I agree, to heck with active safety. Might as well hire a chaffeur and sit in the back. No traction control either, that's what my right foot is for.
I do like cruise control though. But that's because our roads are straight and boring here in Kansas and my butt & right leg really like being able to move around. ABS is also good since I can't duplicate its effects.
It's facinating how Subaru took a different approach than MB. I guess with the much increased use of CCDs in the last couple of years, they decided to go that route instead.
ADA is similar to the system that MB will be offering on the 2001 S-class. MB calls their system Distronic and it uses a radar gun mounted a few inches behind the front grill. The radar gun can scan the road up to 150 metres in advance. I believe that you set your vehicle x seconds behind the car in front of you and the system will compensate as necessary. However, it will only provide up to 20% of maximum braking power. If more is necessary, a warning will be displayed in the multi-function display in the middle of the speedometer, and a chime/buzzer will sound.
This system has been available in Europe for approximately 1-2 years already, but MB claims that they're still "tuning" if for North American driving styles and roads (read liability concerns). It is a rather expensive US$2000+ option though. As soon as an S-class fitted with it is available for a test drive, I'll let you all know how useful it is. Intial tests (in Europe) have been very positive. I bet that the Subaru system is slightly cheaper though, since it doesn't use a radar gun.
I can understand being suspicious of this ADA technology (especially would be leery of buying into the first generation of the technology). But cruise control? Seems like one drive across West Texas or the Oklahoma & Texas Panhandles or most of eastern New Mexico would convert anyone into a fan of cruise control.
anymore,but drove without cruise control for years. Nope, ani't saying that I liked it on the other hand.
I've heard it said that some folks did'nt want Electricity in the old days because they did'nt think it would last. All this new technology is the way to go IMO and with more and more folks on the road,control is a must. Life safety in the automotive arena should be first concern.
I guess the future Subaru's will be much like the Jetson's sedan after all w/ the way it's going. Seems Kinda sad computers controlling cars, what next! I'm suspicious of anything when I don't understand how it works, yet can adapt quickly, then wonder how I ever lived without it.
We are talking "future" here, but with some of the inventions being dicussed,the future is a short trip.
1) Set your vehicle x seconds behind the vehicle in front of you.
2) Your vehicle will respond to close intrusions, if necessary, but only with 20% capability.
3) If it is determined that more stopping power is necessary, the vehicle will provide visual and auditory reminders.
4) If your sorry [non-permissible content removed] is still alive, and if you still have enough driving skill left in your passive little body to react to the situation, you may still have time to survive.
Another point: when I lived in California and did a lot of freeway driving, there were numerous times that someone might edge in front of me, but with someone right on my tail a braking maneuver would be the absolute WRONG thing to do.
I can't understand the effort made on gimmicks, (gimmicks that will encourage more passivity) when they could be making cars with better braking systems, more responsive handling and steering, and better visibility.
Randy
PS. Texsubaru -- I just find that I'm a more involved driver when I don't use Cruise Control. To each his (or her) own.
Once upon a time (read: before "active" ANYTHING in cars) I was tooling down the Schuykill Expressway in Philadelphia in our MGB GT; it was crowded, traffic was moving herky-jerky, and I was in the wrong lane for the upcoming split in the road. I looked over my shoulder momentarily to verify an opening in the next lane when my then-wife, sitting in the passenger's seat, shrieked my name. As my head came back around I saw that the traffic ahead had stopped dead in its tracks. A quick stab of the brakes just barely managed to solve the dilemna; it was a stab I never would have made were it not for her alert.
I think I'm a pretty good driver, and my reaction time is still fairly quick despite the advancing years. Far be it from however to disabuse a system that would alert me, like my wife did, to something I missed seeing. The moral, to me, is that a system that works reliably and adds some measure to the safety equation can be a good thing, if perhaps only sometimes, to just about everyone. Cruise control, though not a safety tool, is nevertheless enormously useful on open highways. Over-reliance on any of these types of doodads is unwise, but that is not to say that folks who use them are passive occupants of their vehicles!
Drew: I would have one primary concern with that. Say you're driving 80mph and approaching another car with a radar detector going 70 in a 55 zone. His radar buzzes like crazy when you approach, and he slams on the brakes - BAM!
Don't laugh, this happened when Greyhound buses were equipped with similar radar (imagine the poor braking a bus has, too!). They had to remove the system entirely.
Do you know which band the radar uses?
I like cruise, but only for longer trips, never in day to day driving. With so much traffic nowadays, I get rare chances to even use it.
Tuning would mean everything. It would have to keep a safe distance from the car ahead, not 2 seconds, but more.
I'm more concerned about the navigation systems, internet, and e-mail. They should only work if they car is in Park or Neutral.
I'll take VDC or traction control as long as there's an off button.
Looks like I missed a lively discussion. Great contributions by all.
Ken, thanks for the ADA links. Pretty cool videos. Glad you're here to make sense of the Japanese. Near the last quarter of the last (4th) video, I believe the speaker is pronouncing "Subaru ADA", though it's certainly a non-English pronounciation. I think we covered this before but I don't recall the details.
Drew, thanks for the Distronic link; I also think the "Keyless Go" (keyless ignition, doors, and trunk) are a neat feature (I guess you get what you pay for And moving the garage door opener from the visor to the rear-view mirror is a nice refinement.
WDB, <276</A>> well said.
Cruise control does have the disadvantage that it can lull the driver to inattention (just as coffee or soda or children can distract), but as Colin and texsubaru said, it's helpful on long trips (I too like to shift seating position); there are two sides to every coin. Cruise is also helpful to avoid speeding tickets, or even "push the envelope" to find the sweet spot between the speed limit and the threshold at which an officer will cite you (9-10 mph on the interstates around DC, it seems). I find it very helpful to maintain a safe speed (to allow reaction time for children playing, pedestrians, bicyclists, etc.) on straight, broad residential streets or roads through a park, where the speeds are 25 mph and it's easy to creep up over the limit.
My latest e-mail (this morning) from SOA, indicated that the new Impreza will be a 2002 model, not a 2001. So, I guess we will be seeing this vehicle somewhere between January and March of 2001. A turbo is definitely going to be offered here (as if we didn't already know!). Whether it will be a WRX... who knows?
Interesting how many comments ADA has generated. My opinion is that the more safety options the better. While there is a risk of driver overconfidence, the system, when used correctly, would probably do more good than harm. It probably won't benefit the experienced and alert driver, but I could see it helping older drivers, for example. Understanding the limitations of any safety system and being able to toggle it on/off is the key.
Mike -- If you want to pronounce Subaru like a true native, place the accent on the second syllable (ie. SuBAru). American-English pronunciations tend to incorrectly place the accent on the first and last syllable and make the 'a' sound like 'u' (ie. SUbuRU).
Thanks, Ken. The Subaru speaker almost sounds like he's saying s-BA-ru, not pronouncing u in the first syllable. Not that I'll ever speak like a native, but one can always aim for "poseur-dom"
Fortunately, Distronic uses a different band than what radar detectors, or radar guns should pick up. Besides, most radar detectors don't have rear antennas (with the exception of the V1). Funny you should bring it up because Jaguar offers a similar adaptive cruise control system, and they had trouble getting it approved here because the radar interferred with the radar guns that the police use. Hey, maybe that's a good thing! :-)
FYI, we have photo radar vans here, which are basically special (and ordinary looking) GMC Safari vans with a forward facing radar gun and camera. If you exceed the speed limit, the computer will automatically take a picture of your vehicle (there's a really bright but brief, strobe light flash set outside), match your license plate # and write up a ticket for you. You'll then get a ticket, as well as a picture of your vehicle in the mail. Sneaky bastards! :-) But, since I generally don't speed, I haven't been caught (yet). Fines can run up to a few hundred bucks, especially if you're caught in a school zone.
The Europeans get all of the kewl toys! We don't get Keyless Go in North America for some reason. We just have the regular SmartKey setup. I don't know why they don't offer it here, but perhaps it has something to do with the unknown effects of placing a radio frequency emitting low powered object in your pants pocket ;-)
The description (in my S-class brochure) for Distronic reads as such:
"The sensor for the optional Distronic intelligent cruise control; concealed behind the grille, can pinpoint the car ahead to within centimetres. Checking the following distance you select and your own speed, the system adjusts the throttle and brakes to help you maintain the desired following distance."
There is also a disclaimer at the bottom of the page, similar to the SRS disclaimers:
"Distronic intelligent cruise control is no substitute for active driving involvement. It can neither recognise nor predict the curvature and lane layout of the road ahead (so in this respect, it is not as good as the Subaru's ADA) or the movement of vehicles ahead, and it can only apply a maximum of 25% of full braking power. It is the driver's responsibility at all times to be attentive to traffic and road conditions, and to provide the steering, braking, and other driving iinputs necessary to retain control of the vehicle."
But, in defense of photo radar, the RCMP place the photo radar vans only within a couple of blocks of areas which have high accident rates. They want the motorists to see the vans and slow down, which is why they don't hide the vans at all. Anyone who is paying attention should be able to see the vans parked by the side of the road.
Interesting information. I would imagine we would see a similar disclaimer for ADA if it were ever to come to N. America.
The Subaru website indicates that ADA can sense multiple vehicles up ahead of you including road curvature. I guess that's where CCDs would come in handy. However, I would imagine that it would take some "localization" efforts to make the same system work since road markers would vary between countries (and states!).
Why is it that the US market is getting something advanced like VDC (and maybe ADA, who knows) and yet we can't have automatic climate control (standard on JDM Subarus) or express up&down windows at all positions?
My dad's 4Runner has express up&down front side windows. I'm quite jealous, and a bit miffed considering the insignificant cost.
You made a good point, though. The bean counters will say that by removing map pockets, vanity lights, and express down power windows, they'll save, what, $20 bucks per car?
So to them it adds up to maybe $20 grand per month in profit. That's how they look at it.
But what about pleasing an extra 5% of customers, that will later buy another one and give you $5000 profit per purchase?
Heck, that probably amounts to MORE profit, not less.
-juice
PS Funny thing is I ordered the dual cup-holder, if only out of curiosity. It's just $15, probably $2 more than the single one costs to produce (hey, at least they threw that in!)
We don't get Keyless Go in North America for some reason.
Drew, I can easily answer that for you. It's part of the same conspiracy to keep Subaru turbos (Legacy B4 RSK) out of North America! Or maybe they use the same "marketing" consultants as SoA. Hehe.
Ken, LOL! But they did fix the cup holders, at least between the Legacy MY91 and 00.
Basically both news shorts (one's dated today, and the other is dated May 29) talk about GM building and branding a hybrid based on the Subaru Forester. There's also mention of them building a small car, but that is more likely with the GM - Suzuki affiliation, than with Subaru.
There have been several recent news wire reports of a new, larger Fuji/GM SUV coming within the next five years. My sense is that it will be based on the Outback, but a bit larger, using the H-6 engine. One report actually called it a "mid-size" SUV, which to me, means something that might(?) compete with an Explorer, etc. I think the new upcoming Toyota Highlander is probably a more likely target, however.
I suspect it will have 3 rows of seats. I also believe it will be sold as a GM vehicle as well as a Subaru.
I cringe a bit, but can accept GM selling a Forester. Just don't give us a GM car with a Subaru badge.
I've been hearing about that bigger one too, but they called it an SUW, like the Outback, and promised more power than the H6 will offer, but only in 2005!
Just use a Subaru platform and a boxer engine with AWD. If GM wants to sell a version too, fine.
I think that is what will happen. The GM version will be nothing more than a badge-enginnered Subaru.
The question is: which GM division is likely to get it? My pick is Oldsmobile, if only because Olds seems to be appealing to a more sophisticated audience. Saturn would be my second pick.
I just hope it's not Buick (for oldsters only) or Pontiac (too weird!).
I'm spectical, though. GM will use the AWD system from the Aztec on its minivans eventually, let's just hope they don't try to pass those off as Subarus.
The AWD Aztec is not only ugly, but offers pitiful fuel efficiency and somehow also manages to be slow, but at least it has poor ground clearance, is expensive, and doesn't offer 3rd row seating!
The guy who revived Subaru is leaving SoA, Muller is his name I believe, to head up a venture capital firm. Let's hope they don't completely lose their minds without him.
one of the reasons GM was interested in Subaru, was because of their AWD expertise. I doubt you will ever see a GM AWD system in a Subaru. I think you will see a Subaru AWD system in a GM vehicle though.
Imagine the Aztek with a bunch of extra hood scoops, stickers and badges (and it's already the ugliest vehicle on the road). Unfortunately, with it being aimed at the "Active" market, this might be the likely place for a "dose" of Subaru.
They'll probably think it's too "conservative" though, and add a 15 foot spoiler in the back, gills along the side, hood louvers, side skirts, and two dozen stickers, plus maybe a stripe or two.
Then they'll remove the supercharger so it's just a pretender
Seriously, back to Bob's question:
Chevy: no way. Value division won't mate well with AWD.
Pontiac: possibly, especially for ST-X and hybrids. Remember the Salsa?
Olds: image fits, and they're for import intenders.
Buick: heck no. Grandpa does not want AWD.
Cadillac: very unlikely. They are FWD mostly, and need to go to RWD fast.
GMC: actually, for hybrids, they'd fit in. If they could get a Subaru certified as a truck, it would do wonder for their CAFE numbers.
I can see different divisions getting different models. It's a tough one. If I could choose, it would be none. If I had to pick, Olds.
Subaru's two AWD systems are both dependant on a longitudinally mounted engine. Can you think of one GM product that isn't a truck, van, SUV, f-body or corvette that has a longitudinally mounted engine?
Me neither. So I have no idea if GM is going to adapt some Subaru technology in GM-branded vehicles. Probably not, IMHO. Use it in a fresh redesign or wholly new "co-branded" vehicle, maybe.
Actually, pretty soon the Blazer will have a longitudinally mounted in-line six. Oops, that's a truck. The engine could be adapted to a car platform with a Subaru AWD system, though. Build it to replace the silly Aztec.
You're right about the co-branding. GM is wasting money selling the lame rental car Cavalier and the small Saturns, none of which produce a significant profit. Sure, Saturn finally has an operating profit, but how will they recover the 7 billion invested?
They sell the Prizm, so I say drop the GM designed small cars and focus on more profitable trucks. Then sell the Prizm to the mainstream and a rebadged Subaru as a hybrid to the active lifestyle crowd.
You're right about the north/south engine configuration issue. Which leads me to to think the new GM product will indeed be just a rebadged Subaru.
I do think that would be a bad idea. My sense is the public is (finally!) getting tired of badge-enginnered vehicles. It certainly didn't do Honda and Acura any good. Chrysler and Ford are taking steps ("baby step"s, but steps none the less) to separate some of their models. I am kind of surprised by the Escape/Tribute, however.
The bottom line is always profit, so the Escape and Tribute are about sharing platform costs to increase profits.
They've tried to differentiate, with Mazda taking the sporty handling route, but where's the extra power? The LSD? Full time AWD? Traction control? Stability control? Heck, even a 5 speed with the V6? All MIA.
VW does well here. It's hard to believe the Golf and TT are on the same platform. And don't forget the Skoda and Seat models in Europe! Talk about flexibility, and each has a character its own. It's much more than just badge engineering.
Drew: I hear you, but the Prizm and Subaru offerings could do the same, while cutting costs and eliminating products noone (except fleet managers) want anyway.
I have no problems with sharing platforms to save costs. VW and Audi are excellent examples. So is the new Lincoln LS and Jaguar S-Type. These vehicles are clearly not badge-enginnered. Same hold true for Subaru. The Impreza, Forester and Legacy, as we all know, share quite a bit of mechanical hardware, yet are all quite different vehicles.
The same can't be said of any of the GM or Chrysler mini-vans, plus a number of other vehicles including the Escape and Tribute.
PS One exception for D/C. The PT Cruiser is quite different than the Neon. 4 speed auto (vs. 3), different engine (still parts bin, but better), completely different in character, and heck, it's even a truck. Maybe they're learning.
The PT Cruiser is a knockout! Believe it or not, my 17-year daughter, who is somewhat into cars, hates the PT Cruiser. My wife and I think it's great. Go figure.
They've been covering Subaru a lot in recent weeks. There was a tidbit about a GT sedan, which was very good overall. Then a side bar about the Impreza S201, with 296hp, for Japan only (as usual).
There you go, Patti, our biggest complaint. Why not some for us? I'd like a B4 RSK for the wife, a WRX for myself, and I'd keep the Forester for weekend outings. That'd be 3 Soobs, a darn nice fleet if you ask me.
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Comments
I do like cruise control though. But that's because our roads are straight and boring here in Kansas and my butt & right leg really like being able to move around. ABS is also good since I can't duplicate its effects.
-Colin
ADA is similar to the system that MB will be offering on the 2001 S-class. MB calls their system Distronic and it uses a radar gun mounted a few inches behind the front grill. The radar gun can scan the road up to 150 metres in advance. I believe that you set your vehicle x seconds behind the car in front of you and the system will compensate as necessary. However, it will only provide up to 20% of maximum braking power. If more is necessary, a warning will be displayed in the multi-function display in the middle of the speedometer, and a chime/buzzer will sound.
This system has been available in Europe for approximately 1-2 years already, but MB claims that they're still "tuning" if for North American driving styles and roads (read liability concerns). It is a rather expensive US$2000+ option though. As soon as an S-class fitted with it is available for a test drive, I'll let you all know how useful it is. Intial tests (in Europe) have been very positive. I bet that the Subaru system is slightly cheaper though, since it doesn't use a radar gun.
You can read about Distronic here.
Drew
cruise control for years. Nope, ani't saying
that I liked it on the other hand.
I've heard it said that some folks did'nt want
Electricity in the old days because they did'nt
think it would last. All this new technology is
the way to go IMO and with more and more folks
on the road,control is a must. Life safety in
the automotive arena should be first concern.
I guess the future Subaru's will be much like
the Jetson's sedan after all w/ the way it's
going. Seems Kinda sad computers controlling
cars, what next! I'm suspicious of anything
when I don't understand how it works, yet can
adapt quickly, then wonder how I ever lived
without it.
We are talking "future" here, but with some of
the inventions being dicussed,the future
is a short trip.
Bye Ya'll
Usual Driving Method:
1) Watch the road, proactively and defensively.
2) React as necessary.
ADA/Distronic Method:
1) Set your vehicle x seconds behind the vehicle in front of you.
2) Your vehicle will respond to close intrusions, if necessary, but only with 20% capability.
3) If it is determined that more stopping power is necessary, the vehicle will provide visual and auditory reminders.
4) If your sorry [non-permissible content removed] is still alive, and if you still have enough driving skill left in your passive little body to react to the situation, you may still have time to survive.
Another point: when I lived in California and did a lot of freeway driving, there were numerous times that someone might edge in front of me, but with someone right on my tail a braking maneuver would be the absolute WRONG thing to do.
I can't understand the effort made on gimmicks, (gimmicks that will encourage more passivity) when they could be making cars with better braking systems, more responsive handling and steering, and better visibility.
Randy
PS. Texsubaru -- I just find that I'm a more involved driver when I don't use Cruise Control. To each his (or her) own.
I think I'm a pretty good driver, and my reaction time is still fairly quick despite the advancing years. Far be it from however to disabuse a system that would alert me, like my wife did, to something I missed seeing. The moral, to me, is that a system that works reliably and adds some measure to the safety equation can be a good thing, if perhaps only sometimes, to just about everyone. Cruise control, though not a safety tool, is nevertheless enormously useful on open highways. Over-reliance on any of these types of doodads is unwise, but that is not to say that folks who use them are passive occupants of their vehicles!
Espousing moderation,
WDB
Don't laugh, this happened when Greyhound buses were equipped with similar radar (imagine the poor braking a bus has, too!). They had to remove the system entirely.
Do you know which band the radar uses?
I like cruise, but only for longer trips, never in day to day driving. With so much traffic nowadays, I get rare chances to even use it.
Tuning would mean everything. It would have to keep a safe distance from the car ahead, not 2 seconds, but more.
I'm more concerned about the navigation systems, internet, and e-mail. They should only work if they car is in Park or Neutral.
I'll take VDC or traction control as long as there's an off button.
-juice
Ken, thanks for the ADA links. Pretty cool videos. Glad you're here to make sense of the Japanese. Near the last quarter of the last (4th) video, I believe the speaker is pronouncing "Subaru ADA", though it's certainly a non-English pronounciation. I think we covered this before but I don't recall the details.
Drew, thanks for the Distronic link; I also think the "Keyless Go" (keyless ignition, doors, and trunk) are a neat feature (I guess you get what you pay for
WDB, <276</A>> well said.
Cruise control does have the disadvantage that it can lull the driver to inattention (just as coffee or soda or children can distract), but as Colin and texsubaru said, it's helpful on long trips (I too like to shift seating position); there are two sides to every coin. Cruise is also helpful to avoid speeding tickets, or even "push the envelope" to find the sweet spot between the speed limit and the threshold at which an officer will cite you (9-10 mph on the interstates around DC, it seems). I find it very helpful to maintain a safe speed (to allow reaction time for children playing, pedestrians, bicyclists, etc.) on straight, broad residential streets or roads through a park, where the speeds are 25 mph and it's easy to creep up over the limit.
..Mike
..Mike
Bob
Mike -- If you want to pronounce Subaru like a true native, place the accent on the second syllable (ie. SuBAru). American-English pronunciations tend to incorrectly place the accent on the first and last syllable and make the 'a' sound like 'u' (ie. SUbuRU).
PS - We missed you at the Rocks, hope the move is entering the final stages.
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
FYI, we have photo radar vans here, which are basically special (and ordinary looking) GMC Safari vans with a forward facing radar gun and camera. If you exceed the speed limit, the computer will automatically take a picture of your vehicle (there's a really bright but brief, strobe light flash set outside), match your license plate # and write up a ticket for you. You'll then get a ticket, as well as a picture of your vehicle in the mail. Sneaky bastards! :-) But, since I generally don't speed, I haven't been caught (yet). Fines can run up to a few hundred bucks, especially if you're caught in a school zone.
"The sensor for the optional Distronic intelligent cruise control; concealed behind the grille, can pinpoint the car ahead to within centimetres. Checking the following distance you select and your own speed, the system adjusts the throttle and brakes to help you maintain the desired following distance."
There is also a disclaimer at the bottom of the page, similar to the SRS disclaimers:
"Distronic intelligent cruise control is no substitute for active driving involvement. It can neither recognise nor predict the curvature and lane layout of the road ahead (so in this respect, it is not as good as the Subaru's ADA) or the movement of vehicles ahead, and it can only apply a maximum of 25% of full braking power. It is the driver's responsibility at all times to be attentive to traffic and road conditions, and to provide the steering, braking, and other driving iinputs necessary to retain control of the vehicle."
Drew
Photo radar is pure taxation without representation. I'm totally against it.
-juice
Interesting information. I would imagine we would see a similar disclaimer for ADA if it were ever to come to N. America.
The Subaru website indicates that ADA can sense multiple vehicles up ahead of you including road curvature. I guess that's where CCDs would come in handy. However, I would imagine that it would take some "localization" efforts to make the same system work since road markers would vary between countries (and states!).
My dad's 4Runner has express up&down front side windows. I'm quite jealous, and a bit miffed considering the insignificant cost.
-Colin
You sure you're the same Colin?
-juice
But I just thought it was interesting since all these doodads can't cost much extra... especially the express power windows.
-Colin
So to them it adds up to maybe $20 grand per month in profit. That's how they look at it.
But what about pleasing an extra 5% of customers, that will later buy another one and give you $5000 profit per purchase?
Heck, that probably amounts to MORE profit, not less.
-juice
PS Funny thing is I ordered the dual cup-holder, if only out of curiosity. It's just $15, probably $2 more than the single one costs to produce (hey, at least they threw that in!)
Re your post #276, you might want to take a look at this Townhall forum:
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/engaged/edmund.cgi?c=Classics&f=0&t=127&q=0-
Drew, I can easily answer that for you. It's part of the same conspiracy to keep Subaru turbos (Legacy B4 RSK) out of North America! Or maybe they use the same "marketing" consultants as SoA. Hehe.
Ken, LOL! But they did fix the cup holders, at least between the Legacy MY91 and 00.
..Mike
..Mike
..Mike
The 8.5" of clearance and the low range (I believe it had it, right?) would match well with the marketing of the Forester.
See what happens to tuner cars? I'm sure it was the Eaton blower that made it stall...
-juice
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20000620/bs/autos_gm_dc_8.html
http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/000529/t98984.html
Basically both news shorts (one's dated today, and the other is dated May 29) talk about GM building and branding a hybrid based on the Subaru Forester. There's also mention of them building a small car, but that is more likely with the GM - Suzuki affiliation, than with Subaru.
-ash
I suspect it will have 3 rows of seats. I also believe it will be sold as a GM vehicle as well as a Subaru.
Bob
I've been hearing about that bigger one too, but they called it an SUW, like the Outback, and promised more power than the H6 will offer, but only in 2005!
Just use a Subaru platform and a boxer engine with AWD. If GM wants to sell a version too, fine.
-juice
The question is: which GM division is likely to get it? My pick is Oldsmobile, if only because Olds seems to be appealing to a more sophisticated audience. Saturn would be my second pick.
I just hope it's not Buick (for oldsters only) or Pontiac (too weird!).
Bob
The AWD Aztec is not only ugly, but offers pitiful fuel efficiency and somehow also manages to be slow, but at least it has poor ground clearance, is expensive, and doesn't offer 3rd row seating!
The guy who revived Subaru is leaving SoA, Muller is his name I believe, to head up a venture capital firm. Let's hope they don't completely lose their minds without him.
-juice
Bob
Hint to GM: we'll notice.
-juice
PS pardon my spelling in the previous post, too lazy for spell check
Bob
Imagine the Aztek with a bunch of extra hood scoops, stickers and badges (and it's already the ugliest vehicle on the road). Unfortunately, with it being aimed at the "Active" market, this might be the likely place for a "dose" of Subaru.
They'll probably think it's too "conservative" though, and add a 15 foot spoiler in the back, gills along the side, hood louvers, side skirts, and two dozen stickers, plus maybe a stripe or two.
Then they'll remove the supercharger so it's just a pretender
Seriously, back to Bob's question:
Chevy: no way. Value division won't mate well with AWD.
Pontiac: possibly, especially for ST-X and hybrids. Remember the Salsa?
Olds: image fits, and they're for import intenders.
Buick: heck no. Grandpa does not want AWD.
Cadillac: very unlikely. They are FWD mostly, and need to go to RWD fast.
GMC: actually, for hybrids, they'd fit in. If they could get a Subaru certified as a truck, it would do wonder for their CAFE numbers.
I can see different divisions getting different models. It's a tough one. If I could choose, it would be none. If I had to pick, Olds.
-juice
Bob
They have two wagons already (SW and LW) and an SUV is already in the works, so that makes three wagon bodystyles.
AWD wagons are Subaru's strength, so the other divisions need it more.
-juice
Subaru's two AWD systems are both dependant on a longitudinally mounted engine. Can you think of one GM product that isn't a truck, van, SUV, f-body or corvette that has a longitudinally mounted engine?
Me neither. So I have no idea if GM is going to adapt some Subaru technology in GM-branded vehicles. Probably not, IMHO. Use it in a fresh redesign or wholly new "co-branded" vehicle, maybe.
-Colin
You're right about the co-branding. GM is wasting money selling the lame rental car Cavalier and the small Saturns, none of which produce a significant profit. Sure, Saturn finally has an operating profit, but how will they recover the 7 billion invested?
They sell the Prizm, so I say drop the GM designed small cars and focus on more profitable trucks. Then sell the Prizm to the mainstream and a rebadged Subaru as a hybrid to the active lifestyle crowd.
Whaddaya think?
-juice
I do think that would be a bad idea. My sense is the public is (finally!) getting tired of badge-enginnered vehicles. It certainly didn't do Honda and Acura any good. Chrysler and Ford are taking steps ("baby step"s, but steps none the less) to separate some of their models. I am kind of surprised by the Escape/Tribute, however.
Bob
They've tried to differentiate, with Mazda taking the sporty handling route, but where's the extra power? The LSD? Full time AWD? Traction control? Stability control? Heck, even a 5 speed with the V6? All MIA.
VW does well here. It's hard to believe the Golf and TT are on the same platform. And don't forget the Skoda and Seat models in Europe! Talk about flexibility, and each has a character its own. It's much more than just badge engineering.
Drew: I hear you, but the Prizm and Subaru offerings could do the same, while cutting costs and eliminating products noone (except fleet managers) want anyway.
-juice
The same can't be said of any of the GM or Chrysler mini-vans, plus a number of other vehicles including the Escape and Tribute.
Bob
The Audi TT is sweet. The brushed aluminum is gorgeous, 225hp, 6 speed, Quattro.
Hard to believe the VW Golf TDI shares a platform with it!
-juice
Bob
They gave it a good review, but wished for more power. Seems like I've heard that somewhere before.
Come on MY 2002!
Bob
There you go, Patti, our biggest complaint. Why not some for us? I'd like a B4 RSK for the wife, a WRX for myself, and I'd keep the Forester for weekend outings. That'd be 3 Soobs, a darn nice fleet if you ask me.
Now I can't wait to read my Autoweek.
-juice
It will be interesting to see how the new H-6 Outback will compare with this vehicle, both in performance and in price.
Bob