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As a generality I'd tend to agree, but in the context we are talking about here, what is 'ancient' to you is just yesterday to others. Whether it's 40% or not, I have no idea, but a substantial portion of the car buyers out there don't seem have such short memories.
Fine but how does that apply to automobiles? :confuse: Chrysler has been making some genuinely crappy automobiles for several years now. You really think if they turned over a new leaf tomorrow that the carbuyer is going to magically forget what they did 5 years earlier, or accept the brand with open arms 5 years from now. I say it is not reasonable to assume that they would.
In the early 90s I got seriously screwed by Chrysler with a poorly designed tranny, multiple tranny failures, and a company that wouldn't stand behind its product. I'll never ever spend another nickel on a Chrysler product, and I don't care how supposedly good the product becomes or how old I get. Hyundai has more than its share of ex-customers like that - dating back to about the same time. Yugo got a deserved bad rap about the same time that the Excel was being sold - you really think that if Yugo came back into this country that the car buyer is going to welcome it with open arms just because he/she may not have been alive back in the 80s? Again, think not.
Toyota had a similar problem based on what they sold in the 60s, and it easily took into the middle late 80s for them to live it down to the point that they could create a luxury brand and be taken seriously. People don't change because of all the garbage that they might read on the Internet, they change (or don't change) based primarily on their own experiences.
Your perceptions of Hyundai have obviously changed based on your own experiences, but to expect that anybody is going to change with you or because of your experiences is something that I don't believe can be assumed.
Fine but how does that apply to automobiles? :confuse: Chrysler has been making some genuinely crappy automobiles for several years now. You really think if they turned over a new leaf tomorrow that the carbuyer is going to magically forget what they did 5 years earlier, or accept the brand with open arms 5 years from now. I say it is not reasonable to assume that they would.
In the early 90s I got seriously screwed by Chrysler with a poorly designed tranny, multiple tranny failures, and a company that wouldn't stand behind its product. I'll never ever spend another nickel on a Chrysler product, and I don't care how supposedly good the product becomes or how old I get. Hyundai has more than its share of ex-customers like that - dating back to about the same time. Yugo got a deserved bad rap about the same time that the Excel was being sold - you really think that if Yugo came back into this country that the car buyer is going to welcome it with open arms just because he/she may not have been alive back in the 80s? Again, think not.
Toyota had a similar problem based on what they sold in the 60s, and it easily took into the middle late 80s for them to live it down to the point that they could create a luxury brand and be taken seriously. People don't change because of all the garbage that they might read on the Internet, they change (or don't change) based primarily on their own experiences.
Your perceptions of Hyundai have obviously changed based on your own experiences, but to expect that anybody is going to change with you or because of your experiences is something that I don't believe can be assumed.
Dupes are gone.
Regards:
Oldengineer
Is Chrysler perfect? Nope. Would I consider buying any of their current vehicles? Probably not. (I hate the looks of the 2008+ minivans.) Would I be willing to give them another chance if they someday make a vehicle that interests me? Sure. After I do my research.
What does that have to do with the Genesis?
The management, engineers, designers, and assembly workers are probably all different. How would you feel if you were put in jail because your father committed a crime before you were born?
If the Yugo came back, and was excellently engineered, extremely reliable, well optioned, good warranty, and good price, I would give it a fair shot. Of course, I would make sure the original engineers were dead and buried, or at least retired. :P
Believe me, Genesis has nothing in common with a 2000 Hyundai.
"Judgements"? No.... Just my opinion. Which, when coupled with 99 cents, will get you two luscious tacos at Jack In The Box (for a limited time)......
However, that criticism could possibly fit someone that refuses to even consider Genesis (among others) and give it a test drive.
Well, to some extent I may agree. Although people with fairly recent bad experiences with Hyundai products will most likely still hold a grudge towards the brand, and if such people refuse to even consider Gen I can totally understand.
This whole thread isn't really about the Genesis specifically either, what it is supposed to be about is Hyundai as a 'luxury brand' or a 'luxury car' car mfgr.
Oldcem's comments about a problematical Hyundai that he happened to own has a lot to do with his ability to accept Hyundai's brand and quality perceptions as a 'luxury' anything - so in that respect it has a lot to do with our topic, IMO.
I will guarantee you you one thing though - Oldcem's memories likely will last a whole lot more than 5 years - maybe even as long as the 50 years (if I live that long) mine will last in my not so fond memories of Chrysler products.
See more Car Pictures at CarSpace.com
which is precisely my point. I have no doubt that Hyundai is improving their products - hell they had to - to survive. But that's not the question, the real point is of all the autobuyers out there, how many are willing to forgive and forget that quickly. We're not just talking about the oldcem's of the world that had some direct experience, but also those with indirect experiences (perhaps a friend owned one once,) or even simply remember reading about Korean car quality issues 20 years ago (or whatever). That marketing man's mans quote would seem to say that 60% can look past the checkered history, but 40% still remember. That 40% is a very big number in my mind. If 40% of the autobuyers out there really won't even consider a Hyundai branded product how is it ever to be considered 'luxury'. :confuse: Brand reputation is a big hurdle to clear, if you are seeking acceptance into the world of true luxury sedans.
I see; my opinion that some out here aren't exactly "cutting-edge" (sic) is an attack, but your opinion that Genesis isn't exactly a "luxury-car" is a valid fact?
Gotcha.
Back to Hyundai news, this may be the dumbest award yet:
AnxietyIndex Hall of Fame Honorees (AnxietyIndex.com)
Someone posted this news somewhere, but in case you missed it:
Hyundai wins 10 mpg with new direct-injection engine dubbed Theta II (Mibz)
I suppose it's topical if you can equate luxury with better (new anyway) technology.
tha being the case we know who came out the winner on that debate
I'm about tapped out for Hyundai news, much less luxury news. Mid-month and no sales figures either. Everyone is down apparently. Maybe the Genesis will take a pop when people buy their spouses luxury presents for Christmas? Or maybe anxiety about jobs will continue.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
They don't need to 'announce' anything - they already have them!!!! They have been available now for at least 5 years, the 2GR-FSE Toyota V6, the GM HF 3.6, the MB 3.5, the VW 3.6, the BMW I6s, and even the 08 Ford DT. etc etc etc. Hyundai's own 3.8 is equipped for DI, I believe - as in the 06 Azera - although I don't think the system was actually used in that particular car, it is in the Genesis.
Such is the nature of a press release - they would have you believe that something 'revolutionary' is in the works when in reality they are doing nothing more than what they need to to keep up.
""And people who cling to past memories miss out on some great things.""
The way that most people form opinions is by relying upon past experiences to try to predict a future outcome.
Our 2006 loaded Azera has been the best car that my wife has owned in her 57 years of driving! Ever since the first car show pictures appeared, we have been dreaming of replacing it someday with a Genesis sedan.
Until Monday, when we took the Azera in for it's 36,000 mile service. While waiting, I checked out a new 2009 Genesis sedan on the showroom floor. The MSRP was $42,000 plus $2,000 worth of pin-striping, advertising charge, floor mats, etc. When I sat down with the salesman, he informed me that, without a trade-in, I could buy that beautiful, (last year’s), Genesis for only $44,000 plus tax, etc! I told him that I would think about it.
On the way home, we stopped at the nearby Infiniti dealer. Inquiring about a new 2010 Infiniti EX35, the salesman, who was most gracious, (since we were the only customers in the huge showroom), found a loaded EX35, with every option, just as we wanted it, at another dealership. The MSRP was $43,400.
Following a brief conversation with his Sales Manager, their first offer was a $5,400 discount! Our counteroffer, which was accepted without quibble, was for a $6,100 discount!! Tomorrow, the EX35 will be delivered to our home, free of charge, by the salesman! We live 48 miles from his dealership. He plans to spend “an hour or two” teaching us how to use all the fabulous Hi-Tech features of the EX35!!! He promised to visit us again at our home in a few weeks to verify that we have learned our lessons!!!!
What I learned is that there are more factors to consider than just MSRP and car mag reports! Is a $42,000 2009 Genesis really a ‘great value’ for only $44,000!??! OR, is the highly rated $43,400 2010 EX35 an even better value for $37,300!??!
PS: I have no idea why we were able to so easily get a 14% discount on such a great vehicle! This huge dealership has been a family owned and operated business in NC since 1933, selling Chevrolet, Nissan, Toyota, Scion, and Infiniti!! Maybe a ‘Senior Discount’!??!
PPS: Our EX35 is not an ‘SUV’, since it does not have ‘4WD’ or ‘AWD’. It is often refered to as a ‘crossover vehicle’, but, like the new Cadillac CTS wagon, it is really a ‘Sport Wagon’!!
“A rose by any other name will smell just as sweet!” This EX35, and the brand, and the deal, and the dealership, so far, could not be sweeter!!
.
I don't think the Azera has DI.
and neither does the Genesis.
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2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Looks like some LUXURY and exotic cars are at least toying with the idea but certainly nothing else in the affordable family sedan market.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
First, I missed your last post explaining your comment being an opinion, sorry about that.
Second, you describe the so called "cutting edge" (aka smart and savvy in your speak) as minority, that means the "not cutting edge" are more than some. Please read your own words and don;t turn it around.
Three, EXACTLY WHEN did I ever say that my opinion about Genesis is a valid fact? Please point this out.
You, as well as some previous posters here, seem to miss the point: this is a discussion where there is no right or wrong. It's about agreement and disagreement.
I can say Gen is not a luxury car by my definition, and it's a luxury car by Backy's definition and I respect that. You have your own definition, but don't call those who disagree as aren't cutting edge. I can think the same about you but I can refrain from making those personal attack remarks, and you're trying to say that we aren't smart and savvy? Please...
No offense meant towards you.
Or anyone else here either, I'm sure.
Someone's buying them. "Hyundai-Kia Automotive Group recorded one of the biggest operating profits in the world in the third quarter."
Hyundai-Kia's Q3 Operating Profits Top Global League (Digital Chosun)
And now the Tucson is getting compared to the luxury Toyota brand:
"The Tucson will be nearly identical to the widely praised ix35 concept vehicle Hyundai revealed at the Frankfurt auto show in September. The ix35’s styling, features and high-quality interior drew favorable comparisons to Lexus, Toyota’s luxury brand."
Boston Herald
Why, of course....ahem... that's what I meant!
Remains to be seen, of course, whether any 4 cylinder engine can match Honda and Toyota levels of 'perfection', of course with or without the ballyhooed DI.
Remembering back to those wheezy 4 bangers, and even more pathetic 2.7L V-6s that Hyundai foisted on us for years, I am more impressed by Hyundai's progress under the hood, than I am with the ability to build a 'luxurious' car. Anybody can do that, but building a technologically superior 'small' engine -takes some know how, experience, and obviously money. The D3, I contend, has failed in the car business because they haven't been able to do that for 25+ years , whereas for folks like Honda, particularly, it is their signature.
Good grief, man.... the 2.7 is an absolutely bulletproof, proven, small V-6.
Used in Tucson, Sonata and Santa Fe and Tiburon for years, I've helped thousands of owners of these engines and not one has a bad thing to say about them....
none.
you claim to have 'helped' thousands of 2.7 owners and NOBODY has ever had a problem with one - yeah right! I guess that begs the questions then - why did they need your help if they had no problems :P
Nissan redefined the mid size sedan V6 in 2002 with the 240hp VQ, Honda followed a year after that. All the while, that mightly 2.7 was just barely putting out the same HP (160hp) you could get in the better (and smoother) 4 bangers from Toyota and Honda. Hyundai has never been much for class competitive engines, but they are working on it.
Would you consider a faulty oxygen sensor or a scheduled maintenance an "engine problem"?
In six years I've replaced ONE 2.7 engine due to an internal problem.
As far as "better and smoother" engines...... uhhhh...... how exactly would you define THOSE parameters?
Your bias is showing. Some counterexamples:
1998: 2.0L, 135 hp I4. Compare to J3 at that time. Pretty darn close if not better. Also the Beta/Beta II has been a very reliable engine.
2004: 2.4L, 162 hp Theta I4. Compare to J3 at the time. Also pretty darn close if not better. Current version makes 175 hp, with better FE than 162 hp version. Next version, early next year, with DI will make about 200 hp, with better FE than current engine. And in 2008 Hyundai/Kia introduced the 2.0L Theta II (Forte) with 156 hp, which is extremely competitive.
2004: 3.3L Lambda V6, 237 hp, now at 249-264 hp depending on application. Also has a 3.8L variant used in several vehicles including Genesis (306 hp in the coupe). A new 3.5L variant has 277 hp (Sorento).
2008: 4.6L Tau V8, used in the Genesis et. al. 375 hp, one of Ward's Ten Best engines.
Looks like Hyundai's engines are plenty competitive to me.
What?!? No Hyundais?!?
I stand by my statement though that Hyundai has never been a leader in the ole engine compartment - and also by my statement that they are finally getting around to getting better. Honda continues to set the standard in 4 bangers - as they have for years and years, the Toyota 2GR set a new standard in 2005 for V6s, and as far as V8s go - I'll put eiither the Lexus 4.6, the Nissan 4.5, and finally the big GM 6.2 (G8 engine) up there with anything.
C'mon.... pushrods??? So 60s.
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Once again a friendly reminder... the calendar says Nov. 20, 2009, not 1986.
So the point is: an underachiever in what terms? That's what we need to verify first before making further arguments.
The Tau isn't class standard, but it is class competitive, I'd say. Compared to the Japanese, I'd take Nissan as the standard for performance, Toyota for refinement and smoothness.
Add the germans, but the 6.2 pushrod? Depends on what the measurements are. Speed, performance in car, yeah it's all good. But refinement, technology, and horsepower ratio? No way. The engine's a performer but it's a dinosaur in technology.
How many years ago was that?
Why should we exclude the latest models? Are buyers of new cars today going to buy the latest models, or a Sephia from 10+ years ago? And if they are looking at a car in the "luxury" class, they won't be looking at anything like the Sephia, or its modern counterpart, the Forte (which BTW has very competitive powertrains).
It also needed a fuel line electrical retrofit kit of some sort put in, also under Warranty. The thing that fixed the car the most for driving fun was when I bought a new set of 70,000 mile Yokohama radials and Konig Diva wheels. The Sephia handled pretty well after that and it was really run to throw it in to turns much more aggressively.
backy, from what I read it seems to me that m4d cow actually was agreeing with you on the Sephia's engine strength and virtue.
And the Sephia's engine is said to be a clone of the Mazda 123, not from Mitsubishi.
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
Long time Hyundai owner here. I've owned many since the late 80's and have enjoyed watching them improve the quality exponentially.
Currently, we own a 2008 Veracruz Limited and my wife LOVES it! We could have bought the Lexus RX350 but we both wanted the Veracruz for several reasons. Primarily the 3rd row you cannot get in the lexus, the Veracruz is just bigger and comes with a superior warranty.
My son is beginning to drive and I really wanted a sedan in the family so I began looking around at the many used car offerings out there and realized that you simply cannot find a better used car value that an Azera. We recently purchased a used 2008 Azera Limited with ultimate package for $15,900 plus tax. The Azera is a fantastic vehicle. I'm extremely impressed with how well its put together and how composed its driving dynamics are. While I'm aware many early Azeras suffered from suspension woes, my '08 exhibits none of this thankfully!
While the Azera may not qualify for a luxury car it proves that Hyundai has the capability. I've sat inside the Genesis however, I have yet to test drive one but suspect it will be our next car after the Veracruz.
It is really surreal to reflect back to my fist new car I ever bought...My '88 Excel 3-door hatchback. I LOVED that car! I washed and waxed it every other day and babied it like crazy! While others didn't have the same luck with theirs, mine served me well and when my brother came home from the first gulf war I gave it to him as a gift. He drove it to 150,000 miles when the odometer broke...then drove it another two years before his ex took it out of state so who knows how many miles it had before its demise. Nothing major ever failed on that thing! To think now I own a Veracruz and Azera and how far Hyundai has come....Its nothing short of remarkable!!!
Craig
@iluvmysephia:
interesting, I had a 98 Sephia (I think it;s the same model). The engine was coarse sounding like I mentioned, but zero problems. Even after simple tuneup (nothing fancy like turbocharging or anything) and recalibration the engine remained bulletproof (not to mention capable of blowing the doors off Civic and Proteges). The right tweak made it fast, real fast for it's engine size :shades: