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and also with that, of course, whether the car buyer is realdy to accept Hyundai as a 'player' in that market. Hyundai itself has shown to be perfectly capable of producing some quite impressive automobiles, it's more about whether the consumer can recognize that fact.
IMO the Equus (or whatever they call it) will be a better test. At $50k + I believe they run the same risks that VW did with the Phaeton. Is a Hyundai that costs $50k any more illogical than a VW that costs 70?
Its less IMO. At 50K at least you are not directly competing with the benchmarks of the class (7, S, LS). At that price level you still are going against mid-level contenders. The question will still remain whether or not someone will go for a GS or E class or say "That Equus is the same $$ and is roomier and offers a lot more". If you want to compare the Genesis in the same way to a 3 or C the same reasoning applies.. Of course, throw out the snob factor and brand prestige at the door!
I really think bringing the Equus over here is a mistake. The Genesis isn't exactly selling in huge #s, combine that with the still slow economy and the timing isn't right.
OTOH if the economy starts surging back in the next 2 - 3 years maybe you take the Equus, Genesis, Veracruz, and a Sonata turned lux (ala Camry to ES350) and maybe you have the beginnings of a lux division.
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Very good question...but 15 years ago you would have said the same thing about a $30k Hyundai.
Heck, even ONE year ago you would have felt that about a $40k Hyundai.
Are they ready to push $50k? Given enough time, and maybe a face lift to the Equus, then they'll have a shot.
IMO folks that spend $40k on a car are much more plentiful than those that can and will spend 50 or 60. And those that do spend the 50 or 60 are likewise more likely to be buying a badge. I agree that a $50k Hyundai may be a mistake.
Now here comes the Genesis, also not selling in big numbers but even more expensive. So is the carbuyer really comfortable with a Hyundai product costing that much money? Think that sales numbers would indicate that there is some sort of price 'ceiling' for a Hyundai branded product although some allowances must be made for the crappy economy. Eihter way, a lot to do with any place Hyundai might find in the luxury market.
I believe most Azeras sell in the mid-high 20s.
Quite possibly. Only time will tell if Hyundai can pull it off. I still don't see that many Genesis (not even one a week) but I see tons of similarly priced ES350s. Many non car nuts buy by badge alone which will discount Hyundai immediately. So, in a nutshell the Equus will most likely end up just like the Genesis, being sold to enthusiasts who know what a great value it is.
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agreed, but obviously not enough for any acceptance into the fellowship of luxury car mfgrs. is it?
There will be some folks that buy a car like that because they appreciate what it is and what it can do (think BMW) and there are others that just want others to see it in their driveway. In either case, not someone that would buy a Genesis.
No, and neither is the Genesis. Heck, I own one and can say that!
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but, don't you agree that it could be - perhaps someday- probably sold at a dedicated new 'Genesis' dealer, not as a Hyundai and possibly even at a slightly higher price?
Absolutely! I believe someday Hyundai will have a lux division. Its just not the time yet. IMO the Genesis is every bit as "luxurious" as an Acura or an IS/ES350 however, its carries no more prestige than an Avalon/Maxima or even something like the new LaCrosse.
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A mistake in what way? What are the consequences of shipping some Equus over here for sale? What's the down side?
A mistake in timing, given that: 1. The economy is still on a slump, and 2. The market is still warming up to Genesis. Like I said a lot of times before, Hyundai is rushing it... risky move at best.
What are the consequences of shipping some Equus over here for sale? What's the down side?
That it might end up the same way Phaeton did? I can think of 1 possible downside: big loss of money from Equus' poor sales. OTOH given Hyundai's profit these days, Hyundai may be able to afford it afterall...
While there are still people out there thinking Hyundai=junk, I agree with you, most people no longer think of Hyundais as junk. More like a regular entry in it's class, not great, but not bad either.
As of now, the title of junk in people's minds now goes to many GM and Chrysler products :P
I mentioned it a bit earlier, but the local dealer only orders them with the premium package, so they're all well over the $30k price barrier.
I'd compare the Genesis to the GS, not the ES. Bigger and rear drive.
Let's see what they do when they roll out the Equus. You do bring up a good point - expectations are different as you creep up that price ladder.
"The Phaeton will triumphantly make a return to the U.S" in 2011. Spy Photos: 2011 VW Phaeton (Straightline)
So maybe Hyundai actually has their timing right and it was VW who jumped in a bit early?
They really should have debuted the Passat CC first, before the Phaeton.
Hyundai was smarter and inched upward.
'Triumphant retun' for what - another failure? All because they fail to understand that folks don't look to VW for 'luxury' cars? A lesson I'm not sure that Hyundai understands either :confuse: r
With Hyundai bringing over the Equus and at a $50k+ starting price, they will do just fine. I think or I've read somewhere that the total sales Hyundai is projecting is only about 10k units or so. Can you imagine how big their ego will be if they end up selling twice that? We all must prepare for it, Hyundai will soon be where the General once stood.
Wait a minute here.... Hyundai is growing, being accepted more and more, and makes good cars. However, if you think Hyundai will become what GM was in the 50s, 60s, and 70s they have a loooooooooooooong road to go! Actually, I don't think any auto maker today could enjoy that kind of success and market share. There are just too many players.
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GM once held 54% of NA market share. Not repeatable in the modern economy.
I still don't get what you are saying about a "risk".
The Equus was a done deal before the economy turned down. Hyundai is not counting on the USA market. They are simply going to sell a few luxury cars in the USA. It costs precisely zero to try to sell some here. If they fail, there is always the rest of the world. Toyota gambled with Lexus, VW gambled with Phaeton, but I don't see any gamble with Equus. A gamble is a gamble only when there is money at stake.
It certainly is much cheaper than a ground-up design, but there are still plenty of costs.
* thinking, of course, that you H fanboys will line up to tell me just this, I say go ahead and have at it - although I do suggest you bring your A games
Unless they had smiles on their faces at the time, the folks at CR (notorious Hyundai fanboys that they are
Hyundai Genesis 3.8 - Rated over the Lexus ES350, Acura TL, and Nissan Maxima--regardless of price.
Hyundai Elantra SE: Rated over the Civic EX, Corolla LE and Sentra 2.0S--regardless of price.
Hyundai Santa Fe Limited and Hyundai Veracruz SE - Rated over the Honda Pilot and Nissan Pathfinder--regardless of price. (Santa Fe was one point below the Highlander Limited, although the tested Highlander was $8k more than the tested Santa Fe.)
As you probably know, CR's rankings within one of their categories do not take price into account.
So I am glad you agree that Hyundai ought to be trying to move upmarket--which btw they have already done over a year ago.
My Hyundai dealer gives a free "bath" (for the car, anyway) for even oil changes--for any car. And the oil changes are free. They don't give free loaners for every service, but they do drive customers home or to work, and even back again if needed. So shop around to the Hyundai dealers in your area--you might find one that offers the level of service you want. Maybe not cappuccino, though.
I think any Hyundai will give you a loaner if you ask. I certainly got one. They also give you lifetime free oil changes, if you ask.
Backy, I don't trust strangers washing my cars. The paint on my 3 year old Sonata looks brand new, and I want to keep it that way.
Took the Sonata into the dealer yesterday for a TSB. The dealer's old building was fine, but the new is great. Fresh coffee, nice TV, VERY friendly staff, only me and 1 other customer in the 40 minutes I was there. I spent 30 of the 40 minutes schmoozing with staff and sitting in Genesisisiszzz. I don't believe in "love" for a metal object, but I'm at a loss for the right word.
We're basically small car lovers in this family, and we owned a 2003 Honda Civic LX, purchased new in January 2003. Sold it in November 2005, and bought a new 2006 Hyundai Elantra GLS. My daughter has a 2004 Toyota Corolla LE, purchased new in February 2004. All were or are automatics.
The Civic had five warranty claims within the first 18 months of ownership, two of which disabled the car mechanically, and in each case, the car was kept at the dealership overnight for repair. The Corolla has had three warranty claims, and none were significant to keep the car at the dealership overnight. In both cases, the fixes were made on the spot while she waited.
The Elantra has had zero warranty claims since purchase in late November 2005. All it has required is routine maintenance.
Moreover, we also owned a 1990 Civic which required a new ECM within the first 6 months of ownership, and niggling problems continued until we sold it 3 years later.
Statistically, I realize it's a very small sample, but for one who has owned Japanese cars, as well as European cars since 1968, I must say that I'm impressed with Hyundai.
I disagree. Hyundai IS counting on US market. The only other huge market is China and the Chinese love their Audis and VWs.
It'll cost way more than zero to sell Equss here. Like Ateixeira mentioned already, EPA testing, dealer training, etc... and let me add more:
Promotions, preparations, shipping costs, and not to mention Hyundai needs to stock dealers with spareparts. Do you honestly think it cost little? Think again.
Toyota gambled with Lexus, VW gambled with Phaeton, but I don't see any gamble with Equus. A gamble is a gamble only when there is money at stake.
But there IS huge money at stake. Toyota didn't gamble much with Lexus. Like I said earlier, those in the know were already aware of Toyota's reputation as a luxury car maker, while those not in the know were lured with Lexus' top rate service which no other manufacturer offered back then in US (sadly Lexus no longer offer such amazing service these days). VW gambled with Phaeton, yes, and failed.
It all costs money.
IMO neither Hyundai nor VW got the timing right. Hyundai got into the water too early, while VW shouldn't have gone there at all. If and IF Phaeton was sucessful, then it would've cannibalized Audi A8. Mondo ridiculous, honestly....
There's no way it'll happen. Toyota was the last one to pull such success back in the 90s and even if it's back to it's prime condition it'll never return to those glorious days. Like others said, there are too many players now.
At $50k Equus is already expecting too much. Another poster said it right: different price level, different expectation. Why can't Hyundai wait for the market to fully accept Genesis first, or at the very least, prepare dealers to meet the luxury class expectations.... People in this class don't expect to get the car for the money, they expect to get the car AND the luxury ownership experience for the money.
I agree with your statement that at $50k Phaeton would still be around, OTOH if that happens Equus will be crushed down. Phaeton has better technology, better cabin, better styling, and more.
The Genesis sedan is already outselling several competitors, after being on the market for only a little over one year. What do you consider "full acceptance"?
At the moment Hyundai is still working to find a firm step in the near luxury class, and suddenly it wants to move up? You can still see a lot of value shoppers in the $30-40k range, but in the $50k class, they're few and far in between....
Near luxury, I won't argue. It's on the way. However to make an actual firm step I expect Hyundai to train most, if not all dealers to meet the class requirements first, and it's not happening yet.
Hyundai now has some real-world data on how its dealers have handled the Genesis. I would expect Hyundai to use that data to plan its training for the Equus, and even to winnow out dealers who have not demonstrated they are up to snuff in selling and servicing the Genesis. They have lots of customer surveys for sales and service to look at, plus input to Customer Service etc.
Millions, not billions like a normal roll out. That's not "huge" to the 4th largest car maker in the world.
Converting from Korean to USA specs is probably very minimal, and most tooling and design was already done on Genesis. Dealer training is almost nothing, parts distribution not real costly. Advertising is the biggest costs by far. If Equus fails, it won't hurt Hyundai badly neither financially or strategically.
What will be interesting is how they position the Veracruz replacement, in 2011 (?). That could be a good time to launch Genesis as a brand, with an entry-level luxury sedan, a luxury sedan, a luxury SUV, and sporty coupe. Or maybe hold off on the Equus to 2011 and launch the Veracruz 2.0 about the same time.
Your timetable about the "future" Genesis brand is also my best guess. My guess is that we may have some clues of what Hyundai will do with the future of the Genesis at the Detroit Auto Show.