. But definitely the 7 Series, MB S, Infiniti Q, Lexus LS are "prestige" cars. As are all Bentleys, Rollses, Maybachs, Porsches, Ferrarris, and some others.
But the title of the discussion is what it is. Genesis competes in the "luxury" category, not the "prestige" category. As you said, maybe someday the Equus will compete in the "prestige" category. By price and features, I think it has a good shot at doing so.
You are of course free to create a new discussion topic, "Is There Room in the Prestige Market for Hyundai?"
Luxury is easily measured, and may or may not be extremely costly. Prestige cars defy metrics, and usually come with a high price tag that promotes exclusivity. You touched on a key to the definition of prestige. A manufacturer can not build a prestige brand. People (especially Hollywood people) must choose it as a prestige car, and there is no set formula.
Equus won't even be a prestige car, at least not at first. It may become one, depending on Hyundai's attention to such intangibles such as styling, handling, and feel. I don't think it is likely.
I agree with Backy that the bar should be higher for tagging a car as prestige. I never considered my Audi a prestige car, nor do I think a Volvo or Infiniti are prestige. I think Backy's question, "Is there room in the prestige market for Hyundai?" is baffling yet thought provoking, and impossible to answer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyundai_Kia_Automotive_Group
If you want prestige, buy at Barrett-Jackson! The '57 Chevy, the Viper, the DeSoto convertible, the old Mustang, the Model A roadster, the GTO, the Cobra, are all 'prestige' cars that few own, few can afford, and few drive. They are unique, fun to drive, or to just look at, but they are not luxury cars, or for that matter even luxurious!
So, don't look for prestige in the new car market, except for maybe Ferrari! But if you want a high quality, luxurious, but affordable, car that many people can afford and enjoy everyday, Genesis is an excellent place to start!
In my town, the parking lots are full of mundane BMW, Acura, and Porsche cars and SUVs, but I get more questions and praise for my custom Hemi Magnum than for any car that I have owned over the last 50 years!!
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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Being 'luxurious' does not a 'luxury' car make, a true luxury car must have a 'prestiguous' badge. A fact that VW (and Mazda) overlooked, the reason (among others) why their forays into the lux market failed and also a fact that the J3 recognized in the successful entries into the 'lux' market. Hyundai may never become any real factor (in the lux end of things) if they continue to want to deal in the lower ends of the market where they do.
I was already impressed and that opinion hasn't changed, but I made my wife sit in it and told her it was a Hyundai and all she could say was "wow".
The coupe isn't nearly up to the same standards, though. The seats are very nice, but besides that the interior is nothing special, only average. No soft touch dash, no fabric wrapped A-pillars, no thick carpets, no leather dash, no padded headliner, all things the sedan certainly has.
Back to the sedan, though, the 3.8 premium sitting there stickered at $36k, and an Outback 3.6R Limited near it was $34k. I'm a Subaru guy, but I gotta admit, at that price the Outback is a tough sell. Sure it's a wagon and has AWD, but the Genesis feels like a million bucks and the Outback is merely competent.
Of course a low $20s Outback has the same materials, minus leather, so I felt like the base models were a much better value.
Hmmm, Hollywood and prestige. Guess that means that the Prius was a prestige car, at least for the first couple of years, since people kept showing up at the Oscars in them. They're not so exclusive now though.
Although they did fare OK in Germany.
Is it just me, or is your argument circular? :confuse:
I'm sure when the New Beetle came out some of them showed up to red carpet events in those, yet there's no prestige there.
Swell.
Of course the Rabbit came back, too. :sick:
perhaps another mistake on Hyundai part :confuse: - and also a mistake that's been made before. If a mfgr is trying to establish a 'luxury' brand of some sort then it would seem the LAST thing they should do is come up with even cheaper models of that same brand. Acura has always been a peripheral lux brand in my mind simply because of all those Vigors/TSX (and even TL) rice rockets that came out later. Ditto for Infinit, a brand that I could never consider lux as long as they put the brand on those I and J30s, G20s etc.
The Equus is a good idea if Hyundai is really intent on a place in the luxury market, the Coupe a bad idea, IMO. The Equus (if it really is going to be 50k+ and make any real effort at being worth it) will elevate the brand, the $25-35k Coupe will have the opposite effect.
RWD makes the Genesis coupe unique, but it should still be called something else.
unique among the Asian entrants perhaps, but here in the States (and Australia) we do have things like RWD Camaros, Mustangs, and even Challengers with real honest to God V8s that define that particular niche. Hardly 'lux' brands though.
Sure, people will cross shop Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger, but they may also be looking at Miatas, WRXs, and G37 coupes.
I just think there are import buyers and then there are Big 3 buyers, and odds are they've already chosen their preference even before they set foot in the vehicle.
Hyundai shouldn't have equivocated on which market they were targeting. either the tuner coupe market or the luxury coupe, but not both. if they were going for luxury coupe, then they should have invested another $3,000 in the interior, refinement and ride of the car, still costing much less than a G37 coupe. if they were going for the tuner market, they should have boosted the turbo higher with a bigger intercooler and given the car more aggressive gearing and tires and done away with the Genesis name.
Look out next year! If the Coupe enjoys decent sales, I expect all sorts of packages and variants that will make everyone happy. Does the Tau fit in the Coupe? I think so!
heck, if Hyundai had learned any lessons then we wouldn't be buying a Genesis at a Hyundai dealer would we?
Maybe Hyundai isn't interested in re-hashing 1980's lessons. Maybe they're interested in teaching new lessons. Better pay attention!
They had better be - they are ignoring most of what has been proven to be successful. For Genesis to be a success at the 'luxury' table a lot of the baggage that comes with the Hyundai brand will have to be forgiven by the auto buyer. VWs latest 'failure' in this regard BTW was just a few short years ago, not 20. And Mazda's failure dates back into the mid 90s. So have the car buyers really changed?
What worked in circa 1989 will not work in the 21st Century. Maybe someday, but not any time soon.
Also, read Edmunds Inside Line First Drive of Equus and note comment on suspension.
Could Hyundai have done the same thing? Probably not, but only because a 'premium' Hyundai product had nowhere near the marketability as a 'premium' Toyota product back then. A Genesis at $50k, sold at a Lexus like Genesis only dealer, now that would likely qualify for a place in the luxury market. It would certainly be higher profit for Hyundai, and, of course, lower volume - both characteristics of a 'luxury' car for those dealers that do sell them.
Hyundai could go for low sales with higher profits, or high sales with lower profits. Either way, the profits are the same for Hyundai. Hyundai obviously prefers high sales and high market share, which makes life easier for the dealers. History tells us that market share can be very important. Being a history buff, I would think you know that. The 1989 business model for launching luxury cars obviously doesn't work in 2009. Hyundai's business model is working so far, even in a very bad market. That business model is simply to make the best cars possible for sale at an affordable price. That was Toyota's model before Lexus was unnecessarily spun off.
OK that's fine - but 'high sales and high market share' both argue against Genesis ever becoming a luxury marque.
Besides,what would demonstrate (to you) that the 1989 business model as you call it, doesn't work anymore? Much more recent history (VW) would illustrate exactly the opposite. Lexus' success back in the early 90s as well as its continued success today demonstrates that it (establishing the new brand) was hardly unnecessary then - and now. Making 'the best possible car for the best possible price' is also all well and good but also violates about half of what luxury cars and luxury brands are all about.
Remember that this isn't about what a fine car the Genesis might be - especially for the money - this is instead about the Genesis (as it is currently being sold) and also about Hyundai ever being accepted as a 'luxury car' and a 'luxury brand'. Two different things that I can't seem to get the 'H fanboy' to separate separately. :confuse:
Both types of people exist. People who are willing to pay a premium for a specific brand will probably not take the time to look at a Hyundai. But there are other buyers who focus on the car vs. the brand. That is the market Hyundai is after.
Any mfgr (Hyundai included) that sells price and 'bang for the buck' is going to cater to those that have the strengths to dismiss whatever value a label might have and also to ignore past sins.
To a lot of folks reliability=quality, something not always the case particularily among the luxury marques.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And no I don't think Hyundai could have done the same out of the gate, but perhaps that is part of their longer-term plan.
The Genesis comes out and proves it's the real deal, a legit effort. Follow it up with the Equus. Then, if things continue as well as they have so far, they'll get enough dealers lining up to pay those franchise fees.
Didn't Lexus also start with just 2 models? The LS400 and the ES250?
Heck, arguably Hyundai would have 2 good cars, Lexus only had one.
I'm not saying they have to do that, but that could be part of the plan, long-term.
PS No, I don't think the Tau V8 fits in the Coupe's engine bay, too wide IIRC