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Comments
In all fairness all the Jags out in 2006 were fairly old models where Jag had plenty of time to work the kinks out.
The newest of the bunch was the XJ8 which had been redesigned in 2004 on an all new platform but still had the same AJ-V8 derived motor.
The XK had been out virtually unchanged since 1997-1996 and 2006 was the last year for that platform. A 2006 XKR would be an incredibly reliable and very fast grand tourer but would look pretty dated on the inside compared to a 2006 650i or a CLK. I still think better looking then either of them on the outside but behind the times on technology.
The X-Type had been out since 2001-2002 and by 2006 Halewood, the factory that makes the X-type, had already wrapped up a couple of Gold Quality Awards.
The S-Type had been out since 1999-2000 and still had a couple more years to go before the XF replaced it.
You should join captain2 on the faculty at Wharton.
what will be interesting - if Hyundai can get the same sort of consumer perceptions of reliability that the J3 generally have earned whether the consumer will allow Hyundai to 'drop' its warranty. I assure you that no wrranty would be perfectly fine with any mfgr.
Much like Korean and D3 pricing, something that the consumer EXPECTS a discount/rebate on and not so much at the J3 dealers where negotiating is still done from some point where MSRP (and invoice) mean something. Will the consumer allow Hyundai (or anybody else FTM) to take away something they have so freely given..
Reminding me of a CR test this month of some SUV type vehicles - the Chevy Equinox has a higher MSRP than the RAV4 (comparably equipped). You have to wonder if GM doesn't simply mark it up more because they know that rebates or other steep discounts are inevitable. Buick is also very very good at this. Overpriced in the first place, and there are a number of autobuyers out there, that'll buy anything if they think they got a big 'discount'. And, oh yeah, GM would be another mfgr that recently had to lengthen its warranty in an effort to get more folks to consider its products. I guess they learned something from the Koreans.
It is when a Hyundai buyer doesn't have to talk about longer warranties that the brand has made some real progress in perceived qualities. Nobody talks about the shorter warranties on the J3 products because the quality is assumed, and nobody (in their right mind) thinks they are going to go off to shop those products and land some sort of ludricrous 'discount'. Hell, if you go into a Toyota or Honda dealer and start a conversation about how much cheaper a Korean (or 'American'') product is, they won't give you the time of day. Don't really blame them but THAT is where the Hyundai brand needs to be, how long it'll take to get there is anybody's guess.
phrased much better than I did.
Toyota's reputation takes a pounding
I would like to hear your take ("spin") on this article. Some of what you mentioned above that Toyota has avoided doing in the past regarding discounting, warranty, etc, may already be happening at Toyota dealerships or will need to happen for Toyota to restore its "bulletproof" reputation.
I was recently at the local Hyundai dealership that is part of a local auto group. They have Hyundai, Toyota, Ford, Chrysler/Jeep, BMW and a few others. A good friend there let me know that the Hyundai dealership has outsold the Toyota dealership in recent months and even set a group record of 120 units sold in August, the most ever for any of their dealerships. And they did that on the strength of their sales of Elantras, Sonatas, and Santa Fes. Good stuff.
Here again is the double standard you have maintained, for the J3 and for Hyundai. Hyundai increases the length of its warranty and it's a sign of weakness. The J3 increase the length of their warranties after they had established a reputation for reliability, and... it's a good thing for them? Why didn't the J3 drop their warranties when they had established their reputation for reliability? Why did they instead increase the length of their warranties? Why are those longer warranties still in effect?
You expect Hyundai to do something that you don't expect from its competitors.
Also, you ignored my post re the fact that Hyundai's warranty costs have been cut in half since they introduced the long-haul warranty. What you fail to recognize is the halo effect of a long factory warranty. In order to be eligible for warranty repairs, the car has to be maintained according to the manufacturer's schedule. So the long warranty has encouraged Hyundai owners to keep their cars maintained, which reduces the incidence of problems, which reduces warranty claims. But you would have Hyundai drop this warranty program, despite its low costs for Hyundai and despite the competitive advantage it gives Hyundai.
And do you think anyone really cares if a Honda or Toyota dealer won't talk with them if they mention how much less expensive a competitive product is? What do you expect these salespeople to do, turn handsprings and say, "Yes indeed, you are absolutely right, Hyundais not only cost less than my cars but they offer competitive features and quality, you should go buy one"? Give us a break.
That is far too many for a company that is trying to become a luxury make.
In 2006 and 2007, the Azera received rave reviews as a near luxury/upscale car that would make Detroit, the Germans and the Japanese fearful.
Didn't happen. Azera sales have plummeted and according to Edmunds the TMV for '09's is expected to fall dramatically further.
BMW sales are up 17.5%, Volvo up 19%, Porsche up 17%. While Hyundai and Kia have had even larger increases, a lot of it is due to cash for clunkers and the poor economy. As the economy improves even further, true luxury sales will go up and Hyuundai will stabilize far behind the J3 and even the D3. :P
The BMW Group also reported a year-to-date sales volume of 179,219 vehicles, down 24.2 percent, compared to 236,327 vehicles sold in the first nine months of last year.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/10/01/479933.html
Volvo sales, YTD vs. 2008: down 22.2%
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2009/10/01/479933.html
Porsche’s overall year-to-date sales in 2009 are 14,310 compared to the first nine months of last year when they were 21,076, a decrease of 32 percent.
http://germancarscene.com/2009/10/01/porsche-reports-september-sales-up-8-4/
In contrast...
Hyundai Motor America today announced September sales of 31,511 units, a 27 percent increase compared with September 2008. For the calendar year to-date, Hyundai sales are up 1.4 percent compared to last year. This also marks the ninth consecutive month of significant year-over-year gains in retail market share. Hyundai leads all automotive brands in market share growth this year. ... Genesis continued its strong growth trend with sales of 1,665.
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/hyundai-motor-america-reports-sales-for-- september-2009-63121397.html
Since many of us can't get to the private CR website, can you please provide more details on what you mean by "negatively" on the CR report on the Genesis' ride? For example, how is that qualified by CR?
Those who historically purchase the luxury brands will probably continue to do so, as they're less affected by the economy than the average consumer, especially if they're a "robber baron" investment banker, or work on Wall Street.
A historical perspective on the basic premise of the post... I wonder what the car buying public would have said in the '70s about Honda, Nissan, and Toyota joining the likes of Mercedes as a luxury brand? All you would have received is laughter.
For that reason, and others, I believe Hyundai will continue to grow its luxury side of the business, as long as their target demographic has the disposable income.
I sure that Steve will deservedly slap me for allowing you to lure me down this tangent, but actually, government spending on wars is good for the economy (morally reprehensible perhaps but war IS good for business).
Where do you think that the government is spending those billions? At Kool-Aide stands in Iraq? Nope, they're buying weapons and materials in the U.S. from U.S. companies. This provides employment for many of the manufacturing companies - mostly unionized.
Note that I'm not saying that this government spending is free (Unlike Healthcare reform which will pay for itself) - it causes debt and higher taxes. However it does generate both direct employment in the military and a lot lot more indirect employment for suppliers and support companies.
When we get to the bottom line however, you and I agree, it's going to be a couple more years before the economy improves - whatever we say is the reason that it went so wrong.... (I don't want to get into that, since we'll both get yelled at for having that discussion
Anyhow back to cars -
I wonder what the car buying public would have said in the '70s about Honda, Nissan, and Toyota joining the likes of Mercedes as a luxury brand? All you would have received is laughter.
I was there, and I owned a 75 Civic. Luxury -from Honda? Hah! I caught hell from my girlfriend whose brother thoughtfully told her that my itty-bitty [non-permissible content removed]-Junk car used the same size tires as the forklift he drove at work.
Luxury? Yeah, if you can get a Luxury Sardine can. It WAS a good car, but it seemed less solid than a VW Beetle.
A decade later (girl friend long-since replaced) when I bought a new 1986 Acura Integra. Honda was already on a high for quality, but I got an excellent price on the Acura. NOBODY but car buffs knew what they were and the dealership was starving.... It was almost cruel :P the price I got. I sold the car 2 years later (after the advertising and reviews had made an impact) for what I paid for it... and then bought another Integra!
Since I am sure Bob won't give us that info, here are all 13 owner reviews (short header listing, can't post each full review) for the 2009 Genesis sedan on CR's web site. Also note that on a five star rating system 12 of the 13 gave the Genesis a 5 star rating and the other "dissatisfied owner" gave it a lowly 4 star rating!
Great value for dollar spent
Pros: form, fit, function, gas mileage for V-8, super quiet, very compfy, visibility excellent,
Cons: no AWD, ride is a little stiff but not a drawbach
Great choice
Pros: The Genesis rides great, with good power and tremendous quietness, the choice with the GSM and back camera is perfect.
Cons: No dissatisfaction after trhee months.
Quality and price
Pros: Superb standard options
Cons: Not softest ride
Woderful car
Pros: Very quite Cabin, Comfortable fron seats, Passing Power , 1
Cons: Ride on rough roads
Bang For Your $$$
Pros: interior, styling, luxury, peepy
Cons: At times a harder ride than I would like
Awesome Vehicle (With A Serious Flaw)
Pros: Smooth, powerful, fuel-efficient engine; smooth-shifting automatic transmission; loads of luxury and comfort features; roomy and quiet.
Cons: Suspension loses its composure and bounces hard on irregular road surfaces.
Love it
Pros: Power, Cabin Quietness, Tech Package, V8
Cons: gets 17 MPG, Questions from Strangers on how do I like my Aston Martin
Justr buy it!
Pros: Appearance inside and out, fit and finish, amenities, engine, brakes
Cons: Nav/Audio screen is too bright at night
None Better
Pros: Elegant style, power, combined assets
Cons: no auto headlights, rear seats don't fold
Excellent value and performance for the price
Pros: Tech package with Lexicon Sound System is awesome. The interior is extremely quiet and luxurious. The fit and finish are outstanding.
Cons: Suspension is sometimes a little to bouncy on uneven roads at slower speeds. Steering can be a little too responsive. Blue tooth phone connection doesn't import phone books. Dealer experience not on par with other luxury brands.
SUPERIOR CAR!
Pros: Power, Interior space, equipment, PRICE.
Cons: Somewhat complicated accessory controls
great car
Pros: acceleration,braking,interior
Cons: ride
lots of car for the money
Pros: styling, comfort, quitness & gas mileage
Cons: remote start, rear seats do not fold down
Government spending on the military is necessary and certainly helps the economy, but the health care fiasco, along with give aways to the banks, card check, carbon credits, etc., etc. is apt to break us all.
Unemployment will keep inflation in check...the price of gold is like oil...fueled by speculators...and will most likely drop like a rock sooner or later.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I have no problem with what bob says and will acknowledge that he likely has some suspension issues/problems with his Azera. My problem with his post this time and most of his posts is his almost single-mindedness to focus on any mention of suspension anomalies in Hyundai products and present that as the only truth that matters. :confuse:
Please bob, when you give us info like you posted above and previously, give us the whole picture like I did, not the myopic, narrow focus of many of your posts.
You know, if you really think that a Genesis is nothing more than an overpriced Pony, then there's nothing that will help you - only owning one or simply sitting/riding in one is going to convince you otherwise. There is a reason why the Hyundai is becoming a new leader in about all quality/reliability categories and it's NOT because it is a relabeled Pony,
To answer your question directly, I do think Lexus is nothing more than an over-priced Toyota. Sorry!
As I've said before, I think Lexus is an excellent car, but overpriced, with a pretty shabby warranty. I guess an LS cost maybe $1-2K more to manufacture than a comparable Genesis, so it should sell for maybe $3K more, not $12K. Some people are gullible and fall for it. Some are aware of the situation, but don't value money and go for it anyway. I'm perfectly OK with the latter.
Good story.
I think that's pretty much where Hyundai is today.
Out of everyone here you do the most homework, and do it well.
A+.
Rather than overpriced, I would say higher priced....but yes, still a Toyota.
I have owned several Lexuses (Lexi) over the years and currently own a 2006 LS and a 2007 LX, both bought as certified pre owned (used). Both were bought with about 25,000 miles with a new car Lexus warranty for 3 years or 100,000. miles.
I paid $34,000. for the LS about 1 year ago. Best car I have ever owned, and to me, quite a bargain.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Is that necessarily a bad thing?
Especially when the platforms are not shared (e.g. the LS)?
Which Toyota shares significant parts with the LS?
Today, not 1990, by the way.
Sounds like Hyundai may want to do some tweaking.
But by the way, most people compliment the handling and the ride comfort. It is outrageous to dis Hyundai for their rid stiffness, when Honda, Mazda, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, Audi's are stiff as bricks.
The solution for te problem is obviously to create a two mode system for the car.
Luxury marques should implement that to create a soft-cruise like ride, or a harsh racer type handling.
Earlier the other one (it's obvious who I'm referring to) took 2 headlines out of context and concluded the opposite of what the actual article was saying.
I think I heard somewhere that Hyundai was tweaking the suspension for the next model Genesis. By the way, this is normal and most manufacturers do this from time to time.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Pradigmexp's two mode idea is a great one; have a sport mode and a cruising mode.
then it seems you also know nothing about what a Lexus is and what a Toyota isn't - sorry
I agree with the op who said we have some competing dealers here. And I don't own a Hyundai.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I think Cadillac pioneered those.
Where did they test drive it on a giant water bed?
Anyway MINI ended up changing the shock valve settings for softer ones with a lower viscosity oil to soften the ride some. I have driven both versions and the change is minor but noticeable.
Hyundai DID increase its warranty and It WAS a sign of weakness and some really crappy products. Those are facts. Any other conclusion ignores history and is sheer fantasy today. Give you a break ? How about getting your head out of the sand.
Don't get me wrong, Hyundai can improve and obviously is, but to pretend that the past means nothing is also to ignore a primary reason why Hyundais are still so cheap today - folks expect them to be and likely won't buy them unless they are.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/11/delphi-develops-magneride-engine-mounts-for-p- orsche-911-gt3/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MagneRide
Volvo has a similar system called a 4C chassis that isn't nearly as adjustable but isn't as expensive either.
Mercedes can do similar tricks with their Airmatic system and Jaguar has CATS(Computer Active Technology Suspension)
http://www.creativelab.ca/jaguar/performance.html
Magnaride is probably the best of the bunch. Much more adjustable then Volvo's system or CATS but without the inherent problems of Airmatic.
The key word here is "WAS". It was necessary for survival then, but is a powerful marketing tool now that actually has made some other manufacturers increase the length of their warranties. Just whose head is in the sand? :confuse:
Check this link.
http://www.genesisowners.com/hyundai-genesis-forum/showthread.php?t=3544
The past is not to be ignored. It is to be studied and learned from. Then we move on. Some of us do, anyway.
Which Japanese company has lengthened its warranty in recent years? Acura was always 5 yrs 50K miles... Honda 36/36..... I don't know about Lexus/Toyota but follow the Auto Business fairly closely and wasn't aware of any changes.
Cite please.... I'd like to see some sources for this claim.
My position is that Honda and Toyota can get away with short warranties because people believe that they won't need them It is a fact that Hyundai went to long warranties because people wouldn't buy them otherwise... and despite their improvements, I don't believe that they could drop safely drop them without losing market share.
People still need reassurance that Hyundais are "just as good" as other cars.
"Yeah, I could have bought a
BMW Mercedes Cadillac Lexus Jaguarbut the Genesis is just as good or better and cheaper! Oh and it has a really long warranty too"I'm certainly in no position to 'demand' anything of hyundai and nor would I be presumptuous enough to do that. All I said was that Hyundai only warranties the way it does because it HAD to and if those warranties 'mean' anything it is more likely to do with a LACK of quality. Hyundai, I think because the consumer has grown to expect the warranty would take a real sales bath if they decided to go back to the 3/36 -5/60 that the J3 currently are. I have no doubt that are are folks that do buy a Hyundai just because they think that warranty is of value. I feel sorry for them, NOT because of the car they are buying but because that I think those are the same folks that would buy flood insurance in the Mojave desert. For my part, long mfgr warranties are nothing more than a red flag, meaning something to atone for past sins and certainly nothing to do with any quality issues.
Don't know that there is anybody that buys J3 products because of a silly warranty, whatever they've become - they buy themi nstead because they think they are LESS likely to need.it
Hyundai will have 'arrived' when it doesn't need to warranty its products for abnormally long periods, price them abnormally low or discount them that much more - all in order to sell them. Same can be said for GM and Chrysler products.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2006 Cars.com research for Honda accord
Acura has had a four year 50,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty for as long as I can check back. In 2006 Acura went to a 6/70K power train warranty.
Cars.com Acura MDX research
I got an '89 Voyager new and the special 7/70 warranty was a factor. And I did have to use it for head gasket issues (I really was expecting transmission problems, but it was solid).
Then in '99 we didn't really look at the Quest twin since the Ford warranty on the Villager drivetrain was 3/36 while the Nissan was 5/60. Same car, so why not get the one with the longer warranty?
I'd have a tough time going back to a car without at least 5/60 on the drivetrain, and the Elantra Touring we looked closely at had the 10 year warranty going in its favor. Longer warranties are a sign of manufacturer confidence in their product and they are important factors to a lot of us when shopping.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If the same was true with Hyundai products, I assure you that Hyundai would happily go back to something shorter - if they could get away with it.
Now, back on track. I still think that the Genesis is a very nice car. I still don't view Hyundai as a Luxury brand.
Anybody (British Rover, hint, hint) have any data on how resale values are holding up? Of course I understand that they're pretty new and that any car in that class takes a hit on year-old resale, so I guess the best way to pose the question would be in relation to their competitors in the same market....
This is a very interesting statement... and totally inconsistent with everything you've been saying about Hyundai and warranties.
Think about it... Since there is a "substantial premium" in the premium brands, you think their warranties should be longer. Why is that? The J3 premium brands are reliable, yes? The reasoning you gave for why you think Hyundai will not have "arrived" until they shorten their warranty is because... why is that again? Because it's a relic from many years ago when Hyundais were not as reliable as today? Anyway, now you are saying that premium car buyers see some kind of value in a longer warranty. "Hey, it's a premium car, I want a premium warranty!" Right?
Why doesn't that thinking hold true for Hyundai? That is, Hyundais have a better warranty than almost any other automaker because they are better cars. They will hold up over time, and the manufacturer is not afraid to back that up with a long warranty.
Doesn't it make you think... if Hondas and Toyotas are so darned reliable, such that a 10-year warranty would cost them almost nothing... why don't they do it, and show the world what confidence they have in the reliability of their cars?
Here's one reason, in two words, why they don't do that: engine sludge.
Volvo dropped the 3/36k around 2006 and took a fair bit of heat for it. They ended up covering the first service at 7,500 miles only but that just made people more mad that they went half [non-permissible content removed] on the program. For 2009 they brought back the 3/36k program. In July as part of the 2009 sell down they came out with a tremendous 5/60k bumper to bumper warranty and maintenance plan that covered wear and tear items like brake pads and rotors. Volvo called it Safe and Sound. The best warranty of any car company in the US period. BMW's Ultimate Service plan is the same thing but one year and 10,000 miles shorter.
Volvo ended up big, 26% compared to the same month last year, in July but we couldn't really tell if it was because of the Safe and Sound warranty program or the huge discounts on the remaining 2009s. There were plenty of cars you could get for 10,000 dollars off.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/08/03/by-the-numbers-july-2009-turn-of-the-tide-edi- tion-1/
By the middle of August pretty much all the 2009s were gone but Volvo soon extended their Safe and Sound plan to the 2010 MY Volvos. Now the huge bump in sales was almost all because of Safe and Sound. Volvo had sold off all the 2009 S60s and there was no 2010 replacement. They just axed their mid-sized sedan, a car that you could buy either a left over 2008 or a new 2009 in August, so you can't even buy one if you want one but their sales for August were still up 24.78%.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/09/01/by-the-numbers-august-2009-cash-for-clunkers-- edition/
When September rolled around we thought we were in trouble. We had no cars in stock and all but one of the 2009s were sold. Still we did ok in September even with no cars to sell but Volvo nationwide did great. They reduced incentives in September across the board but still had a big sales increase. That is all from the longer Safe and Sound warranty.
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/10/01/by-the-numbers-september-2009-post-c4c-were-a- ll-alright-edi/
Up 16.33% for September with almost no cars on the ground and no C$C program either. Most Volvo SUVs were eligible new cars for clunker trades and so were three Volvo cars.
October will be interesting to see the Safe & Sound program is still going on and there is enough inventory on hand to support sales now. Volvo reduced incentives across the board again though because inventory is still very tight overall just a little bit more has been pushed off to the dealers.
If we get another rise in October then I will say all of that positive increase can be attributed to Safe & Sound.
THAT, IMO is BS. Manufacturers, any manufacturers of anything, can and will do nothing more than is absolutely necesaary to sell its products. Applies to a lot more than automobiles
If we never had been subjected to those wonderful Hundais of the 80s and 90s. we wouldn't have the 'signature' 100k warranty today. Just like if Chrysler hadn''t been screwing the pooch for as many years as they have, we wouldn't have that laughable 'lifetime' warranty either.
More like -
Longer warranties are a sign that a mfgr. has more trouble selling its products.
If the product isn't very good, the manufacturer will be reluctant to offer a longer warranty because the claims rate will kill their bottom line.
Here's a link for you:
"Once an afterthought for both manufacturers and customers, warranty is becoming the simplest way to express the quality of a product." WarrantyWeek
But the manufacturer has to follow through. Note in that link that Mitsubishi also has tried the ten year warranty. But their quality hasn't followed, at least per the JD Power IQC for '09. Hyundai is #4 and Mitsu is down near the bottom with Chrysler. And they are getting killed in NA.
The V6 cars with a moonroof are showing trade in value between 26,500 and 28,000 with 11,000 miles. I don't think they have been out long enough to really get a meaningful sample size for values though.
According to Hyundai's website that car had a sticker of $34,250 so that is not bad for a year of depreciation assuming average miles.
I just tried to check the major competitors for the Genesis to see what their percentage drops have been and I can't. No other 2009 A8, A6, 5 series, 7 series, E-Class, S-class or LS have gotten enough returns to figure a value.