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Toyota is on the Offensive. Will it work?

drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
edited August 2014 in Toyota
In tribute to the very successful GM discussion, a dicussion of the World's #1 brand is in order. Lovers and haters, please feel free to stop by and share. :blush:

Tundra and Prius are setting sales records. Camry sales are increasing at an almost alarming rate.

People are really satrting to look to Toyota Hybrids when gas prices shoot up.

Quality is down somewhat, but still ahead of the competition.

New competitors want to knock them off the top of the mountain.

Who can stop Toyota?

Can it be done?

Where will Toyota peak?

Who won't live to see the end of the battle?

DrFill
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Comments

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    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    To start off, Toyota is a living testament how an organization should be ran, especially given its size. I respect Toyota in many ways.

    Now to the details:

    Who can stop Toyota?

    Toyota.

    Camry sales are increasing at an almost alarming rate.

    To be accurate, the Camry sales are increasing with the inclusion of the hybrid model recently, otherwise, flat.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    :)

    Last time I checked, there is a Camry Hybrid.

    Hybrid power didn't help the Accord.

    So I'm not sure of the point thur. :confuse:

    DrFill
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Amusing title.

    You certainly have a point there. The Accord hybrid was one of those rare eggs that Honda laid. I'm somewhat surprised at that in that in gives a lot of bang for the mileage. I'm guessing that folks have pretty well decided that they want mpg over 0 - 60 when it comes to hybrids. In this case Toyota bet right and Honda didn't.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You feel me. :blush:

    How does the 2008 Accord fit into this? Will it slow down the Camry Love Train?

    Camry sales may reach 500k this year, the first time in decades a car has sold 500k in a single year.

    Tundra also has a chance to reach the once-thought outlandish goal of 200k in less than a full year. :surprise:

    DrFill
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you were following the Accord Hybrid discussion prior to and after the fall, you would know that most posters were negative about Honda using the V6 to gain power rather than mileage. Toyota may or may not have picked up on that. They did the smart thing building the TCH with the 4 cylinder engine. And it is a popular car. If Toyota had gone for the HP rather than the economy as they did with the HH, Camry sales would not be where they are today. If you have a typical dealership you know how hard it is to unload a Highlander Hybrid. The ones on the lots here are advertised at below invoice. The RX400h is more popular because the wealthier buyers do not really care as much about mileage as performance and that GREEN feeling they get.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    It will be very interesting to see what happens with the 08 Accord.

    It does seem that Honda is taking the approach of not wanting to lose face on what they perceive as the failure of the Accord Hybrid. They'll put out an Accord and then a separate Accord-like vehicle called something else in hybrid form.

    Now I am one who favors the Accord over the Camry usually but I think it will be a long time before we ever see the Accord outselling the Camry again.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If Honda makes good on their promise of a 2009 diesel Accord, I think they will gain back much lost ground. The diesel Accord has the potential for close to 50 MPG on the highway. It will directly compete against all the Camry models including the hybrid.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Americans take to diesel the way they've taken to hybrids.

    It has taken Toyota several years to get to this point with Hybrid acceptance.

    I haven't seen any evidence that sales are increasing for diesel power, outside of full-size pick-ups. :(

    DrFill
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Easy enough to say because at the moment there aren't any diesel cars to buy.

    I suspect that as the new diesels come in people are going to change their minds about them. Will they take to them like they are taking to hybrids? I don't know. To me the attractiveness of the diesel is that the technology has been around for ages, there's no ton of batteries in it and you don't have to teach yourself to drive exactly the opposite of how you normally do.

    I actually welcome the competition. When somebody puts out a diesel hybrid that generates more energy than it consumes I'm there!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    VW does have the Jetta TDI

    And Mercedes has BlueTec

    And jeep had the Liberty CRD.

    I haven't gotten news of any stampedes for those vehicles.

    If anyone can do it, Honda can, doh. ;)

    I believe Diesels will take off here, but not until 2010 or beyond, when GM releases their 4.5L that goes into the Silverado and Hummer. Dodge will have a smaller Cummins for the 2009 Dodge Ram as well.

    The full-size trucks will start to rely on diesels in the future, and that push should trickle down at some point.

    DrFill
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    diesel hybrid that generates more energy than it consumes I'm there!

    That sounds like perpetual motion. Sign me up for some of that too. :shades:

    I don't have much interest in a diesel (maybe a little VW pickup) and if I'm going to haul batteries around, I'd almost rather have an all electric car and skip the gas or diesel entirely. Or just engage the gas on long trips (I think Toyota is looking at this idea already).

    Toyota is doing a bunch of battery research so hopefully someone will make a breakthrough. Batteries really aren't there yet I don't think.
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    fezofezo Member Posts: 10,384
    Yeah, I hear that it just what Toyota is working on. In theory at least it would mean if I had one like that my commute would never use any gasoline at all. I could live with that.

    Indeed - there will be a big breakthrough on batteries. Whoever figures it out will make a fortune.
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Will be the future, but Toyota will wait until they are 100% sure it is ready.

    Honda may beat them to the punch, as is their way.

    Toyota is ready to bet the farm on Hybrids, so they will be more cautious.

    The 2009 Prius will still be Nickel. ;)

    DrFill
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    steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    There was some negative press about lithium ions and Toyota recently but I'm positive they are still charging away at it. ;)

    Lithium-ion-powered Toyota Prius put on hold (Straightline)
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Full sized trucks are already selling 40% diesel from the Big 3. If the cars were available in all 50 states they would have good sales. The diesel VWs are sold at MSRP most of the time. Mercedes is doing very well in 45 states with their 4 diesel vehicles.
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    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    We are on the same page (for once ;) ), I think. Anyway, I did mention the Camry hybrid.

    I pointed out the Camry sales was largely helped by the new hybrid model. If you subtract out the Camry hybrid sales, the regular Camry (and I think Toyota includes the Solara too), you would see the net results similar to last year's, of the same period.

    Hybrid power didn't help the Accord.

    Personally I think V6 and hybrid doesn't glue too well together. I am glad Honda is dropping the hybrid and coming out with the diesel entry.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Critics want to spin this so it's like Toyota is building exploding batteries or something.

    Sony has also had problems implimenting the sensetive batteries, too.

    Obviously the batteries aren't up to Toyota's standards yet, and they are working on it.

    As successful as the Prius is, would you rush a replacement to market? :blush:

    DrFill
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think most here consider Toyota smart to back off on Li-Ion. I for one do not think it will ever be the answer. Something else will come along. Until then the NiMH will have to carry the hybrid load. So far they are doing fine.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Their PR dept sure is keeping it on the down low! :(

    Jetta sales are down 6%.

    I think sales would be rising if diesel was in demand over at VW, considering gas prices. Just my opinion.

    I believe Mercedes is having better luck.

    DrFill
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    Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    You kinda can't argue with success:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=arCITDsM1kRw&refer=home

    Visiting Host
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    Sure you can it just isn't very successful.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You know where the party's at! :shades:

    GM and Dodge are in no rush to release detailed sales figures.

    I'd be interested in how the Silverado and Ram did, with Tundra taking another large leap in sales, from 13k to 17k to 21k. :surprise:

    I know Ford did 65k.

    If you walk onto a Honda lot, do you see Accords stickering for less than $20k?

    DrFill
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Where is the profit margin if you have to give such big incentives to sell the Tundra? Its not working at So CA dealers. They are gorged with Tundra trucks sitting unsold. Oh, I forgot Toyota counts them as sold once the dealer takes possession. A convenient way to spin the sales figures. We put 21k Tundra vehicles on our dealers flooring. Of course they only sold a few of them. How many Toyota dealers in the USA? I know the one close to me has at least 30 Tundra trucks lining the lot that faces the street. Maybe a $5k rebate, 0% financing as long as you like and Toyota will make the payments. That would be a fair deal. :shades:
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    dtownfbdtownfb Member Posts: 2,918
    Actually gagrice, I'm pretty sure most car manufacturers count their car sales this way. It is not just Toyota.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Actually I have no idea. Someone today posted that Toyota and Honda count the vehicles when shipped. Maybe someone has some real data to back that up one way or another. If there are 1500 dealers with 10 of a model sitting unsold that is a lot of claimed sales. You would think that the automakers have an up to the minute sales figure from the dealer network. It is not rocket science. There has to be millions of unsold vehicles sitting on dealers lots all over the USA. Those should not be included in monthly sales figures.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    In regards to making sales, as Ford can't lose share fast enough. The domestics are legendary for their shenanigans when it comes to sold vs. registrations vs reporting dates.

    Are you saying Toyota is inventing some way of counting deals no other maker is using?

    You know Toyota is making money on more of their trucks anyway, as you WILL NOT find a Tundra for less than $20k, no matter if there is $3k or $4k on the hood.

    Toyota itself, above and beyond invoice, is probably making $3-4 a unit anyway. Pickups trucks are one of the best ways for a company to actually make money selling vehicles. They're cash cows, that's why the domestics are so defensive about them.

    GM is already counter-marketing against Tundra in their new commercials. ;)

    That profit should increase after this year, when the 5.7/suspension/platform is spread throughout Toyotadom.

    DrFill
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    In a perfect world, probably not.

    I can't verify if that is the case, but if it were, as far as they are concerned, the vehicle is as good as sold.

    Toyota will never see that vehicle again, except in service. The dealer WILL retail that vehicle. They are paying insurance on it.

    Don't think Toyota takes "We Owe" on delivery. :P

    DrFill
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    joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Their PR dept sure is keeping it on the down low!

    Jetta sales are down 6%.

    I think sales would be rising if diesel was in demand over at VW, considering gas prices. Just my opinion.

    I believe Mercedes is having better luck.


    Jetta's diesel entry is coming back for 2008MY. Diesel is not available for 2007MY.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Diesels can't gain traction, because they have to constantly adjust to emissions standards, not to mention performance standards and economy standards.

    2 years on, 1 year off, is no way to build a following.

    Most companies would go under if they worked 2-3 years, then took a year off.

    Hard to build a business case for that. A lot of money has been lost on the diesel engine. At least in cars. :sick:

    DrFill
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    oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Toyota is no different than ALL other automakers--vehicles are counted as "sold" when they're shipped to dealers.
    All manufacturers of consumer goods have to do the same thing.
    Technically and fiscally, they are "sold"--to the retailers.
    Govt. tax and revenue reporting rules mandate that policy.
    It has nothing whatsoever to do with "spin" as you inferred.

    Insofar as "profit margins" on Tundra incentives are concerned, it's a common business practice--and often a very effective strategy in new model releases-- amongst ALL automakers to grab share by discounting MRSP.

    I wouldn't be too quick to judge that practice as somehow indicative of flagging sales, nor would I suggest seeing lots full of Tundras as a sign either.
    Have you visited any Ford, GM, Chrysler lots lately?? Check out the inventories there before making any such claims--especially pickups. All Big3 pickup sales are really hurting.

    If you want to see huge backlogged inventories, we went to Windsor Ontario Canada where the Chrysler minivan plant is the other day. The entire airport in that city is full of parked and unsold minivans, cars, and pickup trucks--about 2000 acres worth of vehicles. Incredible!! And that's only one of several other large properties where these unsold products are sitting in that City. I couldn't believe it!!

    And Chrysler offers huge discounts, and has been for several years--they're losing money every time they sell several of their models!! That's one of the main reason why Mercedes firesaled the company!!

    Some advice--don't be too quick to pass judgement before doing the research.

    Incidentally, gas prices there were over $1.00 PER LITRE!! (As high as $1.12 at some places)
    That's over $4.00 per GALLON equivalent in the US!!
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I repeat, it was posted here on Edmund's that Toyota and Honda consider vehicles sold when they are delivered to the dealers. Why? is the question I asked. I have seen massive amounts of inventory on many lots of several makes. To me if a auto maker says they sold 15k cars of a certain model and they are sitting on the dealers lot, that is a LIE. Are you telling me that if a dealer has 1000 cars in his inventory and goes broke they will not end up back with the auto maker? I realize the dealer is paying interest on those vehicles until they are SOLD. That is the key word, SOLD. When any automaker publishes their sales figures it should be for vehicles that were delivered to a consumer. If you have data that shows that all auto makers figure sales the same way it would be useful. I was led to believe it is only Toyota and Honda that do this devious sales spin.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Now to the spin on the Tundra and the big incentives to get rid of the inventory.

    Being a long time fan of GM trucks I have endured the diatribe of Edmund's posters for YEARS on the GM threads. Every time GM would have a slow month, and incentives were offered, I would see the same old crap. Now when it is a turn around and the almighty Toyota is giving HUGE incentives to unload their Tundra trucks, it is a smart move. If that is the case I guess it was a smart move on the parts of the Big 3 when they have offered incentives to move iron. The pro Toyota majority here would like to have it their way only. If you want to be part of that imbalance feel free to do so. I am here so the scales are not always tilted against the Big 3. GM still sells a LOT more vehicles in the USA than Toyota.

    PS
    Ford still sells more here than Toyota.
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    british_roverbritish_rover Member Posts: 8,502
    oyota is no different than ALL other automakers--vehicles are counted as "sold" when they're shipped to dealers.
    All manufacturers of consumer goods have to do the same thing.
    Technically and fiscally, they are "sold"--to the retailers.
    Govt. tax and revenue reporting rules mandate that policy.
    It has nothing whatsoever to do with "spin" as you inferred.


    Err I know we do not count cars that are sold just if they arrive on our lot. Only vehicles that are punched RDRed get counted as sold to Land Rover.

    That number includes service loaners used for the dealership that are RDRed with the warranty clock starting.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    They only intended to make/sell 200k this year, which is less than 17k a month. Toyota has beaten that twice already after only 4 months.

    It seems Toyota is looking to take advantage of high traffic, a soft truck market, and some older competition, and strike while the iron is hot.

    Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt because giving away the store is not the Toyota Way. Ford will give you the store, balloons and all.

    Toyota has to change their game (lower their profit margin) in order to play in the domestics sand box. Domestic fans can't throw stones at Toyota on this one. :P

    It has become The Only Way to sell full-sized trucks to Americans. :sick:

    DrFill
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    1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    The numbers are in:

    http://www.ft.com/cms/s/f665075e-2996-11dc-a530-000b5df10621.html

    Light car sales: Toyota up 10%, GM down 21%.
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/07/04/054081.html

    Dodge Ram hangs tough, while both new GM trucks are down!

    DrFill
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt because giving away the store is not the Toyota Way. Ford will give you the store, balloons and all.

    Why would that be? If they are selling as you say they are, why do they have to offer a $3000 incentive on the supposedly very popular CrewMax. Chevy only gives $2500 on their crew cab PU Trucks.

    So you are saying they are giving up profit on the PU trucks and making it back on the Prius? That would be offensive. Unload the gas guzzlers and screw the consumers that want a green ride. Now I see the Toyota game plan....
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    oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "If you have data that shows that all auto makers figure sales the same way it would be useful".

    Sorry, them's the rules ALL manufacturers have to abide by.

    If "show me the proof" is what you're asking, just speak to any Chartered Accountant.
    It shouldn't be necessary to show proof, because after being in the manufacturing business I do know how the system works.
    So do most, if not all business people.

    Like it or not, those rules apply to all of us.

    Not trying to bamboozle you--just tellin' it like it is because your post was misleading and could create the wrong impression.

    Similarly, when product arrives at a retailer, it's considered by the universal accounting system as "inventory" by that reailer until "sold", and then reported as "sold" in his accounting system.

    Two different businesses (Manufacturer and Retailer) and two different accounting sytems, but they both must abide by the same rules.

    If you don't agree with the system, then talk to the govt. to get it changed. Good luck ;)
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    oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    "Now to the spin on the Tundra and the big incentives to get rid of the inventory."

    That was no spin--It suggested that incentives (particularly on new model intros) is a common ploy by automakers.
    That's a well known fact--there's no "spin" there, and I'm wondering why it was considered as such?? :confuse:
    Perhaps we should talk about those "big incentives to get rid of inventory".
    Is that "spin", or is there some info out there that the rest of us aren't privy to?

    Moving right along, let's talk about this gaffe: "The pro Toyota majority here would like to have it their way only. If you want to be part of that imbalance feel free to do so. I am here so the scales are not always tilted against the Big 3. GM still sells a LOT more vehicles in the USA than Toyota."

    I'm not so much pro Toyota as "pro honesty in print".
    Heck, I don't even own one--but I sure would consider one if I was looking--they make fine vehicles.
    FYI, one of our vehicles is an 06 Silverado--and there will be an 08 soon. I like GM too BTW. Have owned GM pickups for over 35 years.

    I just think if one criticizes the competition, there should be at least some truth to statements made about issues like sales and policies.
    No problem expressing one's dislike of a particular product, but as you say "let's keep some balance", don't post things about the automaker that aren't true.
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Well I am getting conflicting stories here. I have one dealer saying vehicles are not considered sold by the manufacturer until they are sold. And you are saying otherwise. You refer to rules with no link. That is not very helpful.

    As a side note. It is good that Toyota is doing well here in the USA. They have gone down hill every month for the last 24 months at home. They are the biggest percentage losers in Japan as of June 2007. Down 12.9% in June. Maybe the Japanese are not as forgiving as Americans for lack of quality control.

    Toyota losing ground
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    oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    You are confusing the issue.

    You had a dealer (or someone employed by a dealer) say a vehicle isn't considered "sold" until it leaves the dealership as "sold".
    That's a true statement.
    It is an accounting rule all dealers abide by. It applies to that specific business.

    Key point: The dealership is an independent retailer"

    Another key point: "The Manufacturer is an independent manufacturing business"

    THEY ARE TWO INDEPENDENT BUSINESSES!!!!!!!!!!!

    I agree, let's keep the scales balanced, and stick to the reality of accounting rules, instead of only questioning that side of the issue which supports our position.

    For the record, here's the full text of that report on sales in Japan (Just to keep the scales balanced):

    TOKYO (Dow Jones)--Japan's domestic sales of new cars, trucks and buses fell 11.2% on year in June, declining for the 24th straight month, an industry body said Monday.

    Sales in June totaled 291,640 vehicles, the Japan Automobile Dealers' Association said.

    Auto sales, as measured by registrations of vehicles with the government, are closely monitored by economists because they are the first consumer spending numbers released each month. The figures don't include sales of mini-cars or mini-trucks.

    By brand, Daihatsu Motor Co. (7262.TO), a subsidiary of Toyota Motor Corp. (7203.TO), posted the biggest percentage fall in the month with a drop of 70.4%, followed by Nissan Diesel, a unit of Volvo AB (VOLV), with a fall of 39.7%.

    Among the top three brands, Toyota's sales fell 12.9%, Honda Motor Co.'s (7267.TO) declined 8.2%, and Nissan Motor Co.'s (7201.TO) were down 6.3%.

    -By Hiroyuki Kachi, Dow Jones Newswires, 813-5255-2929, hiroyuki.kachi@dowjones.com

    (END) Dow Jones Newswires

    July 02, 2007 01:32 ET (05:32 GMT)
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I am not sure of your point. My search for an answer brought me to the Japanese auto sales story. As clearly stated in that story auto sales figures are for vehicles sold to the consumer.

    Auto sales, as measured by registrations of vehicles with the government, are closely monitored by economists

    IF you are correct, that manufactured vehicles are the sales figures we are fed. I want to know how many Tundra trucks were sold to consumers in June. Not how many Toyota dumped on their dealers.

    On this thread we are discussing Toyota and their offensive posturing and the outcome. How can we tell if it is working, if we do not know how many vehicles are sold to consumers in a month, quarter or year? The industry likes to point out how many days a model sits on the lot. Any figures for the Tundra as to days sitting on the lot?
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    oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    I am not sure of your point.

    I'm not sure of your objective, your point, where you're going with this discussion, or what you're trying to prove with all of this nonsense.
    I simply clarified earlier that in this country, auto sales stats are tracked by ALL manufacturers from when vehicles leave the plant and arrive at the dealer.
    Dealers BUY these cars from the plant. That's the way it works. That's how they report sales stats, whether you agree with it or not.
    What on earth is so hard to understand?

    I simply posted that information that because your earlier statement was that only Toyota and Honda do it that way, and somehow the implication was they are being dishonest.
    Well guess what--ALL manufacturers do it that way here.
    Your post was wrong.

    Now you're hanging your hat on some obscure piece of information from a news agency in Japan to prove whatever your point is..............?
    Well, maybe they do things different in Japan, who knows---and who cares? It has little or no bearing on how things are done here.

    Furthermore, your efforts seemed to be directed at getting info about Tundra pickups--yet for some reason this discussion has gotten hung up on Toyota sales in Japan.
    Tundras aren't sold in Japan, from what I understand.

    So..................What next??
    Maybe we can verify with tangible proof that "Toyota dumped all those Tundra pickups on their dealers?" ;)
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    "let's keep some balance", don't post things about the automaker that aren't true.

    What did I post that was not true? You left out my point and used what you wanted to make your argument sound valid.

    I will state it a little clearer then.

    Why is it OK for the pro Toyota posters to make derogatory remarks about Big 3 incentives and then jump on someone that makes comment on Toyota passing out big incentives? None of what I said was untrue. If this is their big OFFENSIVE so be it. It is no different than when GM offers incentives on a vehicle.

    It is my opinion that Toyota is not above crunching numbers to have sales figures look better than they really are. If you would like data from Toyota that will prove my point, read this very carefully. We will see how astute you are at picking out the "SPIN" in this Toyota sales report.

    http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2007/07/03-1-sales.html
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    drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Toyota isn't just going against GM, but Ford and Chrysler have major incentives too. At this point, I don't think it matters between $3k and $3500. You are gonna get a huge discount, so pick the truck you want to drive.

    Considering the Prius is pretty close to sticker, Toyota may be ata small profit.

    I doubt Toyota is "losing money" on the Tundra, but profits aren't high for any maker at this point.

    DrFill
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    oldguy70oldguy70 Member Posts: 97
    Nice article. Thanks for bringing it forward.
    Any good news in the automotive sector is nice to hear these days.
    Didn't see any "spin" that isn't typical of how any of the other automakers present their news--so where is it innacurate?
    Where are the numbers looking better than they really are?? And compared to what "real" numbers??

    BTW, I'm still unsure where you're going with all this.
    I never made any derogatory remarks about Toyota or any other automaker's incentives, and I don't think anyone else did either.
    So what's the problem?
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    gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    If you read the sales report carefully you would see that the writer only gives the percentages if they are positive. If the model is not selling better than the previous period they just state the number of units. To me that is not a balanced report of sales. I am sure the stockholders would like to know which models are not performing well. Don't you agree?

    I never made any derogatory remarks about Toyota or any other automaker's incentives, and I don't think anyone else did either.

    I never said you made any derogatory remarks. There are 1000s of examples in this forum of derogatory remarks about other makes of cars. I know you have read some. You were one of the participants in the Toyota vs Hyundai thread that was put to rest. If you think that the pro Toyota posters are not capable of half truths etc, about other makes you need to read deeper into the forum. Here is a very recent statement in this very thread against another maker. I am sure you read it.

    Toyota gets the benefit of the doubt because giving away the store is not the Toyota Way. Ford will give you the store, balloons and all.

    I have no problem with that defense of Toyota. I do feel I have the right to make a counter point to his statement.

    If a forum was strictly facts and no opinion it would soon die of boredom. I am not sure that anything posted over the last 50 comments is irrefutable FACT. It is all conjecture and opinion by just a few of us posters. I will assume the numbers given by Toyota in their News blurb are somewhat accurate even though they are mixed with half truths.
This discussion has been closed.