Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

wayne52

Bob, may I ask how much the Hyundai Associates Purchase Program discount is for you? i.e. How much of a savings you are willing to pass on because of your feelings toward Hyundai.

lemko

Yeesh!!! What reckless and self-destructive individual would agree to those terms? That's worse than a credit card! One must really really want a Land Rover!

lemko

Well, the Azera seems to be the forgotten "middle brother" between the Sonata and the Genesis. Plus the name Azera makes me think of the evil wizard Gargamel's cat Azrael from "The Smurfs."

backy

Why do you think stating useful, factual information such as the discount that Think Tank members receive would bring down an attack on you? :confuse:

BTW, it's easy to get into the Hyundai Think Tank if you're over 50. I should know.

bobad

There are even complaints on the official Hyundai Think Tank site-

But of course. Since you are a member, I expected as much.

bobad

There are alot of former MB, BMW, LEXUS and INFINITITY that have bought the Genesis and have no regret on their purchase. It's so sad that when a couple of bloggers get on this forum they trash Hyundai every chance they get.

When you're badly outnumbered, your only recourse it to be as loud as possible, in as many places as possible. Sort of like the old cowboy movies where they propped up guns and hats in the windows to make their numbers look greater.

toye

LOL I got a good chuckle out of your response!!!!!

stever

We're here to kick around whether Hyundai can crack into the luxury market.

We're not here to kick around each other. If you've had your say, kick back a while and let some other people talk about why they will or won't look at a Genesis instead of a Lexus.

Any lurkers want to join in?

toye

And I personally think they are because......

Not a day goes by that somebody stops me on the road, or in the parking lot and asks about my Genesis.

The young people love it which means the Genesis doesn't appeal to just older folks but to future luxury car owners.

When you see one going down the street it comands one's attention. It looks the part of luxury not a want a be.

This is and has reminded me when Lexus hit the streets in 89. Within 3-4 years it was considered luxury.

deltheking

Ho ho, I thought this was a genesis forum and not an anti-Lexus one...Just kidding !! Genesis putting pressure on Lexus LS!! I like that ! :shades:

marvin6

Why or why not look at a genesis you ask? I had been following the genesis for about 6 months and was ready to give it a shot. I went to the hyundai dealer with the intent of test driving and probably purchasing the v6 with tech package. Although a cash buyer (52 and financially retired for 5 years) I was returning from volunteer work on a habitat house with a friend when I stopped at the dealership. Perhaps it was the clothes I was wearing or something, but the salesman didn't even want to acknowledge my presence and actively avoided me. I know that the best interactions I'll ever have at a dealership are with sales and if that was an indication of what I was in for I decided to forego the experience. I've owned a number of brands of vehicles and this was my first hyundai experience and perhaps it is true about the lack of customer care/service with hyundai dealerships. We own an accord and a lexus and will likely continue driving them. I enjoy life and don't need the hassles of lackluster dealership experiences.

tjc78

Very well may have been that particular dealership. My dealer has been absolutely fantastic, before, during and after the sale. Don't discount the car simply because of one bad dealer.

espo35

Really. Come by my dealership, Bob. We have a whole back lot full of 'true luxury cars" you can choose from: Lexus, MBZ, Infiniti, BMW's & Acura. We'll hook you up with a nice discount.

These are all nice, low-mileage cars.................traded in for Genesis.

It used to be "cool" to drive one of these over-priced, under-warent-ed cars.

Not anymore.

"Value" is the new "cool".

captain2

BS! Hyundai customers are those that can't get financing anywhere else

this is likely not the case. Think about it, Hyundai (as well as the others that sell the cheaper cars) HAVE to have credit standards that are quite a bit more restrictive simply because who their buyers more frequently are. You won't find anybody on food stamps shopping at a luxury dealership but you might at mass market brand dealerships - like Hyundai, Ford Chevy (and others). Another reason why the Hyundai brand will never 'luxury' but also one that has little to do with particular models they are now making - like the Genesis sedan. Espo35's statements - while obviously influenced by who he works for - could certainly be quite true.
There are still some bodies in the street (Mitsubishi, for example) amongst those that tried to do both - relax their credit standards AND sell cheap cars. Obviously a bad mix - remember going into poorer areas of town and seeing a disportionate number of new Lancers. And lots of repos I'm sure. Ford, I seem to remember, did the same thing - got them in trouble as well.

You might be able to accuse the Koreans of lots of things but being bad businessmen is not one of them.

m4d_cow

Well, all I can say to Backy about my previous posts is this: don't take it just 100% literally, but take it logically. How is it logical to trade a Porsche for example, which (regardless of price) is a completely different car than a Genesis.

I'm not saying we should check every single model traded, but before getting too confident about those trade ins, again, look at it logically and think. Possibility that those traded in models aren't new to begin with does exist (please remember that not new does NOT necessarily mean old), so is the possibility of people trading in because of weakening economy or weakening financial capabilities.

Point is, it's ok to be confident about Hyundai, but please be reasonable. Saying a Genesis is comparable to a Porsche or a Lexus LS is like comparing apples and oranges at best.

If you think I'm bashing Hyundai for what I said, sure, whatever.

backy

Get real. People trade for different kinds of cars all the time. How many people in recent months traded in SUVs (Explorers et. al.) for small cars (Focus et. al.) under C4C? I personally traded in a full-sized minivan for a compact hatchback a few years ago. Then late last year traded a BMW for a used Jetta. So why is it so hard to understand that someone could trade a Porsche (a Cayenne maybe) for a Genesis? Needs change, tastes change.

No one is saying a Genesis is "comparable" to a Porsche, whether it's a Boxter or Cayenne or whatever. What has been put forward is that people are trading cars from brands like Porsche, and Lexus, for the Genesis.

As far as comparing a Lexus LS to a Genesis V8... I personally don't think that is so wild of a comparison as you do. Is a Genesis comparable in every way to the current LS? No, I don't think so. But I think they are more similar than they are different.

m4d_cow

Please read my edited post. Yes, needs may change, and taste too. But that doesn't mean those points I mentioned above (and before) isn't common.
As for your last point, well, it's simply different opinions then. I personally don;t think LS and Gen are by any means comparable except in size.

backy

Needs change, tastes change... and posts change!

stever

Not after 30 minutes. :-)

espo35

http://www.truedelta.com/comparisons101/LS-vs-Genesis-Sedan-price-comparison.php- - ?session_code=&aff=

Yes, I agree.... there's no comparison.....Genesis smokes the LS.

captain2

we already knew it is a bunch cheaper.
Is there anything you Hyundai salespeople can talk about OTHER than how cheap your products are :confuse:

lemko

I guess Huey Lewis was right. It's hip to be square!

backy

Not sure how many Hyundai sales professionals are posting here, but there's also reliability (CR Recommended and "Above Average" in its first year), powertrain (only 5 horses less than LS), fuel economy (bests LS), and warranty for a few.

lemko

Sure they're trading in Lexi, Bimmers, and Benzes: 1990 Lexus ES250s, 1987 BMW 318is, and 1984 Mercedes 190s they got from the BHPH lot! :P

backy

How about...

06 M45
06 530i
02 745i
07 Acura MDX (x 2)
08 535i
07 Acura TL
08 Cadillac DTS
06 330i
06 Infiniti M
06 330i
07 Acura MDX
04 LS430
08 GS430
06 M35 Sport
06 330i
06 M35
07 335i Coupe
07 Escalade

See #2032. I don't see any 1990 ESes, 1987 318is, or 1984 Merc 190s in that list.

espo35

Check out these trade-ins and you tell me.....

http://www.cammisahyundai.com/preowned.inventory.php

carolinabob

Automobile Magazine, Dec., page 116, Fleet Updates column.
19,021 miles: "I'm sensing subtle signs of age in the way it clunks over bumps" says Jamie Kitman. "But I continue to think it's a fine luxury car at a fair shake less than luxury price."
IMO, a luxury car would not show signs of age this quickly, especially one that has been set up and tuned for the magazine doing the testing. If this one shows signs this early, what about the ordinary ones coming off the dealers' lots?
This has come up too, too many times in owner reviews and professional reviews for it to be an unusual occurance.

wayne52

The sonata has a history of "clunking" that has gone for years and seems to have continued all the way through the current model. Now the genesis? Does hyundai not get the message that people don't want to hear clunking from their supsensions? Do they not have people capable of building suspensions to industry standards? Maybe they need to hire someone else to do their suspensions. How do they expect to market a luxury car that has suspension clunking issues? It seems to me that perhaps they want to succeed, but they are "not ready for primetime" yet. Labeling something "luxury" doesn't make it luxury. It's stuff like this suspension issue that will keep hyundai from being the car company it wants to be.

bobad

Wayne, most of the clunking complaints found on the Internet are from 1 source.

m4d_cow

Like I said, it's easy to point these out. Yet none of us will ever find out how many of those are traded in vs. older or less luxurious cars. Or why those people traded in their cars. As far as I heard it's more of economical reason in most occasions, they need to save cash. This recession, in more ways than one, is a huge blessing to Hyundai.

Depending on it's competition the Genesis can either be a firecracker or an atom bomb.

Btw I'm curious. Hyundai states this car as a near luxury car to compete with the likes of Lexus ES not GS, Infiniti G not M, and so on. If even Hyundai thinks this way, then why are you insisting on placing it higher? :confuse:

wayne52

That may be. I have driven four sonatas and they all had suspension clunking noises. On a chilly saturday morning about a month ago, I test drove a sonata, camry, and accord. On the sonata the front end was clunking during the entire 15 min drive. The salesman told me the car had been sitting for awhile and it was the cold tires. I didn't give it much thought until I got home, but realized the back tires on the sonata were just as cold as the front tires and they didn't make any noise. Neither the honda or toyota had any clunking noises. I have never owned a hyundai, but was considering one. But when magazine writers talk about suspension clunking - on a car marketed as a luxury car - I have to give them the benefit of the doubt as I don't think they have any hidden agendas. I have toured the hyundai plant in Montgomery and was impressed. I wish hyundai nothing but the best. But if they want to play with the big boys they need to build like the big boys.

m4d_cow

I wish hyundai nothing but the best. But if they want to play with the big boys they need to build like the big boys.

Well said, wayne52. :shades:

wayne52

I don't mean that to be nasty at all. I'm retired military and served two tours in Korea. I love Koreans and think the world of them. They put a lot of pressure on many companies and improve the market place in whatever they do. I wanted to buy my son a sonata as I saw it as a well-priced car with outstanding safety ratings. But four for four on the clunking? I bought him a camry (for college graduation). I was interested in a genesis for my wife and myself. Knowing my own experiences from the sonata and seeing this magazine writer comment on the genesis will probably steer me away from the genesis. Most military people (like myself) are typically conservative and I will probably go with the "known" vs. the "yet to be proven" when I spend my money. I'm not knocking the genesis at all. Just not willing to invest my money in something that may have issues being identified at an early stage of its life.

backy

As far as I heard it's more of economical reason in most occasions, they need to save cash.

How many Genesis owners have you talked to re the reason they traded their luxury cars for a Genesis? Or where have you obtained the information that most Genesis buyers are trading their current cars for economic reasons? And even if they are... why does it matter even one little bit??

IMO the Genesis competes with other RWD V6 and V8 luxury and near-luxury cars, including the GS and M, and the 5 Series. And because of its price point, it also competes with lower-end cars such as the ES. It attracts buyers from both worlds, broadening the potential customer base for the Genesis. Hyundai's VP of Marketing confirms that the Genesis was created to compete with the likes of the 5 Series. In features and performance, it is much closer to the GS and M than FWD models like the ES.

backy

If the "clunking" were viewed as a significant problem by the author, I doubt he would have said the Genesis is "a fine luxury car."

Also, I assume since you agree with the comments re clunking, you also agree with the author's assessment that the Genesis is a fine luxury car.

espo35

As a Hyundai Service Manager, I drive Sonatas every day and have yet to hear one with a clunk.

I wonder if the dealer Wayne52 visited is doing a proper Pre Delivery Inspection (PDI).
These cars are shipped with 45 lbs of air in the tires, during the PDI, they should be reset to 30 lbs. Maybe they're not???????

colloquor

I don't own a Sonata, but I've rented them numerous times on business trips. Some trips have not just been from airports for a few days rental while at trade shows, but some for extensive 1,700 mile drives. I've also rented an Azera a couple of times by the luck of the draw. I've never heard any clunking from the front suspension of any Sonata or Azera I've rented over the past 4 years. Rear clunking, well... sorta. I think it's really more under damping by the shocks/struts than clunking per se, especially on I-635 in the DFW area, one of the most wallowing interstate slabs I've ever driven on in the USA especially just east of 97/121 and the the airport.

backy

Since the Genesis has a totally different suspension design than the Sonata, and there has been to date exactly ONE comment about the Genesis' suspension "clunking" (and that from someone who thinks the Genesis is a "fine luxury car" despite the "clunking"), maybe we don't need to start the Sonata suspension debate all over again here? :sick:

colloquor

QSL...

donna388

"most of the clunking complaints found on the Internet are from one source."

I know people who have traded their Azeras because of problems with the suspensions.
The only reason we haven't done so also is because of the poor resale value of the Azera.
Why do you suppose the Azera along with other Hyundais suffer from poor resale value?

We presently are litigating ours under this states Lemon Law Song-Beverly act
mainly because Hyundai refuses to try to and cannot make our example right.
What really gets to me is that their attornies say that there are
no other complaints about this problem! Say what?
How many people have complained and how many sets of front shocks has Hyundai
replaced, and they have the nerve to sit accross the table and say that
there are no problems, and that our case is the only one. :lemon:

Before we purchased our Azera, I tried to rent one for a weekend trip to the S F bay area.
There were none available because Enterprise had already retired theirs, so we rented a
2006 Sonata V6 instead and after driving it 1000 miles in three days, concluded
that it was indeed a good car and on that strength, we bought an Azera.
BIG MISTAKE. Why?
Not so much that there is this common problem which many Azera owners are
experiencing, but mainly because Hyundai flat refuses to
step up to and properly address this problem. :lemon:
This same thing is evidently true with the Sonata and the Genesis lines also.
Hyundai just keeps bringing out new lines and abandons the old ones.
Why can't they stand behind their cars and take care of these problems?
Therefore, I say that no one should possibly think that any
Hyundai can ever be considered a true Luxury Automobile Line.

wayne52

I know nothing of the suspensions in either car. I'm only a consumer. The genesis looks like a fine car with excellent appointments and I hope those who buy them are pleased with them. But several things come to me immediately. ONLY ONE magazine writer mentioned the suspension issue? Is there a predetermined or magic number of people who have to complain about the suspension before it is perceived as a problem? If you were the "one" who purchased a luxury hyundai and had a suspension beginning to clunk at 20,000 miles would that be acceptable? If this has been an issue for the sonata for years and is now being mentioned with the genesis, I'm afraid I'd have to think hyundai has some problems in building suspensions. Again, I wish them luck, but as for me I think I'm going to pass on this one at this point. Historically, I believe hyundais have sold on price. When compared to other (luxury or non-luxury) vehicles, the genesis is a bargain..... but then again at what price?

espo35

"ONLY ONE magazine writer mentioned the suspension issue? Is there a predetermined or magic number of people who have to complain about the suspension before it is perceived as a problem? If you were the "one" who purchased a luxury hyundai and had a suspension beginning to clunk at 20,000 miles would that be acceptable"

Gee, Wayne....are you suggesting no car should ever have a problem and it should satisy 100% of the people 100% of the time?

Find me that car and I'll buy two!!

wayne52

Not at all. I've owned my share of cars with problems. I'm just suggesting that there seems to be a trend with suspension issues and hyundai and the genesis may not be immune from it.

espo35

Fair enough. I've been with Hyundai almost six years and honestly haven't had any prevalent issue with any of their cars.

But, peace of mind is priceless. If you bought a Genesis, maybe you'd be concentrating so hard on every noise your head would explode!! (Not a warranty item)!

wayne52

Peace of mind is priceless. I do like many things about the genesis, but not ready to take the leap until the potential suspension issue plays out. All cars have problems. It's unavoidable. But some have histories that make a buyer stay away and I don't know if hyundai suspensions will fall into that category or not. Time will tell. For me personally, over the years I have learned that peace of mind comes best when not buying union-built cars, but that's another issue.

espo35

Azeras did have a suspension noise for which "upgraded" shocks became available.

There was/is one guy out here who has made it a crusade to "inform" everyone who will read his posts about the "high-level cover-up" and clandestine hush-up attempts by Hyundai to avoid responsibility for the thousands of people killed or maimed by said noise.....

marvin6

Some people make issues their crusades lol I do have a friend with an amanti and it has some suspension issues. First time I rode with him it was obvious so I asked him if he heard anything and he said he didn't. To him it was transportation with a GPS system. Maybe some people are just a little more sensitive to those things.

backy

ONLY ONE magazine writer mentioned the suspension issue?

Yes, I've seen only one reviewer comment mentioning "clunking" from the suspension. Others have mentioned things like "unsettled" over uneven pavement and stuff like that. But only one saying "clunking." If there's others, I know some folks who post here regularly who will probably bring them to our attention.

We've also had numerous owners reports here and in the Genesis discussion, and I don't recall any of them saying there's "clunking" going on.

So I think it's a huge reach for some folks to equate this mention of "clunking" with whatever is going on with the Sonata.

carolinabob

Wayne, unlike some on this forum you appear to be sincerely interested in learning as much as you can about a vehicle. If so, you are the reason why I continue to post and subject myself to attacks from the very few.
If you go back to the beginning of the 2009 Genesis forum and even to this one, you will find many, many different people complaining about the ride/suspension in Genesis. It is far, far worse on the earliest Azera postings.
I purchased an Azera in 07 because of all the favorable publicity, but unfortunately did not know of the sites that were showing more critical information. I have had three sets of shocks in 15,000 miles, all replaced at no cost and all without improvement. I even had an independent, certified BBB Auto Line Automotive Expert test the car and he concluded that there is a defect in the suspension. HMA continues to say "operates as designed." I guess in reality it does, but not as it should.
The Azera and the Genesis are fantastically equipped cars for a very low price. Question is: how do they keep the price so low? I have heard the cars are produced by union members and they frequently go on strike, but I have no personal knowledge of this. If true, this supposedly would just add to the price of the cars. I have also read that the upper management for Hyundai Motors in Korea came out of the other businesses that Hyundai operates and not the automotive end.

These are some of the Professional sources that I have cited many, many times before. I have kept a list because certain posters here keep saying it is only me or only one review, etc. This list has not been updated since early 10/09, so does not include ones since then or the new one from Kitman in Automobile magazine. Also, these are the professional sources, not the many, many postings (and NOT from me) that show up on Hyundai-forums.com, Hyundai Think Tank, Genesisowners.com and HERE.
Consumer Reports, 02/09 and 10/09, Motor Trend, July 2009, Road & Track May 2009(Test Notes:Handling), AutomobileMag, May 2009, AutomobileMag, March 2009 (Kitman column), USA Today, James R. Healey, Nov. 08 report, Car & Driver, Oct. 2008, AutomobileMag, Oct 2008, Edmunds.com Inside Line, 04/09, Mike Hanley, Cars.com, 07/08, ConsumersGuide.com test review of Genesis.
Best and most objective and informative site I have found on all cars is consumersguide.com, but the actual URL is something like howthingswork.com/cars ( I think). they have a complete system by system test drive review with points and narratives.
Good luck if you are looking. As a retired military officer, my sentiments are; Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Maybe Hyundai will eventually get there, but it will take a paradime shift at both the US and Korean HQ in my opinion.

carolinabob

"Also, I assume since you agree with the comments re clunking, you also agree with the author's assessment that the Genesis is a fine luxury car."

Not for me because ride is the most important thing to me in a luxury car, along with all the other amenities. It may very well be for some people though and I wish them well.
You won't believe this, but I had my name on the list at the dealer's to get a 2010, but in final analysis too many questions have been left unresolved for me to take a chance on another Hyundai product. Also, did not like the fact that it is no longer their top vehicle and look what happened to Azera when it dropped from number one to number two in the hierarchy.
BTW, what is truly significant is the amount of money Hyundai spends on magazine advertising. As one doctor told me who did disability exams for lawyers and also a government agency when I asked how his reports could be so different. His reply "You know who is paying you when you do the exam." Does the same hold true for websites, magazines and even arbitrators who are paid by manufacturers? Make your own conclusion, but does make you wonder how bad it might be if they are critical at all. Might explain the positive overall summaries though.