Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

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Comments

  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    have different suspension setups????

    like the Buick version suspension?
    The toyota version suspension?
    And then the Honda/mazda Nissan sportier versiON?

    Or are all the trim lines the same?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    V-6s have a slightly firmer suspension (and usually larger rims and tires) than the 4-cylinders. And the SE actually has a different suspension setup which has been lowered a little, and extra cross bracing for better cornering.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    All things are relative, and the "sporty" SE model is really just the one your Uncle Harry will pick, while Aunt Edna will stick with the base suspension.

    The Camry SE isn't sporty, and there's nothing wrong with that.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Camry SE IMO is sportier than a none-Quattro Audi A4.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I agree with louiswei, the SE is a better ride than some base German models. Having said that, I also agree with you: the SE is what I would call the bare minimum in terms of ride and handling, whereas the other 4-cylinder trims are unacceptably squishy and sloppy.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I wouldn't know. Audi without Quattro is sort of pointless.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    Unless you live in CA where it never rains nor snows.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Still pointless. Frontrak? Gimme a break.

    Get a G35, CTS, or 3 series.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    3 Series is a small fortune more than say an Audi A3 frontrak.......

    CTS has a low standard of luxury and handling compared to A3, and poor gas mileage.

    G35 is a small fortune more than an Audi A3 frontrak.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Agree completely pointless.

    I have never even seen a frontrak A4. You would be better off buying a Passat.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I have never even seen a frontrak A4

    :surprise: :surprise: :surprise:

    Are you serious? They are all over the place here in So Cal as well as in Atlanta. I don't have the numbers with me but I believe Audi sold more FWD A4 than the Quattro version.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I am in the northeast so we don't get fwd A4s here. I mean maybe the Audi dealer gets one or two a year for an ad car but that is it. I have seen FWD A4 Cabs of course but that is because you have to get the V6 to get quattro.

    One of our dealers sells a fair number of Audis pre-owned and would never even think of trying to sell a frontrak A4. On 2006 A4s FWD is a 2,200 dollar deduct wholesale which just happens to be more then you would pay for the option brand new in 2007.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, since you are in the Northeast I can't understand that you don't see FWD A4. However, they are still relevant for the folks who live under the snow belt.
  • dino001dino001 Member Posts: 6,191
    Here in Florida majority of A4s sold are Frontrack. But Audi here is so minor that many people wouldn't even know what they are. I also think Audi without quatro is completele pointless, but apparently people here diagree.

    2018 430i Gran Coupe

  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Quattro is probably the best AWD system in any car period. To get an Audi without it just makes no sense to me. If you want a FWD A4 just get a Passat and save even more money over an equivalent A4.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Honda/Acura's SH-AWD is pretty high up there as well. Can't wait to see the next gen TL equips with SH-AWD and 300+ HP.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Who's talking about the A3?

    He said A4.

    Now you're in G35 price territory, and it's over.

    G35x vs. A4 Quattro is a better fight.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think...

    G35x vs. 3.2 A4 Quattro
    IS250 AWD vs. 2.0T A4 Quattro

    Back on Toyota on offensive...

    I would like to see Lexus brings back the IS300 to replace the IS250. The old 3.0L I6 will give the much needed power boost to the lower end IS. Granted the 2.5L V6 is smooth and all but 200HP is just pathetic for a V6 these days (and yes I know it's only 2.5L). Is it enough for daily use and under normal driving condition? You bet. But it is just not being competitive in today's entry level luxury performance sedan market. A 230HP IS300 will be a formidable competitor to both the 328i and C300.

    Do I think this'll happen? Not really since the 3.0L I6 is an old engine and apparently Toyota/Lexus is making all it's V6 engines into GR series. Reduce production cost I guess...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree, there's just too much of a gap between the IS250 and IS350.

    IMHO they could both be 3.5l engines, just use the simpler injection systems on the low-end models, from the Toyota models. Give it 265hp.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    I doubt we will ever see an Inline 6 from Toyota again they are just too expensive to make and package compared to the V6 engines.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    ateixeira, I like your idea. Maybe even down-tune it to around 240HP in order to distance itself enough from IS350. I guess Lexus can still call it IS300 even though it's carrying a 3.5L V6 just like what BMW did to 325i and 328i.

    A 240HP IS300 with manual tranny and sport suspension can shut off many BMW enthusiasts' mouth. :P
  • grumpsgrumps Member Posts: 2
    ok, so maybe the camery isn't sporty.. but Toyota has proven that it CAN do "sporty" (and do it oh-so-well).
    http://cardevotion.com/Article/186/NewsFlash__Toyota_Hybrid_Races_to_Victory_in_- 24_Hour_Endurance_Event.html?ref=gc
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    But why not just go with the 244 HP manual 6 speed Accord instead?
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    Frontrak is also one of the best FWD systems in any car period. Only Honda, Acura, and Mazda compete for quality FWD handling systems with that. Maybe you can throw in Nissan.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Uh...

    The most important reason: It's RWD.

    Also, although Honda Accord EX V6 is fairly luxurious but it is no comparison to the Lexus. Granted if one has a budget around $25K and needs a family sedan then the Accord might be the way to go. However, if one rarely has the rear seat occupied, has higher budget and is a sucker for luxurious interior (like me :P ) then the IS might be the better choice.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,956
    forgot about the RWD part.... Honda should take the S2000's RWD and use that 244 HP V6 to good measure in other cars. Or probably soon to be 274 HP V6 for 2008... yet to find out...

    :shades:
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Granted the 2.5L V6 is smooth and all but 200HP is just pathetic for a V6 these days (and yes I know it's only 2.5L).

    200 hp would be plenty for the base model if the IS weighed 2700 pounds instead of 3700 or whatever it is.

    And yes, the JZ is gone (too heavy and too expensive and too smoggy).
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    IS350 weighed 3435 lbs, that's a big difference than 3700 lbs. I know you said "whatever it is" but still like to point that out for other folks.

    The days of sub-3000-lb-sedan are over. The extra airbags, safety nannies and gadgets would just keep adding up the weight. Even the much loved, standard of all sports sedans 3-series (335i) weighed 3605 lbs.

    For those who are interested:

    IS250: 3435 lbs
    IS350: 3527 lbs
    G35: 3538 lbs
    TL: 3636 lbs
    328i: 3406 lbs
    335i: 3605 lbs
    C350: 3505 lbs
    C300: 3560 lbs
  • maximafanmaximafan Member Posts: 592
    Toyota must have done something sporty with the Camry SE. Don't forget that Motortrend picked the Camry SE for COTY several months back. I can't recall who the other competitors were at this point. I'll have to dig and look for that issue.
  • u045777u045777 Member Posts: 33
    While the value of the dollar is hitting new lows, lenders closing their doors, mortgage loans difficult to obtain, forclosures skyrocketing, home prices falling, thousand of people getting laid off, it's not the time to buy yet! Dealers and manufacterers will soon be offering big discounts in the coming months. Hold off for 3 to 6 months and save thousands off the price of your next auto.

    The sales people will not like hearing this but it is the TRUTH!
  • makigrlmakigrl Member Posts: 19
    You probably are getting the IS250 cause its sporty, cpmact and premium car. I don't see whats wrong with the base 200 HP engine many of the luxury car companies make the base model barely adequate or just about adequate but nothing usually mind blowing. It might be able to smoke a bmw with a 230 but it do you think it can handle as well?

    Just a couple of years ago the BMW 5 series base car had around 190 HP V-6 for a car that is mid sized is pretty puny but thats what they do. Your probably not getting this for the fuel ecoonmy but the IS 250 has the best fuel of any of the V-6 out there with 28/32 which would be probably be a little lower.

    Even the 300 HP GS which is like a larger IS has mpg of 21/29. Compare that to a Chrysler Sebring convertible with the 235 HP V-6 and it only get 16/26 mpg. Which is pretty bad and chrysler branded cars are the least effecient cars compared to ford and gm.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    The 130i 5 door in the UK is about 3,200 lbs and the three door weighs a little less. I bet the coupe when it comes out next year will be even less then that. The problem is all those compact sport sedans aren't really compact anymore. They are about the size of a midsize car now.

    Even my MINI Cooper S, best handling FWD car I have ever been in, weighed almost 2,600 lbs.

    You need a car down in that size range to be under 3,000 lbs now and that is hard to do with a RWD sedan.

    Just glancing at the specs of older 5 and 7 series models compared to new 5 and 3 series models you can see the changes.

    A 2008 550 is only a few inches shorter then a 740i and only a couple hundred lbs lighter. a 2007 335i is only 200 lbs lighter then a 1999 540i. The 335 does get much better gas mileage though so there have been improvements of course to more then make up for that weight difference.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, like I said, 200HP is more than adequate for a compact size sedan but once comparing to the counterparts then all of the sudden it's not competitive.

    IS250's competitors:

    C300: 228HP
    328i: 230HP
    TSX: 205HP (it has a 4-banger)
    A4 2.0T: 200HP (Turbo 4)

    Given that the different between the IS350 and IS250 is 102HP, bump the IS250 up to 240HP shouldn't hurt the 350 sales at all. Also, it's not like Lexus is trying to sell the IS350 in volumes anyway.

    Do I think a 240HP IS250 with MT and sport suspension will handle as good as a sport package 328i? I am not sure, but I think it'll give the 328i a run for its money. Same goes to the IS350, if one day Lexus decides to lighten up and drop a MT into that car, watch out 335i!

    Lexus, are you listening...
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Edmunds says that Toyota put almost $6,900 incentives last month (July) on Tundra models. Is Toyota doing whatever possible to meet target?
  • colloquorcolloquor Member Posts: 482
    Good question, and yes, is probably the answer. It's interesting, when Toyota offers tremendous incentives, it's acceptable, but when others such as Chrysler, Ford, GM, and Hyundai do so, they're attacked by Toyota loyalists. Strange . . .
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "Good question, and yes, is probably the answer. It's interesting, when Toyota offers tremendous incentives, it's acceptable, but when others such as Chrysler, Ford, GM, and Hyundai do so, they're attacked by Toyota loyalists. Strange . . ."

    Well I think is the first vehicle(Tundra)that Toyota has ever put huge incentives on like this but your right Toyota loyalists do attack other carmakers for putting discounts/rebates on their vehicles. Toyota fans don;t like other manunfacturers putting/discounts on their vehicles because of the rsale value factorand Toyota's do hold their value pretty well.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Three comments...

    1. Toyota is buying its way into the full size truck market. They are profitable so they can play this game.

    2. I don't like huge incentives on the Tundra either but since American are used to buying full size pickups with incentives I can understand Toyota's strategy.

    3. The correct incentive on Tundra is $4,625 not $6,861. Edmunds has just revised the number. Here's the link:

    Edmunds Revises Toyota Incentives Estimate
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    they could've offer the is250 in toyota guise, drop some luxury doodads and voila, your affordable sporty toyota! Like they did with camry and the es, highlander and rx.

    Or for people who are elcheapo but want rwd, throw in the 2.4 as the base, price it where accord ex is.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Rumors has it that Toyota is getting a sub $20K RWD coupe (AE86 successor) along with the new Supra. If that's indeed the case then it is kind of pointless to badge engineering the IS. Also, there is a rumor going around said the current gen ES will be the last one to be the badge job of the Camry, the next one might be a RWD. Looks like Lexus is getting tired of this badge engineering thing and want to make its lineup unique from Toyota's.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    It is not cost effective to have a lexus-only platform, and we all know how good yota is maxing out every penny. On the same token, i do not see toyota making a one car only platform anymore, ala ae86, supra or mr2. A toyota 2 door coupe based on the IS platform without all the doodads; that's a maybe if they can keep the weight down.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    I think the new Supra will share the platform with IS and GS and the rumor is that new ES might be a rebadged Toyota Crown in JDM. The Crown also uses the S-series platform, which is the same one used on the GS and IS. Not sure about the LS but wikipedia is showing that it is using the S-series as well. Kind of hard to believe that the biggest (LS) and smallest (IS) sedans in the Lexus lineup used the same platform.

    Toyota Crown

    As for the AE86 successor, I don't know what platform it is going use. If the size is not much smaller than IS then a shortened IS platform is a possibility (keep in mind that IS uses a shortened GS platform). Like you said, the weight will be a major problem if the new AE86 does end up with the IS platform. However, Toyota can overcome that by getting rid off all the unnecessary gadgets and safety nannies. That may not be a bad idea since this is suppose to be a fun little coupe anyway. 180HP 2.4L and max 3000 lbs (the lower the better of course) could be a very good combination.
  • bumpybumpy Member Posts: 4,425
    Anything IS-based will be too heavy for a proper AE86 successor. Supposedly, it will be a new platform with some Subaru parts, targeted to be about the same size and weight as the Yaris.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Ah, yes, I forgot that the new AE86 will be a joint Toyota-Subaru project.
  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Member Posts: 4,277
    "180HP 2.4L and max 3000 lbs (the lower the better of course) could be a very good combination."

    Yowzah, you call that a sports car! :P J/K

    Seriously, a base model Lotus Elise weighs in at 1984lbs or something, also carrying a 180hp motor. I'd ask for nothing over 2500lbs, and even that is pushing it... And with AWD, I would ask for at least 200hp, the 2.4 (from the Camry I assume) should be good for it. Even cooler would be the 2.5 Boxer motor like the one I have in my Impreza. That is a gutsy little engine right there, plenty for my little wagon. Refine it a bit and it would make a great motor in a sports car.

    I've said this in the past, keep the price around 20 grand before options (AWD optional) and sell it under the Scion badge. It'll fit right in over there.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Yeah 180 hp and a 3,000 lbs curb weight is not sporty sorry.

    3,000 lbs and 220 hp would be pretty good though I would prefer a few hundred lbs less weight. A rwd car with 170 or so hp and 2,500 lbs like my MINI Cooper S would be about perfect.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Well, ideally I would like to see 200HP & 2600 lbs but I know that's asking A LOT for a Toyota. Since this is Toyota's first attempt of trying to get back into the entry RWD sports coupe market, I'll be willing to compromise on the specs (that's given if this is going to be MT standard).

    The new AE86 will be in a different category than the Elise. The Elise is pretty much a track-ready sports car which can go from 0 to 60 in like what 4 to 4.5 seconds? If I am not mistaken, the new AE86 should be good at handling but not super fast (around mid to high 6 secs). Given that the 205HP TSX weighed 3257 lbs (15.89 lbs/HP) can do 0-60 in low 7's I don't see why a RWD 200HP & 3000 lbs AE86 can't do better.

    I would like to see this entry RWD coupe to carry the Toyota badge because let's face it, Toyota really needs some help on the performance department. With the new AE86 and Supra Toyota should have a pretty decent lineup in the years to come.

    Scion on the other hand could use a mini cross-over, very much like the previous gen RAV4. tC is a decent enough sporty (hint: not sports) coupe for daddy's little girl or any boy racer wannabes who care more about the car's color than what's under the hood (believe me, there are A LOT of them out there).

    Lexus should drop the GX, up market the 2009 RX and introduce another cross-over slotted under the RX. It should be Lexus' X3/RDX/EX fighter. I think a 3 model SUV/CUV lineup is enough for Lexus for now. For the car front, beautify the next SC, introduce the LF-C and make an IS coupe should make it a pretty competitive lineup. As for the F division, besides the LF-C and IS-F, I would like to see at least another model called GS-F. Oh by the way, not to forget the most important...drop a manual tranny or at least DSG in the IS350 and IS-F for *bips* sake.
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Let's compromise at 200HP and 3000 lbs shall we.

    We are talking about Toyota here, give them a break...

    :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Is this the AE86 spiritual successor?

    http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/3197

    I'm all over the very first one in the mid-Atlantic if they can really produce an AWD roadster for under $17k. In fact I may have to buy 2 of them.

    Should not be a surprise that they would tap Subaru's talent to help build it, given they own about 9% of Subaru's parent company.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Give them a break? The last Celica, bowing out only a couple of years ago and equipped with all the modern safety equipment save side airbags, weighed in at 2500 pounds. Add a couple hundred pounds for a RWD drivetrain, and you are still WELL under 3000 pounds, as you ought to be. Mazda can do it with the RX-8, which has a real, useable back seat, so let's not hear Toyota asking for a break. Give ME a break! THAT would be the car I would want to see: a RWD coupe or small sedan pulling 200 hp from the underutilized Camry 2.4, selling in the low $20Ks (and badged a Toyota). There's no reason in the world they couldn't do it, but they won't. Instead, they will capitalize on the development of the GS-shrunk-to-IS-size platform and develop a car that's too heavy, then stick it with an engine with a needlessly high hp rating and cylinder count, just to save R&D costs. Even as their profits rise into the billions of dollars.

    And as far as the above discussion on Tundra incentives, it truly has reached the point of disgusting as high as they have gone. I understand why they have done it, to get into a market segment they weren't in before, but now that they can trumpet their 134% increase in sales vs last July, and are hitting and exceeding their (annualized) sales targets, we should see those incentives drop by half or more. Will we though? Not likely, is my prediction.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    IMO the AE86's spiritual successor would be a production model hotted up enough to be genuinely sporty. Unfortunately, all the current line-up are FWD, so the whole idea is almost a non-starter (they could take a current Corolla or Yaris and add the AWD from the last-gen Matrix and RAV4). Still, if this codeveloped project is a worthy successor to the Celica (could be better, as it will have AWD, but could also be too heavy), I will take it, what with the atmosphere at Toyota these days! :-/

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

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