Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

tjc78

it is also comparable to the entry-level luxury sedans offered by Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti!

Yes, that is the case with all of these vehicles. The luxury nameplates are similar in price but are generally smaller vehicles

Some examples...
Avalon - ES350
Maxima - G
Accord - TSX
Taurus - MKZ

All these vehicles compare in price point (and probably equipment) but you have down in size to go to the Luxury nameplate.

smarty666

you might not like it backy, but unfortunately, most non-car enthusiast who don't care what kind of car they drive as long as its nice looking and gets them from point A to point B, which is most of the general public, when they go to buy or lease a car, they typically compare cars based on price, due to the constraints they have with their budget

you are right to a point that there is more to cars then simply their price when you go to compare them but unfortunately most people don't realize that, some do, like ourselves but not the majority!

typically people compare price first, then they look at the cars in their price budget and then decide of their choices whether they need something with lots of room, a compact, or what ever they specifically need in the car that meets their budget!

Luckily for me, I am like you, when I go to look at cars to buy I don't compare them initially by price, I look at the features I want and roughly the size of the car I'm looking for; I personally, hate small,compact cars, which is the main reason why I didn't get a G37 despite the fact I loved everything about the car and how it drove and handled, it was just way to small on the inside and I hate feeling cramped in a car; finally when I'm down to 2 or 3 cars I'll ask myself the question is the extra money on the window worth it for what I want??

One thing I am really happy to see Hyundai do away with was that ugly [non-permissible content removed] green illumination of the dash and console at night!! I hated that, I think they have switch to blue and white now right?

backy

I suppose there are some people who think, "I have $X, I'll look at every single vehicle in that price range." But I suspect there's more buyers who have a certain set of other criteria in mind re what utility they need out of a vehicle--interior room, cargo capacity, off-roading or not, performance, fuel economy etc. etc.

fintail

How are you telling a 3 year old from a 5 year old car? Most MB BMW and Lexus have not seen significant changes during those timeframes.

I have never denied Hyundai's success

toye

I called my friend at the dealership and asked what the model year on the MB, BMW and Lexus cars in question and he said that they were 07's and 08's and one 04.

fintail

Very convenient

captain2

As for the V8/RWD argument the Chrysler 300 is RWD and can be had with a V8 does that make it a luxury car?
A point that I've been arguing for awhile. A full boat SRT8 will blow the doors off a Genesis 4.6 in about any meaningful performance measure , will cost about the same bucks, and even offer pretty much the same bling. But no, it is NOT a luxury car if for no other reason than it wears that Chrysler badge - much like the Genesis cannot be a luxury car with a Hyundai badge.
As outwardly 'luxurious' and performance oriented as either car might be - we are not looking at the cars themselves as much as we are looking at brand perceptions.
There are BTW plans for Ford to bring in the Australian Falcon and for the G8 to be rebadged as a Chevy Caprice , 350-400 hp RWD V8, of course - guess we need to be clearing the decks for more 'luxury cars'.

backy

There is a way to settle this foolishness. Toye, give us the name of the Hyundai dealer. Fintail, either call them or check their car listings on cars.com or wherever they are listed. Check the Carfax reports (often dealers provide free online access to them). Those will state whether or not the cars were obtained via auction or not.

Then we can return to our regularly scheduled programming.

backy

So, you perceive no differences between the SRT8 and Genesis that might tell you the SRT8 is aimed at the "boy racer" market and the Genesis at the entry-level luxury sedan market? None at all???

toye

King Hyundai Deerfield Beach

2008 BMW, INFINT
2007 3 BMW, INFINT
2006 2 MB
2005 LEX
2004 LEX

from their website

captain2

you perceive no differences between the SRT8 and Genesis that might tell you the SRT8
no, actually quite a few - but in either case, the 300 or the Gen (at $42k or whatever) , I would not be buying a luxury car. The question at hand was whether a silly V8 in a RWD platform was necessarily a 'luxury car' qualification. I contend plainly NO, but that it does have much more to do with how those particular brands are perceived.
A luxury car must meet some minimal vehicle size and performance standards - (things that'll certainly almost require RWD) but they must also meet those standards that are largely dictated by brand reputation, how that brand is perceived (and sold), and lastly what that product is sold for (read commonality).
Whether it's the 'boy racer' 300 or the Gen - Chrysler and Hyundai have both met with most of what a 'luxury car' must physically be - but they both fail miserably in the last parts of the equation.

lemko

A Chrysler used to be considered a luxury car, but they threw that image away when they started making the low-priced Newport back in the early 1960s.

millwood0

so from that should we conclude that luxury, Hyundai style, is comparably out of sync vs. other luxury brands?

millwood0

I think the answer to that question depends critically on what you mean by "luxury".

tenpin288

Chrysler and Hyundai have both met with most of what a 'luxury car' must physically be - but they both fail miserably in the last parts of the equation.

Cap'n,

I might agree with your take if you were discussing what differentiates a "prestige" brand from a "non-prestige" brand. My take is that you can find luxury in many different brands, even in the brands that offer the small A and B class cars (Mercedes, BMW, Audi, oh and maybe Hyundai :P ), and they can indeed be able to have some of their vehicles included in the "luxury" market. There have been many times you have espoused that a car manufacturer that builds those small cars or low-end cars can not be included in the "luxury" market. Go ahead, reread some of your own posts earlier in this thread. My take is that the days of sharply delineated brand and market segmentation are gone, and hopefully for good. I find luxury where I find it, whether it is a Hyundai, BMW, Lexus, or Ford/Chrysler.GM or whatever brand I am looking at. Luxury is defined by fulfilling the needs and wants of the customer at a price/value that makes sense to them, not by some market pundit that just says so!

millwood0

"Luxury is defined by fulfilling the needs and wants of the customer at a price/value that makes sense to them,"

so a Yugo at $1, or a Pinto at $1.25 would be "luxury" to some people?

are you suggesting that a commonly accepted understanding of what constitutes "luxury" does not exist?

if luxury is simply a perception in the eyes of their beholder, as you suggested above, does the word "luxury" have any meaning at all?

fintail

There is nothing "regular" on this thread. Pay attention :P

If you want to be a moderator...this isn't the place.

fintail

So about half the vehicles were over 3 years old? Sounds like lease returns...

Are you sure you're not the Hyundai dealer, yourself?

fintail

Your last question si the one that answers everything - and the answer is "no". Luxury is subjective, it is in the eye of the beholder. H will be luxury to some, and will never be to others.

tjc78

As outwardly 'luxurious' and performance oriented as either car might be - we are not looking at the cars themselves as much as we are looking at brand perceptions.

I tend to agree with this. I have also said time and time again that no matter what anyone of us car guys thinks.... Hyundai (as a brand) is still not recognized as a top tier manufacturer. With Toyota's recent problems this could change faster than I thought though...

There are BTW plans for Ford to bring in the Australian Falcon and for the G8 to be rebadged as a Chevy Caprice , 350-400 hp RWD V8

Let's hope they do!!

houdini1

Tenpin, good post and it makes sense. I remember saying about the same thing maybe, oh, a couple of thousand posts or so ago !

Prestige is different from luxury and that is where the good captain is hung up.

captain2

A Chrysler used to be considered a luxury car
Remember the Imperial being the luxury entrant, and even then somewhat lower in statrue than Caddy or even Lincoln. Always considered the other Chryslers like the New Yorker/Cordoba/Newport more like Buick was to Cadillac. In any case, though, Chrysler is anything but a luxury brand today - perhaps they have digressed about as much as somebody like Hyundai has progressed?

captain2

don't see that we are really disagreeing too much here - this particular forum though is about the 'luxury market' though and not especially about any particular car that Hyundai might make. Yes, a car sold in the 'luxury market' must - by definition also be one with a prestiguous brand. It is not necessarily about any summation of specifications and/or fancy dan bling - it is also unfortunately' about what others think and also the exclusivity attached to whatever they buy.
Whether people all of a sudden are all going to drop their opinions about things and/or stop allowing those opinions to influence their decisions is something I haven't seen EVER. Human nature won't permit it - there will always be those that got it - and WANT to flaunt it!!!

toye

I probably could make a good salesman if I wanted to be. :shades:

captain2

Hyundai (as a brand) is still not recognized as a top tier manufacturer. With Toyota's recent problems this could change faster than I thought though...
Afraid there is still that black cloud that follows Hyujndai a bit and also that there is a significant percentage of autobuyers out there that won't buy a Korean anything -on principle. If they only knew?
However, your comment about Toyota's recent problems may indeed sway the balance - and Hyundai may eventually earn the reputations the Japanese did - more quickly (as you say) than it might otherwise. I do believe that has to happen before a Hyundai manufactured product (with any name) can find a place in the luxury market, however.

tjc78

However, your comment about Toyota's recent problems may indeed sway the balance

IMO Hyundai (and maybe Ford) have the most to gain from Toyota's current state.

captain2

no doubt - I'll be most interested in seeing what kind of memories the consumer has. I, for one, am not convinced yet that Toyota has really found the actual problem - I'm thinking it is more likely an electronics issue or even a programming issue. Toyota has always been quite aggressive when it comes to perceived 'safety features, this an unfortunate byproduct of progress, perhaps

backy

Well, I've already stated at least once recently and probably more than once what I consider a luxury car to be, and that it has nothing to do with the badge or the building in which it is sold. I'll avoid restating that position yet again since I'm sure folks here don't need or want someone's position to be stated over and over and over and over and over and ... etc.

bobad

I suppose you also like to directly compare cars like the Mini Cooper, Civic EX-L, Sonata, and Crown Vic, as they are all around the $20k price level.

In fact, that's what I do.

That's why I own a Sonata.

backy

Whether people all of a sudden are all going to drop their opinions about things and/or stop allowing those opinions to influence their decisions is something I haven't seen EVER.

We have already seen this behavior. It's already been documented in the press (see some earlier posts for examples). It's a fact. Not everyone is a slave to the almighty brands. The discussion is not, "Will everyone looking for a luxury car accept Hyundai in that market?" The discussion is, "Is there ROOM in the luxury market for Hyundai?" And based on the evidence, including Genesis sales to date and articles on shifting buying patterns away from pricey brands, there are buyers who accept Hyundai in the luxury market, i.e. there is ROOM in that market for Hyundai. If you want to discuss how MUCH room, I think that is a fair question.

bobad

so from that should we conclude that luxury, Hyundai style, is comparably out of sync vs. other luxury brands?

Have you driven a Genesis? It's a luxury car by any reasonable definition.

j2j

I'd say that the Veracruz is more of an upscale CUV than a luxury one - much like how the Azera, Cadenza, Avalon, Taurus, Maxima etc. are upscale large sedans.

Also, the whole luxury vs. non-luxury angle would have been better served by the Land Cruiser vs. LX comparison (particularly the 2nd gen LX which shared most of its body panels w/ the Land Cruiser).

j2j

Likely will be pretty close to that rendering.

Spy shots already show that the greenhouse is pretty spot on and based on the production version of the Kia Cadenza, the front fascia looks about right.

But yeah, not a luxury car, but a mainstream mid-sizer, albeit a very handsome one (if it comes to market anywhere close to the rendering).

j2j

"Audi doesn't feel a need to add "Motors" to their name, they know they won't be confused for a toaster or bicycle manufacturer."

Works for BMW, Rolls Royce Motor Cars and Bentley Motors.

And oh, Audi at one point was known as Auto Union.

j2j

"What really is a pain with cars like the Genesis, Maxima, and Avalon is, when you load them up, even a little bit they really encroach into luxury division prices despite the fact your still dealing with mediocre Hyundai, Nissan, and Toyota customer service and dealership experience, which obviously improves when you move up to a luxury division!"

Again, the Maxima and Avalon are large upscale sedans and not luxury models.

Otoh, the Genesis (sedan), the Phaeton, the GT-R, the 'Vette and Land Cruiser are all luxury sedans or high end sports cars (just short of exotic) and SUVs.

j2j

"if Hyundai is truly going to make it as a serious competitor against Toyota, Honda, Nissan, VW, GM and Ford I think at some point in the next 10 years they are going to have to establish some sort of luxury division because all of their major competitors have one, Honda-Acura, Nissan-Infiniti, Toyota-Lexus, GM-Cadillac, Ford-Lincoln, VW-Audi, and Hyundai-???

what do you guys think? will Hyundai have to do this to stay competitive?"

Putting aside the fact that the Genesis sedan outsold the Infiniti M and Lexus GS at a 2:1 margin for 2009 (and the A6 and S80 at an even greater rate); Hyundai has tentative plans to launch a premium marque in 5-6 years time to coincide w/ the launch of the next gen Genesis sedan and coupe (which will go upscale and be offered w/ the Tau V8) and a smaller "C segment" sedan that is currently in development (to compete against the 3 Series, C Class, G37, IS, etc.).

The next gen Equus and a likely CUV will follow thereafter.

j2j

"I understand your point, however my point was that I feel that the Genesis is in the same leauge as a Maxima or Avalon (300, Taurus too). As for the V8/RWD argument the Chrysler 300 is RWD and can be had with a V8 does that make it a luxury car?"

Once again, the Azera and the new Kia Cadenza are in the same class as the Maxima, Avalon, Taurus, etc. - all being large upscale FWD sedans.

As for the 300, it should have been luxury (well, at least as much luxury as Acura and Buick), but Chrysler cheapened out on the interior and using older Mercedes components certainly didn't help.

Remember, Chrysler is supposed to be the "luxury" (or at least upscale) brand while Dodge is the mainstream brand; unfortunately for Chrysler, too many years of inferior products have put a serious dent in Chrysler's image as a luxury marque (like it once was decades ago).

j2j

"A point that I've been arguing for awhile. A full boat SRT8 will blow the doors off a Genesis 4.6 in about any meaningful performance measure , will cost about the same bucks, and even offer pretty much the same bling. But no, it is NOT a luxury car if for no other reason than it wears that Chrysler badge - much like the Genesis cannot be a luxury car with a Hyundai badge.
As outwardly 'luxurious' and performance oriented as either car might be - we are not looking at the cars themselves as much as we are looking at brand perceptions. "

Again, you are making the mistake of CONFUSING luxury auto and luxury brand - they are not mutually exclusive.

By every account, the Phaeton is a luxury sedan and in many respects superior to the Audi A8.

As stated before, all Lexus models used to be Toyotas in Japan and the Toyota Crown series are considered luxury cars.

As for the SRT8 and Pontiac G8 - there are such things as performance-oriented sedans; which, while being powered by a V8 powerplant - don't exactly have a luxurious interior and appointments, much less use of higher end materials such as high tensile steel and double pane glass.

The 300 isn't seen as a true luxury model since it just isn't up to par - just another reason why the Chrysler moniker had lost its luxury status decades ago.

jimbres

The discussion is not, "Will everyone looking for a luxury car accept Hyundai in that market?" The discussion is, "Is there ROOM in the luxury market for Hyundai?" And based on the evidence, including Genesis sales to date and articles on shifting buying patterns away from pricey brands, there are buyers who accept Hyundai in the luxury market, i.e. there is ROOM in that market for Hyundai. If you want to discuss how MUCH room, I think that is a fair question.

Very well put.

fintail

BMW Motors? No. It is "motor works", as it built engines for other applications before cars.

Auto Union Motors? No

For the British, it is old tradition the verbiage. I don't think Korea was ever a British dependent.

I think Kia is just trying to look fancy

millwood0

"The discussion is, "Is there ROOM in the luxury market for Hyundai?" And based on the evidence, including Genesis sales to date and articles on shifting buying patterns away from pricey brands, there are buyers who accept Hyundai in the luxury market, i.e. there is ROOM in that market for Hyundai. "

if the notion is that if you can find a sucker to buy a product labeled "luxury", then you are in the luxury market and somehow that means there is room in the luxury market for your product, yes, you are right.

I would venture to say that most people meant something else when they asked that question: "is there room in the luxury market?" and/or "is there room in the luxury market for Hyundai?"

I would further venture to say that we are years, if not decades away, from seeing if Hyundai can make it in this market. My sense is that most automotive buyers wouldn't perceive Hyundai to be a luxury car marker, and even fewer would consider Genesis in their shopping for a luxury car.

Obviously, that may change and in its current states reflects a hugely positive trend for Hyundai vis-a-vis where they were even 10 years ago.

But that doesn't mean that Hyundai has made it. or the Genesis is on par with other luxury cars for most of the buyers, those little few used MB/BMW/Jag parked in front of that famed Hyundai dealership notwithstanding.

acdii

"What really is a pain with cars like the Genesis, Maxima, and Avalon is, when you load them up, even a little bit they really encroach into luxury division prices despite the fact your still dealing with mediocre Hyundai, Nissan, and Toyota customer service and dealership experience, which obviously improves when you move up to a luxury division!"

BINGO, this right here is what determine luxury vs non luxury. It isnt what is in the car, obviously when you put a Veracruz next to an RX350, you get the same features in each, very little between the two makes up for the difference in price. It is when you bring the expensive car in for service that you are treated well, and know you will have great service (albeit for a price), and the car repairs will be done promptly, timely and correctly, Hear that Hyundai!!!!!

I really like my Veracruz, but the service on it has been so poor that I am highly considering trading it in on a Ford Flex, at least then I know I will have good service done to it.

I had a problem with the AM filter on the radio, so I brought it in to have it looked at, they had to order a new radio, so a week later I bring it back to have them install it, and the one they got was wrong, they didn't even bother to check to see if the radio matched the part number on the box. Then they got a second one in, it was scratched, so I picked it up, and a week later brought it back for the 3rd time, They had the correct radio and it wasn't scratched. Fine, my wife picks it up, starts driving it home and discovers they nicked the steering wheel, a chunk was missing. So a week later new steering wheel, and they reset all my trip information, Why I don't know, the reset buttons are on the dash :confuse: I also has a weatherstrip that kept coming loose, so they replaced it, now that one keeps coming loose, from the top. I also noticed the engine just isn't the same since I got it back, it doesn't git up and go from a stop anymore, has a slight, not so much hesitation, but more of a flat spot. I have taken a falling out with my VC now, as I certainly don't want to take it back in for the 5th time. In all the cars I bought from a dealer, this is the only one I had to take it in 4 times for repairs. When I got my Fusion, I found a defect in a door panel, brought in in after work, 10 minutes later they had one on order, a week later, right after work brought it in, and 15 minutes later was driving away. I am seriously considering the Ford Flex now.

toye

Can an automaker instantly make it in the luxury market? My answer would be no.. as only time will tell!! Can an automaker make a splash into the luxury market? That would be my take on what Hyundai has acomplished! They will have to continue to make "splashes" over the course of the next few years to be fully excepted in the luxury domain. Lexus made a big splash in 1989 and followed it up vehicles sales, and service. My guess it took a few years before Lexus were fully excepted. The Genesis, Equus are great starts. They need to upgrade the interior of the Coupe (@ earlier comment) for that to be truly luxury. Follow up with a next generation Veracuz, continue increase sales, and separate Genesis within the Hyundai brand along with service then Hyundai has a great shot of having a respected luxury brand. Again its going to take a lot of hard work, and PR and more luck.

millwood0

"Again its going to take a lot of hard work, and PR and more luck. "

agreed.

Hyundai has done a good job getting into the market, so far.

to be established here takes a lot more than that and the book is yet to be written on Hyundai's venture in the luxury market.

snakeweasel

what do you guys think? will Hyundai have to do this to stay competitive?"


I would say any car manufacturer can stay competitive if they offer good quality cars that the public wants at a reasonable price. Most people drive non luxury cars.

The next gen Equus and a likely CUV will follow thereafter.

Yesterday at the auto show I sat in the Equus, all I can say is that it was real nice. The car had just about everything. Very roomy rear seats that are fully adjustable. I was completely impressed wit that car. I was told its coming out later this year and starting around $50K

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com

backy

Perhaps we need another discussion topic for you and others who are interested in the question, "How long will it take for Hyundai to become established in the luxury market?"

Hyundai has established a beachhead in the luxury market with the Genesis. They will expand the beachhead, fortify it, and start going inland with the Equus. They have clearly carved out ROOM in the luxury market. As I said, the open question is, how MUCH room is there in the luxury market for Hyundai--which is directly related to your question on when Hyundai will be "established" in the luxury market.

fintail

That's one homely car...one could almost believe it is a new-style Chinese product.

backy

Yes, a new Chinese product like this one perhaps:



No, wait, that's not Chinese! That's the new Infiniti M. Seems Infiniti is mimicking that awful Hyundai styling, eh?

houdini1

Looks really good to me, the epitome of a luxury car. I'll bet it was stunning in person !!

millwood0

"They have clearly carved out ROOM in the luxury market."

the very existence of this discussion and your herculean efforts, in vain, to insist otherwise clearly shows that Hyundai has not "clearly carved out ROOM in the luxury market".

perhaps a separate discussion on "how can I convince myself of anything" is in need for you and you alone?