Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

captain2

It was Mazda's Azera, not a Genesis, don't you think
I'm not going to argue the 'lame' contention too much but the Millenia did also reach some new heights as far as quality of materials/fit and finish are concerned ( at least for Mazda) .
I think of the Millenia in some sort of middle ground between a Legend and an Integra but a more direct assault on Acura than certainly the LS or even the Q was an assault on the Germans at the time. The Genesis to me, a damn fine effort but a long long way from an LS or/or the appropraite Germans. Additionally a car that good shouldn't be burdened with that brandname, think in general, that it would be taken more seriously as a Genesis as opposed to a Hyundai Genesis.

bobad

While the Koreans generally have no use for the Japanese, they very much (back then and I think now) want to do exactly what the Japanese have done so successfully.

Mmmmm no.

The Koreans want to beat the Japanese at everything. A tie is not acceptable, they want to win.

backy

I do not buy a car because it does or does not have any specific warranty.

I do, but only as a tie-breaker. I narrow down my list of candidates to those that meet my needs and are within my budget. Then the "extras" like warranty, dealership convenience and perks (free oil changes for life for example), etc. come into play. For example, when I bought my last car, a 2007 Rabbit, I had about a dozen cars on my "candidate" list that I was going to check out that day. All were between $10-12k. The Rabbit had a big plus, 4 years of bumper-to-bumper factory warranty (as a VW Certified car). But if the Rabbit hadn't met my criteria, the long warranty wouldn't have swayed me.

So if in the future I am looking at Genesis sedan and something like a Lexus ES, and I like both cars pretty much the same (let's assume for a minute), the longer Hyundai warranty will be a point in the Genesis' favor.

backy

You've probably heard the famous Petronas Towers story, right? Not only did the Korean team beat the Japanese in topping out their tower, the tower built by the Japanese team has a 25 mm tilt.

I heard that the tower built by the Koreans has a 10-year warranty. Better quality AND a long warranty. Gotta love it!

british_rover

Ha I'll never forget many years ago I had a physics professor who used to be a Navy Submariner. He thought just a bit to high of himself and was always trying to show off.

A friend of mine was in the class with me who was Korean. He mistakenly thought she was Japanese and tried to show off the Japanese he learned while in the service and after he married his wife who was Japanese.

My friend tore him a new one. I am not Japanese I am Korean on and on a good long rant. She went on for several minutes on all the ways you could tell she was Korean and not Japanese.

It was well worth it to see him put in his place.

bobad

Additionally a car that good shouldn't be burdened with that brandname, think in general, that it would be taken more seriously as a Genesis as opposed to a Hyundai Genesis.

I don't live in a pretend world, so I call the LS a "Toyota LS". If you don't like the Hyundai name, you can always go into pretend mode and truncate Hyundai from the name.

Hyundai is elevating their entire brand, not just the flag ship. Quality has improved across the board, warranty, across the board. Roadside assistance, free oil changes, loaners, across the board... at least it is at my dealer.

ateixeira

Zoom-zoom
Relentless pursuit
Driver's car

_______________ fill in the blank for Hyundai?

In 1990 it was "crappy cars".

Today I would say "strong value".

This can change, though. I doubt anyone would call this the "Ultimate Driving Machine":

ateixeira

I had nothing against the Millenia at the time, to be fair I'm applying 20/20 hindsight. My friend's was not the S model, FWIW.

You said it well, though - they aimed for the Acura Legend. A laid down a bunt. They didn't swing for the fences.

Reminds me of the preview for Whip It where the girls chant "We're #2, We're #2" and then the guy says "You came in 2nd out of 2 teams, way to celebrate mediocrity".

To summarize, the Amanti name would not have saved the Millenia.

Blame Ford if you want. Their heirarchy meant Lincolns had to better than anything Ford/Mazda sold, and Jag had to be better than Lincoln.

That meant that Mazda could not use the LS/Jag X-Type RWD platform, and that the Millenia had to slot beneath those cars. It really put a glass ceiling on what Mazda could accomplish.

210hp was actually not too bad in 1995, but it never saw improvements. By the end of its life cycle, the Accord and Camry V6s outgunned it, heck even Ford's own Duratec V6 in the Mazda6 did. The product starved for cash, it was never really improved upon, and it died abandoned and lonely.

I seriously doubt Hyundai will repeat any of those mistakes.

ateixeira

Oddly enough I did think of one parallel - bad timing.

Millenia's prime draw was the fuel efficient, small displacement engine, which debuted back when gas was basically free. Noone cared about fuel efficiency in 1995, especially in the near-lux segment.

Genesis debuted just when the market for pricey cars tanked....

backy

You mean anti-parallel? Hyundai's timing was actually perfect--although Hyundai execs admit they didn't know the recession was coming.

paradigmexp

Yup. that about wraps it up..

I did notice that captain cherry picked a quote and completely ignored any of my previous points in argument. I guess that he couldn't handle the heat and got out of the kitchen.

british_rover

Just a point the LS shared a platform with the S-Type not the X-type.

The X-type was based on the old mondeo platform.

houdini1

Maybe Hyundai plans on making Hyundai a luxury brand. After all, BMW and Mercedes has never felt the need to open a second channel luxury division.

backy

Instead it went the other way... both automakers have separate brands (Mini and Smart) to sell (very) small cars. But they sell everything else under the main brand, in MB's case everything from the low-end A Class to supercars.

stever

The A and C class aren't low end. They're "executive" models.

backy

Junior execs, I'll bet.

ateixeira

S-Type, of course, I stand corrected.

Owning Jag always limited what a Lincoln could be. And Lincoln limited Ford and Mazda.

I never thought it made sense to own so many brands.

Imagine how frustrating that is if you're an engineer for Ford - you basically would not be allowed to be better than Jaguar at anything.

ateixeira

Did you see that BMW plans to come out with a 0-series (4 cylinder 5 door hatch below the 1 series) based on the Mini Cooper. FWD no less.

Hell has frozen over.

backy

It's going to have to be pretty great to compete with all the other 5-door hatches out there (including Hyundai's Elantra Touring), considering it will probably have the BMW "brand premium" tacked onto the price.

joshuag

That's very true. Every time a high end automaker puts out a low end car it never is a bargain. You can look at the 1 series BMW, with a few options it ends up being around 35, with the C-class Mercedes with a few options it ends up being close to 40. I don't know about anyone else, but I would much prefer a 4.6 Genesis. I think it double the car for the same money.

toye

What was the MB model that came out about 10 years (?) ago that looked like a souped up 2 door Ford Pinto with the three point emblem on the front. I always laughed when I saw people driving them. Also remember seeing Maserati that had a 2 door version that looked a Toyota Tercel. Two examples of high end automaker attempt of making a small overpriced vehicle.

jlindh

If you're talking about the Maserati Biturbo, it was a fantastic car, but probably only for the cognoscenti.

toye

I just remember seeing it thinking it was a Toyota surprised with the Maserati emblem on it. I don't know much about Maserati

ateixeira

It will more likely compete with the likes of the FWD A3 models, maybe the GTI, WRX, MazdaSpeed3? The Mini Cooper itself, also.

It and the Elantra Touring will be $10 grand apart in price, watch.

Plus the Elantra Touring isn't really tuned for sportiness, and I bet the BMW 5 door will be a lot smaller.

ergsum

Was this the model you were thinking of?

http://www.autoone.ca/images/inventory/tn2_2002%20Mercedes%20Benz%20CL230%20Komp- ressor.jpg

Mercedes Kompressor

toye

Yes that was IT!!!

2003 Mercedes-Benz C-230 2 door hatch back
Edmunds editors gave it 6.9 rating at the time

To be honest I never drove it or sat in it but it always reminded me of a Ford Pinto
from the back end. It probably was the least expensive MB and may have started at 30k without options

stever

If sportiness translates to a rougher ride, the '09 Elantra Touring in a manual with the low profile alloys option that I drove fits the bill. It's more of a plush wagon than a sporty hatch though.

backy

So with some great small sporty hatches such as the GTI and MazdaSpeed3 available for the low $20s, that BMW hatch will be in for some stiff competition.

But it does point out that a "luxury" automaker can provide "regular" cars alongside its $40-70+ cars. At my local BMW dealer the Minis that start in the $16k range (which BTW is the price of an Accent SE hatchback) sit next to the luxury BMW models. I didn't notice the BMW buyers minding that.

As for the C230, I think it started in the low $20s. I actually liked that car; it seemed to have a nicely designed interior and I liked the looks of it (I like hatches). Thought at one time about getting one but went for a 5-door hatch instead.

toye

The 2002 C-230 2dr hatch RDW started at $25,500 fully optioned $41k Obviously it would unfair to compare the Genesis to it but maybe the Coupe

houdini1

Sounds perfect, sporty and plush. Maybe you are just too used to that 10 year old mini van.

stever

The nice thing about the Elantra Touring was the feature set. It had just about everything, right down to the USB stick. The only minor issue I had was that you had to get the bigger wheels if you wanted the sunroof. Hyundai added a third style for '10 I guess.

It if looked just a bit less wagony and more hatchy, my wife might have gone for it.

fintail

They started a bit lower than that, if you got a base manual cloth model.

Sadly, the design has been refreshed and is back on the market, in Europe.

joshuag

And they probably sold a load of them, because people want to look wealthier than they really are.

backy

They must not have sold too many... the model didn't survive here very long.

If someone wants to look wealthier than they really are, they would probably go for a used MB or BMW sedan, E Class or 5 (or 7) Series. A small 3-door hatch doesn't have much prestige in the USA.

toye

But they could tell all their friends that they just bought a brand new Mercedes. When I first saw it on the highway I thought it was missing the trunk.

bobad

2003 Mercedes-Benz C-230 2 door hatch back
Edmunds editors gave it 6.9 rating at the time

My son owned 1 of those. Engine blew a few months/miles after it went out of warranty. That wasn't the only problem he had with it.

fintail

Engine "blew"? Specifically what?

The family of engines used in that model are actually known to be very solid. But they react very poorly to deferred maintenance, as do all Euro cars.

I'd expect a host of electrical glitches, as 2002-03 was not MBs finest hour.

bobad

Slung a rod, IIRC. He took immaculate care of it.

He was so disappointed he traded it in on an M coupe.

fintail

Wow, really? That's crazy. I would have pitched a fit to any MB rep I could have found, and then went online to any and every venue possible if my just-out-of-warranty MB disintegrated like that, and they provided no goodwill allowance. That's not acceptable.

I know a couple of people with later kompressor engine models and they've had no engine problems - but of course a few other hiccups.

lemko

Funny, there's a girl at my workplace whose taste in clothing, makeup, and hair makes Peggy Bundy and Fran Drescher from "The Nanny" look modest in comparison. She drives a Kompressor.

bobad

Funny, there's a girl at my workplace whose taste in clothing, makeup, and hair makes Peggy Bundy and Fran Drescher from "The Nanny" look modest in comparison. She drives a Kompressor.

I know what you mean. I feel the same way about all MB's and BMW's, not just the SLK class and M. I think many people buy them to draw attention to themselves moreso than for transportation. Instead of spending $50K, they could buy a neck tie with blinking lights for $10.

He came to his senses and sold the Shoe, and bought an RX330. Fool didn't even test drive a Vera Cruz. Some people's children!

fintail

Who turns their head to look at a plain old C or 3er etc? Anyone with decent credit and moderate income can lease one of those without a problem. They are not exciting to look at, not unusually expensive...

Reminds me of the old argument by Lexus fanboys that those who drove the German makes were concerned only with status...while of course the Lexus drivers didn't care.

And lemko, I bet there are a lot of women with interesting "style" in Philly :P

ateixeira

Intersting article in C&D putting the Audi S4 vs. the BMW 335i.

In one part they're talking about sport sedans vs. luxury sedans, and they basically said Audi drew that line at $50 grand - anything less was a sports sedan.

If so, and the Equus comes in below that price level, is it even in the luxury market at all? :confuse:

fintail

But it's not exactly sporty either, is it?

Karen_S

A reporter would like to speak with drivers whose families have had a lot of automotive brand loyalty. Has it faded over the years? Please send a few sentences on this to pr@edmunds.com no later than Friday, October 16, 2009 if you care to be interviewed on the subject.

ateixeira

Then it's a big, plush, boat.

Reminds me of the movie Under Cover Brother, when he calls his boat a yacht, and someone else says "It's just a trailer on the water".

british_rover

Just out of warrant as in a few hundred or thousand miles or just out of warranty as in a year plus and 20,000 miles?

If the former then I have no doubt Merc would have offered some good will as long as all the service records were up to date.

Fault Mercedes for funny electronics from that era and potential transmission problems but throwing a rod for just about any Mercedes engine with proper maintenance is not normal.

bobad

What era? The car was only about 4 years old when it broke. I think it was a 2003 or 2004 model. He was meticulous about maintenance. His records were up to date. That boy wasted enough expensive oil and filters to keep my Sonata up to date too.

The problem was not the car, it was the warranty. IIRC, it was only 3 years and 36K miles. Ridiculous! I don't think he will caught again. His new car has a 5 year or longer warranty.

Murphy's law says a car only breaks when it's out of warranty. Works just like a flu shot.

british_rover

Yes 2003 and 2004 Mercs plus even earlier models were plagued by electrical problems. This was after Mercedes officially stopped over engineering their cars and quality suffered but those little four cylinders were engineered well before that and were pretty bulletproof.

Mercedes had a 48 month 50,000 mile warranty in 2003 just like they do now.


If he was a year or less out of warranty I bet MB would have goodwilled at least a portion of the repair. They are pretty good about those things as long as you have the service records and you used synthetic as is recommended.

Few years back there was a Land Rover customer who was mad because Land Rover wouldn't goodwill a repair on his 2002 Range Rover. At a little past 62,000 something miles a main bearing spun and toasted the crank. That is a very unusual problem for that engine as they usually have head gasket and valve problems not bottom end problems. He was out of warranty though by a little over a year and more then 10,000 miles. Somehow I got involved by accident and heard the whole story from both sides.

Customer mad cause he knows this isn't a normal problem for this engine and he works in the engineering field so he understands metals and that this problem is highly unusual.

Our Land Rover Service rep says he would goodwill all the labor and half the parts or maybe the other way around I forget if the customer can provide the service records for the last 30,000 miles. Land Rover has no record of him in their system after about 31,000 miles.

Customer says he did his own oil changes after the last oil change a Land Rover dealership did at 31,000.... Really.... :P

Oh and he didn't keep any receipts or at the very least a log book... :confuse:

Service rep stood by his claim provide me with service records including the 45,000 mile service and the major 60,000 mile service and I will goodwill the majority of the repair.

Customer couldn't provide the records because he never did the services. Maybe he changed the oil a couple of times but he didn't do anything else and he didn't change the oil frequently enough. That is why the bearing spun.

fintail

Even during the worst years no MB engines themselves were known to be problematic. Sometimes a tranny can go before 100K if driven hard and not serviced (which sometimes means doing it more than the "lifetime" spec of the time), but the mechanicals themselves are solid. Electrics are always the problem. That C230 issue was either from abuse or just a random failure. Nothing is 100%, not even a Lexus.

I had all the records on my old W126...in 1994 when it was well out of warranty, and had 100K miles on it (a 5 year old car at the time!!), something messed up in the transmission and it couldn't get out of park. It wasn't the safety interlock or whatever the term is, but it didn't need a full rebuild - some component failed. Even though it was out of warranty in age and mileage, MB covered half the bill as the car was so new.