Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

captain2

The problem was not the car, it was the warranty. IIRC, it was only 3 years and 36K miles. Ridiculous! I don't think he will caught again. His new car has a 5 year or longer warranty.
there you go again - implying that there is some sort of correlation between a car's reliability and its length of warranty. Now that is - ridiculous! Because if that was true it would be the Hondas and Toyotas of the world that would have the worst repair records, when the opposite is generally true.
Think you simply need to face the facts, Hyundai does what it does warranty wise because they have to. Nothing at all to do with the quality of Hyundai branded cars - good or bad.

houdini1

There you go again. Both of the luxury divisions of Honda and Toyota offer longer warranties than their regular division...as befitting luxury cars.

british_rover

Park/Brake interlock or neutral safety switch are the usual causes of that but they are easy to fix. Those are external transmissions issues yours must have been something internal. Maybe the parking pawl got jammed or something.

british_rover

Next time someone says, "There you go again," I am putting up a pictures of Regan.

captain2

>Both of the luxury divisions of Honda and Toyota offer longer warranties than their regular division...as befitting luxury cars

of course and so? Lexus, in your example, makes what are generally recognized as the most well built and least troublesome cars available DESPITE being technological tour-de-forces. - and they can get well over $70k for a well optioned LS.
The Lexus warranty being slightly more than what Toyota itself offers would mean what? Or BMW doing the bumper-to-bumper/service thing then would mean what? The only thing it means is this is what the given mfgr has to do (or doesn't have to do) to sell his product. Nothing more, nothing less.

fintail

Parking pawl....I think that's what it was. It cost a pretty penny to fix, but it was cool of MB to at least give some help. I wonder if they'd do the same today.

british_rover

Oh yeah a parking pawl is incredibly strong. I have seen cars that were thrown into park at speed not have any real damage to a parking pawl. Cars that were hit while parked still have no real damage on the pawl.

As much as Merc over engineered their cars back then I imagine a parking pawl problem would be highly unusual.

houdini1

Then you agree that Hyundai is in good company.

captain2

Then you agree that Hyundai is in good company.
not exactly - because Hyundai does NOT make luxury cars. And I'll bet that I won't live long enough to see Hyundai (or pretty much anybody else) approach the standards set by somebody like Lexus. For a product to be so mechanically (and technologically) sophisticated and complex and then for that same product to lead the pack when it comes to quality and reliability standards - now THAT is nothing short of amazing. But, most Lexuses you see ARE luxury cars. There is some truth in the adage - you get what you pay for - or don't.

houdini1

You have some very peculiar ideas about luxury cars. Consumers Union grouped the Genesis with the Mercedes S class, the LS 460, and the A8. And the Genesis was named a recommended pick.

I think you and confusing luxury with "snob factor". A very simplistic way to think IMO.

For years I have owned nothing but Lexus and currently own two. They are fine automobiles for sure...but so is the Genesis. The Genesis is in the right place at the right time and is cutting a wide swath thru the rest of luxury segment.

british_rover

Using your definition of a luxury car I would think the only Luxury Lexuses would be the GS, SC and LS.

The Lexus SUVs are all based on Toyota models sold in the US.

The ES is just a Camry with nicer interior and IMO an uglier exterior.

The IS isn't nearly exclusive enough and is really a sporty sedan and not a luxury sedan or a Sports sedan.

toye

Why does anyone respond to this person. This person has no respect for Hyundai. Stuck with an 80's mentality, and will NEVER change his mind now or in the future. This forum goes over the same subject over and over it's time to move on.

captain2

Using your definition of a luxury car I would think the only Luxury Lexuses would be the GS, SC and LS.
Yep, there is such a thing as a 'Luxury' brand that does have particular models that aren't 'luxury', The Lexus ES and low end IS - not lux simply upscale. So much of Acura's products the MDX, TSX, and TL are non- luxury that it is hard to give the whole brandname a pass into 'lux' land. BMW and MB perhaps define what a luxury brand is but they also tempt the lux definition with their more mundane 1s and Cs.
Folks like Hyundai can't be a lux brand and still be a mainstream brand, much in the same way that the J3 and the D3 mfgrs can't. The Gen sedan, as good as it is, will never be a luxury car - as a 'Hyundai'. Don't believe that even the $50k+ Equus will make the cut either unless some effort is made at differentiation.
Can the Hyundais/Toyotas/Nissans/Fords of the world sell nice luxurious cars - sure- they already do. In deference to a point that carolinabob made awhile back - yes - a luxury car will also be one with a prestiguous nameplate. Hence the problem with Hyundai finding a place in the luxury market.

LASHAWN

Can I have some of what your smoking? Their are only 2 real luxury manufacturers out there in the world. Rolls Royce and Bentley, period. Everybody else is just upscale luxury, not prestige or pure. My definition of luxury car is one that costs more than $250k. Don't think Lexus, MB(other than Maybach), BMW, Infiniti or Acura make anything in this ballpark.

fintail

CU is on crack to group those cars together. Different sizes of body and engines, different performance, different gadgetry. That's just wacky.

bobad

there you go again - implying that there is some sort of correlation between a car's reliability and its length of warranty. Now that is - ridiculous!

My son certainly thought the warranty was too short. I think anyone would wish for a longer warranty if a rod started knocking. Are you sure you don't live on Bizarro World? :confuse:

backy

...a luxury car will also be one with a prestiguous nameplate.

So... what is prestigious about a "Genesis" nameplate? :confuse:

Isn't it your contention that to offer the Genesis sedan and Equus as a "true" luxury cars, Hyundai needs to start up a luxury brand ala "Genesis"? But how does that marque bring prestige? It has no history. It doesn't stand for anything, really, except one book in The Holy Bible and a WMD (or WMC depending on your point of view) from a sci-fi movie. How would sticking "Genesis" nameplates on these cars and removing the canted H badges suddenly make non-luxury cars, luxury cars?

joshuag

I think the problem is, that is how I would say 50% of people in the real world feel about Hyundai. They judge them all on the 80's cars. I tell a lot of my friends who are looking for a car to look at a Hyundai, and they say that they are not sure it would be all that reliable. The thing is, that so not true these days. We have had many Hyundai's in my family and they have all been very reliable. My sister has had a Santa Fe going on 8 years now with basically no problems. I test drove a 3.8 Genesis and that is a luxury car. A friend of mine has a 2007 Lexus es and in my opinion the Genesis is nicer, and you just can't beat the warranty.

deltheking

Don't know if you have access to CR but your statement is totally false.CR groups the Genesis with the Acura TL,ES,Infiniti G,BMW 3,Cadillac CTS,Lincoln MKZ--not the LS or 7 series. The luxury sedans are LS,MB E and S series,BMW 5 and 7 series,Jaguar.Don't know where you got the facts from-- but this is as per CR ratings as I have access to them. :shades:

houdini1

The groupings I was referring to are from Consumer Guide Magazine, not Consumer Reports.

deltheking

OK,My mistake. Misread that.!! Saw Consumer and straightway it was CR.Never heard of Consumer guide magazine before. But will search the internet for that. :shades:

backy

Actually it was not your mistake. The original post said "Consumers Union", which publishes Consumer Reports (CR). Consumers Union is a different organization than Consumer Guide. But they are frequently confused with each other... like here for example!

houdini1

You are absolutely right. That was my mistake !!

iluvmysephia1

glean from this carsite. I have perused Consumer's Guide for years and IIRC they treat Hyundai/Kia much like mainstream media has for years. That they need to go back to school and do some learnin' from Hon-Duh, etc.

But I've noticed they've paid some much-earned respect to H/K in the last two or three years as to build quality and price, and features offered.

bobad

CG doesn't even list Genesis in the upscale large car category.

deltheking

Wrong,Consumers guide infact does list Genesis along with LS,S class,7 series under the Premium large Cars category unlike CR which does not.

Here's the link.The bottom of the page from Consumers guide has the Genesis along with LS,S,7series.

link title

houdini1

If you read the review on the Genesis in CG, it places it in the large premium car category...along with the S class and LS 460.

bobad

OK, thanks guys. I was looking in the wrong category.

ateixeira

I get the print editions of Consumer's Guide, because IMHO they have the best format for equipment levels by model, and clear pricing.

They'll list the standard equipment of a base DX model, then say "LX adds" and "EX adds" so you know exactly what you're paying for.

Having said that, I think their reviews are flaky. When my 98 Forester was new, it was their top rated small SUV (Best Buy). As new models came out, they simply lowered the score for the Forester, and slotted newer models above it, giving them the honors, and moving the Forester to merely Recommended.

Thing is, the Forester didn't go through any changes. They simply lowered their score for the same vehicle.

So I don't put too much faith in their reviews, but I do see them as a useful auto encyclopedia of sorts.

Consumer Reports, from Consumer's Union, is not affiliated with them.

lemko

Well, it's also Phil Collin's old band. Somehow replacing the interlocking ovals with a tipsy "L" worked for Lexus.

backy

The L only worked for Toyota because Toyota had established itself as a maker of high-quality, reliable cars. So the L carried some weight.

I guess those who are saying that Hyundai should launch a Genesis brand (or should have launched a Genesis brand before any Genesis cars were sold) are acknowledging that Hyundai as a brand has enough acceptance and reputation for quality and reliability to support the launch of a luxury brand ala "Genesis."

captain2

I guess those who are saying that Hyundai should launch a Genesis brand (or should have launched a Genesis brand before any Genesis cars were sold) are acknowledging that Hyundai as a brand has enough acceptance and reputation for quality and reliability to support the launch of a luxury brand ala "Genesis."

Interesting spin - but keep guessing I suppose - because what I've been saying is that Hyundai needs to have a Genesis brand because it would lend some separation from the Hyundai brand - WHY? Because the Hyundai brand doesn't have the same degree of acceptance or rep that Toyota had 20 years ago, or FTM even today. IMO it is a shame not to give a perfectly good car a fighting chance by handicapping it with a name.

backy

OK, then can you please clear up a couple of things for me?

1. How many Lexus buyers do you think are not aware that Lexus vehicles are made by Toyota?

2. How many people do you think would not be aware that vehicles sold under a "Genesis" brand are made by Hyundai?

3. What is there about a "Genesis" brand that would provide buyers with the confidence they need to plop $30-50k or more down on a car? Do you think they are going to see a "Genesis" badge on a car at a dealership with a "Genesis" sign out front and think, "Ohhh, Genesis! Yes, they make great cars! I know that because... because... well, it's called 'Genesis' and not something like 'Hyundai'! Yes, that's it!" :confuse: :surprise:

tjc78

Captain,

I don't understand your logic here. You infer that Hyundai doesn't have a good reputation, however you say that if you create another brand (still a Hyundai underneath) that will change things? Let me ask you this: If Chrysler right now created another (lux) divsion called "Imperial" that all of a sudden they could sell the 300 for 50K or 60K, and the public would see it as "better"?

I do agree that a lux division from Hyundai would add "snob appeal" and allow them to get more money for the Genesis, however, I do not believe that would change any perceptions. Actually, your reason for why Toyota was able to do it (degree of acceptance) is the exact spin of why Hyundai can not do it yet. Aside from the overall funk the auto industry is in right now.

backy

So, you do not see the Genesis sedan accepted in the marketplace, nor Hyundai overall?

tjc78

Hyundai still has a stigma of cheap econoboxes from the late 80s. People who follow the auto industry know the great strides Hyundai has made. However, many that don't still consider them junk.

So, you do not see the Genesis sedan accepted in the marketplace

No, I don't. There are some people that still can/will not ever spend 35+ on a Hyundai. I would be willing to bet that if you took a bunch of typical car buyers (not car mag reading, forum type people like us) and line up an Avalon, Maxima, and a Genesis and said "pick one" only knowing the nameplate. I would bet everytime that the Genesis is in last place. Again, only, because of the name. As has been said over and over, perceptions are hard to change.

nor Hyundai overall?'
I do accept them as I own a Genesis, but only in the last few years. I personally believe they make a fantastic vehicle, however, 5+ years ago I wouldn't have even stepped foot in the showroom.

backy

There are some people that still can/will not ever spend 35+ on a Hyundai.

I am sure there are many who said 25 years ago that no one would ever spend $35k+, or $50k+, or even much more, on a Toyota (by whatever name). But that is commonplace today. It took you five years for you to not wanting to step into a Hyundai showroom to owning a Genesis. That's quite a leap in a fairly short time.

I have followed Hyundai closely for over 20 years. The first Hyundai I considered buying was the original Excel. I took one for a drive. That was the end of that. The next Hyundai I drove was the 1997 Elantra. I nearly bought one, but got an even better deal (!) on a Sentra demo, and I thought it was a more refined car. Then the 2001 Elantra hooked me. It was the first Hyundai that I thought was superior to its Japanese competition.

So it took me about 15 years from the time I first set foot in a Hyundai dealership to my buying one--and about 10 years before I seriously considered buying one. You made the leap faster than I did. I think many others have, and will also.

bobad

IMO it is a shame not to give a perfectly good car a fighting chance by handicapping it with a name.

I think that's an irrational way of looking at it. It sounds like you believe car buyers are so uneducated they would buy on name only, yet here we are on Edmunds doing detailed research.

I have some swamp land for sale at $1000 per acre for all my Edmunds friends but you. For you, I will label it "virgin wetland", and the price is $10,000 per acre.

Give it up Captain2, the buying public is moving away from blind brand loyalty. Everyone has access to the Internet, and can research more important things, like reliability, customer satisfaction, and warranty. Before the electronic age, brand used to be the only assurance car buyers would be happy with their purchase. That ship has sailed, and left you behind.

captain2

1. Of course I think would think that everybody is going to know who makes Lexus - the diference though is that I don't think many think of Lexus as a Toyota but instead a luxury brand in its own right. Which it is - even in the case of the ES there is enough differentiation to separate from a luxed out Camry. The other Lexus vehicles though are pretty much unique to Lexus, and none of them, of course, are sold at 'lowly' Toyota dealers.

2. The fact that Hyundai is making no effort to differentiate the Genesis IS the problem. Hyundai is NOT a luxury brand and nor are Hyundais sold at luxury dealers.

3. Don't understand what you are trying to say here, but other than simple vehicle content I don't believe there is anything about a "Genesis" (if we consider it a brand) that would justify a higher price. Perhaps because it is being sold as a Hyundai, it should have the lower price that it does.

captain2

It sounds like you believe car buyers are so uneducated they would buy on name only, yet here we are on Edmunds doing detailed research
folks buy cars ALL THE TIME based on name only, and it applies to a whole lot more than cars. And, of course, any of us car nuts that would spend the kind of time we do on sites like this are certainly going to know all about something like the Genesis and therefore be more likely to consider the car for what it actually is (or isn't).
There remains a significant segment of the auto buying public, though, that wouldn't be caught dead in a Hyundai product. Not that it won't change or FTM is changing, just the way it is.

ateixeira

Remember, if they did that, costs would go up, and they'd have to charge more. Big risk in the current economy. It's not automatically the good idea a lot of folks here seem to think.

Hyundai doesn't have to play by the same rules as everyone else.

We keep saying Lexus this, Lexus that, but look at Infiniti. Has it truly been a profitable venture for Nissan?

Probably not. This is why Renault owns them today.

Maybe the name of this thread should be "Should Hyundai follow Nissan into the red and get POWNED by someone else?"

formersuver1

Because from what I can tell, opinions are pretty well set in concrete--in my opinion, most people (me included) had never heard of, nor had feelings one way or the other about Hyundai before the MY 2006 Sonata came out. I drove and then bought one--a few weeks later my brother bought one and just a few months ago, he bought a Genesis--BECAUSE of the Hyundai name, not in spite of it....we've both had excellent service from our total of three Hyundais (and from the dealership in Golden Valley, MN.)

stever

yet here we are on Edmunds doing detailed research.

We're working as hard as we can but most people still do little research I'm afraid. Otherwise we wouldn't be fielding questions about mop & glow or window etching or payment buying or rustproofing or paint sealant.

You forum members are way ahead of the curve. Better go buy your luxury Genesis's before the rest of the world figures it out and Hyundai bumps the prices up.

captain2

You infer that Hyundai doesn't have a good reputation, however you say that if you create another brand (still a Hyundai underneath) that will change things? Let me ask you this: If Chrysler right now created another (lux) divsion called "Imperial" that all of a sudden they could sell the 300 for 50K or 60K, and the public would see it as "better"?

I'm not inferring that Hyundai doesn't have a good reputation, I saying instead that it has an improving reputation. The point I make all has to do with whether that reputation and how the brand is perceived overall is the right one - if we are addressing the whole 'Hyundai as a luxury player' question. All the 'H' fanboys that populate this forum don't seem to want to understand this - this all has nothing to do with Hyundai's products at all, but it does have a lot to do with what people (probably mistakenly) think about them. Time does have a way of healing all wounds.

A new Genesis brand (and a dedicated Genesis dealer) occurs to me to be a way to speed that process of lux acceptance, and eventually should be inevitable if Hyundai is ever going to produce a luxury car and/or have a luxury brand.

No, nobody's going to pay $50 or $60k for a Chrysler product either (no backy Vipers don't count for the same reason that Vettes don't count) , as a 'Chrysler' or as a Imperial, for many of the same reasons that Hyundai will likely never make a luxury car - although personally I would pay MORE money for a Genesis 4.6 Sedan than I would for 300 SRT8. And I would be buying a better car - albeit not a 'luxury' one (in either case)

captain2

had feelings one way or the other about Hyundai before the MY 2006 Sonata came out.
you are now the second poster (I remember) that seems to think that Hyundai made some sort of magical transformation circa 2006. Whether that actually be the case or not, it begs the question of whether auto buyers have memories that last for a whole lot longer than 4 lousy years.

formersuver1

I would argue that anyone who goes back MORE than 2-3 yrs. in judging an auto mfgrs. present quality is making a big mistake. Example: One of my sisters-in-law had a 2005 Toyota Avalon--based on good experiences with that one, she bought a 2009 Avalon without doing proper due diligence--not only has fit-and-finish clearly deteriorated, her 2009 has been very troublesome mechanically (and personally, I think way overpriced for what you get). She bought a new car based on the quality and history of a mfg. from 5 yrs ago. Big mistake.

tjc78

Example: One of my sisters-in-law had a 2005 Toyota Avalon--based on good experiences with that one, she bought a 2009 Avalon without doing proper due diligence--not only has fit-and-finish clearly deteriorated, her 2009 has been very troublesome mechanically (and personally, I think way overpriced for what you get).

Can't understand why, aside from the transmission there is little difference between the models. My '06 Avalon only had one little sensor problem in three years and 36K. How do you figure its overpriced??? As compared to what? I sat in an '09 before I got my Genesis and couldn't see any difference in quality to my '06.

tjc78

A new Genesis brand (and a dedicated Genesis dealer) occurs to me to be a way to speed that process of lux acceptance,

I understand where you are coming from, however, in this economy I fully and completely understand why they haven't done it. It would be a loosing propostiion for at least 5 years IMO. Not only for them, but for the dealer network as well. There just wouldn't be enough volume to support all the staff neccessary. Even if you put some serious $$ into a few more models (Sonata lux version, Veracruz upgrade etc) I just don't see it.

I'm not inferring that Hyundai doesn't have a good reputation, I saying instead that it has an improving reputation.

Good statement there. Hyundai is kinda in the same situation as the domestics.... qualilty has improved, but, its just taking a while for the masses to really take notice. Hyundai, IMO is coming around faster though.

lokki

Give it up Captain2, the buying public is moving away from blind brand loyalty. Everyone has access to the Internet, and can research more important things, like reliability, customer satisfaction, and warranty

On another site that I frequent there's currently a comparison review of an Audi A6, BMW 5-Series, Infiniti M, Jaguar XF, Lexus GS, and Mercedes-Benz E-Class.

The question has arisen of why the Genesis isn't included. Here are a cross-section of the comments regarding the Genesis:

What, no Hyundai Genesis?”

===
Seconding this. Not sure if it’s lacking in the “Sport” or the “Snobbery” category, but where’s the little Korean upstart here for the guys who made their money by saving it?
===

Unfortunately though Hyundai technically makes a great lux. car, it will be decades (or perhaps never) when Hyundai/Korea has the same visceral/emotional/impress-your-inlaws response as a Merc/BMW/Jag.
===

Even the V8 genesis sedan, much less the 6, does not belong here. The Genesis is a great VALUE and offers some interior luxury and power, but ZERO refinement, which is really what makes the BMWs, Audis and Mercs stand out. If you include the Genesis Sedan, all kinds of others will want to be included too, from the Chrysler 300 Hemi to the Taurus and Lincoln MKS Ecoboost, the Pontiac G8, and maybe a supercharged Buick or two.
===

Nope. Nice piece, but I doubt anyone who’s considering a $60,000 BMW will really cross shop Hyundai. Part of the rationale for buying a car like this is prestige – whether that’s right or wrong, smart or stupid is a good question – and Hyundai has no cred in this regard. And while it has the basics to compete in this class, it definitely lacks the handling finesse you expect of a car in this group. Maybe a Genesis / Taurus SHO / Chrysler 300C test in the future?
===

I’d love to see where the Hyundai Genesis fits next to the Lexus and Infinity.”
Why in the world would they include a Hyunda? Say that to yourself- Hyundai. You know, crappy cheap fall-apart in 5 yr Hyundai!
===

*(Since I'm not sure of the protocol regarding posting other websites, I'll refrain from my usual practice of including a link. For the Hosts' info, it's TTAC).

Now, these are not my opinions, nor are they all the opinions expressed at that site, but they're the concensus. This is not to say that these posters are right, but I think they're a fair representation of current public opinion - and these ARE [paraphrasing] people with access to the Internet, who can research more important things, like reliability, customer satisfaction, and warranty

My opinion is that a stand-alone dealership group would help for several reasons -

It would allow a more elegant customer experience for the customers 'flying first class'. I like the service that I've gotten from Acura and BMW. Lexus service is supposedly even better.

It would allow customers to easily explain to their friends that this isn't a Hyundai with the 'cheap car' perception that we've seen mentioned above. Customers could say, "It's by the same company, but it's exclusively built".

That's the path that Lexus and Acura, and Nissan - and for that matter Cadillac and Lincoln- have followed.

Cars that haven't followed that path - Volvo and SAAB come to mind - have failed. They may have moved upmarket but both are money-losers for sale with no takers. Volkswagen tried and failed, but will try again for some reason. Madza thrives, but has dropped its move upmarket. Subaru is moving upmarket, but not all the way from econobox to Luxury. They've moved from econobox to sport.

So, just because something hasn't been done before doesn't mean that it can't be done, but that's the way to bet.

FWIW

bobad

Great post lokki, your points are well taken.

One very smart thing Hyundai is doing is building a complete line of cars. They're making a $12K econo box, and a $50K Equus, with something for everyone under 1 roof. Some may see that as a negative, but I see it as very positive. Rather than have layers of customer care, I believe they want to have a high level of care for everyone.

My Hyundai dealer's service waiting room is fit for a Genesis owner, and makes an Elantra owner feel special. Spinning off a new brand has no benefit for the average Hyundai owner, so why should Hyundai do that?