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But you really think it is a 'rip-off" ? The current LS460 can pretty easily get up to $70k, this is the price you pay if you want the best - and for those buyers that demand the best - worth every penny of it.
Lexus is running a commercial right now that says something like "there are buyers that buy price, and there are buyers that want the car of their dreams" A luxury car buyer is one that is not easily compromised, and probably not one that would spend any money on a Hyundai branded product.
My old college roommate just picked up a Camry Hybrid. The interior was actually quite nice, but what surprised me was the side mirrors weren't fold away.
Not sure if all Camrys do that, or if it was just cost-cutting, or weight savings?
The interior was fine IMHO. Maybe the hybrid gets some upgrades. It's probably $10 grand more than a base Camry, so it should.
Any how, back to Hyundai, they did improve the Sonata's interior, last year right? They seemed to time it with the launch of the Genesis, which makes sense.
That seems to be common practice. When VW started its march upscale, they used the A4 platform for the Passat, and materials were significantly upgraded. Then came the Phaeton.
Subaru did the same thing in 2005. They upgraded the Legacy and Outback, and even the Forester got lots of those same upgrades in 2006, just in time for the launch of the Tribeca. I guess they were trying to pre-empt the "Over $30 grand for a Subaru?" comments.
Now Hyundai seems to be doing the same thing. As if they were preparing people for the Equus.
Will it work?
VW failed, Phaeton was dropped, though they may try again. Passat is no longer on the A4 platform, I believe.
Subaru also failed. The Tribeca never sold in significant numbers. The 2009 Forester dialed back materials quality, as did the 2010 Outback and Legacy (they're bigger, but the padded dash and fold-away mirrors are gone).
Now it's Hyundai's turn. Can they pull it off?
Genesis was a success but the Equus will be a much harder sell. I'm not sure they can pull it off, to be honest. It may be too soon. I'd recommend they take their time, let the market pick up, and at least face-lift the current Equus before trying to sell it here.
Car of your dreams? I dreamed of Ferraris, not sedans.
Even when you dream of sedans it's probably a Rolls or a Bentley or a Maybach.
The LS is solid, no argument there.
It's an insanely fine car, but as someone else said, I don't know how many dream of it. I think it's more about people who want more isolation than an S or 7er provide.
Lexus is running a commercial right now that says something like "there are buyers that buy price, and there are buyers that want the car of their dreams"...
They are counting on people thinking, "Heck, it is a lot more than something like a Genesis, but I've always dreamed of owning CR's top rated car."
An LS is not in any of my dreams, either. I was always jealous of that Magnum guy, though, tooling around Hawaii in the red Ferrari (although it wasn't his).
Is the LS indeed CR's top rated car? I thought that honor went to the Infiniti M.
CR is very practical, so they dole out points for space and efficiency, too. So luxury cars don't automatically win. My Sienna scores 93/100, which is very close to their best score, undoubtedly top 10.
Hyundai is doing well right now, and I really don't want it to go the same path VW did.
Camry's interior would be a very nice place with rich feel to it if they can do something about the poor fit-finish. Not sure about the hybrid though.
Sienna is 6th (as of April).
And VW is crazy enough to bring it back.
Touareg prices aren't too bad, but I saw a Q5 for a sticker-shocking $49 grand. For a teeny tiny V6 crossover.
The best? Really? I think a lot of luxury car owners would argue that!
There is no doubt the LS460 is a great car in almost every respect. I say "almost", because their price is too high, and their warranty is very weak.
Here's what I mean by "ripoff". I will bet you that Manufacturing costs for a comparably equipped LS460 and Genesis are pretty close. I'll bet they are within $2-3K of each other. Yet,,, the LS is sold at a price far above the Genesis. Where does the money go? No,,, not in your pocket. Not in the dealer's pocket. It doesn't even go toward a top notch warranty. It goes in Toyota's pocket. Don't misread me, I think it's great that Toyota is making great profits. I just don't choose to be party to it. I would feel cheated if I paid way more for a product just to line someone's pockets. Since I don't grin and drive around the neighborhood looking for attention, that LS badge is worth nothing to me. Now,,, if you want to give me an LS or a Genesis, I think I would choose the LS... if you would also give me a free 10 year warranty.
The bumper to bumper portion is only 5/60, right? Lexus' is just a year shy of that.
I'm not sure about Lexus but I got price quotes for a 7/100 bumper-to-bumper warranty on my Sienna and it was something like $780, i.e. very cheap.
Plus - that would give me a longer warranty than Hyundai, because the 100k from Hyundai is only on the powertrain. I care because it's things like power doors that break, not engines.
Also - only the 5/60 portion is transferable. On my 7/100 the full warranty would be transferable.
I just think you're overstating the importance of that warranty. Sure it's nice, but it was mostly just a confidence booster to get people back in showrooms.
I doubt it. Otherwise we'd all be happily driving around in our Accent GS hatchbacks (no AC, no radio) or maybe a stripped Aveo or Versa--the cheapest new cars you can buy today.
It's much more than price.
of course it is , the reverse would be true if Hyundai had the car (and the name) to do it. Hyundai would be quite happy to sell a $60k Genesis, if only they could get it. This is why the Equus should be an interesting test.
I think you'll be having a real problem when all these Indian and Chinese cars get here - Hyundai, it turns out, been shafting us for years and years now!
I would have a lot more confidence in the Toyota Lexus if it had a 10/60/100 warranty.Paying that much for a car, I don't think I should have to spend a penny for repairs.
Huh? I don't recall Hyundai spinning off an American sounding alias to try and fool people into buying their cars.
If Hyundai changes their name and jacks up the price to pay for huge marketing expenses, I will call it a ripoff.
Lexus and most of the other Jaspanese brands don't need to do this BUT If you want to have confidence in a Lexus all you really need to do is look up the reliability stats - I think you'll find them generally quite superior, befitting the luxury brand that it is. .
If you think that the folks in boardrooms in Ulsan are any less greedy, in it for the money, and/or any less of good businessmen ; I have a bridge for sale in Arizona; because they would happily price the Genesis at $60k or whatever they think they can get for it. The only problem they have with doing that - is all in a name.
That's already been debunked. Everyone I know except you would rather have a longer warranty than a shorter warranty. People don't line up to pay $400-$800 for a shorter warranty, do they? Toyota doesn't run commercials proclaiming they have the shortest warranty in the business, do they?
Sure,,, a long warranty is a sales tool. So are discounts, so are toasters, so are lifetime free oil changes. All are GOOD things, and add value to your purchase. A generous warranty adds considerable value to ANY car you intend to keep a while.
The "checkered history" dig doesn't work any more. That ship has sailed.
A look at crash tests from several cars they make today agrees with you.
The Tata Nano actually fared well in the euro NCAP tests, though.
captain makes a good point, though, the chinese will have a lower cost basis and can reverse-engineer competitors models for probably half the price.
They will be a threat to Hyundai on the low-end, too. Maybe that's why Hyundai's timing in moving a bit upscale makes perfect sense.
A warranty won't cover everything anyway. The only time I've had to go to a dealer for repairs, it was a chipmunk that made a home in my engine bay and chewed up the wiring harness.
Not covered under warranty.
So you could end up paying for repairs no matter how long the warranty is.
Now I wish I had the details, but you're right - I got quotes for an aftermarket warranty and out of curiosity asked what it would be for an Entourage, and susprise - it was cheaper for the Toyota.
I realize that's mostly a supply-and-demand thing, and the mere perception of Toyota being reliable drives the price down (else noone would buy it).
But still. On the Entourage you're only paying to extend the B2B portion from 5/60 to 7/100, so it's just that extra 2 years and 40k miles and for non-powertrain items only.
I decided to wait - you don't have to decide until the B2B portion is up.
if you think warranties are really worth anything then OK, but otherwise a longer than 'normal' is definitely a red flag. Think Chrysler Corp. here - generally subpar products (from a reliability perspective) with 'lifetime' warranties that turns out to be mostly worthless. Do I buy a Chrysler because it has a 'superior' warranty - heck no - what it tells me instead is that they are more than likely making crappy cars and to avoid them. 5 or 10 years ago I would have made the same comment about Korean cars and their 'superior' warranties
I would rather have a car built well enough that I don't have to worry about using any warranty. Given that cars these days should easily get past 100-150k without ever visiting the repair shop and something not hard to do with well built cars with regular routine maintanance.
It may have been a red flag for the first year or two, i.e. they needed it to sell any cars at all.
What surprised me, though, was that they kept it going even after the quality improved.
But that only goes so far - they cheapened the materials so much that I actually think the previous van was nicer inside.
Any how, that effort clearly did work as well as Hyundai's effort, despite the longer duration.
I should have said "All things being equal". I would never purchase a car with a record of poor quality, regardless of warranty. I rate the Genesis and Toyota LS460 about equal, so I take the Genesis because of the superior warranty**
**I rate them equal, because although the Toyota LS 460 is a tad nicer, it's more expensive. In my world, inexpensive is still good, expensive is still bad.
Let's see, now... the Lexus division of Toyota has a longer warranty than the normal Toyota warranty. OMG!!! Red alert!!! Watch out for those Lexus vehicles--obviously their quality is worse than that of Toyota's!!!
The answer to that is pretty darn obvious, at least to me. Question: how many car buyers thought Toyota, Honda et. al. were "ripping us off" in the mid-'80s when they went to their Hyundai dealer to check out the $4995 Excel, then went to the Toyota and Honda dealers and found their cars were about twice as much? Answer: not very many, including me. For example, in 1988 I checked out the Excel, found it... lacking (to put it kindly), and had no problem spending twice as much on a Civic LX. It was worth it.
So let's see what kind of quality the Chinese manufacturers deliver to us before making prognostications that people will feel "ripped off' by Hyundai. If they can deliver comparable quality right off the bat to what Hyundai offers, at a much lower price, obviously that will impact Hyundai, and all other automakers, eventually (I say eventually because it will take a lot of proving before I will trust the quality of a car from a Chinese manufacturer, based on what I know now.) But I for one would be utterly amazed if the quality will be at that level from Day One, especially since quality is a moving target and Hyundai is improving year after year.
as it would be today spending the extra money on one of those real luxury cars
The Japanese took 20 years.
The Koreans took 10 years.
The Chinese will do it in 5.
We'll see.
Why do you compare a Lexus LS460 to the Genesis?? They don't play on the same playing field. The Genesis is a nice ride... very nice. It is not a luxury car. Its an upscale car on par with the Avalon, Maxima, the new LaCrosse etc. Is it at the top of that class? Probably, but still has a long way to go.
The upcoming Equus might be a bit closer to the LS 460. However, at the price point they are looking to sell it at the advantage to the Hyundai goes away a bit IMO.
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
I agree that some of the copycats we see are downright comical, you may recall recent ones from the C4C thread.
only that it is one of the reasons that Hyundai can never be a luxury brand. Would suggest that your head may be in the sand if you don't recognize the continuing impact of those truly cheap Korean cars of 15-20 years ago. The Korean warranty and the Korean prices are proof that the ship hasn't sailed and that it is still in port.
I look at historic Japanese and Chinese industry - over the past 100 or more years, and I have to have a better feeling for what Japan can build. Those shamelessly tin-can 1958 Datsuns etc were closer to the competition than the Cherys and Geelys of today. I'd also expect a 1989 Excel to be a better product than one of those fake C-class.
agreed and why the Equus should be some sort of litmus test, for it to sell at a similar price it will have to be significantly better OR Hyundai/Genesis will have to be established as a luxury brand - a brand (and car) to aspire to. IMO both are unlikely - at least in the forseeable future.
Their publications sometimes use different ways to categorize cars, sometimes by price, sometimes by type. It gets confusing.
The April issue is one devoted totally to cars so has a lot of information. Their quarterly Buyers Guides for cars are based on the information at the time they did their testing. So they may have tested a car four years ago and are still describing that car, except for pricing and maybe mentioning significant updates.
I had an ongoing discussion with CR re: how they award points. They won't say. Car and Driver gives you a chart when they test a car. Consumers Guide has a lengthy chart with numbers and narrative for each area evaluated. With those, you can pick out what is important to you and come up with your own scores. With CR, who knows why they give scores they do? Comparing scores to the "circles" doesn't work.
Also, the only "Con" for the Azera was fuel efficiency at 19 MPG on regular. Guess what? Their much beloved Infiniti M35 gets the same 19 MPG on premium, but that is not a "con."
Interesting that Honda/Acura was actually first, but Acura never really caught on. Lots of people like them, they are good cars, but don't have the luxury brand cachet or recognition that Lexus has.
Mazda tried to get into the upscale sedan market and failed. The luxury/prestige market is a lot different from the Sonata/Camry/Accord market.
I agree with the poster who thought that Hyundai, seeing that they are about to lose the low end of the market, are forcing the upmarket move much like the J3 brands did in the 90s - about the same time that the Japanese starting shafting us
What has hurt Acura as a lux brand, to me, is their continued presence in the cheaper 'rice rocket' market, starting with the Integra and today with the TSX.
Hyundai seems to be making the same mistake with the Coupe.
And agree, the lux/prestige market (as you seem want to call it) has as much to do with name and consumer perceptions as it does with substance.
I don't think there are unnecessarily high prices for any car that sells. An S-class is expensive, but my local dealer hasn't had any screamer ads or sweetheart lease deals to clear out the last of the 09s, so the market must accept the prices - and in that they are correct. It may be a certain someone's opinion that prices are too high...but a Genesis isn't cheap either. If it sells, it's OK.
I agree with your idea of why Hyunda is moving upmarket - in preparation for possible new competitors on the low end. It might be a good time for the swoopy H to improve its low end, too, like the Japanese have done - a new Civic or Corolla is more refined than the average Accord or Camry of 20 years ago.
On the other end of the scale is my wife's 2006 Hyundai Elantra GLS. At the price we paid, we could have bought 5 Elantra's for the price of one LS460. Problems - none, since delivery in December 2005. Not one single niggling problem in almost 4 years, and no trips to the dealer for any warranty work - only standard oil changes, coolant drains, tire rotations, etc.
Would I prefer an LS460 - of course, as anyone would, but it's an interesting observation nevertheless.