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Comments
The majority of Hondas are trouble-free so if you
start complaining of minor problems (car wont
start, knob falls off) you irritate "real" Honda owners and they blow the complainer
out of the topic. Now if you have drivetrain
problems, that is serious and every potential buyer would like to know about it and more. If my Honda had any problems, I'd be at the dealers 9
minutes later and make sure he fixed it or else he
wouldn't be a dealer much longer when I finished
with him. So either way, it doesnt look good when
you sit on a problem for years and don't get it
fixed or you complain about something that was a
minor problem and you couldn't handle it.
I think it is unreasonable to call the problems you listed minor. Car won't start = 3000 lb paperweight in my driveway. Completely unacceptable for a new car. I was ticked when my '93 Sable wouldn't start during an extended cold front here in Cincinnati. The battery was 7 years old, but I was still irritated. Multiply my frustration by 1000 if the car is very new.
Knob falls off = Car is falling apart. Shoddy quality. I could stand it if a knob fell off in my car as long as I could fix it. If I bought a new $20,000 car, and stuff started breaking I'd be VERY mad.
PLEASE post the link you referenced. how many cars were bought back by competing manufacturers?
one data point is about as useful as one oar.
http://legal1.firn.edu/resale.nsf/944ff5c5c25ddd16852564e200468cde?SearchView
By the way, the number will soon be 182 as they are in the process of buying back my 1999 Accord.
http://legal.firn.edu/lemonlaw/index.html
What does it mean when I search for a manufacturer and it says, "250 documents returned, 2000 found"? I thought the high number might be total documents, but that number changes depending on which manufacturer I put in.
If that is accurate, it looks like a span of 10 years is kept track of...? 180 cars/10 years = 18 cars/year, in a single state. 18 lemons per state? That number sounds huge! Is Honda more willing to take back a car with problems? Can anyone verify this site/these numbers?
Guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference
1) What caused the fuse to blow?
2) What he did to repair it?
3) Will he guarantee it and fix it even if it re-occurs after the warranty.
4) Does it show up as a problem on any of the service bulletins or recalls for this model.
Don't ever let them intimidate you, they work for you and you bought the vehicle with that understanding and as part of the package. Be polite but firm and document EVERYTHING and make sure they know it. I've never had a Toyota/Lexus Honda/Acura dealer give any problem when it came to service and I brought them a car with any type of "real" issues.
The LEMON LAW is for UNFIXABLE problems not for everyday nicks and scratches, just like insurance you dont go there unless its a real MAJOR dent or scrape.
I don't disagree that you got a terrible car. That doesn't mean all Honda/Acura products are terrible (or even that a great many are).
If you're talking about the overall quality of a manufacturer, you can compare their data with that of the competition:
182 Hondas
2055 Chryslers
3233 Fords
3608 GMs
469 Toyotas
78 Mercedes
237 Hyundais
etc...
Compare those numbers to the number of each type of car sold in the state (ford sells more cars than Honda, so they're not as bad as the above numbers make them seem, for example), and you'd get a more valuable picture. (% of cars bought back)
Of course, each manufacturer will have its own policy for buybacks, so this percentage could be somewhat skewed, but all the manufacturers must comply with Florida and federal laws - they're on a level playing field.
All I'm saying is that when you write "My car is a piece of garbage" you'll get sympathy; when you write "All Acuras/Hondas/whatevers are garbage" without any evidence whatsoever, you get annoying jerks like me poking holes into your argument.
good luck with your buyback,
garth
- 3000 mile: oil change
- 7500 mile: first scheduled maintenance. Squeak from moonroof when shade not in place and rough road. Fixed by lubricating the seals.
- Since the, every 3000-3500 mile, have gotten oil change done, and 7500 mile service done. The car feels new to date, everything looks and feels new, except tires whose 70-75% life seems to be over. No rattle, squeak from any part, no starting problems, no transmission problem.
November 1999:
Got my second Honda (Prelude)
Next car... a Honda or Acura will be definitely on my list.
I don't care if JD Powers has #1 ratings for Honda or last, as long as I know that my first Honda turned out to be an excellent value and take my abuse (heavy footed) and plan to keep it for a long time (5-6 years more).
I know that to reddog, a car not starting is a minor problem, but please place yourself in 100 degree plus heat in a state where it is a felony to leave your dog in the car in this weather, dripping in sweat, hoping you remembered to fill the water bottle, and that your doctor won't charge you for the missed appointment while you wait for what may me anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to get this baby started. Imagine this happening a minimum of 10 times a summer -- such that you actually begin to think it is all part of car ownership, just like kicking the old '50 Chevy. Worse yet, imagine after 9 years having an independent shop diagnose and fix the problem, and then realizing how that car had held you hostage.
Personally, I would never tell someone not to buy a Honda. Obviously the record is in their favor. But I would tell them to be tenacious if they get a bad one, because MY experience was that Honda was unwilling to budge. And interestingly, no one I know has bought a Honda in the past 9-10 years, just because they got tired of picking me up at the shop or sitting with me in the heat waiting for it to start. All they did was laugh at me when I tried to tell them that aside from it's problems, it really was a good car.
My own Honda Accord experience would in fact not cause me to avoid Honda. My original list of "to consider" included both the Accord, CRV and Passport, but I did not find the new Accord as comfortable as either my old one or the Toyota Camry. It was,though, probably the nasty remarks by so many Honda loyalists that ultimately led me to chose the Isuzu Rodeo over the Passport for my SUV.
I assume that being a woman is also why they charged me $180 to change a radiator hose and $12 to change an air filter I had changed the day before. Ah, but yes, with a little assertiveness I was able to get the charges reduced or eliminated.
You repeated over and over and over and over, your sad tale of woe, ad nauseum.
You spoke of "troubles" that were so bizarre, that, well, people didn't believe you after awhile.
But, having said that, and giving you every benefit of the doubt, you may have simply had a totally incompetant dealer. I guess that can happen...?
Also, when you spoke of having been thrown out of a dealership, I'm sure some of us had to wonder what the "other side of the story" was.
There are always two sides to every story, right?
Toyota dealers here use to have a real reputation for being scumbuckets, but everyone tells me that they are best in town now.
Having said that, I once ran a shop. It was a very busy shop that did quality work. Even so, there was the rare customer that was never happy no matter what we did for them. I can remember throwing out only two customers. If I were willing to relate the reasons why here, I think every reader would wonder why I was as patient as I was!
I'm not saying these were bad people, and I'm not even saying their problems weren't real. It's just that no matter what I did, it was never to their liking.
Obviously, I don't know whatever you guys seem to know about Urchin, but if I were the salesperson, I would have been scrambling to have that car replaced by the time it came in for the fourth time. This is a SERIOUS and POTENTIALLY DEADLY situation if not properly diagnosed, especially if if the driver is elderly, has health problems, or transports children, etc.
http://www.off-road.com/~kemanuel/V6-HG.htm
I'd like to see a GM dealer do that.....:0(
misplaced apostrophes just drive me batty.
i'll hide this post because it's off-topic.
If you take time and carefully read my post, you'll notice that I said prove to me that all American cars are bad. NO WHERE did I say that all American cars are good (Which is what YOU said... not me), because I simply don't believe that. It is stupid to generalize all cars from one area as being good or bad (American, European, or Japanese). A few American cars that I personally don't like (at all) include the Neon, most SUVs, and the Cavalier (just a few examples.) I don't like these for many reasons including size. Are they bad, for me yes, for others no. For some people, these cars are great.
I don't believe that all American cars are good, but I do believe that many of them are very good.
Reddogs,
You listed a bunch of American cars, but what is wrong with them? Some of the cars you listed have above average reliability (Lumina, Monte Carlo, etc.)Also, looking through your list, I noticed that it only involved GM and Chrysler (which is actually German now.) Does this mean that Ford is not included in your "all american cars are bad" statement?
I will agree with you that GM needs to do something. There are only a few cars GM makes that I would possibly buy (as opposed to most of Ford.) As of now, of the cars you listed, I'd only think about the Impala, Corvette, Grand Prix, Grand Am, and possibly the Intrigue. Of the 4 door sedans, I feel that the Ford Taurus is better than any of the above. The Corvette is in a class of it's own. Ford has the Mustang (which I feel is better than the Firebird/Camaro), but it doesn't compare to the Corvette.
As for Chrysler, I feel that they still have severe quality issues. They have made GREAT improvements in this lately though.
I just took exception when you said that ALL american cars are bad. I will agree with you that there are some less than desireable. There are many that I don't really like either.
american cars are double-plus ungood!
(been too long since i read "1984"...)
sable93, in all seriousness, i think you should reread my post with an eye toward smarta$$ sarcasm. i meant no harm, honest. clearly, those blanket statements are silly.
how's this:
there are more good japanese cars, as a percentage of all cars made, than there are good american cars, though this gap is narrowing.
ok?
Percentage wise, you are probably correct, but the gap is narrowing VERY quickly. I think Ford has more or less bridged the gap. As for GM, they just have too many products. They need to consolidate. Chrysler isn't American anymore, but they have a quality issue that they seem to be dealing with. Honda seems to have a problem keeping their previous level of quality. Not sure about Toyota.
I've been wondering about something recently. In the last few years, Honda Civics and Accords have become very popular among teenagers and early twenty-somethings. Here at Miami University, tons of the students drive them. I wonder how this will affect the resale and overall reliability of these models in the future. Teenagers aren't well known for taking good care of their cars (although I take pretty good care of my Sable.)
inject the amount of money the Japanese want
for their humdrum cars into the equation, the
gap narrows further, making it almost
insignificant.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/columns/TightCorners/000221_Flint.asp?idSection=006&idCategory=02
Good observation about the Prizm. I must have read over that list too quickly.
Well reddogs, does that mean the Toyota Corolla belongs on that list too?
{%^) your host, Bruce
Having gone through several corporate buyouts (Leveraged, IPO, Hostile, you name it) I can honestly say that it is rare for any company to assimilate the attributes of it's new found (adoptive) parent.
Bottom line: I really think Chrysler will continue to be Chrysler, not an American Benz.
just my $0.02.
your host, Bruce
i do agree, though - buying a japanese car these days doesn't offer enough reliability advantages to justify the purchase on that basis alone. there are a few really bad apples out there, but in general people can pretty much buy whatever they LIKE and get a decent car.
Some cars remain better than others, and depreciate much faster, however, with proper care, almost anything will go 150,000 miles or more.
Lesson learned -- don't buy in the first model year, especially if it is also manufactured at a new plant. Be less trusting of those who tell you the problem is "solved" or "will be taken care of". And always remember to check the dealer's reputation and attitude before it is too late. If I had done that, I might have known in advance "you don't understand, we just sell them, we don't stand behind them".
Chrysler be a German company, you bet your bottom dollar. Who showed up for the annoucement of the new cyber company to conslidate ordering for the Big 3 but a German corparate official, you will not see an American at any major decision making press meeeting anymore, the face of Chrysler is German. They are ambitious and proud those Tuetonic warriors, and take there prize captives away by force...and show them off with glee..