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what kind of sales are you talking about? sales this micro second? or sales this hour? or sales today? or sales this week?
...
where did you get that kind of numbers? out of thin air?
The US supplier of the suspect part makes parts for Toyotas sold in Europe and China, so those sales will be affected as replacement parts are rolled out and as competitors take advantage of Toyota's woes. Toyota has recalls going in both the EU and China. (BBC).
The same supplier issue has affected Ford sales in China (same BBC link).
Not too topical, but Hyundai stands to gain the most from the Toyota mess in the US. Reuters
YOU made the rather preposterous statement in your previous post that Hyundai ' has already surpassed the J3 in reliability and quality perceptions so I refuted that on n BOTH counts - first the currently superior rankings for both Honda and Toyota in reliability studies and then from the perception standpoint - why Hondas and Toyotas continue to sell more of their cars IN THIS COUNTRY than comparable Korean models - you really want to deny the million or so Camcordimas sold versus the 150000 or so Sonatas sold? This is what blows a hole in your contention that the Korean cars have anywhere near the perceived qualities as the J3 models. Whether they actually do (have the quality) or not, IS NOT THE POINT, it is what the current perceptions of the cars are, not by you and not by me - but of the US autobuyer in general. Hyundai may (or may not) get there in a few years but to make your assertion today has no foundation in fact.
No, I don't '180' on anything simply address BOTH your contentions.
And, BTW, what Hyundai may or may not sell worldwide is of little importance when the conversation needs to be about our perceptions mfgr here.
Hyundai doesn't get a free ride either though:
Anyone experience Sudden Unintended Acceleration in a Santa Fe
Maybe but I think Ford stands to gain the most. Hyundai isn't a full line manufacturer, no trucks no large SUVs, so someone looking for that at Toyota won't go to Hyundai they will go to Ford most likely as they have the good press right now. Maybe they go to GM but Ford I think is number one.
I see Ford gaining most from this and then Honda or Hyundai duking it out for number two with GM right behind them.
The reason I think Honda beats out Hyundai is because lots of Toyota stores will have a Honda counterpart and good salespeople will switch those Toyota buyers to a Honda or maybe a Nissan. Hyundai/Toyota combo stores are less common at least in my area.
Second, when you brought up Honda and Toyota outselling Hyundai, you didn't say anything about "in the USA only."
Third, maybe you could answer my question as to why GM outsells Hyundai: is it because of a general perception that the quality and reliability of GM's vehicles is superior to that of Hyundai? Or is it because GM has greater production capacity and a larger distribution network than Hyundai? (As do Ford and Toyota compared to Hyundai, worldwide.) Actually, this point applies outside the car market, e.g. McDonald's vs. Wendy's. If you want to talk about "higher sales implies higher quality", that is actually as good a refutation as any. I suppose we could get ridiculous on this and say, since the Genesis outsells Bentley in the USA, the Genesis is obviously a superior car, based on its larger sales volume.
Fourth, my statement about Hyundai surpassing the J3 in quality and reliability perceptions was backed by facts, e.g. Hyundai beating all of the J3 in the JD Power IQS, and Hyundai beating everyone in the very relevant category of best midsized premium sedan--aka the Genesis. Also, Hyundai tops one of the J3 in CR's reliability rankings. True, they were still behind Toyota and Honda in those rankings as of early 2009. Out of 34 brands, Honda was 3rd, Toyota 4th, and Hyundai 8th--ahead of Nissan which was 14th. But I did refute your assertion that ALL of the J3 top Hyundai in reliability and quality. You didn't offer any facts to back your statement.
captain2-your arguments appear to someone who arrives here as just being some sort of pick sticking in your craw for who knows what reason regarding Hyundai. This whole abstract "Hyundai just doesn't fit the mold of a valid luxury car manufacturer" is bunk. It's too much of an opinion that is being hyperinflated with helium and Kool-Aid of your own making. Genesis is a luxury vehicle to me.
And it passes the class with good grades. Especially for a first large RWD luxo-sedan try. Eh?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
There are probably plenty of lurkers who agree with him (ditto Backy). Unlurk and be counted.
But this isn't about us or lurkers, but about if or when Hyundai is going to break into the luxury market or whether they already have.
It is interesting to read his comments on how Hyundai has a long ways to go still to break in. Gets the grey matter chugging a bit. Always provokes a nice response from one of the regulars.
And yes, I'm sure there's lurkers agreeing with both sides. I just fail to see how the new Genesis sedan falls short of being a luxury sedan. And one that is passing the test of being classified luxury by new owners and reviewers alike. That's all. Just some more of that old Kia alliance coloring my opinion of this new luxury sedan from Hyundai, I spose. :shades:
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
ok, so we are talking about sales figures this second? still, where did hyundai fan get his/her figures? out of thin air?
if you shorten the time frame enough, anyone can be a global sales leader.
that's why intelligent people compare sales over a long period of time, like month or year.
Oh really, let's take a poll - any posters on this forum outside the North America?
The reason why I 'dismiss' how Hyundai (or anybody) is perceived in the luxury car market outise this country is that it OBVIOUSLY doesn't effect us in ANY WAY. Hyundai may well be the greatest thing ever invented in India but who cares, it makes no difference on our perceptions of the brand, does it.
Volkwagen will shortly be the largest car mfgr in the world incidentally but are certainly a minor player in this country. GM only ranks where it does because of it's truck sales. But the fact that either might sell a lot of vehicles internationally has no effect on both brand's somewhat poor perceptions over here. Hyundai might sell a lot of cars but that does not necessarily mean they are perceived as a quality mfgr (just like VW and GM) especially over here.
But I am confused now. A few posts ago, you asserted that proof that the public perceives Honda and Toyota are superior to Hyundai in quality and reliability is that Honda and Toyota sell more vehicles than Hyundai. (Although that is not true, at least in the case of Honda, and for the short term for Toyota also.) But now you are saying:
Hyundai might sell a lot of cars but that does not necessarily mean they are perceived as a quality mfgr (just like VW and GM) especially over here.
So now you seem to be saying that sales volume has nothing to do with whether a manufacturer is perceived to have vehicles with better quality and reliability. Right?
Which is it? :confuse:
Just read another car magazine's review of the Genesis sedan(was it C&D, I think it was their February edition)and they agree that Hyundai has hit another home run with the RWD Genesis sedan. Luxurious amenities abound and the lack of the badge up front(to ally the brand snobs)and the comfortable ride...and all of the options included in the package that particular car magazine picked up with their Genesis certainly rode home with them as being not only luxurious but very well done as well.
Bingo, Hyundai is there with this major car magazine. Luxuriously appointed and, of course, because it's a Hyundai(insert Kia here too if you like)it not only delivers a lot for the money but it's backed by a generous Long-Haul Warranty, too.
Am I missing something good here about the new Genesis RWD sedan? I don't think so.
Sing to end all songs, to end all songs, sing. Over. Done. Deal. Nothing else to argue. New thread.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
coming. Genesis sales have been poor in the snow belt, so they brought the AWD
out in short order. It's easy to see what Hyundai is trying to do, and I have no doubt
they will keep on listening and improving. And to those who say this gem of a
luxury car can't be a luxury car because of its breeding, I say TAKE A TEST
DRIVE.
It would be terrific if people who live elsewhere jump into the conversation & talk about how Hyundai is doing or could be doing in their markets, but until that happens, we should stick to what we know best.
The North American luxury market is still the world's biggest & most open. All the talk about China makes it easy to forget that average per capita GDP there is about one-tenth of what it is here. And the European luxury market, while sizable, is rather closed & static. I get over there every year or two, & I notice that affluent Europeans drive either (a) one of the premium German brands or (b) a luxury sedan (often called "executive cars" over there) made by a company local to that country. (This applies to those countries, like Italy, France, Sweden or the UK, that have native auto industries.) For example, a French industrialist might drive an S-class or E-class Mercedes, but if he decides to run for public office, he'll swap that for a Citroen C6. (French voters don't want to see their politicians in German cars, even if some of the wealthier voters have BMWs or MBs in their garages.)
The Germans have pretty close to a lock on luxury sales in countries that don't have their own auto industries.
It's just about impossible for any non-Euro brand to crack the European luxury market, but an outsider with a compelling product does have a shot at our market, which makes it the most dynamic & thus the most interesting, IMO.
It's an impressive car - one that I'll carefully consider the next time I go into the market - but I still can't understand why Hyundai failed to offer AWD as an option on it. That's just killed Genesis sales in the NY metro area, where I live. My town is very import-friendly, but the Genesis is nowhere to be seen around here.
I understand that AWD will be available on the next generation Gen, but that's still several years away. For now, Genesis may be a Sun Belt success, but it just isn't a factor in luxury car sales in the Northeast.
Not so. But most of us already knew that, right?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
But I still think that the North American luxury car market will be the main event for the next 5 to 10 years. After that...
really? apparently Hyundai didn't get that memo,
the luxury market is ill defined so it is fuzzier to say if someone has made it to that market.
the luxury market differs from the mass production market in one important aspect: brand image. it will take us some time (years?) to see if Hyundai's "luxury" cars are holding up vs. competition.
more importantly, it will take us a decade or two to see if Hyundai the car market has made it to this segment.
Lexus is a good example, a successful example. Infiniti and Acura are two fair examples of quality OEMs that have not yet quite made it.
LOL, that reminds me of comments made in Hyundai discussion topics ten years ago. Almost exactly the same comment was made then, except not wrt the luxury market. More like, "Hyundai has to prove itself over 5-10 years to see if they are really competitive with the likes of Honda and Toyota." Meanwhile, buyers like me were enjoying owning Hyundais that were very competitive with their Japanese counterparts, but cost a lot less.
Go ahead and wait for 10 years if you want. Lexus didn't take 10 years to "make it" in this segment. Hyundai isn't waiting around, they are moving fast. Buyers who see what Hyundai has to offer in the luxury segment aren't waiting, either.
there are always people who are early adopters. sometimes it worked out and others it didn't.
hopefully you are one of the lucky ones. Hyundai is very promising, so was Chrysler for a period of time and see where they are now.
for me, the risk to take on Hyundai demands a much deeper discount than Hyundai is willing to offer so I will pass.
FWIW, I was not an early adopter of Hyundai. I looked starting in 1988, but didn't take the jump until late 2000. Was really glad I did. (Also glad I didn't go for a Hyundai before they got their quality act together, starting in the late '90s.)
well, you may not think you are but the market certainly does.
I consider the hundreds of thousands of people who bought Excels in the '80s to be the Hyundai early adopters. Buying a 2001 Hyundai was comparable to buying a Corolla in 1983, or a Civic in 1988... hardly an early adopter.
Agreed. 100% win for Hyundai.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
***************
Actually, if MISinformed people would stop trying to debate this issue and cloud people's minds w/ erroneous facts and assumptions, there wouldn't be any need for constant clarification.
Again, the Genesis is a luxury E segment sedan (which is auto reviewers have compared it against the Lexus GS, Infiniti M, BMW 5 Series, Lincolm MKS, etc. in their reviews), it just isn't sold under a luxury marque here in the US (much the same way the VW Phaeton, a $70-100k F segment sedan, was).
Think about this.
Until a few years ago, the Lexus LS, GS and IS were sold as TOYOTAS in the Japanese market.
How asinine is it to think that someone driving an LS in the States is driving a luxury sedan, but that a person driving a Toyota Celsior (aka LS) is not?
Furthermore, Toyota in Japan sells luxury vehicles not offered here in the US such as the Crown, Majesta and Century.
Toyota regards the Majesta to be a competitor to the S Class and actually considered it to be a little "higher up" than the Celsior/LS since the Majesta was marketed more as the executive sedan and the Celsior more as the sports sedan (as funny as that may seem).
But the flagship of the Toyota fleet is the Century of which a version the royal family of Japan rides (yes - the RF of Japan rides in a Toyota and not a Lexus).
Basically, Toyota is seen as a full line manufacturer/brand in Japan, just as Hyundai is w/ the Genesis and Equus in Korea.
The same holds for Mercedes in Germany (where it isn't quite limited to the luxury image perpetuated by marketing as in the States) where E Class sedans w/ cloth or pleather seats and rather anemic powerplants roam the streets as cabs and where econobox A and B Class Mercedes can be found.
And let's not forget, the USDM Acura TSX is essentially the same as the EDM/JDM Accord.
And really, just b/c a car/model can be loaded w/ options such as leather, gadgets, etc. (such as the Camry XLE and Avalon) - it doesn't make them a luxury vehicle.
There's much more to a luxury vehicle than that (if that's the case, a fully loaded Sonata and Azera would also be "luxury" vehicles.
For those who have a hard time understanding, let me break it down simply...
Sonata/Camry - mid-sized mainstream sedan
Azera/Avalon - full-sized near luxury sedan
Genesis/GS - mid-sized luxury sedan
Equus/LS - full-sized luxury sedan
Hyundai doesn't currently have a compact/entry level luxury sedan, but are reportedly in the development of one.
It would really help if people had more knowledge of the automotive industry before opining on things they don't quite understand, otherwise, there's the danger of others being misled.
It's kind of sad to realize how materialistic some Americans are that in order to have a luxury car you need a "luxury" nameplate to go with it.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/videos/
I think the video provides an answer for people who don't think a car that lists for as little as the low $30s can be a luxury car, simply because it is priced too low and doesn't have the right badge on the trunk lid.
Darn, I want that eyeroll emoticon! :shades:
Not bad ads themselves, though. I'll take it over any Lexus ad.
What luxury would it offer than a loaded Camcord/Legacy/Altima etc wouldn't? Other than the warranty?
Naaaah... it's a pocket limousine like the loaded Camrys and Accords. It's not even RWD.
If it's such a "simple progression of technology", why don't all mid-sized sedans offer these features?
I think the Hyundai ad points out, in a lighthearted way, that Hyundai offers more luxury to more people than ever before. That is a concept, and strategy, that some folks in this discussion seem to have trouble understanding.
I think "luxury" with 4cyl and FWD is going to be a hard point to make. H is offering more of some features anyway, yes.
Good point though about Hyundai leading the way in pushing technology down to mainstream cars.
SOUTH Korean press release please!!!!!!! LOL
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You read like a North Korean press release...absolute awe and wonderment at the swoopy H.