The 4Mo has been slow in testing. C&D took 9.4s to hit 60, and Motorweek took 9.8. The new Forester MW tested was significantly quicker, and that's with a 4 banger automatic. C&D has not tested the Phase II engined Forester, so we can't compare.
The Outback is heavier, though, but still close to the V6 4Mo. The H6 should blow VW away.
I think the Torsen diffy leaks more power, so it's less efficient than Subaru's AWD systems are.
Patti said they have some H6 models at HQ they're probably testing. Can't wait.
It's getting close to time that Subaru announces their new models. Historically it's always been in late July, or early August. So, with that in mind, can you give us a peek as to what we can expect for 2001?
Specificly:
Legacy/Outback We all know about the LL Bean/VDC H-6 models. What about the rest of the lineup? I know these models were new in 2000, but can we expect some tweaking and fine-tuning of vehicle content for the 2001 MY?
For example: I was at the NY Auto Show and saw the new H-6 models. I noticed that they both now have a fold-down rear armrest, like that of the 2000 sedans. Can we expect to see that rear armrest appear on all Legacy/Outback 2001 wagons, as well?
Can we expect to see any power increases in the 2.5 H-4?
Will Subaru delete any models Legacy/Outback models for 2001? I've heard that the Brighton wagon may disappear. Will Subaru now have four Legacy-based Outbacks: Base, Limited, LL Bean & VDC? Or, will they delete the H-4 Limited, and perhaps offer the dual-moonroof and leather as options on the base model? Subaru has a tendency to offer too many models. In Japan they offer 9 Legacy wagons, and 5 Lancaster (Outback) models for a total of 13 different wagons. That's way too many models, and I think 4 Outbacks for the US market is too many also.
Impreza My understanding is that the new model will arrive next winter as a 2002 model. If that's the case, can we expect zero changes for 2001, since it is a lame-duck model?
Forester You mentioned 2005 as the date of the next make-over for the Forester. I've read newswires saying that GM and Subaru would be offering a new, larger SUV based on the Legacy in 2005. Are you saying that this new model in 2005 will be a Forester? I was under the impression that the new model would be an addition to lineup, not the revamped Forester. Am I assuming incorrectly? 2005 seems like a long way off for the current Forester to exist. I would think the increased competition would force an earlier revamp of that model.
Rear armrest sounds good. Subaru typically does toss in a few running changes each year.
I say drop the non-ABS Brigthon, the L is a better value anyway. Also, the Limited is a bit redundant. It does fill a price gap, though.
Let's give Patti a chance to double-check on the Forester ETA. 2003 sounds more likely, given the Impreza would have already been out for a year and a half, and the Forester is based on that.
Actually, the Torsen LSD in the Audis and Passat is extremely efficient and effective. Even more so than both of Subarus AWD systems. Since the Torsen is a mechanical device, it reacts practically instantaneously to tire slip. Much quicker than any viscous coupling or multi-plate clutch AWD system. It's also way faster than the traction control based 4WD systems (there are 3 Torsen diffs - front, centre and rear). In addition to this, Torsen-equipped 4WD systems provide permanent 50/50 split in normal conditions, as well as linear lockup. The downside to such a system is that it is very expensive and since it is mechanical, I think that it is a little heavier than other systems. Audi is now also using a Haldex clutch system in their TT, which is arguably just as good and a whole lot cheaper.
I believe that the "problem" with the 4-motion Passats is that it is equipped with the same 2.8L 190hp V6 engine that can be found in the A4 and A6. In those cars (and with the auto tranny), it has always been an underachiever. At 2.8L, it is already smaller than many other engines out there on the market. The AWD system probably also saps some power from the engine, which already has to deal with the extra weight. Yes, Audi has the 2.7T, but not everyone wants a twin-turbo charged vehicle (we know the kinds of problems that turbos can caused when they're old).
Good morning. Good afternoon to others (those not on the West). I haven't been here in awhile, but it is nice to be back on-line in the Subaru crew. I have some questions regarding the new LLBean and VDC models coming out. I have my wife's approval to purchase one of the two (of course, she will most likely drive it more anyway), so now I have to do some homework. 1.) Is it a good idea to pre-order from a dealer? I spoke to one of our local Southern California dealers and they said that they are now taking orders for the LLBean and VDC H6 Outbacks. The down side is that they said they were not sure yet on the color options that will be available. Rather than order one, I decided to get more info. Also, they said they planned on early October or late September??? 2.) Can you get a fair price if you pre-order? Do they have you by the hook? When is price negotiated? Before you even take a looksy? 3.) Model preference? Sounds like the major differences are the VDC, stereo and interiors (one has LLBean styling, the other does not). Is the VDC model suppose to be like the GT in sports handling, while the LLBean is supposed to replace the Limited? Both have leather though...? 4.) Does anyone know the inside scoop on the pricing? I've heard around $28k to $30k.
Sorry for the length. I am excited about the new models and can't believe that I have the decision-makers approval already I guess that could change once she sees the payment. Thanks for your help with the questions.
Forget the L.L Bean. I think that everyone should go for the VDC wagon because of its advanced dynamics and traction control system, which is unavailable in the L.L Bean model. Here's the link to the Subaru site where you'll find all that you want to know on the H6 wagons. Be sure to read the Press Release. It has some very juicy (no pun intended, Juice ) details: http://www.subaru.com/outback/2001/index.html
[i]I think the Torsen diffy leaks more power, so it's less efficient than Subaru's AWD systems are.[/i]
Actually TorSen differentials have zero slip because they are gears. By nature, any slippage equals lost torque.
Volkswagen AG also uses the haldex AWD system... without getting into overly technical details, it's actually somewhat similar to Subaru's automatic transmission system-- shaft speed and inertial sensors tell it where the traction should be and it uses a computer controlled multi-pack clutch to distribute power.
Thanks for the link. I believe I have printed out the brochure at least 3-4 times, in anticipation and thinking that maybe more info. would be included. The VDC does sound like the way to go if nothing other than the fact that the L.L.Bean sound like really nothing more than detailing. We'll see. Any thoughts on pre-ordering strategies?
When you said that VW uses the Haldex system, I assume that you're not referring to the Passat. The Passat is fitted with the Torsen-equipped Quattro system, but the Golf 4-motion has the Haldex system.
Yes, the Haldex system is somewhat similar to the auto tranny Subaru AWD system in that it uses a multi-disc clutch setup. The Haldex system is even more similar to the Porsche 959 PSK AWD system. Based on what I've heard and read so far, the Haldex system performs just as well, or maybe even better than the Torsen-LSD system, and at a lower cost, less weight, and less complexity to boot!
Considering I have been driving around in an '89 Isuzu pickup that she hardly will ride in, I think that is what is motivating her. Not to mention that she will get the added advantage of driving it most. Since I commute by train, I will get the leased Nissan so that we can lower our mileage rate.
I guess it would depend on whether your dealership is accepting pre-orders right now (I would guess that they are). Let me first say that I currently don't own a Subaru. I have a couple of MBzs and pre-ordering seems to be the norm for new models at my MB dealership (I've always had to do it in the past). I wouldn't expect any discounts since this a brand new model, which will be in high demand. Perhaps you can get a few accessories thrown in, or at a discounted price.
Of course you're right. The Torsen-LSD is simple and yet very effective. I don't know what I was thinking earlier this morning :-) I think that in my head, I was comparing the Porsche 959 PSK system vs. the Haldex system.
The Haldex center differential is similar to Porsche 959's PSK system mentioned in the above, it is only smaller, simpler and cheaper thus making mass production feasible. The center differential is mounted near the rear axle and just in front of the rear differential. They are immersed in oil bath to reduce friction. Actuation is made by hydraulic pressure. Normally the input and output shafts rotate with a speed difference (could be implemented by different final drive ratio), therefore the discs are rotating relative to each other. When no pressure is applied, the clutch is not engaged thus torque will not be transferred to the rear axle. Increase the pressure on the multiplate clutch, the latter will be partially engaged, thus sending torque to the rear axle. The more the clutch engages, the more torque transfers to the rear axle.
The computer determines how much torque to be sent to the rear wheels. Normally it is 50:50, but in tight corners when wheels on one of the axles is slipping, the driver can easily feel the torque transfering from to another axle. 100% of the torque can be sent to either axle.
Compared with 959's unit, Haldex's unit has 7 fewer discs in the clutch. This makes the Haldex unit more compact and cheaper. The downside is that it is not capable of handling as much torque. The 959's discs were organised as 6 pairs of independent clutches, each actuated by individual hydraulic actuator. The Haldex has just one actuator acting on all six discs, again, this saves weight and cost. However, I suspect it could vary the amount of torque split as precise as independent clutches.
I can accept all the theory, but on the road it seems it should be both quicker and more fuel efficient. 17/24 is not that good for 190hp, nor is mid to high 9's to reach 60mph. Combined, those seem to me like SUV numbers!
I'll go out on a limb and predict the H6 will return about 20/25 even with it's extra 22hp and be at least a full second quicker.
We'll have to wait and see, though.
As for pre-ordering, the main issue I'd be concerned with is price. They haven't even announced what it'll cost yet, and you don't know if the dealer will mark up the first few (i.e. yours). Just don't let the sharks eat you.
There is a lively thread in alt.autos.subaru, started by Becker Subaru, in which the price for the LL Bean is listed at $29,990 and the VDC at $32,390. I, of course, have no idea as to the accuracy.
Note: I may sound somewhat dumb asking this, but bare with me. I went to the Subaru's US site and read about the SPT Line for the 2.5 RS. I was unable to open the file, but I was wandering a few things. Does SPT work with the future Impreza that everyone is talking about, or the model we see right now. The reason I am asking this is because I planned on buying a 2.5 RS this fall. I questioned buying it because of all of the rumors and pictures of the new turbo. Basically the SPT could alter my opinion on which car to buy or wait for. If someone already posted this, I apologize. Thanks.
There I go...thinking again..... I just dont get it. Sometime its seems like things are introduced just to be different (the Aztek thread from a few posts back). I'm a little far removed from my college days but I would like to have some of what the higher ups were smoking/drinking/eating the day they OKed that thing. The simple question that the big brains seem to have missed is "Is it just different (looking, performing, anything) or better (of the same)?". I learned to ask myself that question when I was about 12 years old. For example in their meeting they must have considered: Aztek- 1) Bad gas mileage (even worse compared to small SUVs) 2) Poor performance (in its class even with the V6) 3) Not for off road but I dont know about road manners. I have not driven it and likely never will. 4) Much less room than an SUV/minivan 5) Reliable? Probably not very 6) My wifes cats have coughed up better looking things. Ooops that slipped out. 7) Costs a ton according to the MSRP. I predict they will be offering $3000-5000 rebates or 0% finance for 60 months at some point to get rid of them. Remember the Bonneville? Summary: So its got all the pitfalls of an SUV with really no benefits (other than smaller) AND its BUTT UGLY at no extra cost.
Which still leaves me with the question of what they were thinking????? Different? Yup, its different. That it does have. Overpriced? Ugly? Weak? Yup. Yup. Yup.
You see something like that, and suddenly a minivan seems like an extremely intelligent, even hip, idea.
They have the right idea with the Buick Rendesvous: 3 rows of seats, copy the RX300's styling. That'll sell, so at least they can use the factory capacity.
juice: Did you see my post in the Sube Station Wagon area? Its R&T May 2000 pg. 64. The Electra II has a 2.5L F6 Turbo and is currently shown as the next generation Impreza. In the picture its got the hood scoop (looks functional) and 17in rims. It looks pretty cool to me because they ditched some of the other cladding. Things not in the article: 1) There have been several build and they are in the STi division currently under "testing". Rumor. Rumor. AND more Rumor. 2) Probably will never hit US streets but is likely to go production in Japan, UK and AUS. 3) The show version is rumored to have OVER 300bhp. Since their 2.5L F4 turbo can get close to that I suppose it may be true. BUT then again its only 2.5L....small. On the Aztek thread...I would choose just about every minivan on the market over the Aztek JUST based on its looks. Then when you add in anemic performance, small size, and poor fuel economy.......I still dont get it. Perhaps someone here will be able to explain what market they were REALLY after. I see the words "active lifestyle" associated with it quite a bit in the all the hype. In theory, that would make somebody like me the primary target. Yet, I realize that not all cars/trucks appeal to all people....BUT who likes the Aztek? Don't they test market by showing pictures to their target audience? EVERYONE seems to have the same reaction to it. Similar to the nails on the chalkboard sound. On the other hand, as you stated the other Buick (Rendevous) looks like a winner much like the Ford Escape. Give people what they want...not what YOU (Pontiac) think they want.
I wonder if that's a future production model, or a one-off tuner car.
The active lifestyle marketing is all hype. We went to Rock State Park, and there wasn't a single XTerra in the lot. 3 other Soobs, besides our group, though, and some were rock climbing.
The electra II? one off. Unfortunately the aztek is real-- apparently isuzu's vehicross embarrassment has to be surpassed by someone and pontiac is stepping up to plate.
2.5L turbos aren't original. JUN and a few other tuners have been doing that for a while, and suspiciously (or not!) their bore and stroke is identical to the standard Subaru 2.5L like you and I have. No replacement for displacement.
I think Pontiac should have taken a lesson from how badly Ford was stung on the last Taurus...and SOME folks liked it. It still had to be re-done. I don't disagree that a controversial design is better than a banal one, but I don't think there will be much controversy on this one. The Aztek is universally, quantitatively fugly.
So there is the Ford lesson already learned. Then there is the reception the New Beetle enjoyed, which should have pointed the way at least toward a nostalgic look like, oh, say, the PT CRUISER!! Folks at DC were obviously wide awake while the General continued to snooze.
Never mind the success, albeit modest, of the Xterra. At least NDI went out and actually QUERIED their demographic before building the bloody thing.
Add it all up, and I'd say even I could have done a better job of product development, and I have no auto industry experience....say, Patti, ARE you hiring??
Is Subaru REALLY planning on going upscale? It seems like they are expanding the range of their models (wagons) and perhaps pushing into Volvo/BMW/Audi/SAAB/MBenz terriotry with the VDC. I think thats pretty cool. Of those only the Audi and MB offer AWD. I believe the major problem they are going to run into is that one of the primary reason that people buy Volvo/BMW/SAAB/Audi/MB is BECAUSE they are Volvo/BMW/SAAB/Audi/MB. Which brings me to my second question... Will Subaru be able to pull some of those buyers over? They pulled me over from VW/Audi/Volvo but I'm pretty easily moved by facts and figures. Currently Subaru is not mentioned in the same breath as the aforementioned brands but do you see it going that way? Will there come a time when you test drive a Volvo, BMW, and Subaru and lean toward the Subaru because it carries more prestige?
The sad fact is that the Aztek looks best in black but still can't hide the fact that it's wretchingly UGLY! Speaking of wretching...I need to stop, just ate lunch! :-)
Man this Aztek talk cracks me up. Agreed, it's ugly as sin, and if the specs are as bad as advertised, they certainly missed the boat.
(nematode) Good questions, my man! You're right as to why buy people buy Volvo/BMW/SAAB/Audi/MB: status (good and bad) certainly crossed my mind when I was test driving. I think Subaru has long marketing road to survey, dig, and pave before they are mentioned in the same breath as beau monde (not to mention the environmental permitting process -- sheesh!). Would be nice, though. Unfortunately prices would follow suit.
juice -- I freaked when I saw that photo. Looked like a huge Darth Vader helmet with big glowing red eyes! What were those Pontiac designers smoking?
nematode -- I think a lot of people are wondering how upscale Subaru wants to go. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that the VDC H6 as well as other 'high end' models already exist in Japan. They're simply bringing them over to the US.
While I agree that Subaru will have a challenge competing against other pedigree wagons on the "prestige" end, they'll do well in offering better features for a similar price. Take the H6 VDC for example. No other vehicle currently has a similar integrated vehicle dynamics program.
Also, competing in upscale markets where European makes traditionally rule is not something new. Take a look at Lexus and Infiniti. Sure, they probably don't have the same prestige as BMW or Benz, but they sure have gained a foothold in a once exclusive market.
Do you think that if Subaru could spin off an upscale brand a la Toyota/Lexus, Nissan/Infiniti, Honda/Acura and I guess VW/Audi too and perhaps Ford/Lincoln....they would stand a better chance? I dont thint that separating the Legacy as their upscale brand and totally separating the Outback is the way to go. I think the new puppet company idea allows for a sudden impact rather than a change of opnion. The LS400 took exactly 1 year to catch on. Granted, it would still take time but I think it could be done. The puppet company would just need a cool name....cant think of any currently. I hear that Hyundai is toying witht he idea. They have a Lexus LS400 like car with a V8 in the pipeline somewhere. Could you imagine a Subaru (with a cool new name) in the price range of the Acura TL3.2 ($30-35k) with AWD? Or a wagon in the $45k range with Sube reliability? I'd place my order today and eat cereal for the next few years.
nematode: Hadn't thought of that angle, but why not? Build on the Subaru brand (AWD, reliability) yet distance yourself at the same time (inexpensive and built to stay that way, or was that another manufacturer's tag line?). LS400 only took 1 year to catch on?! Wow!
Ken: Good points on Lexus and Infiniti. I recall Consumer Reports saying (not recently) that Lexus is now the benchmark of quality, not MB.
Yea, but Japan is Japan and America is America. I think Soob attracts a certain contrarian, "road less traveled" customer in this country. I wonder if a marketing campaign that went head to head with the above referenced marques would be as effective....and I am talking about something a little more sophisticated than Judd Whathisface stuck under a V70, making fun of the dealer. Call VW's ad agency, and go from there!!
"Soob attracts a certain contrarian, "road less traveled" customer in this country" as lucien2 says is the Subaru war cry I think they can go upscale.
BUT I'm just thinking that rather than fight the current image which sells very well....write a new play instead of creating a new character. What they seem to be doing is fragmenting their current line. I really dont like that because it may mess up their "brand identity". So, keep the current line the way it is (evolving ofcourse) and essentially start a Lexus like company. One could imagine how they could use the same basic platforms, assembly lines, and stuff like that but up the equipment, power, stretch them a little (like the A6) and keep the price in below or around the current favorites like.....Accord/TL, Maxima/I30, Camry/ES300, Passat/A4. Basically start hitting he sub $35 sedans first. While the segment is dog-eat-dog I'm pretty sure AWD, clever ADs, and more power would win over the fickle segment. I guess I started thinking about this after I looked at the Lincoln LS (V6 5spd). The Lincoln that was recently introduced had 2 of the three (great ADs and good price BUT really lacks power even with the V8) and is selling pretty well so far. The main reason that I did not get serious about the car is the lack of power. So you add AWD, 250hp, HID lamps, 6 speeds, and other go-fast goodies in a further refined Legacy GT Limited like car then bring it in at or under $35k and I think it could work. If it could be done I am willing to bet that even BMW may get nervous. Which is what I was getting at in my original post. What can Subaru, with a fancy new puppet name, do in the $30-60k market (Acura TL to Lexus LS400)? Could they rock the automotive world? I'd sure love to see. Anyway, its a nice exercise in thought on a slow day.
I totally agree, I'm sorry if I sounded like I didn't. It's funny, but there is something to be taken from the Aztek discussion at this point....the lessons Ford can teach:
My Dad's 1989 Merkur Scorpio STILL looks great and kicks butt, and it is just criminal that this car isn't selling like hotcakes here. But no, rather than launch a new brand ala Acura, FMC stuck it in Lincoln dealerships filled with blue hairs who shunned it. The target market wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln dealership==dead project 2.5 years after intro.
I agree that Soob should stay Soob and that there is a lot of potential for a new upmarket brand. I just don't know if FHI, even with GM's help, has the resources to mount such a project. I think they would have to design at least one new platform with variants for the project, and that is a couple three mil right there, never mind tooling, dealer network and training, ad campaigns, etc. But you right, Piech, Strempp, Nasser and the guys at PAG, and...uh....damn, who runs BMW? ANYWAY, they'd all be very upset after pondering the potential of such a move by FHI.
Now, how would GM like FHI moving in on Saab's market share?????
Ugh, it's late. Sorry, I just re-read your post. I see what you are saying now about EXISTING platforms being revamped and retooled. That would cut down development costs and make the whole idea more feasible. Hell, they're already running three models off the Impreza platform which in turn was generated by the Legacy. Why not? Now I'll fall asleep dreaming up names for the new company.. ;-)
I doubt very much if you will see an up-market brand from Fuji. I think Subaru should position itself in the market just above the current mass-market vehicles, and just below the entry-level luxury brands. That seems to be where they're headed anyway.
Sorry to pick nits, but Volvo also offers AWD, BMW has the 330ix on the way, and Saab's AWD is coming soon. That segment is CROWDED, folks, and with proven, upscale names.
Remember "inexpensive and built to stay that way"? It would take a paradigm shift (can't believe I just used that buzz phrase) for Subaru to join those ranks.
Yes, Lexus was a hit. But Acura was only mildly successful, and Infiniti kind of bombed. Mazda's Amati division folded before it even joined the party! Now compare the deep pockets of those divisions with Subaru's 160k sales per year!
I'm not saying they can't do it, it's just that I'd rather see their R&D funds go into product, not the marketing of a hyped up image brand.
I say continue to offer a better product than the mass market vehicles, but at a good value, priced below the luxury ranks.
Where to expand, then? Keep the Impreza, Forester, and Legacy. Distinguish the Outback and Outback Sport even more, to give 5 distinct lines of cars. Then throw in the bigger SUW and a minivan, plus maybe a bigger SUV. All three of those could come off the same platform.
That's 8 lines of cars, enough to serve almost any niche.
I actually think that if GM does decide to go in that direction, they'll take an existing Soob and dress it up for sale as an Olds or something, maybe even GMC.
I think that it is really important to retain the "lower " reaches of the market range. I originally went into Subaru interested in the Outback Sport, the other models being "too large and too expensive". Didn't like the Sport, fell instantly in love with the Forester. Great that the H6 is coming, but keep the H4 option for the Legacy/Outback line. I think the 2.2L should remain an option in the Impreza as well. Please don't forget Subaru's roots.
Ross Two tiny suggestions: power to the driver's side window with ignition off - I have to lower window to enter parking, turn car off, turn ignition on, raise window, etc.; adjustable illumination on clock - invisible with sunglasses.
You all got me!!!! I was just trying to find a new angle to get a 350bhp, 5.5sec 0-60 wagon in the US for under $45k. Why? I like Subaru wagons, I like performance, and I'm crazy.
So far the Audi 2.7T is gettig close. 250bhp and about 7sec to 60.
Just think: Subaru GT Wagon 3L F6 Sequential Twin Turbo (first small and then huge), 350bhp, AWD, 6spd.....A proper soccer dad mobile that can also be used to make Corvette owners cry. Hehehehe. Any takers?
Ross, agreed Subaru shouldn't forget its roots. It needs entry-level (read: affordable) models (e.g., Legacy Brighton or L). If the 2.2l/2.5l manufacturing cost and engine efficiency (fuel consumption) deltas are low, I understand why SoA might drop the 2.2l in favor of the Phase II 2.5l H-4 and 3.0l H-6 (fewer engines to support in the field) . The 2.2l is plenty big for an entry-level Impreza/Forester (ditto for my ex-91 Legacy L w/5MT).
I've driven it. It's an awsome car. Period. Until you drive one, you can't really make any statements. Yeah it is ugly, but, personally I don't care what it looks like so long as it performs and holds up well.
That thing moves. 0-60 almost as fast as the RS, and it handles extremely well.
Toyota and Honda did fine with their luxury divisions, however Nissan and Mazda did not. Both got into financial trouble that they are still not out of (Nissan fled to Renault, Mazda joined even more closely to Ford). I think a much better use of Subaru resources would be to expand their dealer base (great in the snowbelt.... not so great in the sunbelt). They seem to be doing a very good job at expanding their models (H-6, Forester), but they don't have any mini-vans, or trucks of any sort. I would think that their is a whole lot of expansion to be done before they could try a new division. Subaru has under 2% of the US market, they can't afford to lose focus and try something like that. It's too bad, I think they could do a good division, but the economics aren't there for it.
juice: I have priced a base GT wagon + turbo (including intercooler, Aquamist, timer, boost controler and some other associated doodads) + other required mods (intake, suspension, rims, tires, clutch, underdrive, brake upgrade) + HID ($900 installed). The total comes out to nearly $36k including the car give or take $2k by my seat of the pants calculations. It may take more than one company to complete what I would want. From people who know more than I, this car in thought would produce 220-240bhp with reasonable reliability.
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Comments
The Outback is heavier, though, but still close to the V6 4Mo. The H6 should blow VW away.
I think the Torsen diffy leaks more power, so it's less efficient than Subaru's AWD systems are.
Patti said they have some H6 models at HQ they're probably testing. Can't wait.
-juice
Specificly:
Legacy/Outback
We all know about the LL Bean/VDC H-6 models. What about the rest of the lineup? I know these models were new in 2000, but can we expect some tweaking and fine-tuning of vehicle content for the 2001 MY?
For example: I was at the NY Auto Show and saw the new H-6 models. I noticed that they both now have a fold-down rear armrest, like that of the 2000 sedans. Can we expect to see that rear armrest appear on all Legacy/Outback 2001 wagons, as well?
Can we expect to see any power increases in the 2.5 H-4?
Will Subaru delete any models Legacy/Outback models for 2001? I've heard that the Brighton wagon may disappear. Will Subaru now have four Legacy-based Outbacks: Base, Limited, LL Bean & VDC? Or, will they delete the H-4 Limited, and perhaps offer the dual-moonroof and leather as options on the base model? Subaru has a tendency to offer too many models. In Japan they offer 9 Legacy wagons, and 5 Lancaster (Outback) models for a total of 13 different wagons. That's way too many models, and I think 4 Outbacks for the US market is too many also.
Impreza
My understanding is that the new model will arrive next winter as a 2002 model. If that's the case, can we expect zero changes for 2001, since it is a lame-duck model?
Forester
You mentioned 2005 as the date of the next make-over for the Forester. I've read newswires saying that GM and Subaru would be offering a new, larger SUV based on the Legacy in 2005. Are you saying that this new model in 2005 will be a Forester? I was under the impression that the new model would be an addition to lineup, not the revamped Forester. Am I assuming incorrectly? 2005 seems like a long way off for the current Forester to exist. I would think the increased competition would force an earlier revamp of that model.
Bob
Rear armrest sounds good. Subaru typically does toss in a few running changes each year.
I say drop the non-ABS Brigthon, the L is a better value anyway. Also, the Limited is a bit redundant. It does fill a price gap, though.
Let's give Patti a chance to double-check on the Forester ETA. 2003 sounds more likely, given the Impreza would have already been out for a year and a half, and the Forester is based on that.
-juice
I believe that the "problem" with the 4-motion Passats is that it is equipped with the same 2.8L 190hp V6 engine that can be found in the A4 and A6. In those cars (and with the auto tranny), it has always been an underachiever. At 2.8L, it is already smaller than many other engines out there on the market. The AWD system probably also saps some power from the engine, which already has to deal with the extra weight. Yes, Audi has the 2.7T, but not everyone wants a twin-turbo charged vehicle (we know the kinds of problems that turbos can caused when they're old).
Drew
1.) Is it a good idea to pre-order from a dealer? I spoke to one of our local Southern California dealers and they said that they are now taking orders for the LLBean and VDC H6 Outbacks. The down side is that they said they were not sure yet on the color options that will be available.
Rather than order one, I decided to get more info. Also, they said they planned on early October or late September???
2.) Can you get a fair price if you pre-order? Do they have you by the hook? When is price negotiated? Before you even take a looksy?
3.) Model preference? Sounds like the major differences are the VDC, stereo and interiors (one has LLBean styling, the other does not). Is the VDC model suppose to be like the GT in sports handling, while the LLBean is supposed to replace the Limited? Both have leather though...?
4.) Does anyone know the inside scoop on the pricing? I've heard around $28k to $30k.
Sorry for the length. I am excited about the new models and can't believe that I have the decision-makers approval already
Good Luck!
Drew
Actually TorSen differentials have zero slip because they are gears. By nature, any slippage equals lost torque.
Volkswagen AG also uses the haldex AWD system... without getting into overly technical details, it's actually somewhat similar to Subaru's automatic transmission system-- shaft speed and inertial sensors tell it where the traction should be and it uses a computer controlled multi-pack clutch to distribute power.
-Colin
Bob
Yes, the Haldex system is somewhat similar to the auto tranny Subaru AWD system in that it uses a multi-disc clutch setup. The Haldex system is even more similar to the Porsche 959 PSK AWD system. Based on what I've heard and read so far, the Haldex system performs just as well, or maybe even better than the Torsen-LSD system, and at a lower cost, less weight, and less complexity to boot!
Considering I have been driving around in an '89 Isuzu pickup that she hardly will ride in, I think that is what is motivating her. Not to mention that she will get the added advantage of driving it most. Since I commute by train, I will get the leased Nissan so that we can lower our mileage rate.
-Colin
The Haldex center differential is similar to Porsche 959's PSK system mentioned in the above, it is only smaller, simpler and cheaper thus making mass production feasible. The center differential is mounted near the rear axle and just in front of the rear differential.
They are immersed in oil bath to reduce friction. Actuation is made by hydraulic pressure. Normally the input and output shafts rotate with a speed difference (could be implemented by different final drive ratio), therefore the discs are rotating relative to each other. When no pressure is applied, the clutch is not engaged thus torque will not be transferred to the rear axle. Increase the pressure on the multiplate clutch, the latter will be partially engaged, thus sending torque to the rear axle. The more the clutch engages, the more torque transfers to the rear axle.
The computer determines how much torque to be sent to the rear wheels. Normally it is 50:50, but in tight corners when wheels on one of the axles is slipping, the driver can easily feel the torque transfering from to another axle. 100% of the torque can be sent to either axle.
Compared with 959's unit, Haldex's unit has 7 fewer discs in the clutch. This makes the Haldex unit more compact and cheaper. The downside is that it is not capable of handling as much torque. The 959's discs were organised as 6 pairs of independent clutches, each actuated by individual hydraulic actuator. The Haldex has just one actuator acting on all six discs, again, this saves weight and cost. However, I suspect it could vary the amount of torque split as precise as independent clutches.
I'll go out on a limb and predict the H6 will return about 20/25 even with it's extra 22hp and be at least a full second quicker.
We'll have to wait and see, though.
As for pre-ordering, the main issue I'd be concerned with is price. They haven't even announced what it'll cost yet, and you don't know if the dealer will mark up the first few (i.e. yours). Just don't let the sharks eat you.
-juice
Ross
If so, we're not too angry
Prices are right on target with early forecasts.
-juice
I went to the Subaru's US site and read about the SPT Line for the 2.5 RS. I was unable to open the file, but I was wandering a few things. Does SPT work with the future Impreza that everyone is talking about, or the model we see right now. The reason I am asking this is because I planned on buying a 2.5 RS this fall. I questioned buying it because of all of the rumors and pictures of the new turbo. Basically the SPT could alter my opinion on which car to buy or wait for. If someone already posted this, I apologize. Thanks.
Kyle
-juice
I just dont get it. Sometime its seems like things are introduced just to be different (the Aztek thread from a few posts back). I'm a little far removed from my college days but I would like to have some of what the higher ups were smoking/drinking/eating the day they OKed that thing. The simple question that the big brains seem to have missed is "Is it just different (looking, performing, anything) or better (of the same)?". I learned to ask myself that question when I was about 12 years old.
For example in their meeting they must have considered:
Aztek-
1) Bad gas mileage (even worse compared to small SUVs)
2) Poor performance (in its class even with the V6)
3) Not for off road but I dont know about road manners. I have not driven it and likely never will.
4) Much less room than an SUV/minivan
5) Reliable? Probably not very
6) My wifes cats have coughed up better looking things. Ooops that slipped out.
7) Costs a ton according to the MSRP. I predict they will be offering $3000-5000 rebates or 0% finance for 60 months at some point to get rid of them. Remember the Bonneville?
Summary: So its got all the pitfalls of an SUV with really no benefits (other than smaller) AND its BUTT UGLY at no extra cost.
Which still leaves me with the question of what they were thinking????? Different? Yup, its different. That it does have. Overpriced? Ugly? Weak? Yup. Yup. Yup.
They have the right idea with the Buick Rendesvous: 3 rows of seats, copy the RX300's styling. That'll sell, so at least they can use the factory capacity.
-juice
1) There have been several build and they are in the STi division currently under "testing". Rumor. Rumor. AND more Rumor.
2) Probably will never hit US streets but is likely to go production in Japan, UK and AUS.
3) The show version is rumored to have OVER 300bhp. Since their 2.5L F4 turbo can get close to that I suppose it may be true. BUT then again its only 2.5L....small.
On the Aztek thread...I would choose just about every minivan on the market over the Aztek JUST based on its looks. Then when you add in anemic performance, small size, and poor fuel economy.......I still dont get it. Perhaps someone here will be able to explain what market they were REALLY after. I see the words "active lifestyle" associated with it quite a bit in the all the hype. In theory, that would make somebody like me the primary target. Yet, I realize that not all cars/trucks appeal to all people....BUT who likes the Aztek? Don't they test market by showing pictures to their target audience? EVERYONE seems to have the same reaction to it. Similar to the nails on the chalkboard sound.
On the other hand, as you stated the other Buick (Rendevous) looks like a winner much like the Ford Escape. Give people what they want...not what YOU (Pontiac) think they want.
The active lifestyle marketing is all hype. We went to Rock State Park, and there wasn't a single XTerra in the lot. 3 other Soobs, besides our group, though, and some were rock climbing.
-juice
2.5L turbos aren't original. JUN and a few other tuners have been doing that for a while, and suspiciously (or not!) their bore and stroke is identical to the standard Subaru 2.5L like you and I have. No replacement for displacement.
-Colin
So there is the Ford lesson already learned. Then there is the reception the New Beetle enjoyed, which should have pointed the way at least toward a nostalgic look like, oh, say, the PT CRUISER!! Folks at DC were obviously wide awake while the General continued to snooze.
Never mind the success, albeit modest, of the Xterra. At least NDI went out and actually QUERIED their demographic before building the bloody thing.
Add it all up, and I'd say even I could have done a better job of product development, and I have no auto industry experience....say, Patti, ARE you hiring??
Want to bet on the Forester outselling the Aztec, anyone?
-juice
Stephen
Look at this photo.
I'm serious - this could traumatize small children.
-juice
Scroll down for STi Forester and a minivan.
Oh, wait, $23k? Never mind. Bring it over!
Hmm, that van looks suspiciously like a Forester. Only the A pillar, fender flares, and hood/grille differ.
-juice
PS I thought they were passing on the van and making a bigger SUW instead
Will Subaru be able to pull some of those buyers over? They pulled me over from VW/Audi/Volvo but I'm pretty easily moved by facts and figures. Currently Subaru is not mentioned in the same breath as the aforementioned brands but do you see it going that way? Will there come a time when you test drive a Volvo, BMW, and Subaru and lean toward the Subaru because it carries more prestige?
Stephen
(nematode) Good questions, my man! You're right as to why buy people buy Volvo/BMW/SAAB/Audi/MB: status (good and bad) certainly crossed my mind when I was test driving. I think Subaru has long marketing road to survey, dig, and pave before they are mentioned in the same breath as beau monde (not to mention the environmental permitting process -- sheesh!). Would be nice, though. Unfortunately prices would follow suit.
..Mike
..Mike
nematode -- I think a lot of people are wondering how upscale Subaru wants to go. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that the VDC H6 as well as other 'high end' models already exist in Japan. They're simply bringing them over to the US.
While I agree that Subaru will have a challenge competing against other pedigree wagons on the "prestige" end, they'll do well in offering better features for a similar price. Take the H6 VDC for example. No other vehicle currently has a similar integrated vehicle dynamics program.
Also, competing in upscale markets where European makes traditionally rule is not something new. Take a look at Lexus and Infiniti. Sure, they probably don't have the same prestige as BMW or Benz, but they sure have gained a foothold in a once exclusive market.
Ken: Good points on Lexus and Infiniti. I recall Consumer Reports saying (not recently) that Lexus is now the benchmark of quality, not MB.
..Mike
..Mike
BUT I'm just thinking that rather than fight the current image which sells very well....write a new play instead of creating a new character. What they seem to be doing is fragmenting their current line. I really dont like that because it may mess up their "brand identity". So, keep the current line the way it is (evolving ofcourse) and essentially start a Lexus like company.
One could imagine how they could use the same basic platforms, assembly lines, and stuff like that but up the equipment, power, stretch them a little (like the A6) and keep the price in below or around the current favorites like.....Accord/TL, Maxima/I30, Camry/ES300, Passat/A4. Basically start hitting he sub $35 sedans first. While the segment is dog-eat-dog I'm pretty sure AWD, clever ADs, and more power would win over the fickle segment.
I guess I started thinking about this after I looked at the Lincoln LS (V6 5spd). The Lincoln that was recently introduced had 2 of the three (great ADs and good price BUT really lacks power even with the V8) and is selling pretty well so far. The main reason that I did not get serious about the car is the lack of power.
So you add AWD, 250hp, HID lamps, 6 speeds, and other go-fast goodies in a further refined Legacy GT Limited like car then bring it in at or under $35k and I think it could work. If it could be done I am willing to bet that even BMW may get nervous. Which is what I was getting at in my original post. What can Subaru, with a fancy new puppet name, do in the $30-60k market (Acura TL to Lexus LS400)? Could they rock the automotive world? I'd sure love to see. Anyway, its a nice exercise in thought on a slow day.
Thanks.
Don
My Dad's 1989 Merkur Scorpio STILL looks great and kicks butt, and it is just criminal that this car isn't selling like hotcakes here. But no, rather than launch a new brand ala Acura, FMC stuck it in Lincoln dealerships filled with blue hairs who shunned it. The target market wouldn't be caught dead in a Lincoln dealership==dead project 2.5 years after intro.
I agree that Soob should stay Soob and that there is a lot of potential for a new upmarket brand. I just don't know if FHI, even with GM's help, has the resources to mount such a project. I think they would have to design at least one new platform with variants for the project, and that is a couple three mil right there, never mind tooling, dealer network and training, ad campaigns, etc. But you right, Piech, Strempp, Nasser and the guys at PAG, and...uh....damn, who runs BMW? ANYWAY, they'd all be very upset after pondering the potential of such a move by FHI.
Now, how would GM like FHI moving in on Saab's market share?????
lots of food for thought, thanks. Nighty Night.
-Lucien
Now I'll fall asleep dreaming up names for the new company.. ;-)
Ok, g'night for real-
Luciano
Bob
Sorry to pick nits, but Volvo also offers AWD, BMW has the 330ix on the way, and Saab's AWD is coming soon. That segment is CROWDED, folks, and with proven, upscale names.
Remember "inexpensive and built to stay that way"? It would take a paradigm shift (can't believe I just used that buzz phrase) for Subaru to join those ranks.
Yes, Lexus was a hit. But Acura was only mildly successful, and Infiniti kind of bombed. Mazda's Amati division folded before it even joined the party! Now compare the deep pockets of those divisions with Subaru's 160k sales per year!
I'm not saying they can't do it, it's just that I'd rather see their R&D funds go into product, not the marketing of a hyped up image brand.
I say continue to offer a better product than the mass market vehicles, but at a good value, priced below the luxury ranks.
Where to expand, then? Keep the Impreza, Forester, and Legacy. Distinguish the Outback and Outback Sport even more, to give 5 distinct lines of cars. Then throw in the bigger SUW and a minivan, plus maybe a bigger SUV. All three of those could come off the same platform.
That's 8 lines of cars, enough to serve almost any niche.
I actually think that if GM does decide to go in that direction, they'll take an existing Soob and dress it up for sale as an Olds or something, maybe even GMC.
-juice
Ross
Two tiny suggestions: power to the driver's side window with ignition off - I have to lower window to enter parking, turn car off, turn ignition on, raise window, etc.; adjustable illumination on clock - invisible with sunglasses.
So far the Audi 2.7T is gettig close. 250bhp and about 7sec to 60.
Just think: Subaru GT Wagon 3L F6 Sequential Twin Turbo (first small and then huge), 350bhp, AWD, 6spd.....A proper soccer dad mobile that can also be used to make Corvette owners cry. Hehehehe. Any takers?
Ross, agreed Subaru shouldn't forget its roots. It needs entry-level (read: affordable) models (e.g., Legacy Brighton or L). If the 2.2l/2.5l manufacturing cost and engine efficiency (fuel consumption) deltas are low, I understand why SoA might drop the 2.2l in favor of the Phase II 2.5l H-4 and 3.0l H-6 (fewer engines to support in the field) . The 2.2l is plenty big for an entry-level Impreza/Forester (ditto for my ex-91 Legacy L w/5MT).
..Mike
..Mike
That thing moves. 0-60 almost as fast as the RS, and it handles extremely well.
-mike
nematode: you can get the H6, and add forced induction, and it'd be close. When you do, invite me over for a test drive, k?
VehiX is a niche vehicle. Strange to the masses, but that's the whole point.
-juice
The total comes out to nearly $36k including the car give or take $2k by my seat of the pants calculations. It may take more than one company to complete what I would want.
From people who know more than I, this car in thought would produce 220-240bhp with reasonable reliability.