Gagrice--what IS your problem?? I qualified my post as only a "guess". I stated clearly that "I'm no expert" on why diesels aren't selling here. I also qualified my remarks about those characteristics as "perceptions". That's what they are!! There was no need for any level of aggressivness. There was no need for such a put down. Actually the whole thing WAS "balanced and unbiased!!" Furthermore it's not germaine to the topic of this forum. That said, are you familiar with just how many grades of diesel are on the market today?
Yes I am very familiar with the variables offered in diesel across the USA.
I just felt your post was very negative. Just my perception. You are correct we are way off from the topic of this thread. So I will apologize if I was offensive to you.
I think diesels will finally start making an impact here. I'm looking at a new C-Class (2008 model), but thinking I'll wait until I can get a 320CDI Bluetec (hopefully a 4Matic). Its crazy to buy a gas model which gets 10MPG less, and the cost diff is only going to be $1000. Plus the performance is very comparable.
This is a surprising stat I found for June incentives:
the Japanese automaker offered no-interest loans and other incentives amounting to $5,083 per pickup, according to auto data firm Edmunds.com.
"The only large truck with a higher level of incentives in June than the Tundra was the (Dodge) Ram," said Alex Rosten, manager of pricing and market analysis at Edmunds.com. "Everybody else was lower."
I'm no expert on why cars with diesels aren't great sellers here, but my guesses as to reasons why are as follows:
They smell bad. They're noisy. They smoke. Not as many fuel stations carry diesel, and access is less than gasoline. Diesel fuel right now isn't much cheaper than gasoline--in fact at some places it's more. People don't understand them, and associate them with big rigs.
Take a trip to Europe and everywhere else where diesels are offered in larger quantities.
FWIW, VW has had success with its TDIs here, despite the stricter emission rules.
Along that same line I was facing a new Tundra and Dodge Ram PU today. If you were to swap the Bull and Ram emblem you would not be able to tell those two apart. So it is fitting the two ugliest trucks in America have to pay folks to buy them. :shades:
In all honesty I have not liked the looks of ANY truck since the change Chevy made about 2002. I bought the GMC Sierra because it is the Least ugly in my eyes. I blame Dodge for starting the Ugly look in trucks. I would NEVER buy a Dodge for that reason. Give me the 1990s Chevy look and I am happy. May have to get rid of this GMC and do just that.
I thought it was Toyota that was offering 0% for 60 months and $5k incentives on all their Tundras. It don't get much better than that if you need a truck and don't have the cash. Even if you have the cash you can put it in the money market and use Toyota money for free. Now that is a Woo Hoo.
"Take a trip to Europe and everywhere else where diesels are offered in larger quantities".
Thanks for the advice. As noted in the post you quoted, we lived in France for three years in the 90s, and actually owned a diesel car. Travelled quite extensively while there, and yes, diesels are very popular. Diesel fuel is available at most stations--much more prevailent than here. Not too long ago we spent several months in South America. I didn't see nearly as many diesel vehicles in use there though. Ditto for Australia and New Zealand--but in the Orient they're very common.
Daddy doesn't need any help from his son on that count. Big Al is doing just fine in the hypocrite department all by himself.
Too bad about his son though. He's making some very poor decisions. I mean, anyone with a buttload of illicit drugs who sails down a SoCal freeway at over 100mph is begging for attention.
i dont like the way tundra looks...i think the f150 is the best looking truck..i have never liked the way toyotas look ...but maybe the big 3 are catching up in quality
The incentives are locally adjusted but I believe that this is representative. From CAT in July it's...
$2500 on all Tundra's, except Reg Cab's where it's $3000. or 0% for 60 months.
The dealer can sell the vehicle for whatever price he wants.
Toyota got their 'ramp-up' in gear last month. As one of the larger ones we got hit with 3 month's supply altogether. Where we had one or none of most models/options now we have two or three of each. But we are still far from being stocked 'normally'. Consider the possible permutations and combinations.
31 configurations X 11 colors X multiple package options ( say 5 ) = that's over 1700 possible combinations. Even with 200-300 trucks in inventory we are certain to miss 80% of the requests made by the public.
To be realistic and to keep things managable some configurations don't offer all the colors or options so the total might be only 1000 different variations. At a constant 300 unit inventory we still miss 2/3 of the requests.
A prius will go 125 MPH if you drop it from a cliff. Isn't that the terminal velocity of any object dropped? We could try it with Al Gore jr and sr in the car.
Say what you want about the Prius but it just became the hottest car of the weekend. I've had a bunch of people interested in it. Sold one that I can't seem to get from anyone so I had to convince the customer to get a second color choice. Got another one riding tonight and coming back tomorrow to do the delivery. I also noticed some of my colleagues working deals on them tonight. :P Mackabee
The question is: Can Toyota build a transmission that will give good service? Upon further research on the Office of Defects site I found 73 reports of transmission related problems in the new Camry, some still unresolved. Here are a couple samples and the NHTSA site for you to do your own research.
HISTORY: AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION BEGAN FLARING WHEN COLD AFTER PUTTING AROUND 400 MILES ON THE NEW CAR -- GEAR WOULDN'T "CATCH" AND WOULD SKIP GEARS; IN SHOP FOR TSB TO CORRECT PROBLEM, BUT DIDN'T CORRECT IT; IN SHOP AGAIN TO REPLACE TRANSMISSION SINCE CORPORATE CLAIMED THAT WOULD FOR SURE CORRECT FLARING PROBLEM; ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS RESULTING FROM NEW TRANNY INCLUDING STRANGE WHOOSHING NOISE ON DRIVER SIDE, JERKINESS WHEN CHANGING GEARS, AND HESITATION WHEN ACCELERATING; BACK TO SHOP TO CORRECT; SHOP WAS ABLE TO REMOVE WHOOSHING NOISE, BUT JERKINESS REMAINED AND FLARING CONTINUED ALBEIT AT DIFFERENT TIMES THAN IT DID BEFORE. FAILURE AND CONSEQUENCES: AFTER STOPPING AT A STOP LIGHT, TRIED TO MAKE LEFT-HAND TURN TO JOIN THE INTERSTATE MERGE LANE, BUT CAR WOULD NOT SUPPLY ENOUGH POWER DESPITE BEING IN DRIVE AND PUSHING ON THE ACCELERATOR APPROPRIATELY; BARELY MADE IT ACROSS THE INTERSECTION BEFORE HAVING TO PULL OVER TO SHOULDER TO STOP, PUT ON HAZARD LIGHTS, AND LET OTHER INTERSTATE TRAFFIC GET BY; THEORIZING THAT THE TRANSMISSION PROBABLY GOT STUCK IN WHATEVER GEAR THE CAR WAS IN AS I APPROACHED THE STOP LIGHT (3RD OR 2ND) AND THEN DIDN'T APPROPRIATELY DOWNSHIFT ITSELF TO GET UP TO POWER COMING FROM A COMPLETE STOP AT THE STOP LIGHT TO CROSS THE INTERSECTION; BECAUSE THE CARS BEHIND ME WERE PAYING ATTENTION AND ROADS FREE OF ICE AND THEY SAW THAT THE CAR WAS NOT ABLE TO GET UP TO SPEED, I WAS LUCKY NOT TO BE REAR ENDED. WHAT WAS DONE TO CORRECT FAILURE: BECAUSE IT'S BEEN IN THE SHOP 5 TIMES FOR BAD TRANSMISSION, NOT SURE WHAT THEY'LL DO TO CORRECT IT -- THAT IS PENDING. WILL LIKELY REQUEST BUY BACK DUE TO SAFETY CONCERNS AND APPARENT INABILITY TO CORRECT UNDERLYING TRANSMISSION PROBLEMS
WE PURCHASED AN 07 CAMRY NOV 06. AT 7,000 MILES IT STARTED SLIPPING, NOT ACCELERATING. WE TOOK TO DEALER. THEY RESET MEMORY. DIDN'T HELP. TOOK A SECOND TIME, RESET MEMORY, DIDN'T HELP. WENT THROUGH ARBITRATOR, DIDN'T HELP. THE CAR IS UNSAFE TO DRIVE. WHEN IT NEEDS TO ACCELERATE, IT DOESN'T. I WAS ALMOST HIT BY A SEMI. TOYOTA IS AWARE OF A DEFECT IN THE COMPUTER CHIP, BUT WON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. PLEASE HELP ME AND THE OTHER 07 CAMRY OWNERS BEFORE AN ACCIDENT OCCURS WHICH COULD POSSIBLY BE FATAL. ITS NOT A MATTER OF IF AN ACCIDENT WILL OCCUR, BUT A MATTER OF WHEN. WE ARE ALSO GETTING BAD GAS MILEAGE DUE TO THE DEFECT
Does Toyota put pressure on companies like Aisin of Japan to give them preferential treatment with parts in short supply? According to Ford they do. Sounds Offensive to me.
Ford faces shortages of crucial parts from components manufacturers -- which are longtime suppliers, and in some cases affiliates, of Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., the leaders in hybrids.
Ford suspects it may be getting squeezed out by its Japanese rivals. With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.
"Aisin, which is minority-controlled by Toyota, has interesting shareholders they have to answer to," said Mary Ann Wright, director of Ford's hybrid programs research and advanced engineering.
Toyota has a minor interest. And a big stick. The Aisin Ford is referring to is in Japan where the rules are different than here. It sounds like Toyota was able to cripple the Ford attempt to expand their hybrid program. How would you interpret this case of Toyota bullying tactics.
I think Toyota owns (ok, controls) "most" of Aisin. Toyota owns most of Aisin AW for sure. Aisin Seiki is 23% owned by Toyota Motor and Toyota Industries' share brings them up to almost 30%. The rest seems spread around a bunch of banks, but I'd be surprised to learn that Toyota doesn't control the company. Aisin Seiki also owns Aisin USA. (link)
Being a supplier to auto industry is an ugly business. I was there for 20 yrs. At one point in the early 90's GM had the reputation of taking bids on a part, then taking the best technology from one supplier, giving it to the other bidders and saying 'Do this make it less costly' then going back to the original designer and saying 'XYZ took your design and came in with this bid, beat it if you want to keep the business'. Oh, and you have to sign an agreement to cut costs by 5% per annum for the life of the contract.
We were supplying a GM plant through Magna International. Magna had a 5 minute window to make it's deliveries. It was given a 6 month, 3 month, 30 day, 1 week and 1 day schedule. If it missed its 5 minute window and risked closing GM's line it was fined $3000/minute.
Our steel came from Germany and France. At one time we supplied all the exterior parts for the Cherokees, most of the Mustang doors and fender and the Crown Vic roof panels plus all the heat shields for all Chryslers. At one point the US Govt assessed potential penalties on all imported steel of $200-$400 per metric ton. We had to go to each and tell them that their prices were going to jump 10-20% overnight. They said 'No, eat the penalties.' We said No and walked away after some heated discussion which left them without a supplier. At one point I was barred from entering Chrysler's HQ in Auburn Hills.
This is ironic given today's environment. In that 80'-90's period the US Steel industry was going through what the US domestic auto industry is going through now. The biggest single customers for the steel makers were GM / F / C. Well the steel makers had been fat and happy since the end of WWII and had done nothing to improve technology. Some plants in Pittsburgh were the very same ones built by Andrew Carnegie at the turn of the century. Processes done at our plants in France and Germany by computer were still being done by hand at some US Steel plants. The Big 3 told the steel industry to invest and to improve quality; specifically in computer-controlled operations and to implement the use of SPC across the board and become ISO 9000 certified .... or else all the business would be given to the Japanese, French and German steel makers. The American steel industry said it didn't have the money to modernize so one by one they dropped off the map.
Then the steel makers got the US Govt to assess dumping penalties against the Japanese, French and German steel makers leaving them alone in this market. So they jacked their prices to the Big 3 by 50-100%. Payback time.
Then Nucor, Steel Dynamics and other US minimills came into existence and put the old dinosaurs to death. Only US Steel survives as it was. The others all died off or were absorbed or sold by larger companies.
The company I used to work for was about 1/3 the size of US steel when I began there in 1977 now it's the largest in the world and about 5 times bigger than US Steel.
It is a good history lesson for us. I also understand we supplied the Japanese steel industry with the latest technology at the end of the war. Did that not come around to bite us in the rear?
My point in all this is Toyota is NOT a big warm cuddly GREEN teddy bear. Many uninformed people seem to think so. The hybrid technology is dribbled out so that no other company can make a profit. I am not sure they would get away with what they are doing in the USA.
Another offensive issue: Toyota builds dirty diesels and sells them all over the world. They sell a few hybrids in the US to give off a Green glow that fades rather quickly when seen in the light of the facts.
What you mean by "hybrid technology is dribbled out so that no other company can make a profit"? Didn't Toyota invented their own hybrid technology? I think you got the fact screw up. Aisin doesn't produce the hybrid technology that Ford wants to buy, they merely produce the transmission. The Toyota hybrid synergy drive has no relationship what-so-ever to Ford's. It's just too bad that Ford has to rely on a heavily Toyota-influenced company for their transmission supply.
It's also sad that many people bought into the idea that Toyota is a "Green" company. I personally never thought it that way. They are just another huge corporation not unlike GM and Ford and out on their way to make as much profit as possible. The only thing different is that Toyota makes better products than rest of the field IMO. Do I care who is the "Greenest" company? Not really. Do I want to buy the best product with my hard earn money? You betcha.
Agreed it's a big business that fights tooth and nail for every advantage just as the Big 3 did vs the Domestic steel industry, and the US steel makers did against the imported steel sellers and then the US steel industry did against the Big 3 and then the mini-mills did against the integrated steel producers here and as most Big Companies do to their small suppliers.
You must throw your weight around whenever you have an advantage because if you don't then when the other guy has the advantage he'll kick your butt up and down the street...and all you can do is roll with the kicks.
Toyota fronted the money for all the Hybrid tech we now want to enjoy. And Toyota offered to sell units to Ford, GM, everybody. Nissan was the only one who took them up on it.
If Toyota wants Aisin to play hardball with a Johnny-come-lately, too bad! :P
Since When am I supposed to feel sorry for Ford?
If they want something done right, they should do it themselves.
Ford and Gm are better at making enemies out of suppliers than building relationships, so who's fault is that?
Navistar hates them, and they are actually in front of the diesel market. So when Navistar is supplying Toyota with super diesels in 3 years, who should we blame for Ford's troubles then? :confuse:
I don't wanna hear any excuses for Ford's problems. They have no idea what they're doing!
That is how I understood it happened as well. Ford and Toyota ended up developing some technology independently that overlapped so they made an agreement about that technology to keep both companies from having to go to court for years.
Pretty smart actually. It was obvious that they tow companies just happened down similar paths at the same time and there was no theft of technology. Instead of wasting millions of dollars in legal fees and getting the lawyers richer just come to a licensing agreement.
1. Ford did pay Toyota to avoid any conflict with the two hybrid systems. 2. Toyota is still tied up in litigation that claims Toyota stole the PSD design from another company. That will be decided in a German court of law. 3. I say good riddance to Navistar and their POC diesel engines. I can understand Ford wanting to get out of the deal. They are nothing but trouble. We had four of the latest series in Alaska and at least one was always in the shop. It would be fitting that Toyota gets those engines. I would call it Karma.
Oh, and the Japanese government put up a big chunk of money to develop the hybrid system.
I agree with the Navistar engines. I had nothing but trouble with those engines when I worked in service. The Duramax and Cummins motors were vastly superior.
Ford doesn't need Navistar/International anymore. The diesel engine they have developed on their own with Land Rover/Jaguar in Europe can be a superior engine to the Powerstroke.
The 6.0 powerstroke motor makes 325 hp @ 3,300 rpms and 570 torque @ 2,000 rpms. It is also an all iron motor so very, very heavy.
The 3.6 liter TDV8 in the New Range Rover would make around 273 hp on the SAE standard @ 4,000 RPMs and 472 torque @ 2,000 rpms. It has aluminum heads and a CGI(Compressed Graphite Iron) Block so it will be much lighter then the powerstroke. It is a very small diesel compared to the powerstroke and I am sure it could be stretched another liter or more in displacement.
A 4.6 liter or 4.8 liter TDV8, keeping everything else equal, should make at least as much hp and torque as the powerstroke with better fuel economy.
NOW is the time to be having misgivings about the Navistar. They're building a new truck and ad campaign around this engine. Another example of poor management.
Customers can't be that unhappy, since 40% of F-seires sales have the PowerStroke.
People want diesel trucks is the reason they sell 40% at Ford. Ford gas engines are total gas hogs. Dodge sells an even higher percentage. My local Dodge dealer said his sales were close to 70% diesel in the 3/4 and 1 ton PU trucks. International (Navistar) has always played catchup to the Cummins & Duramax engines.
The new one sounds like a good reason for Ford to split the sheets with Navistar.
Comments
I qualified my post as only a "guess".
I stated clearly that "I'm no expert" on why diesels aren't selling here.
I also qualified my remarks about those characteristics as "perceptions". That's what they are!!
There was no need for any level of aggressivness.
There was no need for such a put down.
Actually the whole thing WAS "balanced and unbiased!!"
Furthermore it's not germaine to the topic of this forum.
That said, are you familiar with just how many grades of diesel are on the market today?
I just felt your post was very negative. Just my perception. You are correct we are way off from the topic of this thread. So I will apologize if I was offensive to you.
the Japanese automaker offered no-interest loans and other incentives amounting to $5,083 per pickup, according to auto data firm Edmunds.com.
"The only large truck with a higher level of incentives in June than the Tundra was the (Dodge) Ram," said Alex Rosten, manager of pricing and market analysis at Edmunds.com. "Everybody else was lower."
They smell bad.
They're noisy.
They smoke.
Not as many fuel stations carry diesel, and access is less than gasoline.
Diesel fuel right now isn't much cheaper than gasoline--in fact at some places it's more.
People don't understand them, and associate them with big rigs.
Take a trip to Europe and everywhere else where diesels are offered in larger quantities.
FWIW, VW has had success with its TDIs here, despite the stricter emission rules.
The Ram look seems to work. Tundras are finding homes too. Everybody has cash on the hood. $3k. $4k. $5k. What's the difference at this point.
I'm pretty sure Ford will win the incentive battle this month, with 0% + $2007.
DrFill
Mackabee
Like Barry Bonds vs Bobby Bonds. :surprise:
DrFill
I thought it was Toyota that was offering 0% for 60 months and $5k incentives on all their Tundras. It don't get much better than that if you need a truck and don't have the cash. Even if you have the cash you can put it in the money market and use Toyota money for free. Now that is a Woo Hoo.
Thanks for the advice.
As noted in the post you quoted, we lived in France for three years in the 90s, and actually owned a diesel car.
Travelled quite extensively while there, and yes, diesels are very popular.
Diesel fuel is available at most stations--much more prevailent than here.
Not too long ago we spent several months in South America. I didn't see nearly as many diesel vehicles in use there though.
Ditto for Australia and New Zealand--but in the Orient they're very common.
Wouldn't it be something if he was arrested driving a Hummer or some '70s muscle car. Pop would look like a big-time hypocrite!
Too bad about his son though. He's making some very poor decisions. I mean, anyone with a buttload of illicit drugs who sails down a SoCal freeway at over 100mph is begging for attention.
...but maybe the big 3 are catching up in quality
Ford has said straight up we're going to 0% AND over $2k.
I'm sure most makes have additional funds to use, if necessary.
DrFill
Carlisimo had the best comment there. "Al Gore III - An Inconvenient Youth."
Carlisimo, I can't wait for the movie to come out. Maybe Michael Moore will produce it.
$2500 on all Tundra's, except Reg Cab's where it's $3000.
or
0% for 60 months.
The dealer can sell the vehicle for whatever price he wants.
Toyota got their 'ramp-up' in gear last month. As one of the larger ones we got hit with 3 month's supply altogether. Where we had one or none of most models/options now we have two or three of each. But we are still far from being stocked 'normally'. Consider the possible permutations and combinations.
31 configurations X 11 colors X multiple package options ( say 5 ) = that's over 1700 possible combinations. Even with 200-300 trucks in inventory we are certain to miss 80% of the requests made by the public.
To be realistic and to keep things managable some configurations don't offer all the colors or options so the total might be only 1000 different variations. At a constant 300 unit inventory we still miss 2/3 of the requests.
I think the published top speed on that car is 105 mph.
That said, it was probably at top speed. I don't see it doing more than 105, with a tailwind.
DrFill
No matter what you think of Al gore Jr and Al Gore III, Al Gore Sr. passed away in 1998, I don't think dropping them off a cliff is a very good idea.
Lets not turn this into politics please I have a feeling you and me would not agree.
:P
Mackabee
I believe it was the legendary Chevu Caprice that pulled the trick in the 70's. :surprise:
DrFill
That's the best one I've heard in weeks. Great pun.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
HISTORY: AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION BEGAN FLARING WHEN COLD AFTER PUTTING AROUND 400 MILES ON THE NEW CAR -- GEAR WOULDN'T "CATCH" AND WOULD SKIP GEARS; IN SHOP FOR TSB TO CORRECT PROBLEM, BUT DIDN'T CORRECT IT; IN SHOP AGAIN TO REPLACE TRANSMISSION SINCE CORPORATE CLAIMED THAT WOULD FOR SURE CORRECT FLARING PROBLEM; ADDITIONAL PROBLEMS RESULTING FROM NEW TRANNY INCLUDING STRANGE WHOOSHING NOISE ON DRIVER SIDE, JERKINESS WHEN CHANGING GEARS, AND HESITATION WHEN ACCELERATING; BACK TO SHOP TO CORRECT; SHOP WAS ABLE TO REMOVE WHOOSHING NOISE, BUT JERKINESS REMAINED AND FLARING CONTINUED ALBEIT AT DIFFERENT TIMES THAN IT DID BEFORE. FAILURE AND CONSEQUENCES: AFTER STOPPING AT A STOP LIGHT, TRIED TO MAKE LEFT-HAND TURN TO JOIN THE INTERSTATE MERGE LANE, BUT CAR WOULD NOT SUPPLY ENOUGH POWER DESPITE BEING IN DRIVE AND PUSHING ON THE ACCELERATOR APPROPRIATELY; BARELY MADE IT ACROSS THE INTERSECTION BEFORE HAVING TO PULL OVER TO SHOULDER TO STOP, PUT ON HAZARD LIGHTS, AND LET OTHER INTERSTATE TRAFFIC GET BY; THEORIZING THAT THE TRANSMISSION PROBABLY GOT STUCK IN WHATEVER GEAR THE CAR WAS IN AS I APPROACHED THE STOP LIGHT (3RD OR 2ND) AND THEN DIDN'T APPROPRIATELY DOWNSHIFT ITSELF TO GET UP TO POWER COMING FROM A COMPLETE STOP AT THE STOP LIGHT TO CROSS THE INTERSECTION; BECAUSE THE CARS BEHIND ME WERE PAYING ATTENTION AND ROADS FREE OF ICE AND THEY SAW THAT THE CAR WAS NOT ABLE TO GET UP TO SPEED, I WAS LUCKY NOT TO BE REAR ENDED. WHAT WAS DONE TO CORRECT FAILURE: BECAUSE IT'S BEEN IN THE SHOP 5 TIMES FOR BAD TRANSMISSION, NOT SURE WHAT THEY'LL DO TO CORRECT IT -- THAT IS PENDING. WILL LIKELY REQUEST BUY BACK DUE TO SAFETY CONCERNS AND APPARENT INABILITY TO CORRECT UNDERLYING TRANSMISSION PROBLEMS
WE PURCHASED AN 07 CAMRY NOV 06. AT 7,000 MILES IT STARTED SLIPPING, NOT ACCELERATING. WE TOOK TO DEALER. THEY RESET MEMORY. DIDN'T HELP. TOOK A SECOND TIME, RESET MEMORY, DIDN'T HELP. WENT THROUGH ARBITRATOR, DIDN'T HELP. THE CAR IS UNSAFE TO DRIVE. WHEN IT NEEDS TO ACCELERATE, IT DOESN'T. I WAS ALMOST HIT BY A SEMI. TOYOTA IS AWARE OF A DEFECT IN THE COMPUTER CHIP, BUT WON'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. PLEASE HELP ME AND THE OTHER 07 CAMRY OWNERS BEFORE AN ACCIDENT OCCURS WHICH COULD POSSIBLY BE FATAL. ITS NOT A MATTER OF IF AN ACCIDENT WILL OCCUR, BUT A MATTER OF WHEN. WE ARE ALSO GETTING BAD GAS MILEAGE DUE TO THE DEFECT
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/results.cfm
According to Ford they do. Sounds Offensive to me.
Ford faces shortages of crucial parts from components manufacturers -- which are longtime suppliers, and in some cases affiliates, of Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co., the leaders in hybrids.
Ford suspects it may be getting squeezed out by its Japanese rivals. With the fall launch of the gas-electric Mercury Mariner, Ford is tripling its hybrid SUV lineup over three years. But its transmission supplier, Aisin Seiki Co. Ltd., can boost deliveries by only 20 percent, to 24,000 transmissions annually.
"Aisin, which is minority-controlled by Toyota, has interesting shareholders they have to answer to," said Mary Ann Wright, director of Ford's hybrid programs research and advanced engineering.
http://detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0508/08/A01-272872.htm
http://www.aisin.com/product/automotive/drivetrain/ot.html
We were supplying a GM plant through Magna International. Magna had a 5 minute window to make it's deliveries. It was given a 6 month, 3 month, 30 day, 1 week and 1 day schedule. If it missed its 5 minute window and risked closing GM's line it was fined $3000/minute.
Our steel came from Germany and France. At one time we supplied all the exterior parts for the Cherokees, most of the Mustang doors and fender and the Crown Vic roof panels plus all the heat shields for all Chryslers. At one point the US Govt assessed potential penalties on all imported steel of $200-$400 per metric ton. We had to go to each and tell them that their prices were going to jump 10-20% overnight. They said 'No, eat the penalties.' We said No and walked away after some heated discussion which left them without a supplier. At one point I was barred from entering Chrysler's HQ in Auburn Hills.
This is ironic given today's environment. In that 80'-90's period the US Steel industry was going through what the US domestic auto industry is going through now. The biggest single customers for the steel makers were GM / F / C. Well the steel makers had been fat and happy since the end of WWII and had done nothing to improve technology. Some plants in Pittsburgh were the very same ones built by Andrew Carnegie at the turn of the century. Processes done at our plants in France and Germany by computer were still being done by hand at some US Steel plants. The Big 3 told the steel industry to invest and to improve quality; specifically in computer-controlled operations and to implement the use of SPC across the board and become ISO 9000 certified .... or else all the business would be given to the Japanese, French and German steel makers. The American steel industry said it didn't have the money to modernize so one by one they dropped off the map.
Then the steel makers got the US Govt to assess dumping penalties against the Japanese, French and German steel makers leaving them alone in this market. So they jacked their prices to the Big 3 by 50-100%. Payback time.
Then Nucor, Steel Dynamics and other US minimills came into existence and put the old dinosaurs to death. Only US Steel survives as it was. The others all died off or were absorbed or sold by larger companies.
The company I used to work for was about 1/3 the size of US steel when I began there in 1977 now it's the largest in the world and about 5 times bigger than US Steel.
This is not a business for the faint-of-heart.
My point in all this is Toyota is NOT a big warm cuddly GREEN teddy bear. Many uninformed people seem to think so. The hybrid technology is dribbled out so that no other company can make a profit. I am not sure they would get away with what they are doing in the USA.
Another offensive issue:
Toyota builds dirty diesels and sells them all over the world. They sell a few hybrids in the US to give off a Green glow that fades rather quickly when seen in the light of the facts.
It's also sad that many people bought into the idea that Toyota is a "Green" company. I personally never thought it that way. They are just another huge corporation not unlike GM and Ford and out on their way to make as much profit as possible. The only thing different is that Toyota makes better products than rest of the field IMO. Do I care who is the "Greenest" company? Not really. Do I want to buy the best product with my hard earn money? You betcha.
You must throw your weight around whenever you have an advantage because if you don't then when the other guy has the advantage he'll kick your butt up and down the street...and all you can do is roll with the kicks.
If Toyota wants Aisin to play hardball with a Johnny-come-lately, too bad! :P
Since When am I supposed to feel sorry for Ford?
If they want something done right, they should do it themselves.
Ford and Gm are better at making enemies out of suppliers than building relationships, so who's fault is that?
Navistar hates them, and they are actually in front of the diesel market. So when Navistar is supplying Toyota with super diesels in 3 years, who should we blame for Ford's troubles then? :confuse:
I don't wanna hear any excuses for Ford's problems. They have no idea what they're doing!
DrFill
tincup47, "Both Ford, Nissan buy Toyota's Hybrid System!" #127, 7 Apr 2004 12:25 pm
1. Ford did pay Toyota to avoid any conflict with the two hybrid systems.
2. Toyota is still tied up in litigation that claims Toyota stole the PSD design from another company. That will be decided in a German court of law.
3. I say good riddance to Navistar and their POC diesel engines. I can understand Ford wanting to get out of the deal. They are nothing but trouble. We had four of the latest series in Alaska and at least one was always in the shop. It would be fitting that Toyota gets those engines. I would call it Karma.
Oh, and the Japanese government put up a big chunk of money to develop the hybrid system.
Ford doesn't need Navistar/International anymore. The diesel engine they have developed on their own with Land Rover/Jaguar in Europe can be a superior engine to the Powerstroke.
The 6.0 powerstroke motor makes 325 hp @ 3,300 rpms and 570 torque @ 2,000 rpms. It is also an all iron motor so very, very heavy.
http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/2007superduty/features/specs/
The 3.6 liter TDV8 in the New Range Rover would make around 273 hp on the SAE standard @ 4,000 RPMs and 472 torque @ 2,000 rpms. It has aluminum heads and a CGI(Compressed Graphite Iron) Block so it will be much lighter then the powerstroke. It is a very small diesel compared to the powerstroke and I am sure it could be stretched another liter or more in displacement.
A 4.6 liter or 4.8 liter TDV8, keeping everything else equal, should make at least as much hp and torque as the powerstroke with better fuel economy.
Customers can't be that unhappy, since 40% of F-seires sales have the PowerStroke.
DrFill
The new one sounds like a good reason for Ford to split the sheets with Navistar.