Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

bobad

People considering this vehicle also researched these...

Acura TL , Ford Taurus, Infiniti G37, Lexus ES 350, Nissan Maxima

True, but those are only the MOST researched cars , not all of them by any stretch. I think Edmunds users are more educated, and zero in on fine details and user experience after they have done most of their dealer shopping.

There's a difference in cross shopping and the car you are trading in. There is a thread on genesisowners.com where you can easily find a cross section of about 100 cars which are actually being traded in on the Genesis sedan.

ateixeira

3 of the 5 are lux import brands.

Now I did attend a public University, but by my math, that's a majority.

The Max doesn't surprise me, it is Nissan's flagship after all, and not really a mainstream car (that would be the Altima). So even if it's not a lux car, it is an aspirational/upscale car.

The Taurus is the odd man out. I can't make sense of that.

captain2

I'll grant you it is a strtch and I'll also admit to a real cynicism when it comes to ad claims, press releases, exec comments etc etc. BUT
Given that an exec VP should be in a position to KNOW don't you even wonder why this statement is cloaked in the word 'like'. Why didn't he just say, for example, something a lot more definitive along the lines of 'of the first 5000 (or whatever) Genesis Sedans we sold, we got 2000 BMWs/MBs and or Lexuses in trade.' Now that would be a solid statement that could be 'proven'.
As he phrased it, of course he's not lying or anything like that - simply because it can't be challenged. I'm sorry, you 'H fanboys' may bite into every piece of info that you can get that is perceived as positive - in my more pragmatic and cynical world this 'press release' reeks of nothing more than some more PR BS.
Believe what you wish, however - I'll believe it when I see a whole pile of 'preowned' MBs and the like stacked up in the front of the Hyundai dealers used car lots.

captain2

3 of the 5 are lux import brands.
Lexus and Infinti would get my pass as certainly 'lux' brands even though the particular models cited (ES and G) are definitely 'near lux'. Acura OTH, I only grant a pass as an upscale brand and not a lux one.
The Taurus (09 and earlier) has a 'rental' queen' rep IMO and doesn't belong in this group at all - it's much cheaper in pretty much all respects to even the Hyundai so therefore I agree, I can't see how it would be cross-shopped with something much better - like the Genesis Sedan.

PS Ulsan (Hyundai) has reason to be pleased if this crossshopping list is right- while the models noted are certainly not 'luxury' they are, however, all very fine and well respected 'upscale' cars (except for the Ford). This would seem to indicate that the consumer can accept the fact that there is such a thing as a Hyundai that can cost more than 30 grand - even it it isn't quite ready for admission into the ranks of the 'luxury cars'.

ateixeira

No V8, no dice, for Acura?

Yeah, near-lux models, but still not mainstream brands.

Plus - the Genesis is in that same near-lux segment.

captain2

this being why 'Genesis' needs to actually be a brand, something it isn't now although we talk about like it is - a 'separation' from Hyundai - especially considering the Equus and despite the intro of the Coupe

tjc78

FWIW.. when I bought (leased) my Genesis I cross-shopped the following:

ES350
TL
Maxima
Avalon (had an 06 the 09 largely unchanged seriously considered another one or buying out my lease)
G8

If I was shopping right now the new LaCrosse and Taurus would at least require a test drive.

captain2

the G8 an interesting choice - an 'all-out' perfromance sedan bereft of much of that 'bling' found on the others. Why not the G8 - from a dynamic perspective it easily 'outvalues' even the Genesis?

tjc78

Why not the G8

It just wasn't for me. Definately a sportier car than any of the others. The interior only comes in black (which I hate) and the MPG isn't exactly breaking any records. Fun to play with, though

musher51

"So far I haven't seen, met, nor heard any, any new $40+k luxury car buyer trading his/hers for a Genesis."

You and captain2 are confusing your own opinions with facts. Go check out the genesisowners.com site and see how many owners of (new) BMWs, MBs, etc. have traded in their German performance machines for a Genesis. The numbers are not trivial. I don't check out these forums often, but it's amusing to see how many people continue to spew anti-Hyundai diatribes without citing any facts. The fact is that buyers for the Genesis are coming from below AND above the $33K - $42K pricepoint. I routinely spent upwards of $55K - $60K on BMWs, but I'm pleased enough with the value proposition of Genesis that I don't expect to do so ever again. THAT'S a fact.

stever

I have to side with Lokki on this one. Edmunds keeps track of what's researched and what pages get hit as people navigate the site. Look up just about any car and the alternative ones that people research tend to fall in the same class and style.

There will be always be guys like me who'll compare a Prius II to an xD to an Elantra Touring though. But I think most cross-shoppers will stay in the same style and price range.

captain2

people continue to spew anti-Hyundai diatribes without citing any facts
don't know what you've been reading or how fFTM you interpret those readings but I don't remember anything by either m4d or myself that really had anything negative to say about the Genesis sedan itself. THAT would be hard to do, the car is a helluva of effort from a somewhat surprising source. at prices, IMO, that are too low.
What we do try to talk about though is supposedly what this particular forum is about - whether the Genesis (or any other Hyundai branded product) can be considered a 'luxury' brand or a 'luxury car' in the same way, for example, that the German and the premium Japanese brands are. This is not supposed to be a Genesis (or Hyundai) love-in, despite all efforts the 'H fanboys' would want to make it so. Postings are invariably viewed as 'anti-Hyundai', of course, but that is not the intent :confuse:

backy

What Edmunds does NOT track is which cars are traded when purchasing another. That is the question that started the current thread.

But here is something interesting... Genesis 3.8 cross-shopped with the $54k Lexus GS 460...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/lexus/gs460/101077262/compare.html

and the $47k Acura RL...

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2009/acura/rl/101027962/compare.html

bobad

There will be always be guys like me who'll compare a Prius II to an xD to an Elantra Touring though. But I think most cross-shoppers will stay in the same style and price range.

As well they should. It's always smart to set yourself a price range and stick to it.

Problem with the Genesis sedan though, the low price and high feature set make it hard to categorize by price alone. Someone with a $50K budget could easily be satisfied with the top package, and spend only $40. Someone with a $30K budget and shopping for a Nissan, Honda, Toyota could easily be enticed to cheat on the budget by $5K and get much more car for little more money.

That's why you see people trading in MB's, BMW's, SUV's, Accords, and even Civic's on the Genesis. A lot of people get tricked into driving them too, and that gets a lot of impulse buys.

lokki

Being laid up today, I decided to take the challenge and do the statistics from the
GenesisOwners.com forum thread:

Genesis Owners: What vehicle did your Genesis replace?

Here are the results - I leave it to you to decide what the data means.

121 Independent Responses
I might have missed one or two, I don't believe there are many, if any, duplicates

Short Summary Comparison against Luxury Brands
Brand Traded for Hyundai Genesis (as Pct of All Traded for Genesis)

BMW - 9%
MERCEDES -7%
LEXUS - 2%
INFINITI - 4%
CADILLAC - 3%

OVERALL = 26% Capture from Luxury Brands

Next we list all brands mentioned
(Brand- Number Reported- Percent of Total Reported)

ACURA 7 6%
AUDI 3 2%
BMW 11 9%
BUICK 3 2%
CADILLAC 4 3%
CHEVROLET 1 1%
CHRYSLER 6 5%
DODGE 4 3%
FORD 11 9%
HONDA 8 7%
HYUNDAI 16 13%
INFINITI 5 4%
JAGUAR 1 1%
JEEP 1 1%
LEXUS 3 2%
LINCOLN 1 1%
MAZDA 2 2%
MINI 1 1%
MERCEDES 8 7%
MERCURY 2 2%
NISSAN 3 2%
PONTIAC 3 2%
SAAB 2 2%
SUBARU 3 2%
TOYOTA 8 7%
VOLVO 1 1%
VW 3 2%

ALL BRANDS 100%

Finally, all brands, by model and year. Note 1 - where no model year was stated a "0" is entered. Note 2 - Since this data was provided over the period of a year or more, it's dangerous to draw too many conclusion about the the average age of vehicles being traded for a Genesis.

2007 ~~ Acura ~~ MDX
2007 ~~ Acura ~~ MDX
2007 ~~ Acura ~~ RDX
2007 ~~ Acura ~~ TL
2006 ~~ Acura ~~ TL
2004 ~~ Acura ~~ TL
2002 ~~ Acura ~~ 3.5RL
2004 ~~ Audi ~~ A6
2002 ~~ Audi ~~ A4
1998 ~~ Audi ~~ A4
2007 ~~ BMW ~~ 530i
2006 ~~ BMW ~~ 330
2006 ~~ BMW ~~ 330i
2006 ~~ BMW ~~ 330i
2006 ~~ BMW ~~ 530i
2004 ~~ BMW ~~ 325i
2002 ~~ BMW ~~ 530i
2002 ~~ BMW ~~ 745i
2000 ~~ BMW ~~ 740iL
1997 ~~ BMW ~~ 528i
0 ~~ BMW ~~ 528i
1995 ~~ Buick ~~ Roadmaster
1991 ~~ Buick ~~ Century
0 ~~ Buick ~~ Lucerne
2008 ~~ Cadillac ~~ DTS
2007 ~~ Cadillac ~~ Escalade
2003 ~~ Cadillac ~~ Seville SLS
1995 ~~ Cadillac ~~ Fleetwood
2006 ~~ Chevrolet ~~ Impala SS
2007 ~~ Chrysler ~~ 300C
2006 ~~ Chrysler ~~ 300
2005 ~~ Chrysler ~~ 300 Touring
2004 ~~ Chrysler ~~ Sebring
2000 ~~ Chrysler ~~ LHS
2000 ~~ Chrysler ~~ LHS
2006 ~~ Dodge ~~ Charger
2005 ~~ Dodge ~~ Dakota
2004 ~~ Dodge ~~ SRT-4
2003 ~~ Dodge ~~ SRT-4
2008 ~~ Ford ~~ Edge
2007 ~~ Ford ~~ Shelby GT 500
2006 ~~ Ford ~~ F150
2006 ~~ Ford ~~ Mustang
2005 ~~ Ford ~~ Explorer
2005 ~~ Ford ~~ Focus
2004 ~~ Ford ~~ Excursion
2002 ~~ Ford ~~ Explorer
2001 ~~ Ford ~~ Crown Victoria
1999 ~~ Ford ~~ Mustang
0 ~~ Ford ~~ Focus
2006 ~~ Honda ~~ Pilot
2006 ~~ Honda ~~ Ridgeline
2005 ~~ Honda ~~ Accord
2005 ~~ Honda ~~ Accord
2002 ~~ Honda ~~ Accord
2000 ~~ Honda ~~ Accord
2000 ~~ Honda ~~ Accord
0 ~~ Honda ~~ Accord
2007 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2007 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Sonata
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Sonata
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Sonata
2006 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Sonata
2004 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Sonata
2003 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Elantra
0 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Azera
0 ~~ Hyundai ~~ Tiburon
2006 ~~ Infiniti ~~ M
2006 ~~ Infiniti ~~ M35
2006 ~~ Infiniti ~~ M35
0 ~~ Infiniti ~~ G35 Coupe
0 ~~ Infiniti ~~ Q45
2001 ~~ Jaguar ~~ XJ8L
1996 ~~ Jeep ~~ Grand Cherokee
2005 ~~ Lexus ~~ ES330
2004 ~~ Lexus ~~ LS430
2001 ~~ Lexus ~~ IS300
2004 ~~ Lincoln ~~ Towncar
0 ~~ Mazda ~~ Speed 6
0 ~~ Mazda ~~ Speed3
2007 ~~ Mercedes ~~ E350
2001 ~~ Mercedes ~~ C320
2001 ~~ Mercedes ~~ E320
2001 ~~ Mercedes ~~ E320
1999 ~~ Mercedes ~~ C230
1998 ~~ Mercedes ~~ CL600
1992 ~~ Mercedes ~~ 400E
0 ~~ Mercedes ~~ C230
2005 ~~ Mercury ~~ Montego
1999 ~~ Mercury ~~ Grand Marquis
2007 ~~ Mini ~~ Cooper S
2004 ~~ Nissan ~~ Maxima
2000 ~~ Nissan ~~ Maxima
1986 ~~ Nissan ~~ 300-ZX
2002 ~~ Pontiac ~~ Bonneville
2002 ~~ Pontiac ~~ Grand Am
2000 ~~ Pontiac ~~ TransAM
2007 ~~ Saab ~~ 9-5 Aero
2006 ~~ Saab ~~ 9-5
2005 ~~ Subaru ~~ GT Wagon
2005 ~~ Subaru ~~ Outback
2002 ~~ Subaru ~~ Impreza WRX
2008 ~~ Toyota ~~ Camry
2007 ~~ Toyota ~~ Camry Hybrid
2006 ~~ Toyota ~~ Siennna
2005 ~~ Toyota ~~ Avalon
2005 ~~ Toyota ~~ Camry
2005 ~~ Toyota ~~ Prius
2005 ~~ Toyota ~~ Tacoma
1999 ~~ Toyota ~~ Avalon
2004 ~~ Volvo ~~ S60R
2006 ~~ VW ~~ Passat
2006 ~~ VW ~~ Passat
2001 ~~ VW ~~ Passat
Total_________________________________________ 121

backy

Given that an exec VP should be in a position to KNOW don't you even wonder why this statement is cloaked in the word 'like'.

There is a very simple reason why, I think, the VP used the term "like". It was because he did not want to list every single luxury brand that is traded for the Genesis in this particular interview. So he used the word "like" to say that the brands he listed are examples. I think that is a reasonable interpretation of what he was trying to say... compared to an interpretation of, for example, he was equating brands like Mercedes Benz and Porsche to brands like Toyota and Chevrolet.

Also, maybe this VP never thought anyone would put such importance on one word. And maybe he knows that it's very easy, through the Internet, for anyone who wants to find out more details on what cars are being traded on the Genesis to do that, e.g. using the link that has been posted here.

Also, based on comments here, a statement such as "we got 2000 BMWs/MBs and or Lexuses in trade" would be challenged also. For example: "What kind of BMWs, MBs, and Lexuses were those? Were they 3 Series and C Classes and ESes? Were they purchased new or used? Were they leased or purchased?" And so on. So unless he wanted to spend a half hour in the interview providing excruciating details on Genesis trades, his comments wouldn't have pleased everyone. He also would have had to bring photos to the interview of all the MBs piled up in front of a Hyundai dealership, no doubt with signed affidavits from the former owners of those cars that they did in fact trade them in on a Genesis, and the MB cars were purchased new. So why bother?

backy

This is nice analysis, but... you don't consider Acura, Audi, Jaguar, and Lincoln to be luxury brands? Those brands would add another 10% to luxury brand capture, for a total of 36%--pretty close to Hyundai's own figure (40%) as of the end of 2008.

Note also 87% did not trade a Hyundai. So overall conquest sales seem to be pretty high.

captain2

appreciate your efforts - it does surprise that me there aren't a few more ESs (and Lincolns) on this list - priced and equipped comparably as they tend to be. - near lux for near lux (if you accept that)
26% is a long way from Hyundai's 40% isn't it , backy? Maybe 'the word 'like' meant exactly what Hyundai intended it to mean Nothing :sick:
Do believe, though,that if you were to explore this 'luxury brand' capture amongst those same luxury brands that the rate would be a whole lot higher than 26% or even Hyundai's BS PR 40%. Just a guess.

backy

26% is a long way from Hyundai's 40% isn't it , backy?

See above. 36% is pretty darn close to 40%, and also consider the 40% figure was from the end of 2008.

captain2

What kind of BMWs, MBs, and Lexuses were those
and that would be fairly important , relevant to this discussion, and further ean easy thing for Hyundai to know. Why is it relevant - simply because not all MBs, Lexuses, BMWs etc. are 'luxury', they are more likely 'near-lux' with a 'lux brandname.

backy

Yes, it is easy to know. Look at the analysis above. You can tell makes, models, and in most cases years. And you see that there aren't just 3 Series and C Classes and ESes in there.

It's clear that Genesis buyers are trading in cars that even you have to admit are "luxury" cars. Which is a clear sign that there is room in the luxury market for Hyundai.

bobad

Excellent work lokki! Appreciated!

It seems that Genesis owers that have owned "true" luxury cars believe Genesis is a worthy luxury car. For them, there is definitely room in the luxury market for Hyundai.

This also discredits statements that well-heeled luxury car owners believe Hyundai is stigmatized by their early econo boxes.

Most of the rest would be won over by simply taking a test drive in a Genesis sedan.

captain2

Mentioned in an earlier post, Acura is an 'upscale' brand just like what the TL is, for example, an upscale sedan. Acura perhaps on a level more like Volvo, Saab and now even Lincoln - not luxury brands ever (or anymore) IMO. Jaguar definitely does qualify, however, despite being somewhat of a minor player. They, like many others, take something as mundane as the Ford Mondeo call it a Jaguar and expect a badge premium. Damaging to the Jaguar brand IMO but not fatal. Cadillac is another brand I'm also inclined to give a lux pass to, just barely - cars like the DTS (otherwise known as a Buick Lucerne), the entry level CTS, the Yukon Denali Escalade generally not good for those lux aspirations- the STS, though, a better effort and arguably comparable to some of those German and high end Japanese entrants. They managed to keep just a bit of exclusivety despite the GM way of rebadging everything, unlike Ford and Lincoln.
A bit of history here - the Acura brand actually preceded the Lexus and Infiniti brands and initially had a reasonable and relatively impressive alternative to those German brands with a car called the Legend. I seem to remember them getting into the mid 30s at the time (late 80s) - easily into the realm of luxury pricing. Acura, however, has since screwed up and cheapened its line of the years with 'rice rockets' - much less expensive and much less luxurious cars. A path Hyundai seems to want to follow with the Genesis Coupe, if we are to consider 'Genesis' a brand in its own right.

fintail

If I had to pick running a Genesis as a daily driver/commuter vs a 10 year old 7er or a 12 year old CL600, I would pick the newer car. I have to believe some of these things were at the end of their useful life and were money pits. And a trade from an 11 year old base C-class was a trade up even with the badge.

Whoever traded an 08 DTS got burned in resale.

captain2

It seems that Genesis owers that have owned "true" luxury cars believe Genesis is a worthy luxury car. For them, there is definitely room in the luxury market for Hyundai.

This also discredits statements that well-heeled luxury car owners believe Hyundai is stigmatized by their early econo boxes.

ahh yes, a vote from the world of 'h colored' glasses.
What I read is that the easy majority (we can argue the brand percentage all month) of Genesis buyers are indeed coming from the ranks of lower priced decidedly non-lux cars
Hyundai may not be 'stigmatized' too much anymore by their past abortions even if some of us do have memories that extend past the last half hour or so. :surprise: , but they will continue to be 'stigmatized' by selling what they think is a luxury car right next to where they sell a $10k econobox - even if they have improved that econobox.

captain2

Whoever traded an 08 DTS got burned in resale
They signed up for that, when they bought the thing.

bobad

H colored glasses are better than brown!

Kidding aside, I have no dog in this hunt except for me. Hyundai doesn't need my loyalty or support. Even if they did, too bad, because they won't get either from me. I bought a Hyundai because I have no brand loyalty. I will assure you my next car will be purchased based on all factors except loyalty. You can forever rest assured that I'm not brand loyal.

captain2

if you really do feel this way that's fine and it also makes you quite unusual. When I was a kid (too many years ago ) my Dad was a 'Buick' man, and bought those products for 20 or 30 years - almost sight unseen. Most car buyers are like that, I contend, something that the mfgrs. rely on - brand loyalty can be quite 'blind' and not easily dismissed.

PS it was a '74 Toyota Corona (2.2L 4 banger if I remember right) that eventually got him off the Buick thing - a car genuinely built better than his V-8 Skylark but Toyota also a brand that was living down a bad rep back then. Deja Vu. I have never said that it is not possible (or even likely) that somebody like Hyundai can't do the same thing - of course they can. My only problem with this is that I think they are expecting too much too soon, Hyundai's rep is still fragile IMO and a move upmarket would require both the product (which arguably they already have) AND an established reputation for building quality cars.(which arguably they don't have).

backy

I happen to think the $47k (base price) RL is a pretty luxurious car, and I include Acura in the ranks of the luxury brands. Also Audi, Jaguar, and Lincoln. Others do also, e.g. CR includes the RL, A6, Lincoln Town Car, and Xf in its "Luxury Sedans" group. Also included in that group is the S80. I think Volvo, and Saab, have luxury offerings, like the S80 and 9-5, but Volvo in particular also offers lower-priced cars like the S40 that are definitely not in the luxury category.

Your history of Acura is inaccurate, however. When Acura started, they had a "cheap rocket" already, the Integra--basically a really nice Civic. They have since dumped the Integra and have tried to move up a bit, with their lowest-end car being the $30k TSX. Price-wise, that puts them pretty close to luxury brands such as Lexus, MB, and BMW.

backy

So now you are wondering why someone would buy a new car because their current car is "at the end of its useful life"? Hello??? That's exactly why LOTS of people buy a new car. What does that have to do with choosing a Genesis? Why not buy another BMW 7 Series or MB CL? Or a BMW or MB anything?

And whoever trades in a 2008 anything gets burned in resale.

No mention of what models were traded. Trading a clapped out 190E 2.3 or a Porsche 924 for a Genesis isn't trading down...

I guess this issue has been resolved for you now, since you now know that folks are trading newer MBs and BMWs, and not just the lower-end models?

fintail

Maybe because the people couldn't afford a new 100K car? Who said these cars were traded by original owners? Maybe they were bought by luxo-posers who didn't learn about German maintenance requirements until after buying a 5+ year old tank, and were at their wits end after a few years of owning models that are not shining stars in the histories of those respective companies.

No, nothing is "resolved" for me now. Besides. just because something is posted on the internet doesn't make it true. Not to mention, that sample size is insignificant compared to total sales. I don't see Hyundai dealers with rows of prestige brands on their used lots.

Does anything lose money faster than a new DTS? That's why they are great used buys.

captain2

any manufacturer can make a luxurious car (including Hyundai), there are a limited number that can make a luxury car. If you don't recognize the difference, then you need to buy whatever comes with the most bling for the buckar but you won't be buying a luxury car - they do not sell on that basis..

lemko

I won't be trading my DTS for a long long time, if ever, and it's certainly not going to be for a Hyundai no matter how nice it is. I absolutely love my DTS and there's not a car manufactured today that I find more attractive.

If I saw somebody driving a nice late model Mercedes and then trading it for a Genesis, I'd assume the guy was suffering some sort of nasty financial setback.

lemko

A Hyundai Genesis to me is what a Chevrolet Caprice, Ford LTD, or Plymouth Fury VIP was in an earlier age - a nicer version of a low-priced car.

captain2

not disagreeing about the 'non-lux' characteristics of those optioned out Caprices/LTDs/GMs etc but to be fair - the Genesis is not a nicer version of anything - it is what it is.

fintail

I think its higher than that - it's aiming at the lower-middle-lux Japanese models in the same way the LS aimed at the Germans 20 years ago - just without a new badge. In that, apparently it is succeeding.

ateixeira

A Hyundai Genesis to me is what a Chevrolet Caprice, Ford LTD, or Plymouth Fury VIP was in an earlier age - a nicer version of a low-priced car.

You've gotta be kidding...

That describes an Azera, maybe. Nicer, bigger Sonata FWD platform stretch.

They built a new platform from the ground up, RWD no less, for the Genesis. It's not a version of anything. The V8 engine is also exclusive.

The Gen coupe is a cheaper version of it!

ateixeira

Kudos to you for taking the time, thanks.

More BMW 5ers then 3ers, interesting. Even split between Benz Es and Cs. So much for the theory of all of them being entry-level.

Lots of Hyundai owners moving up - no surprise there at all.

Don't get why a lot were Accords but only one Camry (two if you count the hybrid).

More fuel for our debate, I'm sure that data will be wrestled by both sides to support their points of view!

backy

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, ...

The fact that a duck doesn't have a shiny chrome "Duck" badge doesn't make it any less a duck, in my mind. But I don't buy cars based on the badge.

ateixeira

Reminds me of a funny line from the movie Everybody's Hero.

They're talking about Babe Ruth's lucky baseball bat, and in one line they say it's carved from the wood of a tree that grew on the hills of Mount Olympus by the horns of a Unicorn!

That cracked me up.

Later in the movie Babe Ruth's character spills the beans - "It's not the bat".

I'm sure you could draw a parallel to luxury car badges. It's the same old chrome with a name, the whole part about it being made from a material called Unobtanium is pure myth.

But if people buy in to the mystique of the name, by all means, exploit it.

allchemie

There are many people who buy luxury brands not based on performance, but mainly because they want others to see them in it. In other words, they buy a Mercedes, a Lexus (anything above an ES), maybe an Infinit, etc. because they "hope" others will notice and they can bask in its reflected glory. They presume others care, which I'm sure some do and many don't. This is not to say they don't appreciate the actual luxury and/or plushness, but they are mostly concerned about how they feel the vehicle is perceived by others. They feel (for example) that if Mercedes whispers --"Hey kid, you've made it" luxury to them, it must do the same for others.

Others are more interested in the actual luxury (plushness) of the vehicle because they spend a lot of time in their vehicle. These are more of the Lexus-type purchasers Others desire actual vehicle road performance as a major part of their luxury experience and will often opt for a BMW 328i - 335i or Porsche 911, even though their interior design is often more spartan than others. The Infiniti G37 mates performance with a more plush interior than a BMW 335i (although the BMW is made with high quality materials, it is definitely less plush) but they often feel (rightly or wrongly) that the BMW marquee means more and makes the statement they want to experience and want others to know that too.

Others care less for the marquee of the brand and more for the real performance and luxury (plushness) per the dollar spent. In this category I think you will find many Genesis buyers. They care less about how others perceive the brand and more about the real deal. They want more than a dollop of performance, but less than a BMW 335i or Porsche buyer. They value comfort with most of the real world luxury accoutrements. Adding to this is that they feel they are getting these things at a very reasonable price with an excellent warranty. To sum it up, they value "value" the most. These people aren't worried about re-sale value, as they feel the vehicle is already a great deal. I wonder how many lease it compared to how many purchase it outright and that measures to other vehicles in the $35,000-$55,000 range.

And no, I don't own a Genesis. I currently drive an Acura MDX and plan on either buying an Audi 2010 Q5 or a new Acura 2010 MDX. I hear they have done some major improvements in leather quality (the old leather seats weren't of good quality) and a much improved interior design, along with quality mechanical upgrades. I'll have to drive the Acura when it is finally released. I want to see how it measures up to the Audi Q5. I don't expect the new MDX to have the performance specs obviously, but I wonder how much I give up in that area, taking into account the larger size of the MDX. Also, the Q5 has a beautiful interior, something the Acura certainly didn't have. I hope that Acura has removed the fake wood and either employ the real thing, or use leather or metal in its place. Well only time will tell.

backy

That's what I find pretty cool about those E Class, 5 Series etc. owners who have, apparently, decided that they don't need the badge to have a luxury-type driving experience. Instead they bought (or leased) a car... not a badge. The insinuation by some that these folks are not true "luxury" car buyers is pretty hilarious to me. Where is it written that a luxury car buyer can't consider value when deciding which car to buy? Shoot, even Mr. Gates is worth $7 billion less than he was last year. Maybe he'll be stopping by his local Hyundai dealership in the near future.

backy

Well said. I don't know that a value buyer doesn't think about resale value, but they have probably done their math homework and realize that they will take a bath on trading in or selling almost any luxury car, but the deeper the water initially (i.e. the higher the purchase price), the greater the likelihood that the depreciation in dollars will be greater than that of a lower-priced car like the Genesis.

captain2

it's aiming at the lower-middle-lux Japanese models in the same way the LS aimed at the Germans 20 years ago - just without a new badge
don't know about this one - while Acura's aims might have been lower-middle I don't think that Toyota's and Nissan's were. The LS400, particulary, BEAT the Germans at their own game, and it was also critical IMO that there were those opulent new dealerships and that new brandname to insure the vehicle's success. Two major major differences with the way Hyundai is trying to do it. What actually happened, of course, is now history.
I still think its way too early to call 'Genesis' a success, if they sell 15000 of them a year, sure its more than the true lux models are selling but isn't it also playing to a much bigger audience - meaning the near lux segment too. How do those numbers, for example, stack up against, Maxima/ES/Avalon sales ? Granted it's going to be hard to quantify any of this, of course, there are some rather unusual economic situations that could serve to actually get a BMW owner interested in something that costs that much less, badge prestige and performance be damned. Hyundai and Kia are about the only mfgrs that aren't being killed by the economy - think possibly it could be because they sell price?

fintail

I mean the Genesis is aimed at the lower-middle of the lux market. 20 years ago, Toyota especially aimed at everything - their flagship was a cribbed updated version of the S-class.

If Lexus truly beat the Germans, the cars would be popular in places other than this continent. Lexus has been around for years in Europe now, and are still extremely rare sights even in major cities.

I'd call the Genesis a success - so far. From what has been said here it is easily outselling the GS/M/RL, which is pretty much where it lives.

fintail

Looking at prices of cars and how quickly they escalate on models past 50K, it is hard to see value as existing in that range. It's a subjective concept.

Bill drives a 90s LExus SC IIRC...so maybe he'd trade up. I doubt he drives much by himself anyway. And he might not fit in with the Genesis...his zip code is ground zero for egoistic paunchy middle aged men in Porsche Turbo cabrios.

captain2

If Lexus truly beat the Germans, the cars would be popular in places other than this continent. Lexus has been around for years in Europe now, and are still extremely rare sights even in major cities.
OK, in this country - because it is Toyota (and Lexus) that figured out that we Americans really wanted big plush highway cruisers and not 'sports sedans'. There is a reason that they can sell a half million Camrys a year and the Europeans wouldn't like the US Camry either. It is too big and too soft.

fintail

Precisely. That's why the bread-and-butter Euro Accord is the "sporty" TSX here.

Americans want isolation and ease, which is ruled by the LS. And still, it's not like dealers have thousands of unsold S and 7ers laying around. Lexus has forced the Germans to keep prices somewhat in check, if anything...and maybe to work on the durability of components.

gllund

A little article I just noticed about the future of Hyundai. The Honda exec says Hyundai is awesome.
http://autos.sympatico.ca/automotive-news/1435/japanese-auto-executives-say-affo- rdable-hyundai-is-the-global-threat-they-fear

backy

...there are some rather unusual economic situations that could serve to actually get a BMW owner interested in something that costs that much less, badge prestige and performance be damned.

If performance be damned, but price is the issue, there's several really nice V6 family sedans out there available for under $30k, like the Accord, Camry, and Avalon, to satisfy those cash-poor BMW owners. And those badges have more "prestige" than Hyundai. They don't have to spring for a sedan that can cost over $40k with no "badge prestige" like the Genesis. If they don't care about performance but care about badge and price, a Genesis is not the logical answer. Something like the Avalon is, or maybe the Accord. The fact we see BMW and MB and Lexus owners turning to the Genesis means more buyers are saying "badge be damned" or want as much car as they can get for their bucks... or probably both.