with something for everyone under 1 roof. And that is precisely what the lux buyer DOESN"T want - read those quotes/postings that lokki dug up - it is important to the lux buyer to feel and be treated special - and they are willing to pay for the privilege. Even the contention that the Genesis may lack the refinement of its much more costly 'competitors' really makes little difference - they want to be treated like a king (even if it is only for an hour or two), they want some recognition once they get on the road, and they don't want to associate with the rest of us plebs.
Spinning off a new brand has no benefit tor the average Hyundai owner, so why should Hyundai do that? Hyundai, just like the others, couldn't give a damn about 'benefit to the average Hyundai owner'. They worship the checkbook just like everybody else. So, why should they do that - kinda depends on where they want to go. I assure you that Lexus makes whole lot more profit/unit than Toyota - so why not Genesis. Gives them a reason to raise their prices, maximize profits, and lastly a better vehicle to introduce more even more costly models.
"The company also has only one luxury vehicle, the Hyundai Genesis. By way of comparison, most other automakers have a full lineup of cars marketed under separate luxury brands.
Some experts say that Hyundai may need to come out with its own separate luxury brand if it is going to compete effectively in that higher-profit part of the market.
"Luxury buyers buy image, and the image of Hyundai is not on the short list for most luxury buyers," said Toprak. "You're going to have a tough time selling a $50,000 Hyundai, even if the car is worth that kind of money."
I see Hyundai and Kia on a similar plane -- they are doing well enough in their own niches, but they'll have to make a big splash in the upper tiers before most people will seriously consider dropping $50k on their product.
This is kind of what killed Packard. Packard reached too far down in the market and took its reputation down with it. The Packard 120 may have been necessary to survive the Depression and should've been dropped when better economic times returned. The Packard Six is what truly killed the company's luxury image - especially when you were seeing them used as taxis.
I don't think somebody in the market for a luxury car wants to be in the same place where some credit-challenged individual is pleading to get 72 months financing on an Accent.
Even the contention that the Genesis may lack the refinement of its much more costly 'competitors' really makes little difference - they want to be treated like a king (even if it is only for an hour or two), they want some recognition once they get on the road, and they don't want to associate with the rest of us plebs.
Then go elsewhere looking for a car. Hyundai is not now and probably not ever for you.
There is going to be an ever-increasing market consisting of people that are too smart and practical to pay for "the luxury treatment" they will only use 1-2 times over the lifetime of the car. Back in your day, cars needed a lot of service (some "exclusive" cars still do), so the perks were important. New laws allow you to get warranty service down the street, so you don't have to drive to the city to your dealership. Cars are getting so reliable that dealer service is rarely needed. My last 3 vehicles have required perhaps 2 hours total waiting at the dealership, and 240K miles, virtually trouble free. Am I being cheated?
It's also slightly above the industry average, although well less than Ford, GM, or Chrysler.
This information kind of surprised me. I understand that the other companies are giving rebates AND losing sales while Hundai is holding its own.or gaining sales.
Still, I wonder which Hyundai models have serious incentives on them. It would be interesting to know. I also wonder if Hyundai has an average of $3K profit in their vehicles. Are they losing money but making it up in volume?
Looks like the money varies between $500 to $1500 (or none, except for a $500 military incentive). And I don't know the whole product line, but it looks like it covers most '09 and 2010 Hyundais.
A new Genesis brand (and a dedicated Genesis dealer) occurs to me to be a way to speed that process of lux acceptance, and eventually should be inevitable if Hyundai is ever going to produce a luxury car and/or have a luxury brand.
From an earlier post: Don't understand what you are trying to say here, but other than simple vehicle content I don't believe there is anything about a "Genesis" (if we consider it a brand) that would justify a higher price.
Ignoring the circular reasoning in the first quote ("A new Genesis brand ... should be inevitable if Hyundai is ever going to ... have a luxury brand"), you are saying that there is nothing about a separate "Genesis" brand that would justify a higher price, but you still believe Hyundai should undertake the effort and cost of establishing a Genesis brand.
Since the Genesis sedan is selling quite well w/o a separate brand, the question is... what is the business value to Hyundai for establishing a new brand, if they won't be able to leverage the new brand by charging more, as do luxury brands today?
Since the Genesis sedan is selling quite well is It really :confuse: how about comparing its sales with those cars that compete in the same category - like Avalons, Maxs etc. etc. - premium trims of upscale sedans - in or around that $40k pricetag. now if you want to compare with some true lux cars then of course it is selling well -it should becuase it is playing to a much much bigger audience - a $40k sedan vs, the limited numbers that can and will spend $60k.
and they seem to be making some progress - don't they? No longer is the Korean car the dregs of the auto world - that honor now going to some manufacturers a lot closer to home
How about comparing like cars, e.g. RWD V8 sedans to other RWD V8 sedans, with luxury features? Sorry, Maximas and Avalons don't play in that market. Genesis does. So do cars like the GS, M, 5 Series, E Class, and CTS. Those are the best comparisons for sales to the Genesis. Don't penalize the Genesis because it doesn't carry the $$$$ "brand premium" of other cars.
Are you downplaying the accomplishments of Hyundai recently. I mean Hyundai increased marketshare from about 3% to about 7% in just 4 years. October, Hyundai incresed sales 27% while Toyonda and GMFORD slipped miserably.
Beside the fact that you continue to come here with an agenda, without any objective reasoning leads me to ask you this question. What do you have Hyundai? What did they personally do to you to make you spill out back-handed compliments, skewed criticisms, and quite frankly degrading points then cheapen the Hyundai brand?
exactly, I saw the maxima last saturday, though it was pretty nice. It wasn't in the same league as the Hyundai Genesis. The Genesis was sexier outside and more refined inside. Plus, the Genesis was actually cheaper than the 35K price that it asked for. Secondly, the white 3.8 that I looked at was damn sexy, with the genesis badge.
I think some backward-looking people are not very good at reading signs and picking up on trends. They stick with the same brand "because". That's fine with me as long as it's for the right reason. However, I don't see the point in someone debating a car they would never consider owning for the wrong reasons. They add nothing constructive to the debate.
If someone doesn't want to buy a Genesis because it's the wrong size, don't like the styling, the price is too high, the warranty too short, the quality too low, it doesn't have a fridge in the back seat, that's fine. However, not wanting to own a Genesis because of the country in which it's manufactured (or its lineage) is not rational, and makes the entire debate irrational.
How about comparing like cars, e.g. RWD V8 sedans to other RWD V8 sedans Why not - how about because, unlike you and me, the bulk of the buyers in the large sedan class wouldn't care about RWD (until they get stuck somewhere where FWD might have worked better) or even know the difference from a performance perspective - even after driving them. The large upscale sedan market is one populated by 50 and 60 somethings and not Speed Racer wannabes. People are more likely buying a large sedan for its size and utlility, comfort, as well as for its price category NOT where the drive wheels happen to be. That is why the Genesis is more properly compared with the Avs/Maxs of the world. We are not talking about the pony car market here - where Ford once had a revolt on its hands when it tried to FWD the Mustang (it was called the Probe). You and I may place a lot of import on where the drive wheels are on something like the Genesis is - but I think you seriously overestimate its importance from a sales perspective. Furthermore, even excluding the true lux sedans, the Genesis is not the only RWD large sedan on the market and is not even close to the cheapest - you really want to compare it to something like a G8 (a car that will leave the Genesis 4.6 in the dust), a 300 Hemi or SRT- ditto, or even something really bad like a Grand Marquis (sure a lot cheaper)?
You and I may place a lot of import on where the drive wheels are on something like the Genesis is - but I think you seriously overestimate its importance from a sales perspective.
Then why do ALL of the luxury sedans have RWD, if luxury sedan owners place no importance on it? FWD is less expensive to build, right? So why don't the luxury automakers cut their costs and go FWD, like they do on their low-end models like the ES?
The G8 is NOT a luxury car. It's a performance sedan. And it's dead, along with the rest of Pontiac. The Grand Marquis a luxury car, or even a near-luxury car? You must be joking. The 300 in its higher-end trim is competition for the Genesis, I agree, although IMO not much competition. Its sales are down 43% YTD, despite fire-sale pricing. But it is RWD--like the Genesis, GS, M, 5 Series, CTS etc.
However, not wanting to own a Genesis because of the country in which it's manufactured (or its lineage) is not rational, and you think I'm judgemental! Where a car is manfactured, and supporting this great country of ours IS still very much a motivating factor in car buying decisions for many many folks. It is not irrational at all. Even in my case, the fact that the Avalon I drive is one of the most American made cars available in its class was certainly a motivating factor in my decision to buy it. Perhaps that is actually rational :confuse:
FYI I don't happen to hold the Genesis' lineage against it per se, but I certainly would rather see at least some of my money stay where it belongs. That too is rational, don't you agree?
Then why do ALL of the luxury sedans have RWD a car enthusiast should know the answer to that question. 300 hp to the front wheels is an accident waiting to happen (torque steer) and furthermore the superior weight balances (something approaching 50-50) offered by RWD setups makes for less understeer and generally better balanced handling and braking. Unless, of course, you happen to be FoMoCo 'reengineering' a 60s vintage LTD. The point here being that RWD doesn't always have to be better. My original point, however, was that the large sedan buyer will generally never notice the difference and even if he/she notices, they don't care, and won't shop this class because something is or ( is not) RWD. Advantages of FWD - there are a few - not the least of which improved winter drivability, generally better FE and better space efficiency. RWD in itself is NOT a luxury car qualification, IMO. If BMW, for example, has mind failure, and decides to make a FWD 5 series at 50 or 60k, and while I'm confident they would do a better job engineering out some of the natural problems that come with FWD - the resulting car would still be 'luxury'. Cutting costs and going FWD is exactly what they did do, incidentally, back in the 70s/80s - and for good reason. The G8, BTW, although I think its fate is still up in the air a bit is supposed to be rebadged as a Chevy Caprice - if GM can figure out a way to get us to pay for a new plant in this country that will also build the new Camaro.
Looks like the money varies between $500 to $1500 (or none, except for a $500 military incentive). And I don't know the whole product line, but it looks like it covers most '09 and 2010 Hyundais. That's in my zip code at least. New Car Incentives and Rebates Kia hood money looks closer to $3,000 than Hyundai
Steve -
Thanks for the info.... Very interesting. I would speculate that this suggests that Hyundai has succeeded in improving its image more than KIA has so far. Of course, they've both made by the same company now, so it's probably fair to assume that KIA is being held to the same quality goals as Hyundai.
This might suggest that perception of KIA trails behind reality...
Of course, they've both made by the same company now, so it's probably fair to assume that KIA is being held to the same quality goals as Hyundai not according to CR where Kia lags significantly in quality/reliability behind presumably identical Hyundai branded products. Think maybe Hyundai does have different QC procedures for the different brands?
Probably not. This is why Renault owns them today.
Maybe the name of this thread should be "Should Hyundai follow Nissan into the red and get POWNED by someone else?" not so sure that this is entirely accurate - Renault had already loaned Nissan several billion francs circa the late 90s and further installed a Spaniard (?) Carlo Ghosn in to run it. By 2002-03 and under Ghosn's guidance, Nissan had transformed itself into a quite successful (and profitable) mfgr. with what was generally recognized as one of the industry best product lines. Infiniti, OTH, made great strides into lux land acceptance with the 2nd (and current) rendition of the 'M'. Whether they got a bit flushed with success or whether their current problems are more of a direct result of our economic morass, I don't know, but I don't believe that Renault's 'ownership' of Nissan did anything but help - at least initially. :confuse:
RWD in itself is NOT a luxury car qualification, IMO.
Agreed. As I mentioned, the G8 is not a luxury car, nor is the Grand Marquis or even (arguably) the 3 Series. But RWD along with luxury features and performance as found in cars like the Genesis (esp. 4.6), GS, M, 5 Series et. al. make for a luxury car.
the G8 is not a luxury car, nor is the Grand Marquis the G8 certainly with a spartan interior by any reasonable lux car standards but if your priority is performance it pputs even tyhe Gen 4.6 to shame. I'll challenge you though on the other one - the GM can be fitted with about every 'luxury' (or doodad) known to mankind, is sold under Ford's upscale brand with MSRPs that will get well into the 30s - and it is RWD - as antiquated as it is. So what is it about the Gen Sedan that makes it luxury in your mind but not the GM (or even the $50k TC). To me it's easy - none of the 3 are luxury cars.....
The Grand Marquis is not a luxury car for the simple fact that you can buy a bare-bones new one for well under $20k, and it is basically the same car as the old Ford full-sized RWD sedan (Crown Vic). Remember the Cimmaron? A Cadillac (GM's luxury brand), with lots of doodads, and therefore a luxury car in your mind, right?
The Genesis sedan has the looks of a luxury car, the power of a luxury car, the accouterments of a luxury car, the suspension design of a luxury car (even if not currently tuned to everyone's taste), and is priced at the lower end of the luxury car price spectrum. Also, there is no similar vehicle in Hyundai's stable that costs a lot less with less equipment, unlike many non-luxury cars that are tarted-up basic family cars, designed first and foremost to be family cars.
But RWD along with luxury features and performance as found in cars like the Genesis (esp. 4.6), GS, M, 5 Series et. al. make for a luxury car.
I'd go a step further & say that offering buyers a choice between RWD & AWD has become a defining characteristic of the luxury car market. And here in the snowbelt, any manufacturer trying to sell a lux sedan that's RWD only won't move many cars.
I live in a very import-friendly, relatively affluent NYC suburb, & I don't think I've seen a dozen Genesis sedans in the past year. I see loads of Infinit Ms - the car that, IMO, most closely resembles & directly competes with the Genesis - & 95+ percent of them are the x (AWD) variant. Almost no one buys a RWD Infiniti M around here, so it shouldn't come as a great surprise that almost no one buys a Genesis, either.
Personally, I think that the benefits of AWD are oversold, at least around here. (We really don't get all that much snow.) But what matters is not what I think - it's what the vast majority of lux car shoppers think. And it's pretty clear that for the most part, they won't even consider a luxury sedan that's not available with AWD.
The Genesis might be a huge success south of the Mason-Dixon line, but it's no more than a footnote on the sales charts around here. It's too bad, really. Given the current economic climate, a value-priced premium sedan could peel away a lot of sales from more established brands - but only if the newcomer has the right equipment. As it is, the Genesis is a failure (or close to it) in the colder parts of the country, no matter how well it's selling in the South.
The Genesis needs optional AWD far more than it needs a separate showroom.
lots of doodads, and therefore a luxury car in your mind, right?
on the contrary, doodads, IMO, have little if anything to do with luxury car 'qualifications' but a lot to do (obviously) with any given car being 'luxurious'. The GM properly equipped can be a luxurious car, as can higher end Avs, Maxs and the like. Pretty much ALL manufacurers sell luxurious cars but few can offer a true luxury car. It's funny BTW that you should mention that the Marquis is too cheap to be a luxury car - because so is the Genesis. The Genesis Sedan (IMO, of course) - a ' luxurious' car that can never be a 'luxury' car because of its brandname, because of where it is sold and what it is sold with, and finally because of how much it is sold for. The other qualities that you mention definitely make the Gen Sedan a screaming value - but in and of themselves they can not overcome those 4 fundamental problems.
Personally, I think that the benefits of AWD are oversold, at least around here. (We really don't get all that much snow.) a big time understatement, if there ever was one - what are generally perceived as 'safety' features get a lot of hype and are quite 'fashionable' even if those features are of (arguably) negligible value. Folks think they need things like AWD because they are told it is good when in fact they have little or no cause to use it. Just like you say there are very few places in this entire country that the roads get bad enough often enough to justify the weight and FE penalties that AWD systems carry with them 365 days a year. The Genesis might indeed profit by offering some sort of AWD system because of all the BS hype, but it is indeed refreshing to hear from somebody that understands that RWD vehicles are not the answer to everything good in the auto business. Unless, of course, we really do want to retrain 90% of the drivers on the road today
The Genesis Sedan (IMO, of course) - a ' luxurious' car that can never be a 'luxury' car because of its brandname, because of where it is sold and what it is sold with, and finally because of how much it is sold for.
So, let's see...
* Slapping a "Genesis" badge on the trunk makes a Genesis (presto/change-o) a luxury car, right? * BMWs are commonly sold alongside $16k econo-hatchbacks, thus BMWs are not luxury cars, right? Cadillacs are often sold alongside $10k econoboxes, so Cadillacs are not luxury cars either, right? * Audis, BMWs, Cadillacs, and other luxury makes sell for about the same price as the Genesis 4.6. So Audis, BMWs, and Cadillacs are not luxury brands and can never offer luxury cars, right?
“Brand loyalty has shrunk because of widespread improvements in the products,” said James Farley, Ford Motor Company’s head of marketing. “The ‘trust factor’ is more or less the same for most cars.”
Hyundai has carved out a 4 percent share of the American market because its vehicles are less expensive than Toyota’s but are perceived as just as reliable, said Mr. Spinella of CNW Marketing Research. The company differentiated itself further this year when it offered to take back cars if the owners lost their jobs and could not afford to make payments.
“Today, people are very focused on value,” said Jeremy Anwyl, president of the car-research Web site Edmunds.com in Santa Monica, Calif. “Hyundai took a unique position to address that.”
Slapping a "Genesis" badge on the trunk makes a Genesis (presto/change-o) a luxury car, right? * BMWs are commonly sold alongside $16k econo-hatchbacks, thus BMWs are not luxury cars, right? - no slapping a 'Genesis' badge on the car doesn't in itself change anything, but anything that would serve to distance the car from its more mundane heritage can't hurt - that's exactly what the J3 did, isn't it? And it worked..... - what BMW dealer sells anything (even preowned) for $16k never mind anything new? A Cadillac for $10k? One of us is living on a different planet :surprise: - V8 Audis, MBs, Lexii, and even Cadillacs (barely a lux brand) don't sell for $40k or even $45k they sell for $60k and sometimes a whole lot more.
I don't think you can extrapolate Hyundai's success at the low end of the market uniformly across the spectrum of car buyers and declare the end of brand loyalty.
Buyers at the bottom end of the market are going to be more swayed by price savings than those at the top end.
If you are making $50K per year, then a $5K difference in price for a vehicle is a very significant figure. If you are making $150K, then that $5K savings doesn't influence your behavior as much.
Further, as the "Luxury doesn't just equal gadgets" group has been saying all along, luxury buyers are rather more concerned with image than they are about value. It is possible to change their thinking but it takes a long time (see Lexus).
Loading a Ford Pinto with every modern gadget won't change its image to that of a luxury car. Stripping all the Gizmos out of a Jaguar (in the short run) won't change the luxury image of Jaguar.
Additionally, lowering price too much can cause a brand to lose its luxury image. This is the danger of the game that BMW is playing - the One Series priced too low is actually bad for them. They may have gone too far, and begun to fade their image.
Same with the little Mercedes C230 hatchback. Bad move.
If anyone can have one, then the status fades away.
The company differentiated itself further this year when it offered to take back cars if the owners lost their jobs and could not afford to make payments.
a stroke of marketing genius if there ever was one, kinda like those 100k warranties. Hyundai sells enough cars that logically you would think somebody might have returned a Hyundai or two - wonder if it actually happened enough that it caused any great influx of slightly used Hyundais. versus, of course, the sales they gained by the whole 'Assurance' concept. Again, kinda like the warranties. Sure did force the hand of some of those other mass market brands though, didn't it? If you think about it, there would have to be some serious fine print involved (car mileage and condition) and they could only offer such a thing to those with A++ credit and perhaps to those who have been employed a longer time and are less likely perhaps to lose the job in the first place. As I understood it however, it is more like a max dollar vehicle value loss they were actually covering, that residual value being determined by them - of course. You wonder how they could lose - marketing 101 plain and simple.
$70k+ BMWs sell alongside $16k Minis. BMW shoppers don't seem to mind mingling with the "low lifes" looking for an inexpensive little hatchback. Similarly, there's quite a few Cadillac + Chevy dealerships, selling $50k Caddys right next to $10k Aveos--and those are from (gasp) Korea!!! But somehow the dealerships manage to sell the Caddys.
no slapping a 'Genesis' badge on the car doesn't in itself change anything...
It is possible to change their thinking but it takes a long time (see Lexus). think your post is right on target - do have this one comment: - I seem to remember the LS having a much more immediate acceptance as a viable alternative (and as a new 'luxury' brand) even amongst the German car lovers. perhaps because Toyota was such a highly respected brand back then - a respect that it did take Toyota 15 or 20 years to earn.
really digging deep aren't we - a BMW is NOT a Mini even if you can find one that is a mere $16k and an Aveo is certainly no Cadillac. I do live in a City of more than just a few million BTW and out of several hundred dealers we have in the area don't find a listing of a single one that sells Cadillacs and Chevys at the same place - so even if you do think that Caddys and Chevys are the same, you're not going to buy them at the same place . And no a Lexus is NOT a Toyota even if there was such a thing as a single location dealer that did sell both. Also something that doesn't exist around here, and I'm sure something that Toyota made a matter of policy back in 1989. All part of becoming a luxury brand. And part of the problem - there is no such thing as a 'Genesis' dealer and one of the things there needs to be if the Genesis 'branded' cars are ever going to have a chance to graduate to 'luxury'.
Being able to return a car is a real luxury and a 'luxury' that Hyundai's marketing mavens knew damn well would do exactly what it did - sell some cars! Only ostriches would believe that Hyundai (or anybody else FTM) have anything other than self-serving motivations for such 'programs'.
Let me remind you what you typed a few posts ago (emphasis added by me):
The Genesis Sedan (IMO, of course) - a ' luxurious' car that can never be a 'luxury' car because of its brandname, because of where it is sold and what it is sold with, and finally because of how much it is sold for.
It has been your contention all along (and I can go find the posts if you need a memory refresher) that one reason the Genesis is not a luxury car is that it is sold alongside inexpensive cars. Yet you don't see any problem with the other manufacturers who allow their dealers to do exactly that. I gave only two examples: BMWs sold alongside Mini Coopers ($16k price is from a price on the windshield for a new Mini Cooper at my local BMW dealership--obviously discounted), and Cadillacs sold alongside Chevy Aveos (do a Google on "Cadillac Chevrolet" and see how many combo dealerships come up). Also, BMW is coming out with a BMW-branded FWD hatchback in the USA soon. Yet I'll bet you won't say that makes the 5 Series and 7 Series non-luxury cars.
The reason you keep maintaining that a Genesis label is required to make the Genesis sedan a luxury car is because it doesn't have a Genesis label. And that is a convenient way for you to refuse to acknowledge what Hyundai has done in a few short years. Kind of like someone saying, "The Corvette won't be a performance car until GM takes the Chevrolet label off of it." Doing that won't make the car any quicker.
Nope,not correct. I dont know if you have access to CR or not but I do have and hence can say this - All new Kias like the Optima and Sportage have very good reliability.Infact the Optima is one of the highest in reliability. All other Kias are older models.Newer redesigned ones have very good reliability. Kia Forte,Borrego and the new 2011 Sorento are new and no data is available. :shades:
FYI I don't happen to hold the Genesis' lineage against it per se, but I certainly would rather see at least some of my money stay where it belongs. That too is rational, don't you agree?
Well why didn't you say so!
Seriously, I respect that. I consider my Sonata to be about as close to "Made in USA" as you can get. It's a legitimate reason to choose 1 brand over another. However, I won't take too much of a quality or price hit to buy American. Sometimes we need to send a message.
- no slapping a 'Genesis' badge on the car doesn't in itself change anything, but anything that would serve to distance the car from its more mundane heritage can't hurt -
Don't you think years of improvement and commitment to quality are more substantial than a re-badge? I know how important perception is, but give people a little credit. You and me know the Genesis is far removed from 1987, so others know it too. This isn't 1990. People are becoming savvy to marketing tricks.
Only ostriches would believe that Hyundai (or anybody else FTM) have anything other than self-serving motivations for such 'programs'.
Now we're on the same page!
Some car makers use "assurance" programs to sell cars, others use fabled badges. Both are basically worthless. One costs the buyer nothing, the other costs him dearly.
People are more likely buying a large sedan for its size and utlility, comfort, as well as for its price category NOT where the drive wheels happen to be. That is why the Genesis is more properly compared with the Avs/Maxs of the world. We are not talking about the pony car market here - where Ford once had a revolt on its hands when it tried to FWD the Mustang (it was called the Probe). You and I may place a lot of import on where the drive wheels are on something like the Genesis is - but I think you seriously overestimate its importance from a sales perspective."
I do not think the Avalon and Maximas are in the same league as the Genesis. RWD architecture DOES make a difference in purchasing an automobile. Perhaps, not to ignorant car shoppers but to knowledgeable ones RWD does make a difference.
The Genesis is much nicer on the inside than both the Avalon and Maxima, plus the performance in the Genesis is sportier than both the Maxima and Avalon. Interior features are also much greater for the likes of the Genesis. You are once again denigrating the Hyundai Genesis. Shame on you.
"the G8 certainly with a spartan interior by any reasonable lux car standards but if your priority is performance it pputs even tyhe Gen 4.6 to shame. I'll challenge you though on the other one - the GM can be fitted with about every 'luxury' (or doodad) known to mankind, is sold under Ford's upscale brand with MSRPs that will get well into the 30s - and it is RWD - as antiquated as it is. So what is it about the Gen Sedan that makes it luxury in your mind but not the GM (or even the $50k TC). To me it's easy - none of the 3 are luxury cars....."
The Genesis is a combination of nice performance and nice interior cabin. The G8 does not provide that combination. The G8 is a compromise(performance, no Luxury) that GM put forth with the Holden. Once again, think with your logical side instead of using inane arguments. Let me ask, for a person that doesn't like the Genesis that much, why are you on Edmunds.com to debate about the Hyundai Genesis? "So what is it about the Gen Sedan that makes it luxury in your mind but not the GM (or even the $50k TC). To me it's easy - none of the 3 are luxury cars.....""
Logic fail. GM has the cadillac brand to sell their luxury marques. Ford has Lincoln. the MKS and MKZ are both north of 33K. Cadillacs and Lincolns loaded are in the $50K price range. A fully loaded 4.6 Genesis is about 10K cheaper.
You can sell the Buick Lacrosse. Make the car fully loaded and the price will hit 40K guaranteed. A fully loaded 3.8 Genesis is 36K. Plus, the interior quality is superior with better ammenities, more interior room etc. Plus the Lacrosse isn't RWD. T
a stroke of marketing genius if there ever was one, kinda like those 100k warranties. Hyundai sells enough cars that logically you would think somebody might have returned a Hyundai or two - wonder if it actually happened enough that it caused any great influx of slightly used Hyundais. versus, of course, the sales they gained by the whole 'Assurance' concept. Again, kinda like the warranties. Sure did force the hand of some of those other mass market brands though, didn't it? If you think about it, there would have to be some serious fine print involved (car mileage and condition) and they could only offer such a thing to those with A++ credit and perhaps to those who have been employed a longer time and are less likely perhaps to lose the job in the first place. As I understood it however, it is more like a max dollar vehicle value loss they were actually covering, that residual value being determined by them - of course. You wonder how they could lose - marketing 101 plain and simple.
Yes, it was a stroke of marketing genius that Hyundai implemented the 10 year/100K mile warranty in 2001. But, that policy wasn't the sole reason why Hyundai sold more cars in the US, Europe, and abroad. And, if Hyundai cars, truly, were bad cars, outstanding warranty claims would have put Hyundai out of business. Also, if Hyundai's marketing ploy was a stroke of genius, as you call it, why didn't other automakers follow Hyundai footsteps, immediately? Because instilling a ten year warranty would have been too cost prohibitive for other auto manufacturers. Ten year warranties provide quite an unfeasible proposition for automakers, factoring in repair costs.
I do not like the fact you continue to harp on about the boon of Hyundai's ten year warranty. This forum, already, discussed about warranties in depth . That warranties, which are honored, are good for the automobile industry, for the consumer. Secondly, it is kind of disingenuous of you to cite Hyundai's warranty as sound reasoning and as the only example that Hyundai improved its marketshare, soley, due to marketing magic. I, personally, think that the ten year warranty was pretty gutsy call by the CEO of Hyundai Chung moo koo, gamble and all-in with the ten year warranty. If you studied closer, the quality/value ratio of the Hyundai vehicle is main reason why Hyundai is, still, selling cars in the United States. And the quality/value of Hyundai is a big reason people are considering the Genesis brand .
I, with many people here, are getting sick of your biased and devious points about the Hyundai brand. If you have something logical or fair to say about Hyundai, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I am highly skeptical of biased opinions, you bring to Edmunds. I do pray that members realize exactly who is who. Anyone can be anyone on an internet chat room. So do not take any person's word at face value, obviously. If you have a legitimate issue with Hyundai, bring it. Otherwise, I think you are clearly a Toyonda troll. For your own purposes, I pity the fact that you have to spend one hour of your life trolling Hyundai sites. I wouldn't be surprised if you even fake consumer reviews of Hyundais. Clearly, on edmunds, I see plenty of them.
Comments
And that is precisely what the lux buyer DOESN"T want - read those quotes/postings that lokki dug up - it is important to the lux buyer to feel and be treated special - and they are willing to pay for the privilege. Even the contention that the Genesis may lack the refinement of its much more costly 'competitors' really makes little difference - they want to be treated like a king (even if it is only for an hour or two), they want some recognition once they get on the road, and they don't want to associate with the rest of us plebs.
Hyundai, just like the others, couldn't give a damn about 'benefit to the average Hyundai owner'. They worship the checkbook just like everybody else.
So, why should they do that - kinda depends on where they want to go. I assure you that Lexus makes whole lot more profit/unit than Toyota - so why not Genesis. Gives them a reason to raise their prices, maximize profits, and lastly a better vehicle to introduce more even more costly models.
Some experts say that Hyundai may need to come out with its own separate luxury brand if it is going to compete effectively in that higher-profit part of the market.
"Luxury buyers buy image, and the image of Hyundai is not on the short list for most luxury buyers," said Toprak. "You're going to have a tough time selling a $50,000 Hyundai, even if the car is worth that kind of money."
Hyundai: The newest U.S. auto power (CNN Money)
-Steve Ligor
I don't think somebody in the market for a luxury car wants to be in the same place where some credit-challenged individual is pleading to get 72 months financing on an Accent.
Then go elsewhere looking for a car. Hyundai is not now and probably not ever for you.
There is going to be an ever-increasing market consisting of people that are too smart and practical to pay for "the luxury treatment" they will only use 1-2 times over the lifetime of the car. Back in your day, cars needed a lot of service (some "exclusive" cars still do), so the perks were important. New laws allow you to get warranty service down the street, so you don't have to drive to the city to your dealership. Cars are getting so reliable that dealer service is rarely needed. My last 3 vehicles have required perhaps 2 hours total waiting at the dealership, and 240K miles, virtually trouble free. Am I being cheated?
Hyundai-Kia $2,998 +40% (That's $3K per vehicle average, and up 40% from last year). http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/average-incentives-year-to-date/
It's also slightly above the industry average, although well less than Ford, GM, or Chrysler.
This information kind of surprised me. I understand that the other companies are giving rebates AND losing sales while Hundai is holding its own.or gaining sales.
Still, I wonder which Hyundai models have serious incentives on them. It would be interesting to know. I also wonder if Hyundai has an average of $3K profit in their vehicles. Are they losing money but making it up in volume?
Does anybody have any information?
That's in my zip code at least.
New Car Incentives and Rebates
Kia hood money looks closer to $3,000 than Hyundai.
From an earlier post: Don't understand what you are trying to say here, but other than simple vehicle content I don't believe there is anything about a "Genesis" (if we consider it a brand) that would justify a higher price.
Ignoring the circular reasoning in the first quote ("A new Genesis brand ... should be inevitable if Hyundai is ever going to ... have a luxury brand"), you are saying that there is nothing about a separate "Genesis" brand that would justify a higher price, but you still believe Hyundai should undertake the effort and cost of establishing a Genesis brand.
Since the Genesis sedan is selling quite well w/o a separate brand, the question is... what is the business value to Hyundai for establishing a new brand, if they won't be able to leverage the new brand by charging more, as do luxury brands today?
is It really :confuse:
how about comparing its sales with those cars that compete in the same category - like Avalons, Maxs etc. etc. - premium trims of upscale sedans - in or around that $40k pricetag.
now if you want to compare with some true lux cars then of course it is selling well -it should becuase it is playing to a much much bigger audience - a $40k sedan vs, the limited numbers that can and will spend $60k.
Are you downplaying the accomplishments of Hyundai recently. I mean Hyundai increased marketshare from about 3% to about 7% in just 4 years. October, Hyundai incresed sales 27% while Toyonda and GMFORD slipped miserably.
Beside the fact that you continue to come here with an agenda, without any objective reasoning leads me to ask you this question. What do you have Hyundai? What did they personally do to you to make you spill out back-handed compliments, skewed criticisms, and quite frankly degrading points then cheapen the Hyundai brand?
If someone doesn't want to buy a Genesis because it's the wrong size, don't like the styling, the price is too high, the warranty too short, the quality too low, it doesn't have a fridge in the back seat, that's fine. However, not wanting to own a Genesis because of the country in which it's manufactured (or its lineage) is not rational, and makes the entire debate irrational.
Why not - how about because, unlike you and me, the bulk of the buyers in the large sedan class wouldn't care about RWD (until they get stuck somewhere where FWD might have worked better) or even know the difference from a performance perspective - even after driving them. The large upscale sedan market is one populated by 50 and 60 somethings and not Speed Racer wannabes.
People are more likely buying a large sedan for its size and utlility, comfort, as well as for its price category NOT where the drive wheels happen to be. That is why the Genesis is more properly compared with the Avs/Maxs of the world. We are not talking about the pony car market here - where Ford once had a revolt on its hands when it tried to FWD the Mustang (it was called the Probe). You and I may place a lot of import on where the drive wheels are on something like the Genesis is - but I think you seriously overestimate its importance from a sales perspective.
Furthermore, even excluding the true lux sedans, the Genesis is not the only RWD large sedan on the market and is not even close to the cheapest - you really want to compare it to something like a G8 (a car that will leave the Genesis 4.6 in the dust), a 300 Hemi or SRT- ditto, or even something really bad like a Grand Marquis (sure a lot cheaper)?
Then why do ALL of the luxury sedans have RWD, if luxury sedan owners place no importance on it? FWD is less expensive to build, right? So why don't the luxury automakers cut their costs and go FWD, like they do on their low-end models like the ES?
The G8 is NOT a luxury car. It's a performance sedan. And it's dead, along with the rest of Pontiac. The Grand Marquis a luxury car, or even a near-luxury car? You must be joking. The 300 in its higher-end trim is competition for the Genesis, I agree, although IMO not much competition. Its sales are down 43% YTD, despite fire-sale pricing. But it is RWD--like the Genesis, GS, M, 5 Series, CTS etc.
and you think I'm judgemental!
Even in my case, the fact that the Avalon I drive is one of the most American made cars available in its class was certainly a motivating factor in my decision to buy it. Perhaps that is actually rational :confuse:
FYI I don't happen to hold the Genesis' lineage against it per se, but I certainly would rather see at least some of my money stay where it belongs. That too is rational, don't you agree?
a car enthusiast should know the answer to that question. 300 hp to the front wheels is an accident waiting to happen (torque steer) and furthermore the superior weight balances (something approaching 50-50) offered by RWD setups makes for less understeer and generally better balanced handling and braking. Unless, of course, you happen to be FoMoCo 'reengineering' a 60s vintage LTD. The point here being that RWD doesn't always have to be better.
My original point, however, was that the large sedan buyer will generally never notice the difference and even if he/she notices, they don't care, and won't shop this class because something is or ( is not) RWD. Advantages of FWD - there are a few - not the least of which improved winter drivability, generally better FE and better space efficiency.
RWD in itself is NOT a luxury car qualification, IMO. If BMW, for example, has mind failure, and decides to make a FWD 5 series at 50 or 60k, and while I'm confident they would do a better job engineering out some of the natural problems that come with FWD - the resulting car would still be 'luxury'.
Cutting costs and going FWD is exactly what they did do, incidentally, back in the 70s/80s - and for good reason. The G8, BTW, although I think its fate is still up in the air a bit is supposed to be rebadged as a Chevy Caprice - if GM can figure out a way to get us to pay for a new plant in this country that will also build the new Camaro.
That's in my zip code at least.
New Car Incentives and Rebates
Kia hood money looks closer to $3,000 than Hyundai
Steve -
Thanks for the info.... Very interesting. I would speculate that this suggests that Hyundai has succeeded in improving its image more than KIA has so far. Of course, they've both made by the same company now, so it's probably fair to assume that KIA is being held to the same quality goals as Hyundai.
This might suggest that perception of KIA trails behind reality...
not according to CR where Kia lags significantly in quality/reliability behind presumably identical Hyundai branded products. Think maybe Hyundai does have different QC procedures for the different brands?
Maybe the name of this thread should be "Should Hyundai follow Nissan into the red and get POWNED by someone else?"
not so sure that this is entirely accurate - Renault had already loaned Nissan several billion francs circa the late 90s and further installed a Spaniard (?) Carlo Ghosn in to run it. By 2002-03 and under Ghosn's guidance, Nissan had transformed itself into a quite successful (and profitable) mfgr. with what was generally recognized as one of the industry best product lines. Infiniti, OTH, made great strides into lux land acceptance with the 2nd (and current) rendition of the 'M'. Whether they got a bit flushed with success or whether their current problems are more of a direct result of our economic morass, I don't know, but I don't believe that Renault's 'ownership' of Nissan did anything but help - at least initially. :confuse:
Agreed. As I mentioned, the G8 is not a luxury car, nor is the Grand Marquis or even (arguably) the 3 Series. But RWD along with luxury features and performance as found in cars like the Genesis (esp. 4.6), GS, M, 5 Series et. al. make for a luxury car.
the G8 certainly with a spartan interior by any reasonable lux car standards but if your priority is performance it pputs even tyhe Gen 4.6 to shame. I'll challenge you though on the other one - the GM can be fitted with about every 'luxury' (or doodad) known to mankind, is sold under Ford's upscale brand with MSRPs that will get well into the 30s - and it is RWD - as antiquated as it is. So what is it about the Gen Sedan that makes it luxury in your mind but not the GM (or even the $50k TC).
To me it's easy - none of the 3 are luxury cars.....
The Genesis sedan has the looks of a luxury car, the power of a luxury car, the accouterments of a luxury car, the suspension design of a luxury car (even if not currently tuned to everyone's taste), and is priced at the lower end of the luxury car price spectrum. Also, there is no similar vehicle in Hyundai's stable that costs a lot less with less equipment, unlike many non-luxury cars that are tarted-up basic family cars, designed first and foremost to be family cars.
I'd go a step further & say that offering buyers a choice between RWD & AWD has become a defining characteristic of the luxury car market. And here in the snowbelt, any manufacturer trying to sell a lux sedan that's RWD only won't move many cars.
I live in a very import-friendly, relatively affluent NYC suburb, & I don't think I've seen a dozen Genesis sedans in the past year. I see loads of Infinit Ms - the car that, IMO, most closely resembles & directly competes with the Genesis - & 95+ percent of them are the x (AWD) variant. Almost no one buys a RWD Infiniti M around here, so it shouldn't come as a great surprise that almost no one buys a Genesis, either.
Personally, I think that the benefits of AWD are oversold, at least around here. (We really don't get all that much snow.) But what matters is not what I think - it's what the vast majority of lux car shoppers think. And it's pretty clear that for the most part, they won't even consider a luxury sedan that's not available with AWD.
The Genesis might be a huge success south of the Mason-Dixon line, but it's no more than a footnote on the sales charts around here. It's too bad, really. Given the current economic climate, a value-priced premium sedan could peel away a lot of sales from more established brands - but only if the newcomer has the right equipment. As it is, the Genesis is a failure (or close to it) in the colder parts of the country, no matter how well it's selling in the South.
The Genesis needs optional AWD far more than it needs a separate showroom.
on the contrary, doodads, IMO, have little if anything to do with luxury car 'qualifications' but a lot to do (obviously) with any given car being 'luxurious'. The GM properly equipped can be a luxurious car, as can higher end Avs, Maxs and the like. Pretty much ALL manufacurers sell luxurious cars but few can offer a true luxury car. It's funny BTW that you should mention that the Marquis is too cheap to be a luxury car - because so is the Genesis.
The Genesis Sedan (IMO, of course) - a ' luxurious' car that can never be a 'luxury' car because of its brandname, because of where it is sold and what it is sold with, and finally because of how much it is sold for. The other qualities that you mention definitely make the Gen Sedan a screaming value - but in and of themselves they can not overcome those 4 fundamental problems.
a big time understatement, if there ever was one - what are generally perceived as 'safety' features get a lot of hype and are quite 'fashionable' even if those features are of (arguably) negligible value. Folks think they need things like AWD because they are told it is good when in fact they have little or no cause to use it. Just like you say there are very few places in this entire country that the roads get bad enough often enough to justify the weight and FE penalties that AWD systems carry with them 365 days a year.
The Genesis might indeed profit by offering some sort of AWD system because of all the BS hype, but it is indeed refreshing to hear from somebody that understands that RWD vehicles are not the answer to everything good in the auto business.
Unless, of course, we really do want to retrain 90% of the drivers on the road today
So, let's see...
* Slapping a "Genesis" badge on the trunk makes a Genesis (presto/change-o) a luxury car, right?
* BMWs are commonly sold alongside $16k econo-hatchbacks, thus BMWs are not luxury cars, right? Cadillacs are often sold alongside $10k econoboxes, so Cadillacs are not luxury cars either, right?
* Audis, BMWs, Cadillacs, and other luxury makes sell for about the same price as the Genesis 4.6. So Audis, BMWs, and Cadillacs are not luxury brands and can never offer luxury cars, right?
Hyundai has carved out a 4 percent share of the American market because its vehicles are less expensive than Toyota’s but are perceived as just as reliable, said Mr. Spinella of CNW Marketing Research. The company differentiated itself further this year when it offered to take back cars if the owners lost their jobs and could not afford to make payments.
“Today, people are very focused on value,” said Jeremy Anwyl, president of the car-research Web site Edmunds.com in Santa Monica, Calif. “Hyundai took a unique position to address that.”
For Car Buyers, the Brand Romance Is Gone (NY Times)
* BMWs are commonly sold alongside $16k econo-hatchbacks, thus BMWs are not luxury cars, right?
- no slapping a 'Genesis' badge on the car doesn't in itself change anything, but anything that would serve to distance the car from its more mundane heritage can't hurt - that's exactly what the J3 did, isn't it? And it worked.....
- what BMW dealer sells anything (even preowned) for $16k never mind anything new? A Cadillac for $10k? One of us is living on a different planet :surprise:
- V8 Audis, MBs, Lexii, and even Cadillacs (barely a lux brand) don't sell for $40k or even $45k they sell for $60k and sometimes a whole lot more.
Buyers at the bottom end of the market are going to be more swayed by price savings than those at the top end.
If you are making $50K per year, then a $5K difference in price for a vehicle is a very significant figure. If you are making $150K, then that $5K savings doesn't influence your behavior as much.
Further, as the "Luxury doesn't just equal gadgets" group has been saying all along, luxury buyers are rather more concerned with image than they are about value. It is possible to change their thinking but it takes a long time (see Lexus).
Loading a Ford Pinto with every modern gadget won't change its image to that of a luxury car. Stripping all the Gizmos out of a Jaguar (in the short run) won't change the luxury image of Jaguar.
Additionally, lowering price too much can cause a brand to lose its luxury image. This is the danger of the game that BMW is playing - the One Series priced too low is actually bad for them. They may have gone too far, and begun to fade their image.
Same with the little Mercedes C230 hatchback. Bad move.
If anyone can have one, then the status fades away.
a stroke of marketing genius if there ever was one, kinda like those 100k warranties. Hyundai sells enough cars that logically you would think somebody might have returned a Hyundai or two - wonder if it actually happened enough that it caused any great influx of slightly used Hyundais. versus, of course, the sales they gained by the whole 'Assurance' concept. Again, kinda like the warranties. Sure did force the hand of some of those other mass market brands though, didn't it?
If you think about it, there would have to be some serious fine print involved (car mileage and condition) and they could only offer such a thing to those with A++ credit and perhaps to those who have been employed a longer time and are less likely perhaps to lose the job in the first place. As I understood it however, it is more like a max dollar vehicle value loss they were actually covering, that residual value being determined by them - of course. You wonder how they could lose - marketing 101 plain and simple.
GM said they only had one car returned under their 60 day money back guarantee, so I doubt that Hyundai had many either.
no slapping a 'Genesis' badge on the car doesn't in itself change anything...
Yes. Exactly. You got it now.
think your post is right on target - do have this one comment:
- I seem to remember the LS having a much more immediate acceptance as a viable alternative (and as a new 'luxury' brand) even amongst the German car lovers. perhaps because Toyota was such a highly respected brand back then - a respect that it did take Toyota 15 or 20 years to earn.
All part of becoming a luxury brand. And part of the problem - there is no such thing as a 'Genesis' dealer and one of the things there needs to be if the Genesis 'branded' cars are ever going to have a chance to graduate to 'luxury'.
and a 'luxury' that Hyundai's marketing mavens knew damn well would do exactly what it did - sell some cars! Only ostriches would believe that Hyundai (or anybody else FTM) have anything other than self-serving motivations for such 'programs'.
The Genesis Sedan (IMO, of course) - a ' luxurious' car that can never be a 'luxury' car because of its brandname, because of where it is sold and what it is sold with, and finally because of how much it is sold for.
It has been your contention all along (and I can go find the posts if you need a memory refresher) that one reason the Genesis is not a luxury car is that it is sold alongside inexpensive cars. Yet you don't see any problem with the other manufacturers who allow their dealers to do exactly that. I gave only two examples: BMWs sold alongside Mini Coopers ($16k price is from a price on the windshield for a new Mini Cooper at my local BMW dealership--obviously discounted), and Cadillacs sold alongside Chevy Aveos (do a Google on "Cadillac Chevrolet" and see how many combo dealerships come up). Also, BMW is coming out with a BMW-branded FWD hatchback in the USA soon. Yet I'll bet you won't say that makes the 5 Series and 7 Series non-luxury cars.
The reason you keep maintaining that a Genesis label is required to make the Genesis sedan a luxury car is because it doesn't have a Genesis label. And that is a convenient way for you to refuse to acknowledge what Hyundai has done in a few short years. Kind of like someone saying, "The Corvette won't be a performance car until GM takes the Chevrolet label off of it." Doing that won't make the car any quicker.
Well why didn't you say so!
Seriously, I respect that. I consider my Sonata to be about as close to "Made in USA" as you can get. It's a legitimate reason to choose 1 brand over another. However, I won't take too much of a quality or price hit to buy American. Sometimes we need to send a message.
Don't you think years of improvement and commitment to quality are more substantial than a re-badge? I know how important perception is, but give people a little credit. You and me know the Genesis is far removed from 1987, so others know it too. This isn't 1990. People are becoming savvy to marketing tricks.
Yes, but people that buy higher end cars are smarter and more educated. They're more likely to do research, and not be swayed by emotion. Wait...
Now we're on the same page!
Some car makers use "assurance" programs to sell cars, others use fabled badges. Both are basically worthless. One costs the buyer nothing, the other costs him dearly.
I do not think the Avalon and Maximas are in the same league as the Genesis. RWD architecture DOES make a difference in purchasing an automobile. Perhaps, not to ignorant car shoppers but to knowledgeable ones RWD does make a difference.
The Genesis is much nicer on the inside than both the Avalon and Maxima, plus the performance in the Genesis is sportier than both the Maxima and Avalon. Interior features are also much greater for the likes of the Genesis. You are once again denigrating the Hyundai Genesis. Shame on you.
To me it's easy - none of the 3 are luxury cars....."
The Genesis is a combination of nice performance and nice interior cabin. The G8 does not provide that combination. The G8 is a compromise(performance, no Luxury) that GM put forth with the Holden. Once again, think with your logical side instead of using inane arguments. Let me ask, for a person that doesn't like the Genesis that much, why are you on Edmunds.com to debate about the Hyundai Genesis?
"So what is it about the Gen Sedan that makes it luxury in your mind but not the GM (or even the $50k TC).
To me it's easy - none of the 3 are luxury cars.....""
Logic fail. GM has the cadillac brand to sell their luxury marques. Ford has Lincoln. the MKS and MKZ are both north of 33K. Cadillacs and Lincolns loaded are in the $50K price range. A fully loaded 4.6 Genesis is about 10K cheaper.
You can sell the Buick Lacrosse. Make the car fully loaded and the price will hit 40K guaranteed. A fully loaded 3.8 Genesis is 36K. Plus, the interior quality is superior with better ammenities, more interior room etc. Plus the Lacrosse isn't RWD.
T
If you think about it, there would have to be some serious fine print involved (car mileage and condition) and they could only offer such a thing to those with A++ credit and perhaps to those who have been employed a longer time and are less likely perhaps to lose the job in the first place. As I understood it however, it is more like a max dollar vehicle value loss they were actually covering, that residual value being determined by them - of course. You wonder how they could lose - marketing 101 plain and simple.
Yes, it was a stroke of marketing genius that Hyundai implemented the 10 year/100K mile warranty in 2001. But, that policy wasn't the sole reason why Hyundai sold more cars in the US, Europe, and abroad. And, if Hyundai cars, truly, were bad cars, outstanding warranty claims would have put Hyundai out of business. Also, if Hyundai's marketing ploy was a stroke of genius, as you call it, why didn't other automakers follow Hyundai footsteps, immediately? Because instilling a ten year warranty would have been too cost prohibitive for other auto manufacturers. Ten year warranties provide quite an unfeasible proposition for automakers, factoring in repair costs.
I do not like the fact you continue to harp on about the boon of Hyundai's ten year warranty. This forum, already, discussed about warranties in depth . That warranties, which are honored, are good for the automobile industry, for the consumer. Secondly, it is kind of disingenuous of you to cite Hyundai's warranty as sound reasoning and as the only example that Hyundai improved its marketshare, soley, due to marketing magic. I, personally, think that the ten year warranty was pretty gutsy call by the CEO of Hyundai Chung moo koo, gamble and all-in with the ten year warranty. If you studied closer, the quality/value ratio of the Hyundai vehicle is main reason why Hyundai is, still, selling cars in the United States. And the quality/value of Hyundai is a big reason people are considering the Genesis brand .
I, with many people here, are getting sick of your biased and devious points about the Hyundai brand. If you have something logical or fair to say about Hyundai, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I am highly skeptical of biased opinions, you bring to Edmunds. I do pray that members realize exactly who is who. Anyone can be anyone on an internet chat room. So do not take any person's word at face value, obviously. If you have a legitimate issue with Hyundai, bring it. Otherwise, I think you are clearly a Toyonda troll. For your own purposes, I pity the fact that you have to spend one hour of your life trolling Hyundai sites. I wouldn't be surprised if you even fake consumer reviews of Hyundais. Clearly, on edmunds, I see plenty of them.