Synthetic motor oil

ruking1

To me that is the worst of both worlds.

If you change at normal intervals unless you really need the low temp advantage I would use conventional oil

If you want to go to 10-15k the best would be to use full synthetic.

bottgers

spokane

I don't remember the exact web site address that addresses combustion contamination, but I do recall that I found it by entering the keywords "synthetic motor oil testing." Give it a try.

wilcox

The same test results that I just referenced spokane to showed that none of the synthetic blends contain more than 10% synthetic. They explained that you'd get more benefit simply by replacing one quart of conventional oil with one quart of synthetic. Based on a five quart oil change, which is what most cars take, this would give you a 20% blend of synthetic. They also tested engine treatments such as Slick 50, Duralube, and Prolong. Their tests showed that none of these products offered any benefits whatsoever. In fact, they said these products could actually DAMAGE your engine because they can clog up your oil filter. Their tests showed that using nothing but full synthetic provides the best protection for your engine.

wilcox

for thoughts and comments. Rather than do a great deal of research, my instinct says to go with full synthetic. I'm half way there cost wise..whats a few bucks more? I'll try Mobile 1 or maybe Valvoline Full Syn., and be done with it. Hopefully, the benefit will be 1 oil change versus 3....will target 12,000 mi.
And, after reading the link to the "electrical engineers" oil filter site, I'll stay away from filters mfg'ed by Mr. "F".!
Thanks again fellas....

tboner1965

If you change your dino oil every 3k and synthetic
every 5K here is how it works out for our vehicles.

Assume a do it yourself with Mobil 1 at $4/quart and dino juice at $1.50/quart, filter at $5/each.

Over 5K miles you will need one synthetic change
at the following cost.

6 quarts @$4/quart = $24.00
1 filter @$5.00 = 5.00

Total Cost $29 for synthetic.

The cost of a dino juice oil change is:

6 quarts @$1.50/quart = $9.00
1 filter @$5.00 = 5.00

Total Cost $14, but you need 1.67 changes during
the 5k mile period, so the total cost over 5k miles is $23.38.

If you get better fuel economy with synthetic,
(some do) then the cost is further offset. If your fuel economy improves by just 1% you will get 50 free miles over the course of the 5k mile period. That is like 2-3 gallons of fuel or easily $2.75 to $4.00

Not to mention what your time is worth.

So what does all of this prove, synthetic is not
as expensive as you might think.

If you go to 6K miles between synthetic changes
the price difference is about a buck, you don't use as many resources, you generate less waste, yada yada yada.

I even use synthetic in my newly acquired 1987
Buick. It goes about 1600 miles a month, so every
three months we've gone through 5K miles. I'd hate to be changing oil every seven weeks. I'll run that out to 12 or 13 weeks and spend that hour with Mrs. TBoner.

TB

ruking1

Using post #247 figures;
The cost per mile is .0102 for conventional oil
.00288 for synthetic oil.
So the cost to use conventional oil over 100,000 miles is 3.5416666 times more than the synthetic, following post #247's intervals. (The figures will of course vary)

bottgers

Good cost comparison! I do have something I'd like to add to it though. I noticed you used a 5K interval for changing synthetic. Maybe it's just a comfort thing for you, but there's no reason to change synthetics at anything less than the 7500 mile intervals, at least if your using Mobile 1 or Amzoil anyway. This makes using full synthetic even more economical. Plus, there's not much that beats the feeling of knowing your engine is getting the absolute best protection possible!

tboner1965

I just ask for one kitchen pass from the wife and then spend a Saturday Morning or afternoon chaning oil, rotating tires etc.

On the Contour and soon to be the same for the MPV, I do the same and every other oil change I drain 4 quarts of tranny fluid (drain plug, no user serviceable filter unless you tear down the tranny) and refill with 4 quarts of Mobil 1 tranny fluid.

Ford says service like every 30K miles with a drain four quarts, refill, run through gears, and then drain and fill again.

I'd like to actually use my four quarts so I just drain and fill every 10K miles. I use more fluid, but then I get to use it. Could probably go longer with the synthetic fluid, but I'm trying to get the standard stuff out. Right now I think there are 8 quarts of factory fill and 4 quarts of Mobil 1 at 12K miles on the car.

We shall see what the MPV needs for tranny service next spring. It is just now creeping up on 5K on the clock after 5 months of ownership.

Hey, everyone has to have a hobby!

TB

bblaha

I do the same. I've never really understood the argument for taking your vehicle somewhere to get the torque converter flushed. Just replace the amount you can get from the pan (in your case 1/3 of the total) and then change it that much more often.

In my case, I get about 1/2. I change the oil every 7500 (Mobil 1 w/ filter) and 1/2 the tranny fluid (also Mobil synth ATF) every 15k.

bottgers

You need a kitchen pass to work on your car? You must really be kept on a short leash.

I change the tranny fluid in my Intrepid every 15K miles, and I change ALL of the fluid and the filter. No need to take your car to a tranny shop and spend all that moola for them do a flush, and they don't even replace the filter. All you need to do is drop the pan like you normally would, change the filter, then replace the pan with a new gasket. Then disconnect one of the tranny lines that runs between your tranny and the radiator, either the return line if you disconnect at the radiator, or the supply line if you disconnect at the tranny. Attach a piece of clear tubing to the tranny line (use about an 8 ft. piece) and place the other end of the tube in your drain pan, or use a gallon milk jug. If you use the milk jug, you can monitor about how much fluid has been pumped from the tranny while it's pumping. Fill your tranny with fluid to the full level. Then set your parking brake and with engine running, put your tranny in drive. The tranny will start pumping out fluid. While the fluid is pumping out, slowly add more fluid to keep the tranny full during this procedure. Be careful not to overfill the tranny. I don't know how much fluid your Contour holds, but my Intrepid takes about 10 quarts when it's dry. When I drain the pan, I drain somewhere between 4 and 5 quarts. The rest is held in the torque converter. I pump out about 6 quarts. The last time I did this, I used about 11 quarts of fluid. This process takes a while, so if you plan to do it, allow about 3-4 hours.

The first time I needed a tranny fluid change, I took my car to a tranny shop to have them do a flush. Not only did they charge me $140, when I got the car home, it was leaking tranny fluid. I had to take it back and they had to replace the pan gasket. Then as I was removing the pan bolts to do my own fluid change, I noticed that all of the pan bolts were way overtorqued. Those bolts screw into aluminum, and shouldn't have been torqued as tight as they were. I'm surprised they didn't strip any!

If you get into doing your own maintenance as much as I do, and it sounds like you do, you should give this a try. I actually enjoyed doing it. And of course it means one less thing that I have to have done by a shop. I trust any of those sons-a-bees about as far as I can throw them! When I do my own maintenance, I know it's getting done right!

tboner1965

My wife likes it when I play with the kids on the weekends

I suppose I could do that with the Contour and certainly with the Buick. But that drain plug on the Contour makes it quite easy to get that 4 quarts out and replaced. Takes about 15 minutes tops. Of course I don't get all of the fluid out. I do feel that since I'm starting relatively early in the life cycle of the fluid that by the time I've reached 30K miles the fluid will be 70% Mobil 1 and by 60K miles the tranny fluid will be over 91% Mobil 1.

BTW, the Contour holds 12 quarts and you can drain out about 4 from the drain plug. Since there is no user servicable filter (just a perm. screen) I think I'll conserve some of my time and keep doing it this way.

I just wish I'd have put a drain plug on the Buick when I dropped the pan at 50K, so I could drain the fluid before dropping the pan again, well maybe next time.

TB

wilcox

Our V-6 Toyota Transaxel holds only 3.7 quarts of fluid and the 'separate' differential portion of it is supposeto hold a fraction of a quart. I'd better go read the manual again....don't think that there is a cooler...

spokane

Thanks, Bottgers, for a very clever procedure to more effectively replace the fluid in the torque converter. I'll give it a try. Shouldn't this procedure be equally effective on cars with ATF drain plugs and those with removable pans?

If ATF flow through the converter were truly a "first-in/first-out" flow pattern, your procedure would provide almost 100% replacement. In practice, with consideration for some mixing within the converter, it seems you would achieve a bit less than 100% although far greater than the 35% to 55% that is typically achieved through draining and refilling the sump only. What proportion of the 10-quart total would you estimate is being replaced with your flushing procedure?

Wouldn't drain plugs on the torque converter be advantageous? I recall that some Ford C-6 transmissions had converter drains but they were apparently a rare exception to the rule.

Tboner1965, some of the THM-440 transmission drain pans, including some '87 LeSabres, were very difficult to seal. There was/is a TSB which specifies a replacement oil pan ...which I believe to be a sturdier pan. I've had better luck with a heavy-bodied silicone sealer than with fiber or cork gaskets on these. Good luck.

armtdm

V6 Toyota Differential has a separate drain plug, at least on my 92 it does. There was a disagreement between my dealer and Toyota as to the differential drain. Dealer swears that if you drain the trans it includes the differential. Toyota says 2 separate reservoirs. I had both changed but after doing this myself I am siding with the mechanic. Anyway, 3.7 qrts is only half the fluid which is all you get when pulling the plug. Manual says at least double that is in there

bottgers

You say your Contour has a drain plug on the tranny pan? Did that come from the factory that way? I've never had a car that came with a drain plug. You also mentioned that you wanted to have a drain plug installed on your Buick. Where do you take the pan to have a drain plug installed? Having a drain plug sure would make removing the pan a lot easier!

wilcox

I've checked back with my Owner's Manual and with the Haynes Repair Manual and they say that capacity for the 1MZ auto transaxle is 3.7 qt. None of them make reference to an additional 3.7 qt.
When I remove the drain plug, a tad over two quarts fall out. Perhaps I can get up enough nerve to call our Toyota Dealer and see what they say.....I don't wanna screw up! Thanks....

wilcox

Mr. Chilton, says that the 4cyl transaxel capacity is 9.4 pts. And, the 6 cyl's capacity is 6.6 pts.! Yet the Owner's Manual says the 4 cyl's capacity is 2.6 quarts, that agrees with Haynes Manual....Something don't jibe...

Good Gravy, I hate it when things don't match.... let's see...2 pints make a quart..aaa..duh..a..

bottgers

If you're refereing to cars with drain plugs in the torque converter, this procedure wouldn't be necessary. It's sole purpose is to replace the fluid that you can't replace simply by draining or removing the pan.

I would estimate that this procedure changes somewhere between 80-90% of the fluid.

Yes, drain plugs would be very practical and would eliminate the need for this procedure. Come to thunk of it, I can't think of a single reason why the auto manufacturers don't put drain plugs on the tranny pans and torque converters of all cars. Next thing you know, they'll stop putting drain plugs on the oil pans! It just seems to me that the car makers have to make things as difficult as possible.

div2

My 1993 Pathfinder SE has a drain plug on the A/T pan , as does my wife's BMW 3er. Even better, the Nissan diffs have socket headed drain and fill plugs which simply take a 1/2" ratchet extension; no fumbling for the correct size socket or hex insert. Finally, B&M used to sell an A/T drain plug kit. It worked fine @25 years ago on my 1974 Monte Carlo's TH-350.

tboner1965

Yup, the Contour's ATX has a factory drain plug, but you cannot drop the pan, no filter that one can change w/o tearing down the tranny.

The plug is like div2's, but uses a 3/8 ratchet extention to get it out.

And, I've heard of drain plug kits, I imagine you'd find the right location in the drain pan and drill a hole, a hollow tube that is threaded on both the inside and out could be placed in the hole with a nut or two holding it in place. Then an actual drain plug would thread into the hollow tube.

Well, at least that is how I would make one, if I were crafting it myself.

You wouldn't need to get all of the fluid out, just enought so that dropping the pan would not be such a messy job.

It is a shame you can't pump out the fluid from the dipstick first.

I could do that on our 97 Plymouth GV with the 4speed automatic. Pump out about 4 quarts of fluid, then drop the pan. A lot less mess that way!

But no Mobil1 in that, only that Chrysler ATF+3

Cheers,

TB

div2

You described the B&M plug almost exactly! It was a 3/4" bolt with a drilled and threaded center hole. You drilled a hole in the pan(using the enclosed diagrams to spot the correct location) and bolted it in with a couple of nylon gaskets. You put a wrench on the 3/4" bolt to keep it from turning while you removed the drain plug. And yes, the idea was that the drain plug would make filter service much easier.

spokane

Thanks, bottgers, the 80%-90% replacement with your procedure sounds like a good estimate.

Some of the Ford C-6 transmissions had two drain plugs on the torque converter housing. You would first remove the lower plug but the converter would not drain due to air locking. You would then rotate the converter 180* to get access to the 2nd plug. Remove it and the top opening would serve as a vent to permit draining. I have wondered if omission of such plugs is simply a manufacturing cost saving measure or if possibly the welded plug fittings caused too much difficulty in balancing the converter. Any ideas?

kranjec1

After reading a goodly portion of this site, I have come to the following conclusion:
mobil 1 and a good filter (mobil 1, pure one, delco, wix) every 7500 miles.

wilcox

Went to AutoZone. They had a "rebate special" advertised. Five quarts mobile 1 and a purolator plus...get rebate of $5. They didn't have any info on how to get rebate so store manager sold me the mobile 1 for $4.19 per quart and turned me on to a free $5.99 purolator plus! I went ahead and doubled the whole order! Twelve dollars worth of oil filters...free.

wilcox

was pure one filter. Anyway the most expensive filter...

dgsg

Recently got Mobil 1 in a 5 quart bottle. The price worked out to 3.36 a quart. Found it at Wal-Mart.

bottgers

Do you have any idea where I might be able to purchase one of these B&M drain plug kits?

div2

I'd try a local speed shop or a national shop like Summitt.

rcarboni

Summit Racing - www.summitracing.com - carries the B&M draing plug kit, and their own brand drain plug kit. I have purchased both, and the Summit brand kit is of higher quality in my opinion.

jheming

would like to know the reason more companies arn't
useing the engine screw in filter types. like saturns

trns pans are such a pain.

squidflake

I heard a rumor that once you put synthetic oil in the car you cannot go to regular..

Has anyone else heard this? Is it true?

Jason

rcarboni

There is no reason I ever heard that you couldn't switch back to dino oil after using synth. This was obviously false info, and the use of synth blends would prove this.

squidflake

Thanks. Thats what I thought

erikali

I have a question. I just had a situation where I had an oil change at one of those quick oil change locations. While I thought it was one of the more quality ones, the next day, as I was driving my I30t, the oil light appeared. I'm not 100% sure how long it was on. I pulled over, and called roadside assistance. When they towed the car in, they said that the oil drain plug was missing and that the engine had no oil. I don't think I had synthetic oil in there, but don't know.

Now my question is to what degree do you think it was likely there was engine damage, how bad do you think it could be (the Infiniti dealer can't tell without taking the engine apart, they said). I realize you're probably guessing, but that would help me get a range.

I plan on persuing it with the oil change place, and they seem open to suggestions as how to resolve this whole issue. Does anyone have any?

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

vernlew

This is the reason I NEVER use a quick lube place for an oil change! You may have a bunch of young kids (not even mechanics) workin on your (precious) car, who may lack a sense of responsibility. Next time, make the time to: go to the Infiniti parts department, purchase a case of oil filters, purchase Mobil 1 in the weight recommended by Infiniti (available periodically on sale at K-Mart), then approximately every 5K (easy for an old brain like mine to remember), take the oil + filter to your local Infiniti dealer for an oil change...bringing your own parts decreases the $$$ dramatically, would say it shouldn't cost you more than $20 bucks. Now, if anything happens, Infiniti will make the claim good vs. your fight with the quick lube place this time if any damage has occurred. Good Luck.
My $0.02
Vern

mwikle

Could not resist jumping in on a few misconceptions in the thread.

First...ash content has nothing directly to do with sludge...ash is simply a measure of the inorganic metallic compounds "left over" when the orgainc stuff is burned away. Typically this is Zinc Dithiophosphate (spell?) in PCMO (pass car motor oil). Comparing this as a basis to purchase oil is not a useful measurement, only really useful purchase specs is GF-2/SJ spec (or similar BMW/Euro approvals) & weight/vis. Ash is sometime relevant for engines sensitive to valve deposits from oil in some types of engines (not cars & light trucks).

Second...syn typically only "lasts" longer if it has more better/additives in the original formulation than other comparable non-syn oils(and a good filter)...the syn base oil itself is no more likely to "break down" than most mineral-based oils. In fact, some hydrogen-treated, catalytically dewaxed conventional oils (called "Group II" in trade) perform in most respects like syn .I believe from Marketing messages, but do not know factually (trade secret formulas), that some premium syns do probably have above-spec./next-generation "type" premuim additives providing more "safety margin" if you will.

Syn IS less likely to sludge-up if you have high temp zones in engine like 'vettes, turbo's. Also lubes faster at start-up in cold places w/o engine heaters. Some technical researchers say it has less internal friction (due to uniform molecules) and gets better mileage; some say this is mostly viscosity effect (blend to lower viscosity in acceptable range for the grade always gets more mileage mileage), and in any case no consumer will likley be able to measure a statistically significant change of only 1% or so in milage (odometers, pumps, gas blends, and driving conditions vary WAY WAY too much from tank to tank to reliably measure small mileage differences.

Dirty oil says NOTHING about how much useful life the oil has (was true dirty=bad when oils had no additives in them befor about 1960 or so). Only tests can tell when an oil is worn out.

Here is some stuff I put in another group on oils & oil condition tests:

There are some rather interesting opinions on
oils/lubrication/testing/extended drains...then
again cars can be a passion for enthusiasts.

At work, we use Cleveland Tech (CTC) for used oil
analysis, they may do some OEM-branded tests too, I dunno. But our work is for fleets, and mostly HDMO (i.e. sooty diesel engines, not PCMO-Pass Car
Motor Oil).

I NEVER recommend **consumers** vary from OEM
drain and viscosity reccommendations no matter what
testing processes they do...risk/reward is too
small IMHO. It is fine to be more conservative,
and/or test, but sent max. intervals at OEM limits. Very surprising the amount of 10W40 & 20W50 PCMO we sell...BUT no OEM recommends those grades any longer (and has not for a while). Old
habits/beliefs die hard.

For the record, I use syn & premium (or OEM)
filter in my personal car and change at about 5K
miles...this is overkill, but heck oil is
cheap...engines are not. The syn does not lube
"better", but does provide some additional safety
margins in some areas. I have used oil analysis
from time to time on my older car to check
conditions. Titan Labs (sold at K-mart) has a
consumer-friendly report. Most folks should avoid
purely numeric reports like fleets use.

My PCMO oil advice to consumers is mostly like "Click & Clack"(NPR car show) give:(1) GF2/SJ oils are very good even at base spec. blend (2) buy a major brand (big oil co. or retail brand---the issue is day to day quality control, NOT who is "best"...around 5% if I recall correctly, per API and State of NC (only state that checks) are misblended/sold off-spec (3) change and use a good filter each time and do it at *5000 miles* not 3000 oil change places say...when the color get darker the oil is still fine for service. If you are TRULY severe service (per OEM), then do that recommendation for miles (4) Add nothing to the oil...it is a competitive market if their was a miracle additive in would be in oil in the first place...our developers are pretty smart formulators, and I think know a lot more about engines than most infomercial people.

Disclaimer: most oil manufactures say follow OEM
recommendations...too many Lawyers out there to vary from that advice if you are a big deep pockets company...little oil supplers can vary and push extended drains...I think they need a way to merchandise oils, and it is quite true that done right extended drains are possible (look at newer Mercedes & BMWs).

FWIW, I do have a professional basis to comment on oils, relevant credentials (besides employment:
lubricants technical training at major oil co.) are ChE degree, and STLE (Society of Tribologists and Lubrication Engineers) CLS(tm) credential
(Certified Lubrication Specialist). Waaaaaay too
many posters in these technical forums sound too
"authoritative" in their tone. Claiming a cause/effect relationship (or implying it) without data is silly...Like race car *drivers* endorsing oil additive...come on, that is "testimonial" not proof/solid evidence. Netizens beware...

ruking1

Tis true, how do you think 3000 mile oil changes are religiously touted!!???

ruking1

I can see you live out on the edge with 5000 mile oil changes!!

ruking1

Let me put it another way, if you are a mobil one engineer and told me that going 15k is way too far. I'd be more inclined to believe you. If you worked for a local world famous oil company as stock holder I'd hope you'd keep quiet and see about getting folks to keep their oil changes @ 3k instead of the 7.5k most manufacturers recommend. But I got to tell you that on the MB E-320 they are adament about the 15k (synthetic) oil change.

div2

Ditto for the new BMWs and their 16k+ intervals- using a 5W-30 proprietary synthetic.

loyola

From time to time Mobil One and Valvoline go on
sale in their 5 quart containers. I have been using Mobil One synthetic and its time for oil change (5K).But Valvoline is on sale now and nobody knows when is Mobil One going to be.
My question is, will switching to between brands of synthetic oil good?...not considering Quaker State of course

sniffy

i have not heard of any negative effects of switching between brands.
when i bought my car (99 mazda protege), it came factory filled with valvoline conventional oil.
after the break-in period, i switched to valvoline synthetic.
after reading the rave reviews about mobil1, i decided to give that a try and have been using that since a year now, and there's one positive comparison i can make between mobil1 and valvoline synthetic ....ever since i switched to mobil1, my fuel efficiency has gone up by 3mpg.

although i'm more than happy with mobil1, i'm kinda tempted to give AMSOIL a shot ...maye just once.

ruking1

#299

Ditto for the C-5 and their 10-15k intervals ('97-'00, 10k, '01, 15k) using factory fill Mobil One 5W-30 (synthetic).

gladichecked

I recently purchased a 2000 Mazda Protege-ES. I plan on switching to synthetic at the 1000mi mark. I have never used synth before, but I get the feeling, the earlier in engine life the better if you're going to do it. I'm a true believer that an early oil change on a new car is good insurance to get rid of any metal particulates that may be floating around. Putting aside the cost issue (which seems to favor synth in long run), I like the idea of reducing the oil drain intervals in half.

Sniffy,

Come join us on the Protege forum some time. We are a friendly bunch of zoom zoomers!

sniffy

tks buddy
i am an active "listener" on the protege forum, but dont participate much.
congratulations on your new purchase and welcome to the excited bunch of protege owners (!).

re. oil changes, even though synthetic oil is good for about 7500 miles+, i have decided to stick to the factory maintenance schedule - as far as changing oil is concerned, maybe thats an overkill, but its a much safer bet compared to the cost of engine repairs.

gladichecked

maybe it would be better to look at it as "protection beyond 3000mi", to steal a line from a commercial...lol. With my Pro-ES they recommend changing oil every 5000mi/4mo, and less often (7500mi/6mo) for conditions with which I'm not familiar (no stop & go, no humidity, no rough roads, etc.). I figure that with synth I could safely go 5-6k between changes. I would want to change the filter within that time frame anyway. Like someone in an earlier post said...oil is cheap, engines are expensive! I figured instead of changing regular oil every 3000mi as everyone has been programmed, I would change my synth oil every 6k. That is within 1000mi of Mazda recommendation for regular oil, and it still cuts oil changes in half of what I would do if using regular oil.

doublewing

My new Mazda Tribute with the V6 requires 5W-20 motor oil. I have never heard of this grade and I don't know who might be producing it. I suspect that Mobil 1 5w-30 would be fine, but I'd like to satisfy the warranty requirement. Any comments from folk who are up to date on these matters?

armtdm

Never heard of a 5W20. Check with Mazda, are they the only ones that can supply it. Also, ask the dealer ( call service) what brand and what weight they are using when they replace the oil. Guarantee that they are using a weight different then the manual suggests. They buy in bulk and use what they get the best deal on. I found that they were not even using the recommended weight for my car giving me the talk that they know what is best for their climate etc. They only know what is best for their bottom line!!!!!

wilcox

If you have an extended warranty, then they will have a major chance to screw you when you change oil over the manufacturers mileage limitations.....they'll screw you in a minute...ya know that they require that you maintain a traceable record...which will be used against you...the first time you make a claim to them or try to transfer warranty to another buyer...if you don't believe it then just call em up and ask!

armtdm

The dealer or warranty company must prove that it was the failure of the oil that caused the engine to fail, not that you did not change it according to suggested intervals. They will lose in court as 99% of the time the oil does not fail, especially synthetics.

Of course, the hassle factor is an issue

ruking1

#309
The extended warranty is really a reflection of how reliable and durable the vehicle is and how someone can sell a high priced insurance policy!! If you have ever read the fine print, it is amazing what is not covered!