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Comments
I can see them using an alphanumeric convention as all other high end makers...but the same numeric (460) designation? That's getting a little close.
H cars have evolved stunningly in the past 20 years...but I think "most respected" is too subjective to define...I couldn't even define it now...every brand has a lot of people who simply don't like it.
I have actually owned mine since around that time. Yes, it does get some attention. I have had people stare, come up to me in parking lots and once a fellow was yelling at me out his window asking me if I liked it.
The point I was trying to make is that the perception of Hyundai still isn't that great. Those who do not follow the car industry think of them as a bottom feeder. I have personally witnessed this myself on more than one occasion. Those of us that do, appreciate the fact that for a little less money we get one heck of a car.
The 2011 Sonata will be in showrooms in a month and from the pictures that is going to be another game changer for Hyundai.
Very nice looking ride... however, why no V6? The 3.8 would have a been a nice sleeper in this car. Hopefully they are working on a V6, all the other midsizers have it available.
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Some of America is brand conscious. I do see a few women with the Coach purses. But not most of them. Hyundai is not going to sell cars to people who have no problem spending the dough just to get a certain badge. But there's lots of other buyers.
BTW... how do you know many of those women with the Coach purses didn't buy them used on eBay for almost nothing?
That proves my point even more.... The name is so important they must buy knock-offs (or used) to feel special. Otherwise why not the other $30.00 bag from Target instead of the Ebay bag?
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I could see that, however, tell someone coming out of V6 Camry with 268HP that a 198 HP 4 banger is all thats available.... no sale. Big mistake IMO.
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Now, someone who would pay full price for one of those fancy bags... they are probably not going to buy a Hyundai. Yet.
That's a question only the woman who is using it could answer
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yeah, only a minor percentage of mid sizers spend the extra money for the V6s unless, of course the 4 banger is so bad (or anemic) that these larger mid size cars actually NEED the V6. For years Fusions were sold with V6s because of that, and yes, for years the Sonata was the same with that semi- crappola 2.7, largely because you could buy both for about the same price as 4 banger Camcordimas.
I didn't find the 3.3 in a recent Sonata I drove though to be bad at all, however - though not nearly as quick or smooth as the Nissan VQ and Toyota 3.5s I have owned.
Maybe the motivation for no V6 on the Sonata is to wrest line FE bragging rights from Honda. They might even stand a chance of doing it too as long as they don't venture into the land of PUs. I do agree though that not having that 250+ HP in a midsize will ultimately cost Hyundai some sales though - a mistake IMO in perhaps the largest market segment (after PUs) that there is. The other thing I'm seeing, that doesn't portend of great things to come, is the preponderance of Sonatas at the airports - Hyundai seemingly wants to fill that zero profit nitche long dominated by the D3. Only serve to cheapen the brand even further, IMO
A V6 done right can easily rival 4 banger mpg and still get you that smooth responsiveness that I think we all prefer. I get 25-26 mpg overall (60-70% hwy) in my larger Avalon and it will outrun 95% of what else is out there on the road - something I think you know all about.
What do you think the new Azera is for?
Hyundai sold a lot of 2010 Sonatas to fleets. It was a very short model year run, with the 2011 already in production, and the last year of the old design. So why not sell as many as they can, as fast as they can, and clear the lots for the all-new 2011s? The alternative is to let them languish on lots for months and sell them at huge discounts while buyers snap up the much improved 2011s.
A V6 done right can easily rival 4 banger mpg ...
Let me know when you see a V6 that gets 35 EPA highway like the 200 hp Theta II DI does.
I never saw those #s. 20.5-21.5 with my driving (gotta love Jersey). My Genesis is about 1 MPG lower overall than the Avalon.
I do agree though that not having that 250+ HP in a midsize will ultimately cost Hyundai some sales though
Possibly as others have said not having a Sonata V6 will help to spark Azera sales. IMO just can the Azera, have a Sonata V6 and have one less model to produce and market. Just a thought...
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That will be remedied late this year with a 2.0 liter direct injection turbo 4 putting out HP numbers in that range. And a hybrid version Sonata is also due late this year! You are right that becoming the fuel efficiency leader is their goal and according to EPA figures, they have already done it! :P
well if that is what it is for, it was a miserable failure and likely will continue to be knocking heads with the base Gen Sedan. Should have been competition for the higher volume Avalons and Maxs etc. and possibly even serve as a rebadge for a upscaled Genesis branded model ( kind of like the ES) . In any case the midsize sedan market is a high volume one well millions of copies are sold, the number of Azeras ever sold is miniscule in those terms.
I do believe, however, that the underestimated Azera should have been the flagship of the Hyundai line - like the Av is with Toyota - and anything past that should be branded as 'Genesis'.
once upon a time, long long ago (early 90s) there was a small American company called Ford, that made a world class car relative to its competition. It was called a Taurus. Then, Ford in its infinite wisdom decided to do exactly what you see no problem with. The Taurus would became THE rental queen. Resale values as well as Ford's reputation plummeted. Before the midsize Taurus was eventually put out of its misery, Ford was teetering on bankruptcy and anybody that ever paid even close to invoice for one was promptly screwed when it came time to trade it in.
On the other side of the coin you have companies like Honda that specifically discourage ANY sales to the rental companies - and the company's reputation and resale values are almost legendary. There is a reason why Hondas, for example, typically lead cost-to-own studies, and it isn't because they are cheap!
nothing new or extraordinary about this at all, try the Mazdaspeed 6 at 270 hp, or those Subaru/Mitsu/GM Ecotec turbos that can get up to 300. Hyundai would be about the last on the block to have one. Hot rodded 4 bangers have been around for years and years and in many respects turbocharging a cheap solution to developing a well designed and engineered engine otherwise.
Turbocharging a double edged sword, if there ever was one. What do think is a better drive - a torquey (and relatively lazy V6) or a mechanically more complicated 4 with drivability issues?
Last few times I have been at the airport rental lots, I've seen more Fusions, Malibus, even Camrys than Sonatas. (My last rental was a Malibu, thought I'd try it out.) Honda does have a unique strategy, but what it means is they end up discounting their cars with special incentives, since they sell few to fleets and they don't have advertised rebates. Also, you may have noticed Honda's sales volumes last year... compared to Hyundai's? Hyundai is out to grab market share, which they are doing in spades.
I believe Backy has owned a SAAB Turbo as well, so perhaps he may wish to add his comments.
That's the truth, and as a car buyer, that's all you need to know.
While Hyundai is in the midst of this all out mission, they won't let things like high prices, poor quality, customer dissatisfaction, and short warranty get in the way of their quest. This will result in owners getting unprecedented quality and luxury for the dollar. It's already happening, and will even ratchet up more.
There will be a few that cling on to the "old luxury" badges, but they will be swept away by Hyundai and those who choose to compete with Hyundai.
And then there's other markets. Lexus still can't crack Europe...the H has much more work cut out for it there in an upmarket move than it does in NA. The group still offers things like a nearly 40K Euro Kia 'Opirus' that probably sells in the single digits.
30+ years ago - a 99, don't recall it being turboed but do remember it being a typically peaky 4 banger that needed to be driven at higher rpms to get anything out of it. Kind of like the Honda S2000 - also not turboed - quite tame at 'normal' engine speeds but a beast once you hit 6 grand or so.
My direct experience with turbos goes back to a more recent Subaru I owned, turbo lag was quite annoying, and it blew head gaskets every 15-20k or so. The last time that happened the engine overheated and I finally had to throw the car away.
Furthermore, while the power was good (if I could keep the engine 'on') the FE was relatively BAD. Also have my doubts about the strains, pressures and additional mechanical complications created in any kind of artificially aspirated engines as it would relate to long term reliabilities/durabilities. My experiences (Including multiple turbo failures on Cummings diesels) only seem to reinforce this attitude.
While I fully understand the attraction of all that HP, know that someone like Saab has been doing it as long (or longer) than someone like Subaru - I'll still stay away from artifically aspirated engines especially when these new smaller displacement V6s, and even 4s can produce what they can with some of the good designs currently available.
Otherwise I'll continue to believe that turbo (or supercharging) is nothing more than a quick way to get more HP out of what are inefficient ( and probably poorly designed) engines. Not all the time, but I can think of a number of examples.
That's just it, Hyundai (or anybody else) that messes with 'selling' things to Hertz or whoever is NOT 'selling' anything. They are winning bids - and 'selling' only price . That approach (as well as the UAW) had a lot to do with not only the demise of the D3 but also effectively screwed anybody that ever tried to trade in one of their products.
If that is a 'strategy' in your mind, that's fine - but it also one that hurts both the mfgrs. involved as well as those who have spent their hard earned $ contest to see who wants to lose as much money as possible. If the Sonata, Elantra (or whatever) become the new 'standard' Hertz' rental, that would be one more reason NOT to buy one!!!!!!
I'd be interested, if anybody knows - what percentage of Hyundai's current volume is to the fleet accounts. It would seem entirely conceivable if that number has grown that Hyundai's vaunted 'sales' increases are really somewhat fictional :confuse:
I will admit I am skeptical...but I am a skeptic for most claims from most automakers. I don't see the industry being changed other than having a new competitor rise to competence and in some cases excellence. But in terms of aesthetics or technology...no change yet. I don't know what has changed in the industry other than a modern case of "someone new to compete with" syndrome, with to H's credit will make things better for most consumers.
The point that I was trying to make and as it would apply to Hyundai as a 'luxury' brand has more to do with rental sales and how it would effect the commonality of the brand and resale values. Excluding Lincoln (probably not a lux brand anymore) and Cadillac (still a lux brand but with traditionally poor resale values), true luxury cars (the German and J3) seem to hold their value well.
The Gen Sedan only been around about a year, so I guess we really don't know how it will fare resale wise - but the whole idea that Hyundai may be dumping any of their products into the rental lots would not do the Genesis any good in any respect.
When the industry starts to mimic Hyundai in such business decisions or in automotive areas, then I would be able to say H is changing the industry.
I think you must mean Saab, not Subaru...right? Subie engines are all flat 4's and 6's, and currently, none are equipped with DI.
Actually what I was talking about was turbocharged 4 bangers that are rated in excess of 250 hp, direct injected or not. Direct injection, while certainly newer tech than simpler throttle body type fuel injection is not new or unique either. Don't believe DI has nearly the impact on HP ratings that a turbocharger (or two) does, in any case.
That said, Cadillac, historically, has always been the technological leader amongst the D3 and it is nice to see an American made product reassume some of its former luster. They have turned it around to the point that they do offer some genuinely competent vehicles.
when was your "once"? pre-historical days?
or you are from a different planet?
You might have more basis had you praised for Cadillac on anything other than resale value. Cadillac has always sucked big time on resale value, on this planet.
Still, if Hyundai perseveres, it might change the auto industry by introducing a car radio with push-button tuning or side windows that you can crank up & down. And if the company really wants to get freaky futuristic, it could introduce a car with interior lights that go on when you open a door - just like a refrigerator!
Uh... they are selling cars, which otherwise would be sitting on dealer lots while all eyes are on the shiny new 2011 Sonatas. In case you haven't noticed, price is one of the biggest if not the biggest (these days) factor for a new-car purchase--except for you and all those ultra-rich people you know who actually prefer to spend more of their money on a car, rather than less. Anyway, with some automakers cutting back on fleet sales, someone has to provide cars to them. If it were up to you, all Hertz customers would be renting mopeds and bicycles. :P
Selling a bunch of 2010 Sonatas to fleets is not a "strategy". Strategies are long-term in nature. This was an example of a tactic.
As for the Genesis fitting into the "premium rental" category hence we should not see many of them in fleets... that is a very interesting statement. First, there are NO Genesis sedans in fleets. Second, I see now you are putting the Genesis sedan into the "premium" category, whereas before you tended to lump the Genesis in with the likes of the Avalon and Maxima... cars that are quite popular in fleets.
Which brings up another observation... Toyotas are easy to find in fleets. Tons of Corollas, Camrys, Yarii, SUVs, even Avalons. Yet that doesn't seem to hurt their resale value, does it? So your contention that Hyundai selling its cars to fleets is a reason not to buy one seems pretty weak.
I wasn't talking about Toyota. I was talking about the few remaining doubters. I don't have to convince Toyota. They're already believers.
Never underestimate a driven and determined competitor. Hyundai's goal is to eventually go head to head with Toyota, and they won't be stopped. They are walking the walk, and making the right moves. I will never again ignore determined Korean companies (Samsung for example) that have decided to knock off the best.
I remember the moon landing doubters. I don't go back quite far enough to remember the others, but I hear there are still a few of them around. :P
I think Hyundai is on a mission similar to the aforementioned mission given the USA in the 1960's. Failure is not an option, nothing is off the table in achieving the mission. I hope Detroit is paying attention.
I think building complex luxobarges and building TVs is a tough comparison.
I was in small town in rural Iowa just after Thanksgiving for a week and all I saw was GM, FORD and CHRYSLER products once in a while I saw a foreign vehicle. I felt like I was transported back into the 70's when the D3 was it. It was rather sureal and all I seem to see were the Buick Enclaves for SUV's A saw very very few Toyotas, Hondas and never saw one Hyundai. The logical reason for that is the nearest dealership for any other than the D3 were in the larger cities 60 miles away.
Lexus=Toyota.
Toyota is #1, and that's who Hyundai obviously wants to knock off. They're not
going to be able to achieve their goal with smoke and mirrors. They'll have to deliver
some great cars. Even if Hyundai doesn't quickly achieve their goal, consumers will
benefit from the fierce competition.
It's not advisable to underestimate the Koreans. What they're building doesn't matter. Their determination and the end result is what matters.
"consumers will benefit from the fierce competition. "
I said the same thing just several posts ago :P
Product and the intangibles connected to it matters every bit as much as determination. Ask the average non-North American Lexus exec. Try and try as hard as they can to market their nice LS cars, but an overwhelming majority of buyers still go German.
I base my comments on the fact that slightly more people are rational than irrational. Many people have a strong herding instinct, which is a 2-edged sword. At the first sign of greener grass, they're off in a different direction. When Hyundai reaches a certain critical mass of acceptance, the stampede will begin in earnest.
As you are quite aware, it's Econ 101, it called vertical integration, and its been around ever since Henry Ford - and its also applies to a lot more industries than simply automobiles. And Toye would want us to believe, that opening a plant to make steel is 'changing' the automobile industry?? Think he might be reading too many press releases.?
Gimmee a break, Hyundai is and has been doing nothing more than what has already been done by others.
While there is no doubt that Hyundai is doing many good things lately, I'll challenge any of our resident Hyundai proponents to point to anything that is truly innovative or industry leading - other than those things they have had to do to sell their products......