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2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
(1) Your argument concludes that p is objectively true.
(2) P is subjective.
Therefore:
(3) Your argument fails.
yes it is - as pretty much all perceptions are!
Agreed?
Kind of like tjc78's sales rep that doesn't seem to understand that a Hyundai product could possibly cost $35 or $40 k and further thinks that his Genesis in the parking lot is a downgrade from his previous Avalon. Never mind how it is perceived vs. those cars that are truly luxury.
There are a whole bunch more people IMO, uninformed as they may be, that think like that sales rep - as opposed to those that don't. All points out why there can never be a place for a Hyundai branded product in the luxury market - pretty much regardless of how good and/or how nice the Gen Sedan, in this case, may become.
Never??
The automotive scene changes fairly rapidly, these days. Look what's happening to Toyota, right now.
Thanks to Al Gore, and the internet he invented, word gets out mighty fast!
Don't believe it is possible to sell and function in both ends of the market at the same time. Americans are brand and status conscious to a fault - any manufacturer that can compete succesfully in the lower extremes of the market will never be able to compete in the upper 'luxury' ones. This applies to a whole lot more folks than just the Koreans.
But maybe Hyundai will be the first and the Genesis may be accepted as 'luxury' despite the brand name but I"ll believe it when I see it! Or maybe Hyundai will be forced to separate the Genesis brand name (and the Genesis dealer) just like the J3 had to do 20 years ago.
think there will always be economic 'haves' and 'have-nots' and human nature would dictate that those that 'have' don't mind showing it off. Hence, a depression proof market for the true luxury car- at some level.
Don't know that a true lux buyer, the guy that wants what is perceived as the best , the guy who wants to impress his neighbor/coworker, and doesn't pay too much attention to what anything costs, will ever go away or FTM be the type of customer that Hyundai would attract. That kind of thing - reserved for the shoppers in those other dealerships.
Having worked at both Ferrari and MBZ, let me be the first to say how thankful I am that this type of person might NOT buy a Genesis.....
Agreed, but most top-tier luxury brands would have trouble surviving if status-seeking badge chasers lost interest in them. Like them or not, these folks are the backbone of the luxury market. When they lose interest in a brand, it flounders.
Cadillac is a good example. I'm old enough to remember when you drove a Caddy if you wanted people to think that you were successful - even if you weren't. When the posers moved on to the German brands in the late 70s & 80s, Cadillac's standing as a prestige automobile was badly damaged & GM's bottom line suffered.
Note I did not include brands such as MB, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, and BMW in the above list? Why? Because they cannot by definition be "luxury" brands, as they offer cars that are not "luxury" cars. They do offer some pretty luxurious cars, yes. But not all of their models are luxury cars. Hence they cannot be considered a luxury brand, IMO.
There are people who when they buy a car, think first and foremost about the CAR they are buying, not the brand. If the car meets their needs, they will buy it, even if it doesn't come from a "luxury" brand nor at a "luxury" price. Does that make their cars any less a "luxury" car? I don't think it does.
Luxury brand vs. luxury car. Hyundai is not a luxury brand. But the Genesis sedan is a luxury car. Some people buy brands, some buy cars.
this is where we would disagree - a true 'luxury' car goes well beyond doodads and fancy leather and/or wood trim. A 'luxury' car must also be a car that one dreams of owning (read pride/ presitige) , is difficult to attain (read price), is sold at brand specific butt kissing dealers, and generally recognized by others as such (read badge). Otherwise a properly optioned G Marquis, a Lucerne , a Maxima SL, and/or an Avalon XLS would all be 'luxury' cars. Decidedly non-luxury cars just like the Gen Sedan. This would apply to a myriad of other upscale sedans as well, priced generally in the 30s, and also quite luxurious in their own right. True luxury cars do not come from mfgrs. with non-luxury badges.
As I said in an earlier post, Hyundai could go buy up a bunch of LS460s, and as soon as they put a Hyundai label on it, and further sell it at a Hyundai dealer, they would no longer have a 'luxury' car . Such is the brand consciousness of the American autobuyer.
Why I am guessing the Equus, if it does come in at $50k+ will ultimately meet with a poor reception - even if it blows something like the LS into the weeds. THAT will be an interesting test, though, -to see if the autobuyer can accept a Hyundai that costs that kind of money OR if Hyundai is finally forced to establish some dedicated Genesis 'luxury' dealers. If they are going to succeed in the truly luxury market, my bet is on the latter.
There was a time that exactly the same could be said for Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. Time marches on, and those who do not understand this, get left behind.
Products, and their luxury upstarts, follow the cost of labor. After the Japanese, and yes, the South Koreans, next in line will be the Chinese, and the Indians to follow.
Times change, and product evolution follows...
I can't wait to see if the Indians destroy Jag, and how the Chinese will try to play in this market.
Correction sir: Americans used to be brand and status conscious to a fault.
It's the new normal, remember?
Actually, none of these are luxury cars, since a luxury car must meet the following critieria:
1. In V6 trim, must make over 280 hp.
2. In V8 trim, must make over 350 hp.
3. Must be available with at least 8 cylinders.
4. Must be RWD.
5. Must offer a high-zoot audio system.
6. Must have leather seating standard.
So you see, the Genesis sedan qualifies as a luxury car, but none of the cars you listed qualify.
But that is exactly my point, what is -or is not- a 'luxury car' goes well beyond silly spec sheets, and into things that are perhaps a little more difficult for you to understand - like brand perceptions and reputations
1. Must dream of owning the car
2. Must be priced higher than $42,000
3. Is sold at brand specific butt kissing dealers
4. Has a "luxury" badge
At least the criteria I listed relate to the CAR.
If I follow your line of thinking in that a luxury car is nothing more than some arbitrary set of qualifying specifications, then it follows that ANYBODY can make a luxury car. Something I think the brand conscious American autobuyer and history will argue with. No mainstream mass market manufacturer will ever make a true luxury car.
EXACTLY. Certainly brand-conscious luxury car buyers will not agree with that statement. But not everyone is brand-conscious (refer to recently posted articles on that point). As for history... just another reminder, this is not 1986 and the Genesis is not the Excel.
Your statement re "No mainstream mass market manufacturer will ever make a true luxury car" has already been invalidated by a number of counter-examples: Toyota makes luxury cars (sold under different badges in different parts of the world); Nissan makes true luxury cars; Mercedes Benz makes true luxury cars; BMW makes true luxury cars. And so on. Yet each is a mainstream, mass-market manufacturer, that makes the entire gamut of cars from small economy cars to luxury cars. And now another mainstream mass market manufacturer has joined their ranks.
not everyone is brand conscious is true and a lot of those folks consider buying Hyundais. However amongst those folks that are luxury buyers, most are.
Toyota, is not a luxury brand in this country just like Hyundai and neither sells true luxury cars. If you think the folks that spend the money on a Lexus product think they are buying a Toyota I guess you really don't understand the whole concept of what is and what is not 'luxury' and what kinds of things Hyundai is probably going to have to do to establish the Genesis line as such.
(This photo really has nothing to do with the post, it's just really cool and has a Hyundai in it. Nice job Kurt. And apologies to the CarPool).
they still are - how else could you explain the Camcordimas outselling the Sonatas 7 to 1, or the Civics/Corollas outselling the Elantras etc. etc. If the J3 entrants aren't superior products (something I'm sure you'll agree on), then why are all these folks continuing to want to spend more money for the 'same' thing. Simple to me: the J3 models are perceived as superior and certainly carry less baggage with the brandnames. Even if it isn't true, autobuyers obviously still think that it is.
The 'new normal' hasn't made quite the impact that you think it has - yet. Think people are a little slower to change their attitudes and habits than you give them credit for.
~Alexander Pope
Do not seek the truth, only cease to cherish your opinions.
~Zen Saying
Whatever it is, it must be discernible while sitting in and driving the car. Luxury is all encompassing, and a small badge can't possibly affect it. A badge can affect prestige, but not luxury. Luxury is tangible and measurable. Presteige is not.
if you subscribe to the theory that a 'luxury' car is nothing more than some collection of doodads and bling - then point taken, as long as you can also concede that ANYBODY can therefore make one.
Nothing is further from the truth IMO, a luxury car must also be prestiguous, AND be difficult to acquire. A good part of that has to do with that 'badge' you Hyundai boys so easily dismiss AND a number of things that are immeasurable.
Perhaps the best recent example of this is the Phaeton, a perfectly wonderful collection of well executed doodads and bling, that even had a high enough price to warrant some exclusivity. Was (or is) it a luxury car - perhaps for those that think like you BUT for the true 'luxury' buyers out there it was nothing more than a VW that had to fail, because it had no prestige in the badge and FTM where that badge was sold.
Thus there is no such thing as a used luxury car, by your reckoning. It's pretty easy to acquire a used luxury car for little dough (e.g. 2006 750i for under $30k). Although everyone who drives a luxury car drives a used one. Quite a paradox, isn't it?
You're missing the whole point. The whole thing is going right over your head.
"Is there room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai" is about sales and marketing. It simply asks "Will a luxury car made by Hyundai sell?".
However, the question of what makes a luxury car is germane to the conversation. My definition of luxury in a car is a car that has more, much more, than is needed for basic transportation. Plenty of room, comfort, nice materials, and options such as GPS, high end sound, RWD, powerful engine are common components of a luxury car. But no, "bling and doodads" don't necessarily make a car luxurious and comfortable.
Attributes such as "exclusivity", "rarity", "high cost", a cult following, legendary road feel, etc. are not directly related to luxury. They are directly related to prestige.
Are we all straight now?
So, has the luxury market made room for Hyundai yet? Is it moving in that direction?
Merry Christmas,,,
Bob
Could it be a "luxury sportscar"?
The only new cars are those still sitting on the show room floor.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
True,,, you never really get to drive a new car of your own. I'll have to use that as a bargaining tool next time I buy a new car. :P
Don't you mean the next time you buy a used car?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Uh, yeah.
The only new cars are those still sitting on the show room floor."
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This is exactly the reason why I will ONLY lease my primary vehicle from now on. Leasing is better than owning if you sit down and do a cost analysis on the amount of money that you will be giving to the auto finance company and/or to the bank in the period of 60 months if you purchase a brand new or a used vehicle even if you put a good amount of money down as a down payment for a brand new or used car.
It costs less over the short term as well as over the long term to put down $2,500 to $5,000 and lease a different vehicle every 3 years with a very low monthly lease payment. You avoid having to put down many more thousands of dollars and still having a very high monthly car payment which will last for over 5 years. The amount of money that you will spend in two 3 year intervals of leasing a car will be 50% LESS than the entire 6 years of owning a vehicle and having car payments and repair costs. I took the time to compare buying and leasing and I crunched out the numbers and that's what I discovered. That's the reason why I don't think that I will never buy myself my primary vehicle ever again. I will be leasing it instead.
But I forgot... it's hard if not impossible for a car purchased used to be a luxury car. Probably holds true for a leased car, also. Since you don't pay enough for it in up-front fees or monthly payments, you aren't really driving a luxury car. Sorry.
Is there room in the luxury market for used cars?
I say yes. Who cares about price and exclusivity? If the car feels, drives, and looks luxurious, it is. You can have your cake and eat it too. You get the car at a low price, and your snobby acquaintances don't have to know it was bought used. If they find out, however, I guess it's no longer a luxury car to anyone but the owner.
Merry Christmas to all,,,
High-end car buyers want luxury for less
Put that in your pipe and smoke it, cap'n.