Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

m4d_cow

@Cadenza pic: dump the stupid looking grille and we get classier looking car. Based on gen underpinnings? I hope not, I don;t want to see Hyundai becoming GM.

@Backy: too many cars may become a problem only if the quality breaks down from there, think Camry.

@Sephia: well, arguments will never stop. There's no such thing as an absolute answer with this kind of theme, as each got his/her own mind like tj78 mentioned, that's freedom of thoughts. Different standards will have different results. I don;t take Gen for a true luxury car either.

m4d_cow

These days, most of the time they're just copying each other. Plain and simple.

backy

Toyota's quality problems have absolutely nothing to do with how many Camrys they make in a year. If you have evidence to the contrary, I'd love to see it. Unfortunately for Toyota, their recent quality problems are more complex than that.

Also, I can't recall hearing of two different cars that share the same chassis but one is RWD and one is FWD. Anyway, not to worry as Kia seems to be going out of its way to distance itself from Hyundai, and vice-versa, in everything except some shared engines.

dean3927

"Dynamically, there's a lot to love about the Genesis...."

"Contrary to its staid appearance, the Genesis sedan has a hint of wildness in its demeanor when pushed."

http://magazine.windingroad.com/issue/52/

iluvmysephia1

from Hyundai. In fact, it really chapped Kia's hide to have to be bailed out financially in 1998 by Hyundai. Think about it. They don't want to be told what to do by Hyundai. They were at carmaking before Hyundai.

True fact. The more they distance from Hyundai the better they feel. True grit, angst and feist, car nuts.

m4d_cow

Huge sales like Toy's made them arrogant, started to neglect quality control, etc, and the result? Falling quality. Toyota's reputation is falling in homeland Japan and Singapore. Nissan and Honda have been the it cars for the past 5 years or so over there. Why do you think the Japanese media made such negative remarks on Toyota's decision to introduce Lexus brand in Japan? To add to the pain, Toyota used to be the official car for Japanese royalties, Nissan replaced it since 2005. It's a big smack to their reputation.

Anyway, not to worry as Kia seems to be going out of its way to distance itself from Hyundai, and vice-versa, in everything except some shared engines.

Good news. Domestic players should really learn from this. Hello, GM, Chrysler, are you guys listening? :P

backy

Maybe Toyota's overall success in the marketplace made them arrogant. But I don't agree there is a direct correlation between the number of Camrys produced and Toyota's recent quality problems. Consider that the Camry was the best-selling car in the USA going back two previous generations of Camrys. Those cars had a rock-solid reputation for quality and reliability, and they sold in huge numbers. No, it has more to do with "stupid executive decisions" on decontenting (including the 2007+ Camry) and not keeping their fanatical attention to quality overall that has hurt them, IMO.

Also, note that Honda sells huge volumes of Accords, Civics, and CR-Vs, and those volumes haven't caused quality problems as at Toyota. Because Honda maintained its focus on quality while expanding its product line and ramping up production. So far, it appears Hyundai has been able to maintain its focus on quality also as it has ramped up sales and added models like the Genesis. But they do have to be careful to continue that focus on quality, lest they end up like Toyota a few years down the line.

m4d_cow

So far, it appears Hyundai has been able to maintain its focus on quality also as it has ramped up sales and added models like the Genesis. But they do have to be careful to continue that focus on quality, lest they end up like Toyota a few years down the line.

True, and I agree. Honda managed to keep it's head down, Toyota blew it. Hyundai so far so good, hope it stays that way.

Happy thanksgiving to you all.

tjc78

This forum isn't about Toyota however, I have to chime in about the Camry. My mother has an '09 SE (flawless, not a rattle, nicely put together) my buddy has an early build '07 V6 (flawless to date). We also have 6 in the fleet at work (3 '07s and 3 '08s) all have been flawless except a broken door latch caused by someone forcing it when frozen. I have ridden/driven in them and one is approaching 100K no rattles, still looks great inside etc. Of course now they are all recalled because people can't be responsible enough to make sure their floormats are properly installed, but that is another story.

Rant over, back to Hyundai!

bobad

I can't believe this... first we read in some posts how the Genesis isn't selling well enough, compared with some competitors. Now we see how too many Genesis sales would be bad also.



The second was a news report on the recall of 3.8 million Toyotas to replace their gas pedals.

Got a Safety Recall notice in the mail last week for my '08 Tacoma.

People are fed up with expensive trucks that fall apart. Hyundai shouldn't have killed their truck. It would have been selling great right now.

fintail

Ignorantly? We can do a styling analysis of the Genesis if you want. There's a lot of other DNA present.

Your links are both of the same car :P

I don't think anyone is going to copy the Equus. I don't know if it was even created by an actual automotive stylist. Who would stick on that hilarious hood ornament?

dulnev

I've been agonizing over the next car purchase for several months. Currently drive Lexus GS 450h. I can buy a 2010 Genesis 4.6 with Technology package for about $38,000, or about $15,000 less than the 2010 GS450h.

So I went and drove the Genesis again. This time taking it by myself for about a 40 minute test drive. I really liked the car except for a couple of things that I can possibly live with: (1) the front and side of the drive seat are very soft and unsupportive, and (2) the ride felt very "bouncy". I felt the car was a lot of fun to drive.

But after doing several days of additional research and reading Genesis owner forums, I decided against buying this car. The reasons are as follows:

(1) There are significant reliability issues apparent with this car from the owner forums. It is NOT the frequency of these issues that scares me, it is their severity. The type of issues some of the owners are reporting -- like complete shutdown of the car or some of its electrical systems -- are of the type that would never happen on a Lexus. They might happen on a Jaguar (and do happen on the new XF), but that is why I would also not buy a Jaguar at this point.

(2) The dealership experience servicing the car sounds very discouraging. They really have a long way to go before they achieve Lexus dealer customer satisfaction levels.

I was very disappointed with these findings as I really wanted to get this car. The value proposition is simply unbeatable. I guess I have to wait another 3-4 years...

backy

From what I've seen on the 'net, one 4.6 owner reported an electrical shutdown. Have you seen more than this one report? In that thread, btw, other owners noted how a similar thing had happened to them in an Accord or Maxima.

You have probably already read the GS 450h discussions here that talk about the various issues with that car, including transmission problems, and decided that what you've read about 2010 Genesis 4.6 problems is significantly worse than what owners are experiencing with the GS 450h.

As for dealership experience, if having a Lexus-style dealership experience is important enough to you to spend the extra $15,000 or so, then that is what you should do. Personally, I've had a very satisfying experience with the customer service I get from my local Hyundai dealership. But it's definitely not the kind of experience you'd get at a Lexus dealership. It's a nondescript building, and the customer lounge is rather small (although it does offer free beverages and PC/Internet use). I don't mind it, but to each his own.

bobad

dulnev, your reliability concerns are unfounded.

You must keep in mind that 1 problem repeated on the Web 100 times is not the same as 100 problems repeated once.

Are you new on the Edmunds forums? I don't recognize your alias, but your writing style seems familiar.

espo35

Are you new on the Edmunds forums? I don't recognize your alias, but your writing style seems familiar.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

stever

Not hardly, unless you consider a member that's been posting here since 2002 "new".

We welcome all points of view on automotive matters. However, although interactions within the Community Services occur in cyberspace, everyday manners apply. Please respect and interact with fellow Members as you would in any public arena.

In other words, please stay on topic (if I have to spell it out for you, it's Hyundai, not the motives of your fellow car nuts).

captain2

I don't think anyone is going to copy the Equus. I don't know if it was even created by an actual automotive stylist.
Let's hope not, and also hope that Hyundai has enough sense to clean up a really 'gimmicked up' appearance IMO. If Hyundai is really intent on selling $50k cars, it would be a shame that it be so darn ugly.

captain2

I can't believe this... first we read in some posts how the Genesis isn't selling well enough, compared with some competitors. Now we see how too many Genesis sales would be bad also.
the apparent contradiction easily understood - by most.
If you think that the Genesis' competition are the BMWs/MBs/Lexuses etc. of the word - then the Genesis is selling too well.
if you think instead that the Genesis more properly competes with those cars in the same price category (Avs,Maxs, Lucernes etc.) then the Genesis is not selling well enough
Why is that so tough to fathom? :confuse:

backy

Please go back and re-read my post. It explains how cars like the Mercedes E Class and BMW 5 Series are selling in much greater volume than the Genesis sedan. So, you noted:

If you think that the Genesis' competition are the BMWs/MBs/Lexuses etc. of the word - then the Genesis is selling too well.

How can the Genesis be selling too well when it is at roughly 1/2 the sales volume of each of these other cars???

That kind of illogic is tough for me to fathom, I admit. :confuse:

captain2

I can't believe this... first we read in some posts how the Genesis isn't selling well enough, compared with some competitors. Now we see how too many Genesis sales would be bad also.
that would be your first paragraph that I commented on - not the second - my bad
however, an explanation of why those true lux sedans 'sell' in greater volumes might be in the breadth (# of different models) of the 5 and E series lines vs. the single Genesis model to come up with the 18000. You also wonder how much higher a percentage of BMWs and MBs are leased compared to Hyundais.

houdini1

Well then, according to your latest wild eyed theory of exclusivity, the Genesis is the #1 luxury car in the U.S. I knew you would come around !

backy

First, there are 4 "lines" included in the Genesis sales volumes: 3.8 sedan, 4.6 sedan, 2.0 coupe, 3.8 coupe. Not just a "single Genesis model".

Second, the breadth of 5 Series and E Class lines and how many are leased vs. purchased has nothing to do with your original position, to which I replied, contending that if the Genesis sells in more volume, it will be a problem in terms of exclusivity.

dulnev

No, not one experience. As far as I know posting names of other discussion forums is against the rules on Edmunds forums, otherwise I'd offer you a link. But if you used a search engine and searched for a Genesis owners forum, you'd find it quite easily. The poll of problems on that forum speaks for itself.

As far as your comments on the dealer experience, those are very snide comments that don't help you make your point in a way that would earn your opinion respect. To clarify: when I talk about Lexus-like experience, I don't talk about free soda and bagels in the waiting room. I am referring to the service department paying attention to customer complaints, and not dismissing them. I am also talking about service staff being competent enough to be able to diagnose a problem in a car loaded with new technology. This is what I saw reported as lacking on the same ownership forum.

captain2

The poll of problems on that forum speaks for itself.

In all fairness to Hyundai, if you preuse these forums on that kind of basis, you will find reports of nothing but problems. People with problems tend to have an agenda and perhaps are looking for a vehicle for resolution (or satisfaction), folks that don't -aren't on these forums at all.

tjc78

I read the forum you are referring and I believe it is limited to two cases of the problem you mention. In all my reading of that fourm really the biggest problem has been quirks with the technology package. There is now a record of it and the dealers know what to replace to fix it all up.

There are many satisfied Genesis owners on that site. Actually, I would say with the exception of a few that hate the ride the overwhelming majority are thrilled with their car and would recommend it to anyone.

I have a fairly early build Genesis and haven't had any problems at all (with the exception of the alignment being out from delivery). As Captain stated most times forums bring up the worst in any particular vehicle because the 1% who may be having problems are on there.

If you are ruling out the Genesis for reliability I would say that is a mistake. You can't beat the warranty and from what I read there really isn't enough data to say that the car is problematic.

If you are ruling the car out for other subjective reasons, well that is your opinion and the other cars you mentioned are very nice rides as well.

espo35

Well-said, captain. Noone ever comes by my service deptartment just to say "Hello, my car is running fine!" The best way to get objective opinions is from J.D Power's surveys....and last I looked, Hyundai is doing great, there.

captain2

while I'll agree on the truly independent survey as a good source of information on about anything, I can't look to JDP for that - there's too much money changing hands :sick:

m4d_cow

Welcome to the forum.

If you're looking at Genesis expecting Acura-Lexus lavel service quality, then you'd be disappointed. Backy's dealer seems to be an exception, as most of Hyundai dealers I know of, while offering good service quality, still got a long way to go to match the established brands.

As far as Genesis quality goes, it'd be wiser to check not only owners forum but also service bulletin and other sources like Consumer Reports (stay off JDP, they're on payroll from what I see). The car itself isn't to my taste, but not a bad car. If you want firmer seats you'd be better served with Japanese or European cars, as only those offer firm seats.

OTOH I can understand your concerns. IMO no car is flawless, it's a) how serious the problem is, and b) how the problem gets fixed that actually matter.

m4d_cow

If Hyundai really decides to bring it to US, it'd better be paying attention to one significant problem: the car is far more comfortable in the back than the front. In US market, where consumers drive the cars themselves, this setting definitely ain't gonna work.

backy

I did use a search engine (the well-known one that starts with a G), and found one complaint in a Genesis owners' forum on a shutdown of a Genesis 4.6. If you don't think you can post the link to the forum you saw, how about posting a search string that will help me and others zero in on the particular forum or forums you looked at?

Thanks for clarifying what you mean by a "Lexus-like experience." But in my experience, having the service department pay attention to customer complaints is not unique to Lexus, and is something my Hyundai dealer does very well--as have many other non-Lexus dealers in my car-owning past. (And some haven't done a good job at that. I don't think it's a brand-specific behavior.)

As for being competent to diagnose problems in cars loaded with new technology, if you search the Lexus owner forums, you will see plenty of complaints of dealers not being able to diagnose problems related to "new technology". And Lexus has been at that "game" a lot longer than Hyundai. So I am trying to understand how this is a differentiator. Here is one example (also an example of how to use a specific search string to point someone to a specific site): search on "SC430 2002 - dead battery, again and again". When I did that in that search engine that starts with G, the first link is the Lexus owner's forum I am referring to.

The bottom line is, if you want to buy a Lexus instead of a Hyundai, you don't have to justify that decision to ANYONE. I don't care if it's because a Hyundai factory rep looked at you cross-wise at an auto show 10 years ago. But if you want to justify your decision to others (as in this discussion) by comparing attributes such as reliability and dealer service, that opens up your decision-making process to discussion.

BTW.. assuming that someone who has a different opinion than you is incapable of using a search engine isn't a good way to earn your opinion respect.

dulnev

Like I said it my original post, it is not the frequency of the reported problems that makes me apprehensive, it is their severity. The thread on the owner's forum that I war referring to is "Have you had problems with your Genesis?". It is eight pages of posts, and I read every single one of them, as well as other threads on that discussion board. What concerns me is a Jaguar-like number of weird electrical problems that are evident from the posts:

1. Vehicle shutting down -- one post.
2. Unable to start the vehicle -- multiple instances of this problem.
3. Malfunctions of the seat / steering wheel memory feature -- multiple instances of this problem.
4. Unexplained intermittent "Check Engine", TPMS, ECS and other lights turning on for no reason -- way too many instances of such problems.
5. Audio system shutdowns / sound disappearing -- multiple instances of this problem.

These issues indicate immature electrical / computer system in the car.

I really like the Genesis; I think it's a beautiful, fun to drive, and comfortable car. And it is fantastic value for the money. But I'm going to wait a couple of years before the kinks are mostly worked out. I've bought other vehicles in their first production year (Acura TL 2004, Honda Odyssey 2005, Lexus GS 450h) to finally learn my lesson.

I also expect that the more Genesis cars are sold, and as more previous luxury car owners become Hyundai owners, the better the dealer service is going to become.

espo35

"I really like the Genesis; I think it's a beautiful, fun to drive, and comfortable car. And it is fantastic value for the money. But I'm going to wait a couple of years before the kinks are mostly worked out."

The longer you wait, the higher the price-tag will be, as the awards pile up.

The 2010 4.6 in the showroom behind me reads $43,995.00. That's 4K higher than the '09 that sat there last year read.............

houdini1

Like I said it my original post, it is not the frequency of the reported problems that makes me apprehensive, it is their severity.

If that is true, I would think that the alleged unintended acceleration problems with Lexus and Toyota would strike you as more severe than a seat/memory feature.

backy

Thanks for confirming that there was only one post about a shutdown.

I can see how that kind of issue would concern you. But I think your attitude of "this doesn't happen on a Lexus" is misguided. It DOES happen with Lexus cars. Did you search for these kinds of problems with Lexus? With one search I found the following example of multiple, sudden shutdowns on Lexus' flagship sedan:

I have had notihing (sic) but good things to say about my 2004 LS 430 until a couple of weeks ago. On 2 different trips of 200 miles each I have had the engine shut down for a half second or so at 70mph. On the second trip I also had it completely die at around 60mph as I was taking an off ramp that led directly to an on ramp for another interstate. I had to pull over and it restarted immediately. A couple of days ago my wife pulled out to pass a car and it briefly shutdown again. Needless to say, she won't drive it until it is confirmed fixed! Otherwise, it runs great. Mileage is normal. This is not a misfire. It is just like the ignition switch is turned off and then back on. So far the Dealer has no clue since there are no fault codes.

So not only do Lexus cars shut down suddenly, but at least some dealers have trouble diagnosing problems with them. I also found, in a single search per issue, multiple examples (sometimes even entire discussion topics) on all of the other problem areas you mentioned for the Genesis--but for Lexus.

If you are looking for a perfect car, the Genesis isn't it... and neither is a Lexus.

dulnev

If you are looking for a perfect car, the Genesis isn't it... and neither is a Lexus.

Point taken. However, I have never seen reports of frequent electric / computer problems like these for the cars I've owned in the past or currently own (several Acura TL models, Honda Odyssey, or Lexus GS). I'm an avid reader of online forums (the names of which I believe I can't mention here) for these brands. All of these vehicles had their share of various types of problems, including serious transmission issues. But what scares me about these electrical / computer issues is their fickle nature. I'd hate to come out to my car on a -10 degree day and have it not start on me because of a computer glitch. For some reason these types of issues concern me more than transmission problems. Maybe I'm being irrational, but that's how I feel about it.

dulnev

The longer you wait, the higher the price-tag will be, as the awards pile up.

The 2010 4.6 in the showroom behind me reads $43,995.00. That's 4K higher than the '09 that sat there last year read

I don't think so. Like I said, I've been shopping for Genesis, almost pulled the trigger (maybe discussion here will convince me to reconsider my decision not to buy Genesis). So I know the pricing very well. Hyundai did raise the price by a couple thousand from 2009 to 2010, but a part of it was due to the addition of the adaptive cruise control as a standard feature.

And don't be fooled by the sticker price. Without any dealer incentive or rebate the 2010 Genesis 4.6 sedan with technology package and MSRP of $43,800 can be purchased here in Northern Virginia for $2,000 below invoice at $38,575. That's $5,200 off MSRP. Check out Fairfax Hyundai Web site for example for their Internet pricing.

backy

Since even low-end cars are increasingly using computers and other electronics (e.g. ESC), and hybrids like the GS 450h moreso than regular cars, it's hard to avoid the risk of a "computer glitch". Electrical issues are perhaps the most common kind of problem today in otherwise reliable cars. Engines and even transmissions are pretty much perfected, mechanically. But there's all kinds of ways for electronics to "go wrong."

If you are really scared of electrical / computer issues in a car, you might be better off getting as simple a car as possible--i.e. in particular, NOT a hybrid, and avoid "tech" packages on luxury cars. Get a portable nav system instead of built-in, for example--if it breaks, it's $200 or so to replace vs. gosh knows how much for a factory unit that is out of warranty. And get a stick shift vs. automatic, which are increasingly computer controlled. Maybe something like a base IS with stick. More fun, too.

m4d_cow

I understand that, good experience develops trust. The thing is, if you look at NHTSA records you'll see more than one case of non-working seatbelts in a Lexus GS, one on airbag not deploying during collision. Compared to electrical glitches, that'd scare me more. Acura TL... well, I think we're all aware of the legendary tranny explosion in the pre-2004MY.

That said, I agree with you, the 1st (and sometimes 2nd) MY of any model still got glitches to work on, making waiting the better choice.

Oh, and Espo, if the Genesis price really piles up one can always buy something else, you know? Infiniti, Lexus, MB, Audi and BMW will always welcome customers with open hands. No Genesis end up costing more than $40k in my area (and that's a loaded 4.6v8), nobody buys a mass production car for sticker nowadays. :P

captain2

can be purchased here in Northern Virginia for $2,000 below invoice at $38,575.
this surprises me - the Avalon Limited is selling at something slightly OVER invoice ($33k) judging by the posts I read on the 'Prices Paid' site - albeit at 0% financing. Keep in mind that the current Avalon is a 5 year old design. Can not believe that the relatively new Genesis would already be selling for that kind of discount.
Maybe a good indicator of what folks EXPECT Hyundai products to sell for - discount wise - likely meaning typically poor Hyundai resale values, a sign that the world still isn't ready for a $40k+ Hyundai, and even a continued perception problem for the brand?

tjc78 - since I know you lease your cars and are also an ex Avalon owner as well as a Genesis convert - which was cheaper to lease a new Av or the Genesis you did get? Lease prices are representative of anticipated resale values, if you can discount mfgr subsidies.

tjc78

which was cheaper to lease a new Av or the Genesis you did get?

Captain,

I didn't price a new Avalon but I can compare it to my previous lease and they were roughly the same (with very similar MSRPs too). However, the leases were vastly different. The Avalon ended up being a residual in the 19K range where the Genesis is around 16.5K (36mth). The biggest difference was the Genesis lease was highly subsidized (MF translated to 1.44% and there was $1000.00 lease cash). Without that the Genesis would have been at least $70.00 more a month. (19K-16.5 / 36 = 69.44 + interest)

captain2

1. Vehicle shutting down -- one post.
2. Unable to start the vehicle -- multiple instances of this problem.
3. Malfunctions of the seat / steering wheel memory feature -- multiple instances of this problem.
4. Unexplained intermittent "Check Engine", TPMS, ECS and other lights turning on for no reason -- way too many instances of such problems.
5. Audio system shutdowns / sound disappearing -- multiple instances of this problem.
you sure you didn't find these on a BMW or MB forum? If you really want electronic gremlins, look to the Germans, they have seemingly invented the concept

dulnev

Keep in mind that the current Avalon is a 5 year old design. Can not believe that the relatively new Genesis would already be selling for that kind of discount.

Do you want to hear something shocking? A brand new Infiniti M45 model year 2010 with Technology package can be purchased for almost $10,000 under MSRP! That's 46K for a well-loaded V8 top-of-the line Infiniti. The main reason for this I believe is that the 2011 M56 and M37 are coming out around May of next year.

captain2

A brand new Infiniti M45 model year 2010 with Technology
a helluva deal I guess although that would ultimately hurt resale values on that car as well.
The reason I used the Avalon as an example is first because it is more directly a competitor to especially the 3.8 Genesis, is more likely to be shopped by the same demographic, and, of course, costs about the same initial dollars - even if the Avalon is going to ultimately be a cheaper ride - in the upscale large sedan class. That the M45 might be selling at similar (or even greater) discounts than a Gen 4.6 really of no import - one is a luxury car - the other isn't.

backy

If the discount on the M45 gets any bigger, I guess we can't consider it a "luxury" car any more, right? It will be too cheap to be a luxury car.

houdini1

Not to mention the exclusivity factor !!

british_rover

Its not a deal if you read the fine print.

There is over 6,000 dollars between invoice and MSRP on a M45 with the tech package and premium packages plus there is 5,000 dollars of dealer cash available if you do not take the special Infiniti Financing but you still finance through Infiniti financial.

So you give up your 3.9% or less APR but are still forced to finance at what are most likely very high standard rates through Infiniti to get that 5,000 dollars off. All the while the dealer is still making 1,000 plus on the front, plus back end money from the financing plus whatever form of holdback that Infiniti has on a model that never sold well to begin with. I just looked it up it is 1% of base MSRP so another few hundred dollars.

On a car like that I would want to be a few hundred below invoice minus incentives if I was buying one.

espo35

Turn in your Grey Poupon, captain!

dulnev

On a car like that I would want to be a few hundred below invoice minus incentives if I was buying one.

Not sure how you're running your calculations, but it really is an extraordinary deal. The MSRP is $56,365, the invoice is $51,902. I can buy the car for $46,402, which is $5,500 below invoice.

So you have to finance with Infiniti in order for the dealer to get the $5,000 incentive. Fine, no big deal. If the rate turns out to be high I can always immediately refinance with Pentagon Federal credit union for 4% or pay off the loan in cash. There's so many ways to do creative financing these days! The price of the car is the key if you have good credit. If you don't have good credit, you probably are not buying a $40-$50K vehicle.

british_rover

On that car it is an ok deal but not an outstanding deal. The one I priced out had a MSRP over 60,000 and more then 6,000 dollars of spread between invoice and MSRP.

stever

"We've shown you the Kia Cadenza, the sedan that will replace the Amanti, but is there room for a sedan above that? Maybe, if parent company Hyundai's upward drive, with the Genesis and Equus, is any indication."

Is Kia Working on a Car Above the Cadenza? (Straightline)