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Luxury car market may never look the same
I especially like this statement from the article, which I think is why Hyundai is having some success with the Genesis and what partially drove the decision to bring the Equus over here...
The word “value” is something one hears with uncommon frequency. Even the most prestigious marques are rejiggering their economic equations
I'm not sure about that historical note regarding ABS either, at least not for highline MBs in the US market.
I'd also be more concerned with total sales figures rather than just US figures, which will become less relevant as the globalized new world order makes the continent a second world backwater.
However, there is competition for a perception of "value" in the 40-50K segment - where the Genesis lives. I don't know how much cred the concept is given when you go much higher than that.
Not exactly ----- what you are calling 'competitor's' actually aren't - and its not as much the car as is it about the price. A nice car that can be bought for under $40k should (and usually will) sell more than one that is 15 or $20k higher - a fare bigger market.. The Genesis is getting most of its sales ,I contend, from those that would otherwise end up in Avalons, Maxs and other upscale sedans - not those true lux buyers that buy the true luxury sedans. Now tell me that an Equus will someday outsell something at a similar price category - then Hyundai has made it in the luxury mfgrs.
No, of course not. Because that would be a sure sign of the Genesis' success in the marketplace, and I know you won't hear any of that kind of talk.
Why is price the only way to determine competition? Cars like the Avalon and Maxima are gussied-up FWD family cars. They are not RWD V8 sedans with the attributes of the Genesis. Cars do not compete only on price. Unless you are saying that every buyer is out to buy as much car as he/she can get for $X. That puts the Genesis in "competition" with a slew of vehicles, including high-end Camcords, low-end FWD near-luxury cars, a whole bunch of SUVs, minivans, and sporty cars like the 350Z, WRX and Evo.
as it should be - company reputations are established on those cars with visibility and volume. Just like the Camcords established quality reputations for Toyota and Honda, so must it happen for Hyundai. It's a whole lot easier to move into other markets once that quality rep is there.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I'd link to his website instead of Amazon, but most of the links there don't work. Guess he can't afford to pay the website hosting bill. Maybe that's part of his secret. :P
It is pretty good stuff though.
Ok, here's his link.
I've yet to find a copy of Where Are the Customers' Yachts to borrow. It's a classic from the 40's.
Most of it is for naught anyway - it will all just be eaten up by offspring, which comes back again to how so much of it is built.
(that's actually quite a good book too).
Not if you give it away to other (deserving) people first.
CR considers the Genesis 4.6 to be a Luxury Sedan, based on price. As it does the S80 and Town Car.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.hyundai-blog.com/index.php/2009/09/29/hyundai-equus-limousine/
If costing over $40k gets a Genesis (or anything else) a luxury car classification then I would suggest that CR might not have a real handle on how easy it is to get to $40 grand on almost anything reasonably nice these days :sick: Price (as it would effect difficulty in attainability and exclusiveness) , however, 'important' it be to determining what it and isn't luxury, it isn't nearly the only thing.....
The 4 banger will offer Direct Injection, so I expect to see 180hp or so, which a few competitors are getting now.
Still, the outgoing V6 offers 234 hp, and that will limit the price they can get for a Sonata. The take rate was 15% for the V6, by the way. Say 1/3rd of those will be OK with the DI 4 banger, 2/3rds walk, they'd still lose 10% of sales.
Will the DI offer good enough fuel economy to offset that loss? We'll see.
It could work - more people would move up to the Azera or even pony up for a V6 Genesis (which is what I'd do if I wanted a Hyundai sedan).
I'd pick an Elantra over a Sentra.
Heck, I'd pick a Versa over a Sentra.
Nissan has a very inconsistent lineup - some good cars, some disappointing.
Look, backy, here's the problem:
Anyone can say Genesis has outsold Infiniti M and Lexus GS or BMW 5 series. OTOH they never, even once, mention whether customers ACTUALLY cross shop those models.
Genesis is cross shopped with other $30-40k models, hence if you exclude the $40k+ models, then the success is still good, but not as amazing as you believe.
As far as the D3 goes, Ford is probably making the best showing with its products and I further believe that their 'we didn't take a penny' ads are having the desired effect although they conveniently forget to mention the $23 billion in junk bonds or all the employment they now provide over the borders.
Any of the D3, however, would do well, IMO, if they could do what the Koreans are doing and with what they are doing it with.
Did you see the list if cars that Genesis owners are trading in? There are a lot of MB's and BMW's being traded in. Many were leased, but that's a small detail. I think Avalon's and Acura's are taking the biggest hit, but don't underestimate the number of "true luxury" cars being traded in and cross shopped.
The article that I read somewhere... uh I think it's cars.com... stated that most of the trade-ins were Honda Accords and Nissan Maximas, Acura TL and Buick LeSabres. True there were quite a few MBs and BMWs, however they're mostly older models. Plus I won't bet against them being the value shoppers who bought those cars used to begin with.
So far I haven't seen, met, nor heard any, any new $40+k luxury car buyer trading his/hers for a Genesis.
That's the truth, as much as I like Genesis, it's not a true luxury car.
But getting an LS buyer, for example, to 'accept' a Hyundai product is entirely a different story - even if he is saving 20 or 25 large.
It's a near-luxury car.
The BMW 3 series isn't a luxury car, either. Nor is a C-class, or a TL, or a Lexus ES.
NO! Hyundai, the corporation, is not near ready to match the real luxury makes. Their attitude toward cars and customers just is not there and may never be. The dealers I have dealt with are much better than the corporation itself, particularly Hyundai Motor America - or is that Amerika?
While they can make a very good car that is cheaper than others comparably equipped, how did they make it cheaper?
Hyundai's greatest advantage, maybe only one, is its ability to sell cars cheaply, or should that be cheap cars. :shades:
think that's a bit harsh - Hyundai has been living exclusuvely in the lower ends of the market for years and years, a place where price is king and unit margins are small. They need a bit of that attitude - to survive. Creations like the Genesis Sedan certainly illustrate the ability to produce what is a fine automobile, the trick will end up being if they can keep the whole 'cheap is good' thing in its proper perspective - meaning that if they know they have something that is that good then it doesn't necessarily have to be the cheapest.
And then, of course, they can address the whole problem of getting their customers to understand the same thing.!
This is old news, and previously posted here, but to save you time searching previous posts for it, here it is:
We know that 40% of those buying Genesis have traded in vehicles like Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche.
http://www.mediapost.com/publications/?fa=Articles.showArticle&art_aid=97562
So now you have HEARD, at least, of $40+k luxury car owners trading his/her car for a Genesis.
Very interesting. First, you use CR's ratings classes to back your opinion that the Genesis sedan is not a "luxury car", because the Genesis 3.8 they tested isn't in their "Luxury Sedan" category. But now that you realize that the Genesis 4.6 would qualify for that category, based on price, suddenly CR doesn't have a clue on what a "luxury car" is. I am glad though that you finally acknowledge that price is not the only determinant of what a luxury car is. For example, how many "luxury sedans" do you know have FWD? I can't think of one, offhand.
I am curious--is your favorite kind of shoe "flip flops"?
you are reading what you want to read - and what the Hyundai marketing mavens would like you to read. This doesn't say that 40% of Genesis buyers are trading 'down' from their German or high end Japanese sedans..
What exactly is 'a car like a Lexus, BMW/MB' etc - a Lincoln TC, an Avalon, a well optioned out Impala? Its an undefined statement that really means nothing, a' car like' could obviously be whatever Hyundai's marketing dept. wants it to be.
Oh, goodness, backy, you still miss my point.
1) Sure there are people trading in BMWs and Lexus, and even... Porsche??? Let your logic do the part, how is it sensible for a Porsche driver to trade his/her ride for a Genesis??? A sportscar to a comfort biased sedan???
2) Which leads to my question (same as always): there's zero explanation on WHY they trade their rides for a Genesis (read: most possibly due to financial condition IMO)
3) No part of those articles even tell us whether those customers bought their trade-in luxo cars NEW to begin with (apparently the point you totally missed in my previous post, but that may be me misphrasing my point).
4) What MY are those trade-ins?
To be honest, that article actually added my doubts. "We know..."??? Really? How accurate...
The way I see it Hyundai has the chance for luxury market. What it needs are time, preparation, and patience. Unfortunately, Hyundai seems to completely neglect the last part, while at the same time still working on the second part.
The customer service in my area has improved, but, and it's a fatal but, it's still not up to par with the rest of near-luxury players. To move further upmarket with this kind of preparation is a fatal flaw in my book. Right now we're in tough times, and tough times is always an advantage for value players like Genesis. If America never got into this mess I doubt Genesis would've made this much success (given the lack of preparations).
But fairly speaking, I'll wait and see what Hyundai will become when Equus really enters the market.
As for their attitude towards cars... well, all I can say is wait until you try Equus firsthand. You might come out impressed, I was (except for the design part). :shades:
Since the introduction, I've only seen two driving around.
Since their sales numbers are decent, I know that the cars have to be there, but I'm just not recognizing them as Genesis'.
I wonder if Hyundai would be better served in updating the (although very handsome) styling to be more dramatically distinctive?
2025 Ram 1500 Laramie 4x4 / 2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Icon I6L Golf Cart
OTOH I just saw Forte for the first time today, not bad at all. The tall rear end is a bit weird and blocky, but everything else look good.
Forte and the '11 Sorento are the 2 good looking Kias in my book.
I see 2-3 every day, no kidding.
1) The number of each make, year, and model of car traded for this other car, worldwide. Or to make it a bit easier, how about just for North America.
2) An explanation of WHY each car was traded for the other car. The explanation must of course provide enough detail to satisfy you.
3) What price the car trader paid originally for the car being traded. That price must be over a certain threshold to be deemed "acceptable". So, for example, if the original car was bought slightly used, rather than "new", that is not acceptable. It might not be acceptable also if the original car was purchased new, but at a huge discount. Obviously then the car is not a "luxury car" if not purchased new or purchased at a big discount.
So now it is my turn to say.... Oh, goodness, m4d_cow. What scrutiny you put on people who trade their cars from luxury brands for a Genesis.
If it is so important to you to get this level of detail on the trade-ins of Genesis buyers, here's what I suggest you do. Take a month off work. Ask your local Hyundai dealer if you can hang out there for the month. Every time someone buys a Genesis there, ask them what they traded (all the details--make, model, year, whether purchased new or not, purchase price), and if the trade was from a luxury brand, ask why in heaven's name they traded their car for "a comfort biased sedan." If there's more than one Hyundai dealer in your area, maybe you could do one per month until you've covered them all. Then report back to us here on what you've discovered.
P.S. I think it's entirely possible someone traded their Porsche Cayenne for a Genesis. People are trading SUVs for sedans all the time these days.
P.P.S. I also think it's entirely possible, and actually likely, that Hyundai closely tracked the early Genesis buyers to see what kind of buyer was attracted to the car. They could gather info on trades either by surveying their dealers or surveying the Genesis owners. Not very hard to do that.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
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