That is exactly what I wanted to do, you could probably pull closer to 280hp out of it. Then I thought about the warranty issues, and what not, decided against it, figure I'll pick up an SVX or WRX when my XT6 passes away.
what makes the Buffalo turn? This talk about Subaru going up market only to fail is,..well anyones guess. But saying that Subaru can't compete, should'nt try, or stick to what they know is a recipe for a cold dog soup and rainbow pie if I ever one.
This company has got to march on, less it's falls by the wayside. Like some many other areas of Services. Folks can log on to a trend, fade, whatever in a New York minute. The consumers can turn just as quick as the economy or a herd of Buffalo. Just think about it.
I seem to recall Juice targeted the L.L. Bean model at $30,000 and the VDC H6 at $32,000. He said increased content as well as the H6 engine would account for the increases!
Are we sure he doesn't have an inside track to Fuji?
In addition to those new announced models already slated for production, I would love to see Subaru add the following:
1. A 2-seat roadster based on the new Impreza mechanicals. Sort of a Miata/S2000 fighter with AWD, and priced somewhere between those two. Perhaps using the "Brighton" name? How about Turbo Brighton?!?!
If you recall, several years ago, at the Tokyo Motor Show, Subaru showed such a vehicle. Whatever happened to it?
2. Again using the Impreza platform, offer a true Jeep Wrangler competitor. Obviously I'm talking about an industrial-strength Impreza platform!
I'm talking about a vehicle that can do "anything" a Jeep Wrangler can do, but with the sophistication and comfort that is totally alien to the Wrangler. I'm sure Subaru can do it ... if they wanted to.
3. A H-6 2-door coupe based off the new Legacy GT (to keep costs in line). A modern SVX, if you will, and a strong competitor for the Acura CL S-Type. That would mean offering a larger and tweaked H-6, say around 3.2 - 3.3 liters, with around 270 HP. Also including a 6-speed manual, and a 5-speed automatic with tip-tronic shifting capability.
As a matter of fact, the above powertrain should become standard in the GT too!
don -- juice did have an inside track, he was using numbers (correct ones, evidently) 'leaked' by "Becker Subaru" in alt.autos.subaru.
bob -- #1 already exists, it's called a Delfino. British kit car with WRX drivetrain. Hasn't seen production (yet) though. #2 requires a new chassis and that's too expensive for FHI right now, even with GM's help. #3 could happen, but let's see what they have planned for the new Legacy GT -- 4 cylinder turbo or the new H6.
1. I want a "factory" Subaru roadster, not a kit car.
2. It may be costly, but it sure would be fun! Nobody has seriously challenged the Jeep Wrangler in this country. A Subaru with a H-4 2.5, and a supercharged H-4 2.5, similar to the STX concept would make for perfect engines choices. I would also like to see a tri-range (not dual-range) transmission used. The third range would be a true "deep" low for serious off-roading.
3. I agree. I do feel, however, that the GT models should receive a tuned, and more powerful version of the new H-6 that is "exclusive" to the GT range. That would make the GT lineup really standout from the other Subaru models. If the GT gets the same H-6 engine that the Outbacks get, it will always remain in their shadow. I want to see the GT models really standout, and truly live up to the "GT" label.
Yep, I'd love for the GT to be like the B4, unfortunately I think subaru has too much of a niche market image to really crawl out of it quickly. The GT with an SVX engine would be nice Heck I'd love to have the SVX back period.
The GT Wagon I test drove was pathetic. I had my deposit in hand and was about to order it until I drove it. It's too much of a porker, it's like 3500lbs dry, my '97 rodeo was 3600lbs dry and had a 190hp V6 SOHC. Loaded down the GT was way slow.
I'd love to see a big subie, like the size of an A8 with a flat 6 or flat 8 and about 400hp. A luxo full size AWD kick the pants off the lexus and audis.
Imagine an AWD, flat 8, with HID, leather, auto temp controls, Bose or equivilent stereo, GPS nav, etc. with a ton of HP, and a ride like a limo....All priced at say $39K-$42K... They could take a significant portion of the luxo market with that.
I think the Legacy L should get, as an option, the new H-6 in its current state of tune. This would be Subaru's mass-market, family-oriented Subaru sedan and Wagon, set up to do battle with the V6 Accords, Camarys, etc. Certainly "not" a niche vehicle.
The GTs should be something special, and set apart from all the other Subarus, including the Outbacks. I see the GTs as doing battle (from a performance standpoint, but less expensive) with the Acura TL/CLs, the 3-Series BMW, the Audi A4s, etc. To do so, they need more power than the H-6 offers.
The GTs should also receive front seats with larger side bolsters; a 5-speed, tip-tronic automatic; and the long-rumored, close-ratio, 6-speed manual that is being developed for the home-market WRX; and 17" wheels.
To add frosting to the cake, it would be great if Subaru offered a full-blown, performance-oriented GT (B-6 Turbo?), to go head-to-head with the Audi S-4, BMW's M3, and the Mercedes AMG C-Class models. Yeah, it would be very expensive, but would still be less costly than the above mentioned euro models. Like the WRX, it would be for hard-core Subaru performance freaks.
I don't think the new H-6 Outback VDC will be successful in the market.
Why? Two reasons:
1. I don't think too many people, in that market, will be willing to spend the extra $2400 (over the LL Bean model) for this feature, and...
2. Having two premium H-6 models will be confusing to many customers. I think most people will opt for the cheaper LL Bean model. Like the Outback sedan, it seems to me to be a fish-out-of-water. It just doesn't seem to make much sense.
I think the VDC feature will be much more marketable (and appreciated) if offered as part of the GT package.
I think it will take until 2005 before Subaru can complete its (up)market realignment. This has to be done slowly, so as to not to confuse or turn off customers. In the meantime, there will be some model lapses and model bloating. Here's what I think could very easily occur over the next five years:
1. The current 4-model Outback lineup will become a 2-model Outback lineup again.
I think VDC Outback will be folded into the LL Bean Outback. Meaning the LL Bean will get the VDC and trick audio system from the current VDC.
I think the Outback Limited will disappear, with the leather and dual moonroofs becoming options on the base Outback. I think the H-6 will also become an option on this model.
2. I think the items I mentioned in post #385 could occur.
3. I predict the Legacy L will drop the "L", and will just be called the Legacy, much like the base Outback is just called the Outback.
4. If Subaru does replace the 4EAT with a 5EAT, as I predict by 2005; the 5-speed manual will disappear from the Outback lineup. As we all know, it's increasing difficult to find 5-speed manuals in Legacys and Outbacks on the dealer's lots. A 5-speed automatic will be the final nail in the coffin.
I'm pretty certain Subaru will have 5EAT by 2005, even though I've not read anything to confirm this. They have to, because every body else will have one. Right now 5-speed automatics are restricted to premium brands. That's about to change. It's been reported that the new Civic, due out this fall, will have 5-speed automatic. If the Civic gets a 5-speed automatic, you know every Honda (and Toyota, etc.) will be offering that feature shortly too. So will Subaru.
I just read that the all-new, yet to be announced BMW 7 Series will get a 6-speed automatic, as will the next E-Class Mercedes. The 7 Series BMW will also offer AWD as an option for the first time too. So, 5-speed automatics "for the masses" is not far off.
5. 5-speed manuals will be found only on "entry-level family" (Legacy H-4) models, "casual-sporting" (Impreza RS) models. 6-speed manuals will be found on "hard-core-sporting" (WRX) models and "premium-sporting" (Legacy GT H-6 & GT H-6 Turbo) models.
The 6-speed manual has been rumored for the new WRX. The USA may not get it right away, but we should eventually get it. I can't believe that Subaru would go to the trouble and costs to develop a 6-speed manual "just" for the WRX. I'm sure it will appear on other sporting models too. High-performance Legacys seems to be a natural for it.
6. I think the 2.5 H-4 will get a performance boost to around 175-180 HP, with perhaps a low-boost supercharged version (from the STX) putting out around 205-210 HP. This SC engine could make its way into the Forester.
7. In addition to the limited-edition performance-oriented Impreza (WRX), and perhaps (my) prediction of a Legacy (GT-Turbo), I think we could also see a performance-oriented Forester. However, unlike the Impreza/Legacy performance models, I predict (hope) that Forester would be more off-road oriented in terms of equipment and content -- a "true" crossover vehicle, equally at home in the rough as on the road.
Along with a 6-speed automatic, and an AWD option, the new BMW 7 Series will come equipped with a 36 volt electrical system. According to Motor Trend 36-volt electrical systems will become commonplace within the next 10 years, because of the increased (electrical) power demands that new cars require.
Patti, is Subaru working on such a system, and if so, when can we expect to see it appear on a Subaru?
I'm curious as to where you read that BMW was going to offer an AWD option for the next gen-2002 7 series sedan. Was it Motor Trend? I've been waiting for a 4-matic version of the S-class to appear, but that doesn't look likely at least till MY2003. :-(
WRT the 36 volt electrical system, I wonder how easy it will be to get batteries. BMWs are already expensive to buy and to maintain as it is, but to have to buy something simple like a battery from them would be...#$%&#@!
I also understand that all the car manufacturers are expected to eventually go to 36v systems (as I understand it,to better power all the laptops, GPS, cell phones, OnStar-like stuff, etc., that is starting to get plugged into autos these days). But, like most things, it'll probably be a bit of a pain to be the owner of the early-adopter cars like, apparently, BMW.
I read it (AWD & 36 Volts in BMW 7 Series) in the current issue of Motor Trend. It came in the mail the other day.
I do remember reading somewhere(?) recently that the S-Class will also get AWD (4matic) as an option sometime in the future.
As with just about all high-tech stuff, you will see it in the premium brands first. When it eventually trickles down to mainstream brands, hopefully it won't be too expensive (yeah, right!).
The Legacy with the H6 can't compete with the other "family sedans" Think about it. Most people complain about the bad gas milage on the H4 legacy, let alone an H6 model. Subaru doesn't have the build quality to compete with the BMWs/Acuras, etc. You need to have different divisions in the US market in order to compete on a higher level. Honda never moved up-market til they introduced the acura line, and the same goes for toyota.
No matter how good we all know the AWD is, the US market looks at the MPG #s and the $ figures, and the image. Most of the people in the US market are lemmings, following the rest of the flock to the CRV/Rav 4, and Camary/Accord.
Thanks Bob. I thought it might be in the August edition of MT. I'll definitely check it out when I get a chance.
If the new 7-series does indeed have the 36 volt electrical system, this would be one ofthe reasons why I would definitely avoid it for a while. I'd rather not be a beta tester thank you.
The German makes are still not as reliable (as the Japanese) as far as electronics goes. The new BMW X5 SUV is a prime example of this. It has been suffering from numerous electrical gremlins ranging from turn signals working sporatically, to the engine suddenly stalling.
The 3rd generation MB modular 4-matic system is currently being developed, and it is supposed to be able to work on the current S-class. I've no idea if MB will offer it on the S-class in the near future though (hopefully they will, and soon).
I think there is a market between the mass-market Toyotas, etc., and the up-market Lexus, etc. I think that's where Subaru is headed.
Subaru learned the hard way not to compete head-to-head with the large corporations. They have been very successful at carving out a special niche for themselves with the Outback concept. If they want to be successful with the Impreza and Legacy they have to do the same thing -- find a special niche for those vehicles. Affordable performance vehicles appears to be that niche.
Bob, you're dead-on about Subaru's niche. The Outback has saved SOA from near bankruptcy in the early 90s. I think for the company to be successful, it has to continue to exploit whatever consumers want right now -- and good or bad that happens to be SUVs. Subaru has a good thing going with its hybrids, but there's some fierce competition coming up (like the Escape & Tribute).
The Legacy is a great car, but when compared to other offerings from Honda, Toyota, VW, and even domestic manafacturers, the only thing that differentiates the Legacy is all AWD. And if you don't need that, than many of the other offerings are a better deal in cost, mileage, & power. Not something we like to hear, but it's true.
AND here I thought I was the only critic of the H6!!! Way back when on the Subaru Wagons group I claimed that the H6 was a "buzz kill" and that I did not really understand what they were trying to do with it. You know.....give it something different and BETTER (not just an alternative but THE alternative). I guess the Forrestor is the best example. Its not just different than the RAV4 and CR-V.....it smokes them. More power, better road manners, more quiet, just plain better. In its current state, the VDC is an alternative to the 4-Motion BUT will it feel as expensive as the baby Audi? Will it get Passat shoppers into Subaru showrooms? I dont know but its going to be interesting to see. Unless the street price is below $30k for the VDC its gonna take a beating in the Passat/A4 range. Most people will not pay $32+k for a Subaru. Cracking that market will take time. What would fix it NOW?
A little more would have made the VDC A LOT better.... My VDC would be: 1) 250+bhp for $32k (alternative but more is always better with hp:)). 250hp puts it in Audi All-road range and more than the Volvo XC. In other words, make Volvo nervous not WV. 2) HID option an absolute must (different AND better). I was VERY VERY VERY disappointed not to see it. Market as another safety feature like the side air bags on my Limited. 3) Huge vented dics on all fours. 60-0 in the 120s.
I got our 2.5L H4 2k OB Ltd. for about $27k Loaded with all kinds of stuff. I really like it and would buy another with H4 PII engine for that price. For me to make the jump to $30+k street price Subaru better show up with more than an H6 with 212hp and VDC. They are gonna have to so I'll wait until their prices drop, I build up more Subaru dollars, and or they decide to include what I want. Just one future Subaru buyers opnion.
$32K is a "huge" jump over the current Outback Limited. I think a lot of buyers will feel the same. That's why I think the LL Bean version will outsell the VDC by a long shot.
Long post.... I very seriously doubt that the VDC will sell for $32k for very long. I'm guessing that within 6 months from introduction they will moving out at or most likely $30k or at the usual $200-300 over invoice. I bet the LL Bean eventually sells for basically $1000 more (or less) than my 2K OB 2.5L F4 Limited. So my guess $28k for the LL Bean base and $30k for the VDC base is the limit of what people will pay for a Subaru. Any other predictions here? My reasons follow:
None of this means that I dont like Subarus!!! I'm earning Subaru dollars to buy another one in a couple of years. We really like the one we currently have. Even if I REALLY REALLY like them, $32K? Then taxes and finance.....thats a big chunk of change for a car thats not an Audi/Lexus/Acura or other fancy name. I'll be getting another Subaru but it will not be the VDC or the LL Bean unless they become good values. Lets see if the Impreza Turbo comes in under $25k. Now that would be a good buy. Without having driven it (only seen), the VDC flavors of Outback appears to be in for a beating in its price range. Just for comparison one can get the Lexus RX300 AWD in the same range (around $34k). The RX300 FWD can be had for even less. For that you get more horsepower, more torque, more towing, better brakes (actually fantastic brakes), likely better acceleration, better warranty, better service, better resale, of course its a Lexus so you also get the fancy factor too. Ofcourse, on the other hand it is a little smaller and will cost you more in insurance. Still, my feeling is that in that price range the RX300 is a MUCH better buy. In fact in the $30-35k range the RX300 is my pick. To suprass the RX300, or something similar, in every way should have been Subarus target. BUT wait it gets much worse for Subaru which is now also in spitting distance of the (in no particular order): 1) Infiniti QX4 $33.9k (MSRP is $35.5k) 2) Toyota 4-Runner Limited $34k (MSRP is $36.8k) 3) Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited AWD $32k (MSRP is $34.6k) 4) Nissan Pathfinder XE $28.2k (MSRP is $29.6k) 5) VW Passat 4-Motion GLX 2.8 $31.7k (Sell for $32-33k loaded around here) 6) BMW 323iT Sport Wagon $29.2k (about $3000 more for the good stuff) 7) Audi A4 2.8 Quattro Wagon $30.1 (MSRP is $31.5k) About $3000 more for the good stuff. 8) Audi A6 Avant (Wagon) $34.8k (MSRP is $36.9k) 9) Saab 9-5 2.3t Wagon $31.7k (MSRP is $33.1k) 10) Volvo V70 GLT $31.9 (MSRP is $33.0k) 11) Volvo V70 T5 M Wagon $32.6 (MSRP is $33.4k) I'm sure I missed some......Ofcourse some have AWD and some dont but all are wagons, hybrids, or sport utes or some sort. **Most of these are without destination charge and are taken from Edmunds or the manufacturers sites. The reason I have them is my parents were recently car shopping in the $30-35k range. They went with a Camry XLE V6 (instead of the similar Lexus ES300) after driving all of the above and many more. These are most of the cars, hybrids, and sport utes that I would drive if I was shopping in the $30-35k range. Somehow I dont think that Subaru VDC would have won out. If Subaru is going to get into the $30-35k range of wagons, hybrids, and sport utes.....They are no longer a good value in my opnion. The LL Bean edition on the other hand as you suggested seems interesting. BUT I have not really looked at the list of standard features. Am I gonna have to pay pay for a 6-CD changer, speaker upgrade, and stuff like that, rear gate bar, and stuff like that or does it some included? If it does then $28k is very interesting. If I have to start adding things then $28k+2k is not so interesting. Which brings be back to what they heck they were thinking with the VDC at $32k???????
Perhaps SoA has introduced these models at a higher price point because they are not yet in a position to push the H-6 down the line cost-effectively. Earlier press releases hinted at a low supply, so the price maybe fits for those early adopters (and Subaru fans) who always pay the premium.
From a marketing perspective, having more powerful/fancy models available may actually increase interest in the entire range, for a number of reasons.
I don't defend the pricing, but one might argue that UNTIL Subaru has vehicles at those price points, they will not successfully convince the market that they deserve to be there. Hmmm....
I've heard plenty of shocked people say this in the past but they are willing to spend it now. The same will happen w/Subaru w/the H6 if they know how to market it successfully. I think it may be a mute point to say that people wont't be willing to pay over $30k for a Subaru. The other fact is that Soobs very rarely sell for full retail. My 00 OB Ltd wagon retailed a shade over $29k in Feb. I paid (admittedly a bit high, but it was winter) $26,800. So a top of the line VDC will actually sell around $30k or less. Most VW's don't have the supply available to dicker much, plus the dealers tend to be profit-whores (IMHO). Just my .02.
$27,500 for my Trooper LS with only 1 option: HUGE Moonroof
6 disk in dash auto climate control V6, 3.5L, 215hp, 230lb torque 5000 lb towing AWD power everything, heated seats, power driver and pass seats, 16" wheels, tinted windows, power folding and heated mirrors, Limited Slip Diff, skid plates, in glass antenna, 10/120K drivetrain warranty, 3/50K bumper to bumper, better fit and finish than the soobies, heated seats, 60/40 split folding RECLINING rear seats. Fantastic 4wheel disc brakes, 4 wheel ABS.
I bought this over the Legacy GT Wagon cause for the $3500 more it was going to cost me, I got a lot more value. Compared to say an OB Limited or the VDC, you are talking almost $4000 less than the VDC. How could subaru compare?
$32K for a VW?! (barresa11): But there is a big difference there!!! VW has an upscale brand (Audi) which they make no secret about filtering down the goodies. So their market war cry is that you get an Audi-light when you buy a VW. So you see in the minds of some its a $32k bargain.....a Jedi mind trick. I'm pretty sure thats why their prices crept up starting in about 1997 when the A6 and the Passat started to look really similar.
RE: Trooper LS (paisan): 1) I think that FHI owns both Subaru and Isuzu so in your case it may be one hand paying the other.
2) "How could subaru compare?" to defend Subaru a little.......We (mostly my wife) selected the 2k OB Ltd. over the loaded Trooper LS and many other sport-utes because of looks, driving feel (position/road manners/seats), fit and finish, proven reliability, 27-29mpg on the highway, cheap insurance. As far as utes go the Trooper is pretty reliable and I like it but the 4 samples we had to look at did not have good fit and finish. In fact, in all four some of the interior plastic (at the seams) did not fit together properly (evenly) and the glove compartment did not close correctly. One example had a badly misaligned door which was difficult to close. Also we took our 2k OB Ltd. home for about $27k with every option (most on your list) we wanted including 7 year/100k warranty. BUT I can see the attraction of the Trooper and similar mid-small utes.
really limits the supply of the VDC, they might get close to sticker price. It's the old supply vs. demand equation.
That may be counter-productive, however. Here Subaru comes out with this neat vehicle, gets everybody excited about it, then sticks it to the customer with poor availability/high prices. It's a good way to piss off potential customers.
I agree with everyones comments about the tough competition in the $30K - $40K market. Another tough new competitor in that market is the new 7-passenger Acura MDX. I would pick this over a Lexus RX300 (or an Outback VDC) any day of the week.
Yes, the MDX is a bit more than a VDC, but you begin to wonder when the prices aren't that far apart. The difference in monthly car-payment costs is probably not that great between a VDC and a MDX. And... that what most people look at, the monthly "nut." Can I afford the extra $50 or so? I think most people looking in the #30K + price range probably could afford the more expensive vehicle, if they really felt it was worth it.
Just thought I'd chime in ... while the H6 is a welcome addition, I agree with the general consensus that the market will have a hard time shelling out $32 K for a Subaru VDC given the other potential buys in that prce range. The added tech provided by the VDC, for most families, will not be worth the extra cash. If FHI had decided to drop the H6 with VDC into the Legacy GT, then I think it would have made an excellent competitor to the Passat GLX 4motion.
Nematode, $30-35K range for a RX300 AWD?? That's pushing it -- most come fairly loaded and seem to still be going for MSRP which is close to $37K. And, having taken my sister's RX thru wine country and down the coast recently, I'd pass on it -- way too much body roll thru the turns. I'd take any wagon incl the Subaru H6 or Passat over it any day. If you still were looking at a hybrid for under $40K, the new MDX looks like the one to get when it comes out since it will have many of the features that RX owners have been calling for -- nav system, memory seats, 3rd row seat. However, if history repeats itself, the limited production of the MDX and probable high demand may see some of the price gouging seen with the Odyssey.
prices of the 2001 Legacy and Outbacks from SOA, the base Outback costs $9000.00 less than the VDC model. Does anyone honestly believe that the Outback H6-VDC is $9000.00 better (or more desirable) than a 5-speed Outback wagon?
$9000. Wow!!! I guess thats why I thought Subaru would benefit from a upscale puppet brand with a fancy name. Perhaps thats what they want the Outback to become. Its not the way I would have spun off a new brand but I'm sure they know more about the market than I do. Then again $9000 is $9000. I kinda remember thinking the same thing with our OB Ltd. BUT to get the leather, side airbags, cold weather package, automatic transmission, and some other things it seemed worth it. I think the MSRP on ours with all the stuff we got was $28.5k but we paid way under $27k in the middle of winter. I guess the VDC would add the H6 and stability control for $4000 based on MSRP. Based on what we paid for our Ltd. it would add $5500 if the VDC sells near its MSRP.
nematode (from #404): wouldn't that be a Jetta Mind Trick?
I know this is off-topic in a way, but do y'all think VW will be successful with the upcoming Passat Plus (stretch wheelbase, V6 and maybe the A6 power choices), or will it confuse a buyer who might otherwise consider an Audi? Also, how about the impending W12 VW luxo-cruiser?
I was thinking about this last night as well. But I thought of it like this: the price increase is 130%-140% (for either the LL Bean or the VDC). Are you really getting 30%-40% more car for that money? or just a engine that gives you 30% more power?
Truth is, all they've really done is add a bigger engine, and more electronic toys to it. No better tires, suspension, handling, or even external appearance (beyond a H6-3.0 on the front).
Personally, I don't think it's worth it, especially when you can get the same car minus the upgraded engine for so much less. (Boy does the Legacy L look like a great deal now!) I know right off the bat, I would never spend more than the $21500 I did for my 5-speed OB w/winter package.
I guess, to expand on my last post. I stated that there would be a significant amount of people who will be willing to spend over $30k for a Soob if it's marketed successfully. I personally don't feel the H6 OB (the VDC in particular) is worth the extra amount over the H4 Ltd OB. If the difference was a couple of grand, then maybe. I would love to have the extra grunt of the H6, especially compared to my auto version of the H4 Ltd. The VDC would be nice too. The other options don't seem to justify the additional retail cost increase over an ideal increase (hoped for?)of $2000 - 2500. So, with the VDC (after subtracting the obvious big-ticket upgrades of 6 cyl and VDC) I would also get auto temp AC, rear map pockets, and a momo steering wheel. I already have the auto-dimming mirror, dual vanity mirrors, leather, dual sunroofs, winter pkg, 6-disc CD w/upgrade sound system, upgraded alarm, wood pkg., leather steering wheel and shift knob, etc. All this for close to 29k retail and 26.8k actual sale price. If I could get (which may be possible if supply is not curtailed) the VDC for a hair over 29k actual sell price then if would be a financially wise upgrade. Otherwise, I will hold onto my Soobie until the wheels fall off ( which will be long after it's paid for, of course!) The enthusiast portion of my brain will read the posts from the new H6 owners with envy though! :-)
To everyone picking the pricing on the H6 Outback models apart:
Most, if not all of you are indicating that the H6 Outbacks are too costly relative to other Outbacks and relative to what you want to pay. However, there are two facts to be considered here:
1. on paper they are priced with the competition, below the competition actually if you consider the near-luxury features. 2. no one has driven one yet, and it's quite easy to say you wouldn't want the extra power for X dollars when you haven't driven one with that extra power. (yes, they're heavier too. for shame.)
Additionally, for each of you that doesn't elect to pay that much for a Subaru, SOA is counting on new customers moving over from SUVs, Volvo wagons, etc. ($32k is nothing in the SUV market.) They are not trying to upgrade all the $23k Outback L owners to a H6.
I dont think that I am being overly ciritcal of the H6. I simply think the price is really high for what you get. Let me ask you this... Do you think that shoppers considering the Audi A4 2.8, Volvo 70 GLT series wagons, SAAB 9-5 series wagons, BMW 3 series wagons, Acura MDX hybrid, Lexus RX300 hybrid and others will 1) go look at the Subaru and then more importantly 2) buy the Subaru because its better? I'm not even sure the VDC is good enough on paper to even get through #1 EVEN if its acutally better (which none of us know yet). The way I see it: 1) Subaru has AWD but so will the Lexus and the Acura. BUT the RX300 and MDX will be in short supply so Subaru could get a foothold by having the VDC readily available. BUT they are going to be in very short supply so.....Anyway, most people shopping in this range dont put AWD on the top of their list of must haves. 2) Price. Relative to the Acura and Lexus the VDC will cost less relative to the A4 if may cost more. Several thousand less than the Acura and Lexus for sure though. BUT Subaru service is nowhere near the quality of some of the others and the Subaru name does not carry the same weight as any of the others. Additionally, the warranty on most of the other is better than Subaru offers. 3) Reliability is a push. Its a new model. 4) Performance? Dont really know but since there is no 5spd avail. there is no way it can run with the BMW, SAAB, or Volvo. Also in this price range it does not really vastly over power any of the others. It has less than some and more than others. 5) Name. Of the ones mentioned which one does not fit in the $30+k range? 6) Look. Looks the same as the 2k OB Ltd. Nice but will any of this get people into the showroom?
Additionally, where do you reside? Around here (St. Louis) most SUVs (Explorer, Trooper, and the like) can be had loaded and more in the $30-35k range.
Generally, people who buy Subarus are overly analytical and like numbers/facts/figures and love to compare stuff. I guess if thats NOT he market they are after........it might work. But would I but it? Nope. If the VDC was $29k LOADED street price. Yup. Its not that I dont like it. I just think its way overpriced. By about $3000 bucks. I think that Subaru should know that.
1) if you are over 5'5" tall, adjust the seat in a 2000 outback to your comfort. now hop in the backseat and note the leg, hip, shoulder and headroom. repeat this test in the A4 avant. any questions? don't even bother with the V40, it's a joke-- and the new V70 will start at $32k and can break $40k with ease properly equipped.
2) volvo and audi are both 4/50 warranty on everything. subaru is 3/36 bumper-to-bumper and 5/60 powertrain. seems like a wash to me, but some would prefer one over the other...
3) performance-- have you driven an A4 2.8Q Avant? I haven't. But I've driven the regular A4 2.8Q and it is damned slow. The Subaru will probably be equally slow (220HP to move 3600-3700lb isn't great). however it will be faster than the current 2.5L Outback, which I would classify as really damned slow. It can almost get out of it's own way. Unlike paisan though, this isn't my sort of car at all, I'm just discussing it.
I'll comment more on some of the other stuff after a few others have a chance to chew on what I've posted.
1) The A4 Avant is small but not that small. Anyone wanting a lot bigger with go minivan or Volvo. I totally agree on the V40 and did no mention it. 2) The Volvo V70 GLT is $35-36k well equipped. It can hit $40 if you get everything. 3) The Avant is a better performer than the current OB. BUT neither are anywhere near SAAB, Volvo, or BMW. Unlike some, I dont find the current OB under powered. It gets to 60 in about 12sec. Thats fine for a wagon. If I wanted a sports car. I would buy one. A little more power is not attractive to me at all. Its not worth the hit in gas mileage. A LOT more power is (like 250-300bhp).
All the 2001 Outbacks have the larger brakes, not just the H6.
I guess we're all just whistl'n dixie until the H6 starts hitting the streets. The price still seems about $3K too high. Especially when you can get a V6 Accord in the mid-twenties. I know, it doesn't have AWD, but it's still an excellent (if somewhat bland) car.
I think the big thing here is that once you get in the $30K range, you need to have a significant discount to sway people... If you try to go after the Audi/Volvo crowd you will not win any new customers. Subie owners know that the subarus are better (maybe?) but once you start digging into the price range of the volvo/audi, people will say "ah for a few grand more I can get a volve/audi, why would I get s SUBARU?"
Also the audio system in the VDC is McIntosh, supposedly a superior audio system (I'm not an audiophile so I don't know)
When I bought my trooper over the Legacy GT wagon, it was for the same reason, it was $3500 more than the GT wagon was going to cost me, yet gave me better power, more acceleration, far more storage space, and tons more towing...
I was going to wait for the H6, but then I decided "How could I justify $32,000 on the H6 which had less power, towing, space and cost me $4,500 more than the Trooper"
For now, I'm sticking with my '88 XT6, and the '00 Trooper, when the XT6 dies, it'll be SVX or WRX for me...
What a load of bull about being unable to lure some Audi customers. Do you think Audi had any customers before the A4 was released not many years ago?
And volvo's conservative styling will lure some. Plus many volvo owners are safety fanatics, and we all know the accolades the 2000 legacy has received for safety. (It is nice to know the added 250lb for MY00 went into something.)
Switching gears-- McIntosh makes fairly high grade components, but they are not my cup of tea. I dislike paying for name when I can't hear a difference and I can't hear a difference between one clean solid state amp and another. (I also have plain old copper monstercable driving my B&W home speakers-- bully for those that can sell the $50/ft pure silver stuff.) I personally am not aware of McIntosh making any speakers, so I can't comment there. I consider the speakers to be the most important audio component so I wouldn't say the VDC stereo will be any good just because of the name.
People buy different cars for different reasons. As Paisan said: "my trooper... gave me better power, more acceleration, far more storage space, and tons more towing..."
More power and acceleration would be nice, but I don't need more space or towing. That would seem to make the H6 a viable option for my needs. When I bought my Outback, what was important was AWD, ground clearance, gas mileage (disappointing so far), interior room (big enough), reliability, dealer support, resale value and price. Many of the brands being mentioned here do not have a large dealer support base (in Canada) and/or have very expensive parts. Subaru has a somewhat limited dealer network, but there are definitely more Subaru dealers than Saab. In other words, I would not worry about breaking down in some out of the way place in my Outback as I would in a Saab.
I also have a hard time imagining BMW, Saab and Volvo owners taking their cars off-road like some Sube owners do with their cars. Ditto for the shiny Lexus SUVs.
So, different strokes for different folks. I don't see me stepping up to the H6's as I just can't justify the extra goodies or power. Manual transmission is also a must for me.
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Comments
-mike
Subaru going up market only to fail is,..well
anyones guess. But saying that Subaru can't
compete, should'nt try, or stick to what they
know is a recipe for a cold dog soup and rainbow
pie if I ever one.
This company has got to march on, less it's falls
by the wayside. Like some many other areas of
Services. Folks can log on to a trend, fade,
whatever in a New York minute. The consumers
can turn just as quick as the economy or a herd
of Buffalo. Just think about it.
Later Ya'll
Deal w/ it people!
juice, how close were your predictions?
..Mike
..Mike
I seem to recall Juice targeted the L.L. Bean model at $30,000 and the VDC H6 at $32,000. He said increased content as well as the H6 engine would account for the increases!
Are we sure he doesn't have an inside track to Fuji?
Don
1.
A 2-seat roadster based on the new Impreza mechanicals. Sort of a Miata/S2000 fighter with AWD, and priced somewhere between those two. Perhaps using the "Brighton" name? How about Turbo Brighton?!?!
If you recall, several years ago, at the Tokyo Motor Show, Subaru showed such a vehicle. Whatever happened to it?
2.
Again using the Impreza platform, offer a true Jeep Wrangler competitor. Obviously I'm talking about an industrial-strength Impreza platform!
I'm talking about a vehicle that can do "anything" a Jeep Wrangler can do, but with the sophistication and comfort that is totally alien to the Wrangler. I'm sure Subaru can do it ... if they wanted to.
3.
A H-6 2-door coupe based off the new Legacy GT (to keep costs in line). A modern SVX, if you will, and a strong competitor for the Acura CL S-Type. That would mean offering a larger and tweaked H-6, say around 3.2 - 3.3 liters, with around 270 HP. Also including a 6-speed manual, and a 5-speed automatic with tip-tronic shifting capability.
As a matter of fact, the above powertrain should become standard in the GT too!
Bob
bob -- #1 already exists, it's called a Delfino. British kit car with WRX drivetrain. Hasn't seen production (yet) though. #2 requires a new chassis and that's too expensive for FHI right now, even with GM's help. #3 could happen, but let's see what they have planned for the new Legacy GT -- 4 cylinder turbo or the new H6.
-Colin
Bob
I want a "factory" Subaru roadster, not a kit car.
2.
It may be costly, but it sure would be fun! Nobody has seriously challenged the Jeep Wrangler in this country. A Subaru with a H-4 2.5, and a supercharged H-4 2.5, similar to the STX concept would make for perfect engines choices. I would also like to see a tri-range (not dual-range) transmission used. The third range would be a true "deep" low for serious off-roading.
3.
I agree. I do feel, however, that the GT models should receive a tuned, and more powerful version of the new H-6 that is "exclusive" to the GT range. That would make the GT lineup really standout from the other Subaru models. If the GT gets the same H-6 engine that the Outbacks get, it will always remain in their shadow. I want to see the GT models really standout, and truly live up to the "GT" label.
Bob
The GT Wagon I test drove was pathetic. I had my deposit in hand and was about to order it until I drove it. It's too much of a porker, it's like 3500lbs dry, my '97 rodeo was 3600lbs dry and had a 190hp V6 SOHC. Loaded down the GT was way slow.
I'd love to see a big subie, like the size of an A8 with a flat 6 or flat 8 and about 400hp. A luxo full size AWD kick the pants off the lexus and audis.
Imagine an AWD, flat 8, with HID, leather, auto temp controls, Bose or equivilent stereo, GPS nav, etc. with a ton of HP, and a ride like a limo....All priced at say $39K-$42K... They could take a significant portion of the luxo market with that.
-mike
The GTs should be something special, and set apart from all the other Subarus, including the Outbacks. I see the GTs as doing battle (from a performance standpoint, but less expensive) with the Acura TL/CLs, the 3-Series BMW, the Audi A4s, etc. To do so, they need more power than the H-6 offers.
The GTs should also receive front seats with larger side bolsters; a 5-speed, tip-tronic automatic; and the long-rumored, close-ratio, 6-speed manual that is being developed for the home-market WRX; and 17" wheels.
To add frosting to the cake, it would be great if Subaru offered a full-blown, performance-oriented GT (B-6 Turbo?), to go head-to-head with the Audi S-4, BMW's M3, and the Mercedes AMG C-Class models. Yeah, it would be very expensive, but would still be less costly than the above mentioned euro models. Like the WRX, it would be for hard-core Subaru performance freaks.
Bob
Why? Two reasons:
1.
I don't think too many people, in that market, will be willing to spend the extra $2400 (over the LL Bean model) for this feature, and...
2.
Having two premium H-6 models will be confusing to many customers. I think most people will opt for the cheaper LL Bean model. Like the Outback sedan, it seems to me to be a fish-out-of-water. It just doesn't seem to make much sense.
I think the VDC feature will be much more marketable (and appreciated) if offered as part of the GT package.
Bob
1.
The current 4-model Outback lineup will become a 2-model Outback lineup again.
I think VDC Outback will be folded into the LL Bean Outback. Meaning the LL Bean will get the VDC and trick audio system from the current VDC.
I think the Outback Limited will disappear, with the leather and dual moonroofs becoming options on the base Outback. I think the H-6 will also become an option on this model.
2.
I think the items I mentioned in post #385 could occur.
3.
I predict the Legacy L will drop the "L", and will just be called the Legacy, much like the base Outback is just called the Outback.
4.
If Subaru does replace the 4EAT with a 5EAT, as I predict by 2005; the 5-speed manual will disappear from the Outback lineup. As we all know, it's increasing difficult to find 5-speed manuals in Legacys and Outbacks on the dealer's lots. A 5-speed automatic will be the final nail in the coffin.
I'm pretty certain Subaru will have 5EAT by 2005, even though I've not read anything to confirm this. They have to, because every body else will have one. Right now 5-speed automatics are restricted to premium brands. That's about to change. It's been reported that the new Civic, due out this fall, will have 5-speed automatic. If the Civic gets a 5-speed automatic, you know every Honda (and Toyota, etc.) will be offering that feature shortly too. So will Subaru.
I just read that the all-new, yet to be announced BMW 7 Series will get a 6-speed automatic, as will the next E-Class Mercedes. The 7 Series BMW will also offer AWD as an option for the first time too. So, 5-speed automatics "for the masses" is not far off.
5.
5-speed manuals will be found only on "entry-level family" (Legacy H-4) models, "casual-sporting" (Impreza RS) models. 6-speed manuals will be found on "hard-core-sporting" (WRX) models and "premium-sporting" (Legacy GT H-6 & GT H-6 Turbo) models.
The 6-speed manual has been rumored for the new WRX. The USA may not get it right away, but we should eventually get it. I can't believe that Subaru would go to the trouble and costs to develop a 6-speed manual "just" for the WRX. I'm sure it will appear on other sporting models too. High-performance Legacys seems to be a natural for it.
6.
I think the 2.5 H-4 will get a performance boost to around 175-180 HP, with perhaps a low-boost supercharged version (from the STX) putting out around 205-210 HP. This SC engine could make its way into the Forester.
7.
In addition to the limited-edition performance-oriented Impreza (WRX), and perhaps (my) prediction of a Legacy (GT-Turbo), I think we could also see a performance-oriented Forester. However, unlike the Impreza/Legacy performance models, I predict (hope) that Forester would be more off-road oriented in terms of equipment and content -- a "true" crossover vehicle, equally at home in the rough as on the road.
Bob
Patti, is Subaru working on such a system, and if so, when can we expect to see it appear on a Subaru?
Bob
WRT the 36 volt electrical system, I wonder how easy it will be to get batteries. BMWs are already expensive to buy and to maintain as it is, but to have to buy something simple like a battery from them would be...#$%&#@!
Drew
I do remember reading somewhere(?) recently that the S-Class will also get AWD (4matic) as an option sometime in the future.
As with just about all high-tech stuff, you will see it in the premium brands first. When it eventually trickles down to mainstream brands, hopefully it won't be too expensive (yeah, right!).
Bob
No matter how good we all know the AWD is, the US market looks at the MPG #s and the $ figures, and the image. Most of the people in the US market are lemmings, following the rest of the flock to the CRV/Rav 4, and Camary/Accord.
-mike
If the new 7-series does indeed have the 36 volt electrical system, this would be one ofthe reasons why I would definitely avoid it for a while. I'd rather not be a beta tester thank you.
The German makes are still not as reliable (as the Japanese) as far as electronics goes. The new BMW X5 SUV is a prime example of this. It has been suffering from numerous electrical gremlins ranging from turn signals working sporatically, to the engine suddenly stalling.
The 3rd generation MB modular 4-matic system is currently being developed, and it is supposed to be able to work on the current S-class. I've no idea if MB will offer it on the S-class in the near future though (hopefully they will, and soon).
Drew
Subaru learned the hard way not to compete head-to-head with the large corporations. They have been very successful at carving out a special niche for themselves with the Outback concept. If they want to be successful with the Impreza and Legacy they have to do the same thing -- find a special niche for those vehicles. Affordable performance vehicles appears to be that niche.
Bob
The Legacy is a great car, but when compared to other offerings from Honda, Toyota, VW, and even domestic manafacturers, the only thing that differentiates the Legacy is all AWD. And if you don't need that, than many of the other offerings are a better deal in cost, mileage, & power. Not something we like to hear, but it's true.
-- ash ('00 Outback)
I just came across this on the SOA website. 2001
model pricing is out. The LL Bean edition is about $30K and the VDC is $32K:
http://www.subaru.com/news/press_releases/pr_00/06_29_00_pricing.html
In its current state, the VDC is an alternative to the 4-Motion BUT will it feel as expensive as the baby Audi? Will it get Passat shoppers into Subaru showrooms? I dont know but its going to be interesting to see. Unless the street price is below $30k for the VDC its gonna take a beating in the Passat/A4 range. Most people will not pay $32+k for a Subaru. Cracking that market will take time. What would fix it NOW?
A little more would have made the VDC A LOT better....
My VDC would be:
1) 250+bhp for $32k (alternative but more is always better with hp:)). 250hp puts it in Audi All-road range and more than the Volvo XC. In other words, make Volvo nervous not WV.
2) HID option an absolute must (different AND better). I was VERY VERY VERY disappointed not to see it. Market as another safety feature like the side air bags on my Limited.
3) Huge vented dics on all fours. 60-0 in the 120s.
I got our 2.5L H4 2k OB Ltd. for about $27k Loaded with all kinds of stuff. I really like it and would buy another with H4 PII engine for that price. For me to make the jump to $30+k street price Subaru better show up with more than an H6 with 212hp and VDC. They are gonna have to so I'll wait until their prices drop, I build up more Subaru dollars, and or they decide to include what I want. Just one future Subaru buyers opnion.
Bob
I very seriously doubt that the VDC will sell for $32k for very long. I'm guessing that within 6 months from introduction they will moving out at or most likely $30k or at the usual $200-300 over invoice. I bet the LL Bean eventually sells for basically $1000 more (or less) than my 2K OB 2.5L F4 Limited. So my guess $28k for the LL Bean base and $30k for the VDC base is the limit of what people will pay for a Subaru. Any other predictions here? My reasons follow:
None of this means that I dont like Subarus!!! I'm earning Subaru dollars to buy another one in a couple of years. We really like the one we currently have. Even if I REALLY REALLY like them, $32K? Then taxes and finance.....thats a big chunk of change for a car thats not an Audi/Lexus/Acura or other fancy name. I'll be getting another Subaru but it will not be the VDC or the LL Bean unless they become good values. Lets see if the Impreza Turbo comes in under $25k. Now that would be a good buy. Without having driven it (only seen), the VDC flavors of Outback appears to be in for a beating in its price range.
Just for comparison one can get the Lexus RX300 AWD in the same range (around $34k). The RX300 FWD can be had for even less. For that you get more horsepower, more torque, more towing, better brakes (actually fantastic brakes), likely better acceleration, better warranty, better service, better resale, of course its a Lexus so you also get the fancy factor too. Ofcourse, on the other hand it is a little smaller and will cost you more in insurance. Still, my feeling is that in that price range the RX300 is a MUCH better buy. In fact in the $30-35k range the RX300 is my pick. To suprass the RX300, or something similar, in every way should have been Subarus target.
BUT wait it gets much worse for Subaru which is now also in spitting distance of the (in no particular order):
1) Infiniti QX4 $33.9k (MSRP is $35.5k)
2) Toyota 4-Runner Limited $34k (MSRP is $36.8k)
3) Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited AWD $32k (MSRP is $34.6k)
4) Nissan Pathfinder XE $28.2k (MSRP is $29.6k)
5) VW Passat 4-Motion GLX 2.8 $31.7k (Sell for $32-33k loaded around here)
6) BMW 323iT Sport Wagon $29.2k (about $3000 more for the good stuff)
7) Audi A4 2.8 Quattro Wagon $30.1 (MSRP is $31.5k) About $3000 more for the good stuff.
8) Audi A6 Avant (Wagon) $34.8k (MSRP is $36.9k)
9) Saab 9-5 2.3t Wagon $31.7k (MSRP is $33.1k)
10) Volvo V70 GLT $31.9 (MSRP is $33.0k)
11) Volvo V70 T5 M Wagon $32.6 (MSRP is $33.4k)
I'm sure I missed some......Ofcourse some have AWD and some dont but all are wagons, hybrids, or sport utes or some sort.
**Most of these are without destination charge and are taken from Edmunds or the manufacturers sites. The reason I have them is my parents were recently car shopping in the $30-35k range. They went with a Camry XLE V6 (instead of the similar Lexus ES300) after driving all of the above and many more.
These are most of the cars, hybrids, and sport utes that I would drive if I was shopping in the $30-35k range. Somehow I dont think that Subaru VDC would have won out.
If Subaru is going to get into the $30-35k range of wagons, hybrids, and sport utes.....They are no longer a good value in my opnion. The LL Bean edition on the other hand as you suggested seems interesting. BUT I have not really looked at the list of standard features. Am I gonna have to pay pay for a 6-CD changer, speaker upgrade, and stuff like that, rear gate bar, and stuff like that or does it some included? If it does then $28k is very interesting. If I have to start adding things then $28k+2k is not so interesting. Which brings be back to what they heck they were thinking with the VDC at $32k???????
From a marketing perspective, having more powerful/fancy models available may actually increase interest in the entire range, for a number of reasons.
I don't defend the pricing, but one might argue that UNTIL Subaru has vehicles at those price points, they will not successfully convince the market that they deserve to be there. Hmmm....
Stephen
$27,500 for my Trooper LS with only 1 option: HUGE Moonroof
6 disk in dash
auto climate control
V6, 3.5L, 215hp, 230lb torque
5000 lb towing
AWD
power everything, heated seats, power driver and pass seats, 16" wheels, tinted windows, power folding and heated mirrors, Limited Slip Diff, skid plates, in glass antenna, 10/120K drivetrain warranty, 3/50K bumper to bumper, better fit and finish than the soobies, heated seats, 60/40 split folding RECLINING rear seats. Fantastic 4wheel disc brakes, 4 wheel ABS.
I bought this over the Legacy GT Wagon cause for the $3500 more it was going to cost me, I got a lot more value. Compared to say an OB Limited or the VDC, you are talking almost $4000 less than the VDC. How could subaru compare?
-mike
RE: Trooper LS (paisan):
1) I think that FHI owns both Subaru and Isuzu so in your case it may be one hand paying the other.
2) "How could subaru compare?" to defend Subaru a little.......We (mostly my wife) selected the 2k OB Ltd. over the loaded Trooper LS and many other sport-utes because of looks, driving feel (position/road manners/seats), fit and finish, proven reliability, 27-29mpg on the highway, cheap insurance. As far as utes go the Trooper is pretty reliable and I like it but the 4 samples we had to look at did not have good fit and finish. In fact, in all four some of the interior plastic (at the seams) did not fit together properly (evenly) and the glove compartment did not close correctly. One example had a badly misaligned door which was difficult to close. Also we took our 2k OB Ltd. home for about $27k with every option (most on your list) we wanted including 7 year/100k warranty. BUT I can see the attraction of the Trooper and similar mid-small utes.
That may be counter-productive, however. Here Subaru comes out with this neat vehicle, gets everybody excited about it, then sticks it to the customer with poor availability/high prices. It's a good way to piss off potential customers.
I agree with everyones comments about the tough competition in the $30K - $40K market. Another tough new competitor in that market is the new 7-passenger Acura MDX. I would pick this over a Lexus RX300 (or an Outback VDC) any day of the week.
Yes, the MDX is a bit more than a VDC, but you begin to wonder when the prices aren't that far apart. The difference in monthly car-payment costs is probably not that great between a VDC and a MDX. And... that what most people look at, the monthly "nut." Can I afford the extra $50 or so? I think most people looking in the #30K + price range probably could afford the more expensive vehicle, if they really felt it was worth it.
Bob
Nematode,
$30-35K range for a RX300 AWD?? That's pushing it -- most come fairly loaded and seem to still be going for MSRP which is close to $37K. And, having taken my sister's RX thru wine country and down the coast recently, I'd pass on it -- way too much body roll thru the turns. I'd take any wagon incl the Subaru H6 or Passat over it any day. If you still were looking at a hybrid for under $40K, the new MDX looks like the one to get when it comes out since it will have many of the features that RX owners have been calling for -- nav system, memory seats, 3rd row seat. However, if history repeats itself, the limited production of the MDX and probable high demand may see some of the price gouging seen with the Odyssey.
Have a safe 4th, George
Bob
-mike
I know this is off-topic in a way, but do y'all think VW will be successful with the upcoming Passat Plus (stretch wheelbase, V6 and maybe the A6 power choices), or will it confuse a buyer who might otherwise consider an Audi? Also, how about the impending W12 VW luxo-cruiser?
Truth is, all they've really done is add a bigger engine, and more electronic toys to it. No better tires, suspension, handling, or even external appearance (beyond a H6-3.0 on the front).
Personally, I don't think it's worth it, especially when you can get the same car minus the upgraded engine for so much less. (Boy does the Legacy L look like a great deal now!) I know right off the bat, I would never spend more than the $21500 I did for my 5-speed OB w/winter package.
ash
Stephen-
Hehehehehe!!!! A Star Wars pun. I get it Jedi/Jetta. That's pretty good.
Most, if not all of you are indicating that the H6 Outbacks are too costly relative to other Outbacks and relative to what you want to pay. However, there are two facts to be considered here:
1. on paper they are priced with the competition, below the competition actually if you consider the near-luxury features.
2. no one has driven one yet, and it's quite easy to say you wouldn't want the extra power for X dollars when you haven't driven one with that extra power. (yes, they're heavier too. for shame.)
Additionally, for each of you that doesn't elect to pay that much for a Subaru, SOA is counting on new customers moving over from SUVs, Volvo wagons, etc. ($32k is nothing in the SUV market.) They are not trying to upgrade all the $23k Outback L owners to a H6.
-Colin
Do you think that shoppers considering the Audi A4 2.8, Volvo 70 GLT series wagons, SAAB 9-5 series wagons, BMW 3 series wagons, Acura MDX hybrid, Lexus RX300 hybrid and others will 1) go look at the Subaru and then more importantly 2) buy the Subaru because its better? I'm not even sure the VDC is good enough on paper to even get through #1 EVEN if its acutally better (which none of us know yet). The way I see it:
1) Subaru has AWD but so will the Lexus and the Acura. BUT the RX300 and MDX will be in short supply so Subaru could get a foothold by having the VDC readily available. BUT they are going to be in very short supply so.....Anyway, most people shopping in this range dont put AWD on the top of their list of must haves.
2) Price. Relative to the Acura and Lexus the VDC will cost less relative to the A4 if may cost more. Several thousand less than the Acura and Lexus for sure though. BUT Subaru service is nowhere near the quality of some of the others and the Subaru name does not carry the same weight as any of the others. Additionally, the warranty on most of the other is better than Subaru offers.
3) Reliability is a push. Its a new model.
4) Performance? Dont really know but since there is no 5spd avail. there is no way it can run with the BMW, SAAB, or Volvo. Also in this price range it does not really vastly over power any of the others. It has less than some and more than others.
5) Name. Of the ones mentioned which one does not fit in the $30+k range?
6) Look. Looks the same as the 2k OB Ltd. Nice but will any of this get people into the showroom?
Additionally, where do you reside? Around here (St. Louis) most SUVs (Explorer, Trooper, and the like) can be had loaded and more in the $30-35k range.
Generally, people who buy Subarus are overly analytical and like numbers/facts/figures and love to compare stuff. I guess if thats NOT he market they are after........it might work. But would I but it? Nope. If the VDC was $29k LOADED street price. Yup. Its not that I dont like it. I just think its way overpriced. By about $3000 bucks. I think that Subaru should know that.
2) volvo and audi are both 4/50 warranty on everything. subaru is 3/36 bumper-to-bumper and 5/60 powertrain. seems like a wash to me, but some would prefer one over the other...
3) performance-- have you driven an A4 2.8Q Avant? I haven't.
I'll comment more on some of the other stuff after a few others have a chance to chew on what I've posted.
-Colin
2) The Volvo V70 GLT is $35-36k well equipped. It can hit $40 if you get everything.
3) The Avant is a better performer than the current OB. BUT neither are anywhere near SAAB, Volvo, or BMW. Unlike some, I dont find the current OB under powered. It gets to 60 in about 12sec. Thats fine for a wagon. If I wanted a sports car. I would buy one. A little more power is not attractive to me at all. Its not worth the hit in gas mileage. A LOT more power is (like 250-300bhp).
I guess we're all just whistl'n dixie until the H6 starts hitting the streets. The price still seems about $3K too high. Especially when you can get a V6 Accord in the mid-twenties. I know, it doesn't have AWD, but it's still an excellent (if somewhat bland) car.
Bob
Also the audio system in the VDC is McIntosh, supposedly a superior audio system (I'm not an audiophile so I don't know)
When I bought my trooper over the Legacy GT wagon, it was for the same reason, it was $3500 more than the GT wagon was going to cost me, yet gave me better power, more acceleration, far more storage space, and tons more towing...
I was going to wait for the H6, but then I decided "How could I justify $32,000 on the H6 which had less power, towing, space and cost me $4,500 more than the Trooper"
For now, I'm sticking with my '88 XT6, and the '00 Trooper, when the XT6 dies, it'll be SVX or WRX for me...
-mike
And volvo's conservative styling will lure some. Plus many volvo owners are safety fanatics, and we all know the accolades the 2000 legacy has received for safety. (It is nice to know the added 250lb for MY00 went into something.)
Switching gears--
McIntosh makes fairly high grade components, but they are not my cup of tea. I dislike paying for name when I can't hear a difference and I can't hear a difference between one clean solid state amp and another. (I also have plain old copper monstercable driving my B&W home speakers-- bully for those that can sell the $50/ft pure silver stuff.) I personally am not aware of McIntosh making any speakers, so I can't comment there. I consider the speakers to be the most important audio component so I wouldn't say the VDC stereo will be any good just because of the name.
-Colin
better power, more acceleration, far more storage
space, and tons more towing..."
More power and acceleration would be nice, but I don't need more space or towing. That would seem to make the H6 a viable option for my needs. When I bought my Outback, what was important was AWD, ground clearance, gas mileage (disappointing so far), interior room (big enough), reliability, dealer support, resale value and price. Many of the brands being mentioned here do not have a large dealer support base (in Canada) and/or have very expensive parts. Subaru has a somewhat limited dealer network, but there are definitely more Subaru dealers than Saab. In other words, I would not worry about breaking down in some out of the way place in my Outback as I would in a Saab.
I also have a hard time imagining BMW, Saab and Volvo owners taking their cars off-road like some Sube owners do with their cars. Ditto for the shiny Lexus SUVs.
So, different strokes for different folks. I don't see me stepping up to the H6's as I just can't justify the extra goodies or power. Manual transmission is also a must for me.
MikeF