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Comments
If symbols weren't important, newcomers wouldn't have their own symbols...
Do take a drive in a 2010! It's free, and I promise you won't get cooties.
I'm not talking so much about symbols as symbol worship. Even when the car beneath the symbol has long since become average, the symbol retains undeserved value.
I don't think the average salesman would appreciate how I'd like to drive the car :P
I think "average" is subjective, as is symbol worship. People like different things for different reasons.
OK BUT then you ought to be to accept the reverse as also being true-
- even when the car beneath the symbol has long since become exemplary, the symbol retains an undeserved reputation -
A continuing problem for Hyundai IMO, particularily as it attempts to gain acceptance into the ranks of luxury car mfgrs.
If you are a serious buyer, I don't think they'll mind you taking the car for a thorough test drive. If you're "just looking", maybe not.
When I drove my current car the salesman didn't mind if I flogged it around a little (hard turns, full throttle acceleration, etc) , and I was even able to take it out on my own...but I think I got lucky there. Although pulling up in a pristine MB does seem to do wonders for getting drives. I wouldn't be the average Accent test driver taking it on a 30mph run through the suburbs.
Maybe H needs to take some of its Genesis-selling dealers through an e-commerce and PR course
Just for grins, here's a nice tour of the 2011 Kia Sorento's suspension. Parts is parts.
2011 Kia Sorento: Suspension Walkaround (Straightline)
Why am I suddenly hungry for chicken? :surprise:
(aka a "young" chicken - it's all about the badge, right? :shades: ).
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
OK, no midget chicken jokes. That'll get you tossed.
Top Ten Cars of the Decade Countdown: #5 Hyundai Genesis
http://pricinginsider.carsdirect.com/2009/12/29/top-ten-cars-of-the-decade-count- - down-5-hyundai-genesis/
Top Ten Cars to Look Forward to in 2010: #3 Hyundai Sonata
http://pricinginsider.carsdirect.com/2010/01/19/top-ten-cars-to-look-forward-to-- - in-2010-2011-hyundai-sonata/
Best New Cars 2010 (Genesis Coupe & Kia Forte)
http://cars.about.com/od/whatscomingin2010/tp/bestnewcarsof2010.htm
One person thought that the Equus didn't have any personality and it looked like Hyundai picked different parts of other luxury autos.
Another thought that they were going all wrong on how they were going to market the Equus under the Hyundai name and reminded on VW failed experience with luxury.
Yes, we've had that read back to us about dozen times.
But I agree the Equus needs a slight facelift for the American market. It wouldn't be a good thing for Genesis to look more upscale than Equus, which it does handily at the moment.
Even some luxury products can be marketed as being just good enough. For instance the Hyundai Genesis, a luxury sedan, has been directly compared to Lexus, but is much less expensive.
"If Hyundai can convince you the Genesis, is substantially the same as Lexus with essentially the same features, why pay thousands more for the Lexus? Hyundai is not claiming to be a prestige brand, but they're claiming the Genesis is just as good"
Dr. Robert P. Leone
Marketing Expert
MJ Neeley School of Business
Texas Christian University
A big IF - think that is a really really hard sell - a Hyundai branded product vs a Lexus branded one???
Even if you can bite into the 'substantially the same' you still have the whole perception issue. Because Lexus is undeniably a 'prestige' brand and Hyundai is not, they cannot be perceived as the same. One mfgr makes luxury cars, the other doesn't. It's kind like the guy that ran out an spent a lot of money on a Buick Lucerne, and his neighbor that spent more on an ostensibly identical DTS, one owns a luxury car and the other doesn't.
Now, whether or not the Lexus (or that Cadillac) is 'worth' the extra money or not is a different conversation.
One mfgr makes luxury cars, the other doesn't.
Incorrect. Both Toyota and Hyundai make luxury cars. The difference is, Toyota has a separate brand, Lexus, to market some of their luxury cars in some countries. Hyundai doesn't have a separate brand for its luxury cars. But that does not change the fact that both automakers make luxury cars.
So if someone goes out and spends $40k on a Genesis 4.6, and his neighbor goes out and spends $55k on a Lexus GS 460, they both own a luxury car. The main difference is, the GS buyer spent about $15k on the Lexus badge.
yes the difference IS that Toyota does have a separate brand for its luxury cars and a good example why Hyundai won't have a luxury car without doing the same.
You seem to be stuck on a 'luxury car' being no more than some summation of gadgets, bling and specs. If that was truly the case than ANYBODY could make one - an assertion that to me is preposterous......
Let's see - the G8 is supposed to reappear as a Caprice in the near future - I just can't wait to run out and buy my well optioned LT Caprice, and run circles around all those Gen 4.6s out there. And, I'll bet that it comes in at less money too. A legendary luxury brand that 'Chevrolet' just like that other legendary luxury badge you call Hyundai.
BTW, unfortunately a badge premium would also be something that true 'lux' cars have in common.
But try to tell Toyota that this is not a luxury car. Note, no "luxury" badge on it.
http://www.batfa.com/new_car_toyota_crown_majesta.htm
And YOU talk about someone being "stuck" on something? That is the best laugh I've had in a long time.
get real
Captain2, where in this discussion/thread title does it say this discussion only encompasses the US market? :confuse:
The point? Markets are not static. They change over time. Buyer preferences change. What worked in the late '80s for the J3 for introducing luxury cars into the US market might not be the only way or best way to do it today. Brand perception might not be what it was in 1990, or 2000, or even 2005. (Refer to recently-posted articles re buyer attitudes towards brands changing.)
And yes, there is a world beyond the US. And people buy luxury cars out there.
and you know - you might be absolutely right, time will tell - sooner or later we'll know if the Gen sedan is the next LS or the next Phaeton. We surely don't know yet, do we? The current Gen sedan is priced as it is really competes in the 'upscale sedan' segment, the real test will more likely be in the Equus - imagine a Hyundai with a $50k pricetag! As it sits right now, I'll put my money on the consistency (and the brand consciousness) that the American consumer has shown us for 50 or even 100 years - and tell you also that, as a Hyundai, there is no room in the 'luxury' market for a Hyundai branded product.
I have no problem with this - with one caveat - there is plenty of room in the 'luxury' market for any product that doesn't happened to be labelled as a Hyundai and sold at Hyundai dealers, IMO. Not a cut at Hyundai or FTM the Genesis mind you - only a comment on how ridiculously brand consciousthe American autobuyer has shown to be.
That is the most reasonable and logical thing you have ever said in this discussion. Yes, the truth is, it is too early to tell if Hyundai's approach to the luxury market will succeed long-term. But the fact that you are at least open to the possibility that it MIGHT succeed shows you have an open mind. I had my doubts about that.
the Phaeton, as a 'relabelled' A8 was one helluva a car and certainly priced as such. A 'bad' label for sure as VW has taken its hits lately. Sales volume for any vehicle as those kind of prices ($70k) should obviously be much lower than those priced in the $30k-$40k higher volume upscale sedan market.
If indeed Hyundai is intent on a $50k Equus (or whatever they choose to call it) then I would suggest sales would naturally fall - they are playing to a much smaller audience.
There certainly was some 'audacity' attached to the LS - and also its share of naysayers at that time. As good as the LS was (and as good as it continues to be), I don't think it would have made nearly the impact it did had Toyota chosen to label it as such and further sell it at 'common' Toyota dealerships. They correctly understood the American penchant for soft boulevard cruisers as well as understanding the need for brand differentiation. MB and BMW I think were caught with their drawers down, and to this day I don't believe that they have really matched the service, reliability, and even mystique levels that Lexus established.
Think of what Toyota (and Honda) had both done in the middle late 80s, both living down crappola products foisted on us in the 60s and even 70s, but by the time they established their 'luxury' brands both their reputations were sterling. Hyundai IIMO is not at thast point - yet. It shouldn't take the 15-20 years that it took Toyota and Honda - but probably something more than the 5 years (or whatever) it's been.
Indeed, their current product line would seem to indicate tat they are well on their way.
I do agree had the LS simply been sold as a fancy Toyota with no different badging or sales experience, the impact wouldn't have been the same.
Lexus has virtually no "mystique" outside of this continent (and virtually no mystique for actual enthusiasts anywhere), and is a very minor player in the market that developed this segment, Europe. I suspect the S and 7 outsell the LS on the continent by 50:1, maybe more. The swoopy L does a lot of things right, but not everything.
And I believe Hyundai learned from Toyota and Honda there are no substitutes for quality and reliability. Hyundai is also smart enough to fast track Toyota and Honda's long, arduous journey, dispensing with the middle 20 years. They have already surpassed Nissan and Honda in sales, so they are doing something right.
Give people a little credit. Most of us are smart enough to know Hyundai products have changed, and new models don't share any DNA with recent models. Most people aren't followers, and they respect ambitious young leaders.
perhaps the cynic in me, or as history tends to support - I would tell you that - most people ARE followers and they also tend to buy what everybody else buys and/or what they think their neighbors would 'approve' of. The reason , perhaps that cars, in this case, like Camcordimas outsell things like Sonatas by such a large margin. Think about it - if everybody else KNEW -like you seem to- that Hyundai had improved to such an extent - then why are they plopping down so much money on something else? IMO the problem is not really in the cars, as much as it is the baggage that Hyundai products still carry.
I know you are speaking for yourself, but you would be surprised at how many people think for themselves. I would say "people are cautious" rather than impune them as being mindless followers.
It's still early. It took Toyota 40 years to get where they are. How about giving Hyundai another 4-5 years to get their new line established? It will take about that long to shake the outmoded beliefs and let the cars stand on their true merits.
As it relates to this topic - I think that Hyundai would have to have at least the quality and reliability perceptions that the J3 had back in the 90s (and even still today) BEFORE they could reasonably expect any acceptance into the the fellowship of luxury manufacturers. Whether they can expect that kind of change in that short of time period certainly remains to be seen. But we are talking about today - and not necessarily 4 or 5 years from now.
Unlike our friend backy that believes apparently that any really well optioned automobile can be a luxury car, I think that there is substantially more to it than that. It does have a lot to do with brand perceptions and badge prestige - both areas that I believe that Hyundai lacks any positive impact in TODAY - despite a reasonably good first effort at it - the Gen Sedan.
But I also believe that that whole separate dealer, new badge issue is the only way that Hyundai can attack the whole 'prestige' thing - a failing of the American autobuyer perhaps - but a very real one.
get real
Well Well we are center of the world again
Actually for Hyundai's or any other maker How it is percieved in China and India is MORE important thne how it is percieved in good ole USA. Thats where the growth is.
That is why Buick still exists...very desirable in China a market expexted to be biggest auto market in 5 year time frame
Hyundai us extremely well regarded/respected & positioned well in South Asia. I am not sure of China
Tell you what... you don't put words on my fingers, and I won't put words on your fingers, OK? I find it difficult to believe that after all this time you still don't understand my position.
I think that Hyundai would have to have at least the quality and reliability perceptions that the J3 had back in the 90s (and even still today) BEFORE they could reasonably expect any acceptance into the the fellowship of luxury manufacturers.
Let's assume for discussion that is true. I assert that Hyundai already has the quality and reliability perception of the J3 today--especially wrt Toyota... no, probably BETTER than Toyota at this moment in time. IMO the quality and reliability perception of the J3 has slipped since the '90s. That is backed up by statements from e.g. CR that actual quality has slipped. Also Hyundai has compared very well against the J3 in recent quality and reliability studies, e.g. the latest JD Power IQS in which Hyundai was higher ranked than Toyota, Honda, or Nissan (actually higher than everyone but Lexus, Porsche, and Cadillac--all luxury marques. And since the IQS is basically an opinion survey of car owners, that substantiates the assertion that Hyundai is already on a par or better than the J3, and even luxury brands, in perception of quality. On reliability, Hyundai ranks ahead of Nissan and just below Honda and Toyota, as of early 2009 (April Auto Issue). So they are doing well against the J3 on that score also. And according to another JD Power survey from 2009, the APEAL study, the Genesis sedan took top honors in the midsized premium car segment:
Easily the largest defeat of the survey was left to the midsize premium car segment where the new Hyundai Genesis took top honors. Right behind were the Jaguar XF and BMW 5-series. ... Clearly, this shows that Hyundai has what it takes to play with the big boys. In the 2010 survey, will we see the upcoming Equus unseat the S-class?
http://www.autospies.com/news/JD-Power-APEAL-Study-Shows-Tides-Are-Changing-Hyun- - - dai-Genesis-VW-CC-Take-Top-Spots-46037/
All this without a separate badge for Hyundai's luxury cars, without separate dealers. The 89,000 people surveyed by JD Power had no problem perceiving the Hyundai Genesis as being superior to the likes of the BMW 5-series, in fact tops in its class.
and if this is the case then Hyundai would obviously have an easier time gaining acceptance as a luxury brand than it does over here. And certainly, there is more potential volume in the 2 most populous countries in the world than here - but that is all hardly the point.
Uh... why isn't it the point, or a big part of it? Today's "market" is a world-wide one. And the USA isn't even the biggest part of that market.
you may 'assert' what you wish - but show me anything factual that supports this.
I can at least look at CRs reliability ratings and mfgr ratings that do indeed show Hyundai improving, but still lagging behind Honda and Toyota. As far as perceptions I can point to overall sales figures and the fact that J3 brands still outsell correspondent Hyundai products despite being more expensive. If this doesn't point to a perception issue, what else does??? :confuse:
As far as putting words 'on your fingers' I'm not - I'll look up the post if I have to - but you are the one that listed several qualifications of what you thought made a 'luxury' car - things like ", standard leather, RWD, fancy audio systems, high HP V8s etc. If I accept that (which I don't) than anybody can do that - true???
PS I have no problem with silly JDP telling me that the Gen Sedan is the 'most appealing' premium sedan. I personally happen to agree It is definitely NOT the most appealing luxury sedan, however - that honor would go to something on a level that the Gen Sedan isn't perhaps the LS , a S, or a 7 series. Heck, not even JDP (or CR FTM) can call it a luxury car - maybe because it isn't
GM leads Hyundai in sales. Does that mean people perceive that GM vehicles have better quality and reliability than Hyundai vehicles? Or could it mean GM has greater production capacity and a larger distribution network than Hyundai?
You misstated my position on what a luxury car is. It is not, as you said, any well optioned car. I do define a luxury car based on the attributes of the car, not of the little plastic or metal badge on the trunk lid. You look at things external to the car, such as the brand name and how fancy the dealerships are that sell the cars. Two much different views.
Funny though that JD Power is "silly" now. They weren't so silly a few days ago when you used one of their surveys to support your opinion. It appears JD Power is silly only when someone else cites them.