Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sure does, sorry for using the wrong pic (again). I'll edit that out so we can look at your production pic.

    The crease isn't quite as pronounced (too bad). Still the hood matches the profile. The grille actualy doesn't look too much like the Genesis', but I like it better.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2009/08/2010-hyundai-ix35-tucson-comprehensive.html-

    It's funny, I like how it looks, but it's more derivative and not as good a design overall as the new Sonata.

    Those headlights are very Euro Ford.

    The greenhouse is very Nissan, I thought it was a Rogue at first glance.

    The fenders looke more like the current Elantra than the new Sonata's look.

    Let's see it in person.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    It sure is great the west worked so hard to open up that land of justice and reason!

    Oh please, open up my foot, honestly. Even though I dislike their internal America has no right to decide what's justice and what isn't. But that's my opinion against yours, and since this is off topic let's just stop there.

    On topic:
    The new Sonata looks pretty good IMO. Far better than blandmobiles Camry and Accord, although I agree the headlight treatment is a bit off. The grille isn't bad, and not as weird as the Klingon head grille on Genesis. Interior reminds me a bit of Infiniti+Lexus+Cadillac CTS, but the effect of those swooping lines is really nice. Good job overall.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Oh great, just as I started to like new Hyundais they give me this ugly blandness right after... :sick:

    The whole look is an almost complete ripoff, Euro Ford headlights (as you mentioned). Bit's of Mazda CX7 up front, Rogue profile. Thumbs down.... :sick:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    I agree re: the Ford lights and Nissan greenhouse.

    It won't be confused for a luxury vehicle, anyway.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Copycat, yes, but bland? It's anything but bland.

    They copied the most daring competitors.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    Some of the Sonata's design features remind me of a dolphin. I honestly don't know if that's a compliment or not. Will have to see larger pictures without all the reflections, or see one on the street. The only thing I can say for sure is that it's not ugly, not by any stretch.

    Saying the design cues were "copied" or "stolen" from another car is ludicrous. Any headlight, grill, roof line, or fender design will look like something that's already been done.
  • dean3927dean3927 Member Posts: 80
    I agree. The Equus, albeit impressive, needs work if it is to be accepted and desired here.

    As for the new Sonata, I thought the "leaked" photos were truly bold, but the shots from the unveiling reveal it to be too bulbous, top heavy and, unfortunately, reminiscent of a Camry. The stance, in other words, is a bit wanting. But, perhaps we need to wait for better photos.

    Also, has anyone noticed that the rear trunk lid and light treatment is somewhat like those of the new Forte???
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    I can see the "dolphin" in the headlight shape, yeah. And no, it's not ugly by any means. It's better looking than the current dull Accordish Sonata.

    However, every design starts somewhere. Do you then say that the Chinese copy-cars are not stolen designs?
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I'm saying that modern, space-efficient, aerodynamic cars have a very limited design envelope.

    If manufacturers go for a truly unique design, it will impinge on cabin space, engine bay space, trunk space, foul up aerodynamics, or be very expensive to produce. Stylists are really up against the wall, because everything has been done, except radical looks that most people would find ugly. When you have a choice of "familiar" or "ugly", you play it safe.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    ...and desired here

    Bingo, good word for it. A $50k luxury sedan has to be desired.

    The specs said the Sonata is lower than the outgoing model, so I don't think it will end up looking top heavy in person. We'll see.

    Is that what you meant? Or were you sort of noticing the wheel-to-fender gap? Bigger wheels may help with that visually.

    They can lower (photochop) brochure pics, but in person small base wheels won't look good with such a swoopy design. Spring for the upgraded wheels, at least.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Well, the basic shape of most cars is the same...but little details such as grille/greenhouse/lighting shapes etc don't have to be derivative of what has already been made. I don't think everything has been done...we get new cars every year, some good looking, some not so good looking. I think there's a significant lack of imagination among designers today...some of it might be to cut costs...some of it might be just a reflection of education in general.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I don't think everything has been done...we get new cars every year, some good looking, some not so good looking. I think there's a significant lack of imagination among designers today...some of it might be to cut costs...some of it might be just a reflection of education in general.

    Yea, and some of it may be caused trying to create a unique design. :blush:
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Well, if it's not bland then it's plain ugly. To copy the most daring competitors is one thing, to put it to good results is another different realm, and IMO Hyundai flunked at the latter.

    SantaFe has hints of Infiniti FX and VW Touareg copies, but the result's pretty good looking. Not so with this Tucson.

    Looking at Sonata's pictures, the more I see the interior the more I like it. Still looks a bit Camry-ish IMO, but minus the blandness. The wheels look undersized, though, and larger ones would make it look much better IMO. :shades:
  • dean3927dean3927 Member Posts: 80
    Yeah, that is what I meant.

    You know, I think it has more to do with the fact that the sides, accentuated by the prominent crease (a la CL550), bulge outward. No matter the wheels or the gap, it's like a pear-shaped person - unstable seeming.

    But, as previously cautioned, we should wait for better and more pictures.

    The more I see it, the more the rear just is not "rich" enough. It's just too Forte-esque.

    image
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    I like the rear, a LOT. It looks a little familiar, yet new. It looks easy to load groceries and wash. The tail light lenses look inexpensive to replace.

    Haven't formed an opinion on the profile and front yet. Just not enough good pictures.

    This picture is misleading, because the car is on a turntable. The wheels have dropped 2-3", making the car look long-legged, and showing a lot of fender well.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    No way, the rear end is already good enough as it is now, at least for me. :shades:

    I don't like overly decorated cars, reminds me of Pontiac and it's body cladding craze, gross.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Raise the greenhouse a little, raise the side contour, and resize the tailight clusters (away from the Asian love of HUGE lights), and you get something like this:

    image

    The detail of the rear lights making the strange lip/overbite around the license plate (this kind of thing seems like it would become a dirt and rust magnet) is uncanny.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    In other words, redesign almost every angle of the car (you forgot the front, those are much different also), and you get the Audi.

    It's not just the Asian automakers who love huge lights. That goes a long way back. For example:
    image

    And it continues today:
    image
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    I think anyone can see the similar theme of the greenhouse and the definite resemblance of that rear cluster and how it relates to the license plate area. But maybe it's just a coincidence!

    I never made any comparison about the front, but thanks for the distraction. My post was about specific details - not the entire car, and I stand by it.

    Late 90s GM designs aren't even from this planet, they don't count. ;) Nobody does huge lights like the Asian makers.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    To me, the greenhouses are much different. The Sonata's is much more steeply raked, more coupe-like than sedan-like. The only similarity is that they don't have 2 window panes in the rear doors, and they have a small window in the C pillar. LOTS of cars have that kind of greenhouse.

    As for the rear cluster, maybe Audi took it from the Civic? :)
    image

    I think the rear of the Sonata bears more resemblance to Lexus than Audi, because of the shape of the rear lights and the chrome detail above the license plate.

    BTW, the LaCrosse is a 2010 model.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Yes, lots of cars have a little window behind the door, but the arc greenhouse is very much an Audi staple, going back to the 1998 A6. Yes, the Sonata is steeply raked, that's why I said "raise the greenhouse" ;) . Sonata greenhouse reminds me of a squashed A4. I don't think it's a bad thing!

    Maybe Honda took that from the A4 that was on the road probably summer 2004 in Europe?

    image

    I didn't see a LaCrosse, I got a broken image notice.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yep, Honda stole that sucker right off the A4. :)

    Actually, Hyundai admitted openly they took styling cues from Audi for the 2006-10 Sonata. I see more resemblance of that car to Audis than I do with the 2011 Sonata. I think the new car has gone more "Asian" in its styling.

    The image I posted initially for the LaCrosse got messed up somehow, so I posted a different one.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    It's interesting how you can move a light, a crease, a roof line just an inch, and a car takes on a whole new look. The human eye is an amazing ability to spot symmetry and "faces" in cars. If you look at them functionally, they're all practically identical. If you look at them as a countenance, they appear a lot different.

    A casual glance at 2 new cars can make you think they are very similar. If you buy one and get used to it, you will notice many differences.

    Some people look at the rear of that Audi as a work of art. I look at it as being very easy to wash and wax. :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    You should have seen the puzzled countenance on my face until I looked that one up. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    I see the 06-10 Sonata as being more influenced by the 03-07 Accord than an Audi.

    I do agree the lighting cues of the new Sonata are very Asian, yes - the large sweeping light units.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    Maybe I think in a different sphere - I notice the similarities more than the differences - especially when it comes to greenhouse designs and proportions.

    That Audi was very modern 5 years ago, but it's just a car now.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    There is some buzz now about the Buick LaCrosse. (Probably most of it from Bob Lutz, you know, the GM "car guy" in his late 70's who did such a great job of invigorating SAAB that SAAB, the original "winter car", never got AWD until this year, the whole line has just one engine and the smaller 9-3 Aero costs more than the ancient 9-5. All of which are moot points because no one buys them anyway. )

    Can anyone give us a short "elevator speech" about why it is so good and why Buick sells more cars in China than anyother brand?

    While I am sure the LaCrosse is being compared to Lexus (didn't someone say that Buick was the US Lexus?), does LaCrosse have AWD available, good handling, a brand name (e.g., Mark Levinson, Bose, etc) sound system, etc?
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Member Posts: 7,709
    true, I may not buy a new Saab, but this new 2010 Saab 9-5 Aero has me looking earnestly at it. Until I discover how much they cost!

    image

    I like the black areas on the insides of the headlamps, I like the black tops of the side mirrors, etc. Well done design. Even the gaping front turn signal corridor smacks of new and interesting to me.

    2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick

  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's a clean design, very much Audi-esque. Maybe you'd like to start up a "Is there room in the luxury market for Saab?" discussion so you and others could talk earnestly about the new 9-5. ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    This picture is misleading, because the car is on a turntable. The wheels have dropped 2-3", making the car look long-legged, and showing a lot of fender well.

    Not only that, the photographer must have used a fish eye lens.

    Check out the wall in the background. Unless it's a bowl instead of a wall, that is. :D

    The effect makes the rear look bigger than it is, and the front of the car fades off and appears smaller.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not seeing the parallels with Audi that you do, but styling is subjective and we all tend to focus on certain bits and pieces.

    I do agree about the Asian love for large headlights.

    In fact, when you said that, I thought the Sonata's taillights reminded me of the Solara coupe.

    They keep pulling headlights back, and taillights forward, pretty soon the two will collide! :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    When the light clusters reach into the doors, it will be time for someone to hire a bunch of hitmen to beat the hell out of some stylists :shades:

    I've seen two Genesis sedans in the past 2 days.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They ought to stretch them up the C-pillar and down the A-pillar and connect with headlights. One giant light cluster across the entire car. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    At the current rate, that will be the rage among Asian makes in 2016.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Audi will do it first, in 2015, using a long line of LEDs.

    The Asians will imitate with cheaper lights. ;)

    It's funny, because when the Audi TT came out, I was one of the most vocal admirers of that gorgeous interior (especially the functional bezel around the vents that open and shut the airflow).

    Now, I curve the TT for evoking a slew of copy-cats with cheap painted plastics made to look like metal. Hard to think of a car without it. :cry:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    LED running lights are the next big thing - everyone is already going for them. Does the Genesis have these planned?

    I'm not a big fan of silver trim, either metal or plastic. With metal it can dent, and the finish will wear off the plastic. It's not made for longterm wear. I have to admit I prefer wood trim, real stuff that is. The black maple in my car is very exotic to my eyes, and is reminiscent of marble. The C43 had warm brown maple which was somehow comforting, and the striped Zebrano in my old W126 was unusual and attractive. And in the fintail, the old non-laminated wood reminds me of vintage furniture. Real wood is nice to my eyes.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Same here - nicely executed wood trim really warms up an interior.

    By comparison metal seems cold.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    And as most upper end cars still go for dark grey or black interiors - they need all the warmth they can get. A strip of silver in dark leather just doesn't have the same effect.
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Member Posts: 303
    Does anyone here just like the car overall, or just want to nick pick it to death? I like it and can't wait to see it in person. Of all the cars coming out between now and next Sept., only this one and the Genesis are on my list of cars to purchase. I could care less about rather or not one manufacturer copies another, it all boils down to what I like and can afford. Giving my opinion about a car I would never buy is just a waist of time and energy, so why bother. This forum is full of people that just want to form an opinion about Hyundai cars knowing full well that they would never consider purchasing one. Just sad if you ask me.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    Not really. I personally think noone, and I mean NOONE should ever just like any car without having at least one criticism about it. It keeps us in check, making sure we don't lose our cool and buy things we'll regret. In other words: make sure you know what you're buying, both the plus and minus.

    Sonata has it's flaws, the swept back oversized headlights for one, and it needs bigger wheels. But other than that I like it a lot, and the interior is plain stylish, as long as it's not grey :shades: . IMO no manufacturers get grey interiors right except VW, Audi, MB. No, not even Lexus get grey interiors right.

    Giving opinions about cars is what we do here not because we want to buy it or not, but simply because: we like cars. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sort of the exact opposite case.

    I'm not even in the market for any car at all right now, just a curious car enthusiast who likes to stay on top of things.

    I will definitely check out a Sonata, probably during Auto Show season, mostly out of curiosity.

    Would I buy one? If my needs in the future call for a mid-size family sedan, I'd consider one, sure.

    FWIW, this thread is meant for discussion and debate, so you'll see people in both camps, fanboys and haters, at each extreme.

    I imagine the Sonata threads are a bit friendlier, if that's what you're looking for.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I think it's questionable whether we should even be discussing the Sonata here. On one hand, it's Hyundai's offering in the "family car" class, starting at around $20k or so. OTOH, it has the size and features of many "luxury" cars. But I think most people would not consider the Sonata "luxury" or even "near-luxury". I think the 2011 Sonata will be extremely important for changing perceptions of Hyundai as a brand, however. It may be the first car from Hyundai that people in the USA would pay as much for as a competing car e.g. Camcord. May be. We'll have to see what happens when the car is here.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    That's exactly right. If the new Sonata is a true equal to the Camcords, it will give the swoopy H a lot of cred, which will help the higher models.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree.

    Mostly, we've been talking about it in the context of Hyundai's gradual move upscale. You'll note Hyundais now cost a bit more than Kias in the same size class, plus discounts are smaller, as I mentioned in an example above.

    If Hyundai indeed does not want a new brand name, then this becomes important for the brand image.
  • bobadbobad Member Posts: 1,587
    The Sonata, 2006 to present, is the precise reason I'm interested in a luxury Hyundai.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    I've always seen Hyundai as a step above a Kia. Certainly for the past decade or so the models have reflected this.

    I think even if Hyundai wants a new name for the highline cars - which I believe is the right move, it will have an association, so anything helps.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,500
    The new less-bland Sonata should lure more people in. Maybe give people more of a reason to buy it other than saving a few grand. Accord and Camry aren't exactly pretty cars right now...so it's a good time to act on that.
  • m4d_cowm4d_cow Member Posts: 1,491
    The current SantaFe was the 1st Korean car I ever considered. I was never interested in Sonata, although trying it along with Azera did show me how much Hyundai-Kia has moved forward from the old Sephia I used to drive in college.

    And no, not even the Genesis has got me to consider a Hyundai luxury. Not yet. Equus could've done the trick, if only they'd fix the looks first, oh well...
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Member Posts: 576
    Discussion of any and all Hyundai vehicles is appropriate here. It is about whether or not Hyundai as a corporation is ready for the luxury car market.
    IMO, no.
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