You know, coming here and reading these posts has really disgusted me. All this talk about Honda's history and reliability...and if someone has a problem with their Honda, they obviously are a small minority and an exception to the 99% of proud and happy Honda owners. I have just visited Florida's Lemon Law site and in Florida alone, there have been 181 Lemons that American Honda has acknowledged and bought back. This does not take into account the people who do not seek the relief from this program or the people who brainwash themselves into thinking, "it must just be me....it certainly can't really be my Honda with the problem". Multiply this average figure by 52 and you have more than just a FEW "disgruntled lemon owners". And might I also point out that these vehicles are not bought back simply because a radio knob fell off. So maybe many of you are relying on the wrong statistics when making your decisions regarding Honda's reliability and maybe if you were as informed regarding these issues as you try to make everyone think you are, you would have a little more respect for those experiencing problems.
The majority of Hondas are trouble-free so if you start complaining of minor problems (car wont start, knob falls off) you irritate "real" Honda owners and they blow the complainer out of the topic. Now if you have drivetrain problems, that is serious and every potential buyer would like to know about it and more. If my Honda had any problems, I'd be at the dealers 9 minutes later and make sure he fixed it or else he wouldn't be a dealer much longer when I finished with him. So either way, it doesnt look good when you sit on a problem for years and don't get it fixed or you complain about something that was a minor problem and you couldn't handle it.
I think it is unreasonable to call the problems you listed minor. Car won't start = 3000 lb paperweight in my driveway. Completely unacceptable for a new car. I was ticked when my '93 Sable wouldn't start during an extended cold front here in Cincinnati. The battery was 7 years old, but I was still irritated. Multiply my frustration by 1000 if the car is very new.
Knob falls off = Car is falling apart. Shoddy quality. I could stand it if a knob fell off in my car as long as I could fix it. If I bought a new $20,000 car, and stuff started breaking I'd be VERY mad.
"unhappyv6owner" - PLEASE post the link you referenced. how many cars were bought back by competing manufacturers? one data point is about as useful as one oar.
I followed your JD Powers link and I must say that it doesn't offer much credibility to me being a 1998 survey. Maybe you're unaware of the many known problems with the 1999 and 2000 models. I guess I could probably state that at some given time, pretty much all manufacturers have received commendable responses. Show me a more recent survey with equal satisfaction from Honda owners.
Following is the direct link to the Honda lemons that have been bought back in Florida. As far as the number of buybacks from other manufacturers.....I find that irrelevant. Are those of us who received poor quality vehicles supposed to accept the fact that Honda's reliability is going to crap just because Chrysler has performed more buybacks? Give me a break!
This is not a .gove website. Is this a private site? Does Florida not use the .gov domain?
What does it mean when I search for a manufacturer and it says, "250 documents returned, 2000 found"? I thought the high number might be total documents, but that number changes depending on which manufacturer I put in.
If that is accurate, it looks like a span of 10 years is kept track of...? 180 cars/10 years = 18 cars/year, in a single state. 18 lemons per state? That number sounds huge! Is Honda more willing to take back a car with problems? Can anyone verify this site/these numbers?
If one knob, part or process was not within specs, I'd be at the Honda dealer quicker than the grim reaper on death (he is actually about 9 minutes away) and make him correct the problem to perfection or as close to it as humanly posible, then thank him and be on my merry way. I just finished doing it for a relatives '98 Passport with a blown fuse, it doesn't seem like much but I went with him and told the Service Manager I wanted to know: 1) What caused the fuse to blow? 2) What he did to repair it? 3) Will he guarantee it and fix it even if it re-occurs after the warranty. 4) Does it show up as a problem on any of the service bulletins or recalls for this model.
Don't ever let them intimidate you, they work for you and you bought the vehicle with that understanding and as part of the package. Be polite but firm and document EVERYTHING and make sure they know it. I've never had a Toyota/Lexus Honda/Acura dealer give any problem when it came to service and I brought them a car with any type of "real" issues. The LEMON LAW is for UNFIXABLE problems not for everyday nicks and scratches, just like insurance you dont go there unless its a real MAJOR dent or scrape.
unhappy, the reason statistics from other manufacturers is relevant is that it helps to validate "Hondas are crap" type statements. 182 Hondas bought back - so what?
I don't disagree that you got a terrible car. That doesn't mean all Honda/Acura products are terrible (or even that a great many are).
If you're talking about the overall quality of a manufacturer, you can compare their data with that of the competition:
Compare those numbers to the number of each type of car sold in the state (ford sells more cars than Honda, so they're not as bad as the above numbers make them seem, for example), and you'd get a more valuable picture. (% of cars bought back)
Of course, each manufacturer will have its own policy for buybacks, so this percentage could be somewhat skewed, but all the manufacturers must comply with Florida and federal laws - they're on a level playing field.
All I'm saying is that when you write "My car is a piece of garbage" you'll get sympathy; when you write "All Acuras/Hondas/whatevers are garbage" without any evidence whatsoever, you get annoying jerks like me poking holes into your argument.
I owned Toyotas and then in late '97, car shopping made me buy my first Honda, the '98 Accord. I didn't consider Honda's "reliability" record as my buying point. It was all about what I got in return. I have read most of the posts pertaining to Accord problems, surprisingly, my Accord was one of the first from the complete redesign, now has 38K miles in 2.5 years. Here is the complete history: - 3000 mile: oil change - 7500 mile: first scheduled maintenance. Squeak from moonroof when shade not in place and rough road. Fixed by lubricating the seals. - Since the, every 3000-3500 mile, have gotten oil change done, and 7500 mile service done. The car feels new to date, everything looks and feels new, except tires whose 70-75% life seems to be over. No rattle, squeak from any part, no starting problems, no transmission problem.
November 1999: Got my second Honda (Prelude)
Next car... a Honda or Acura will be definitely on my list.
I don't care if JD Powers has #1 ratings for Honda or last, as long as I know that my first Honda turned out to be an excellent value and take my abuse (heavy footed) and plan to keep it for a long time (5-6 years more).
"If you say 'my car is a piece of garbage' you will get sympathy". Sorry guys, all I ever said about Honda, was that my car was a bad one with any number of well documented ones. The car was in the shop any number of times regarding the starting problem, and because of the wierd manner in which it manifested itself I ended up with 5 batteries and 2 ignitions in six years. Then came the distributor, multiple tune-ups and the suggestion that I was just using bad gas. When I complained about my car elsewhere, I was called every name in the book, including some not in my vocabulary. Not once did I say Honda made bad cars. In fact, it is because Honda makes such great cars that I would have expected them to respond to this obvious problem. But instead, I was called dirty names, and the dealer ultimately refused to service me. Incidentally, among colleagues, I am known as the last to anger, which is probably why I put up with the problems so long.
I know that to reddog, a car not starting is a minor problem, but please place yourself in 100 degree plus heat in a state where it is a felony to leave your dog in the car in this weather, dripping in sweat, hoping you remembered to fill the water bottle, and that your doctor won't charge you for the missed appointment while you wait for what may me anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to get this baby started. Imagine this happening a minimum of 10 times a summer -- such that you actually begin to think it is all part of car ownership, just like kicking the old '50 Chevy. Worse yet, imagine after 9 years having an independent shop diagnose and fix the problem, and then realizing how that car had held you hostage.
Personally, I would never tell someone not to buy a Honda. Obviously the record is in their favor. But I would tell them to be tenacious if they get a bad one, because MY experience was that Honda was unwilling to budge. And interestingly, no one I know has bought a Honda in the past 9-10 years, just because they got tired of picking me up at the shop or sitting with me in the heat waiting for it to start. All they did was laugh at me when I tried to tell them that aside from it's problems, it really was a good car.
If my dealer were only 9 minutes away and I didn't have to wait at least 5 hours every time I took it in, it also would have been less annoying. Why did I have to drive 20 miles across town to have them check the color of the seatbelt, window latch, sun visor, plastic parts, etc. just so they could order it when they should have been able to figure it out over the phone? Each time, it meant I had to make a return trip to pick up the part or have it installed.
Sometimes people imagine noises or vibrations and force the dealer to try and fix a non-existant problem(s). Then when the dealer tells them the truth they refuse to believe it and go from dealer to dealer spewing at their disbelief....
The problem was the main relay under the dash. Others have documented this same problem in Topic #436. Please note that as recently as this past fall, Honda was unaware of the cause of this problem, and that my problems began in 1991. I did indeed go to both local dealers, but not "spewing" anything, just looking for an answer. The nature of the problem is such that you can't replicate it, but I even had passengers and "good samaritans" who tried to help me document how the problem manifested itself in hope it would lead to a solution. Numerous misdirected attemts (5 batteries, 2 ignitions, electrical system repair, etc.) were made to fix the problem. Thus the car perhaps appeared to have more problems than it really did, but I also went through two complete sets of CV boots and motor mounts in under 70,000 miles, as well as having a number of minor broken parts such as window latches, air vents, heater, air conditioner, etc. So Honda produced one bad car with problems that others did not have. Big deal.
My own Honda Accord experience would in fact not cause me to avoid Honda. My original list of "to consider" included both the Accord, CRV and Passport, but I did not find the new Accord as comfortable as either my old one or the Toyota Camry. It was,though, probably the nasty remarks by so many Honda loyalists that ultimately led me to chose the Isuzu Rodeo over the Passport for my SUV.
Main relay should be an easy fix I don't understand how it could be a problem. Electrical problems are tricky but not hard to pin down, thats why I play 20 questions with the service rep to make sure they check it all the way whenever their is a small thing like a blown fuse or ANY little electrical problem. They can be symptoms of bigger problems and I want it nailed down and fixed before it damages anything no matter how trivial. It doesnt matter if the dealer is aware of problems or not, its always best to grill and drill them to make sure ANY problem is analyzed and taken care of with precision and dispatch and documented in case any problems arise later. Now if the owner is tearing up the car thats another thing altogether and I can understand why a dealer might be hesitant to get into that...
Yeah, I know, those fully paved roads I drove on really did tear that baby up. The truth is, I have always assumed that something happened to that Accord long before the dealer ever set eyes on it (or he just enjoyed charging me for unnecessary repairs). Could an earthquake have rattled the poor thing that hard?
Please also remember that when a woman plays 20 questions with the service rep, she is likely to be called a certain name.
I assume that being a woman is also why they charged me $180 to change a radiator hose and $12 to change an air filter I had changed the day before. Ah, but yes, with a little assertiveness I was able to get the charges reduced or eliminated.
..good dealers take care of a customer no matter who or what, and as a matter of fact usually my wife does most of the drills and grills with the service rep while I check with the mechanics and she's never had a problem. I've got throw out >>>>>>> of a few dealerships, but thats another story...........:0)
Geesh, I never would have believed a Honda rep would treat a customer the way you have -- just hope you aren't really Toyota salesmen. If Urchin lives where I think he does, you have to know the dealer. I've kept my Accord for 14 years, just because I don't want to have anything to do with the locals (and if you get a new car on warranty, you'll have to see them sooner or later).
Toyota dealers here use to have a real reputation for being scumbuckets, but everyone tells me that they are best in town now.
Not all dealers treat customers alike. I'm glad I work for a place that has very high ratings for great service and customer treatment.
Having said that, I once ran a shop. It was a very busy shop that did quality work. Even so, there was the rare customer that was never happy no matter what we did for them. I can remember throwing out only two customers. If I were willing to relate the reasons why here, I think every reader would wonder why I was as patient as I was!
I'm not saying these were bad people, and I'm not even saying their problems weren't real. It's just that no matter what I did, it was never to their liking.
What part of the country is it, I know when I was in DC the dealers (didn't matter which) were attitude from the word go. I had to watch then like a hawk and re-check all their work any time I went in for service and if you wanted to buy a car you had to dicker for hours before they even began to budge. They had what they called ADP (Additional Dealer Profit) right on the sticker and it was $2000-3000 depending on the car, and that was on top of all the add ons and ticky tacky charges. I cut my teeth on these dealers and everything after that is easy dealings or easy pickings depending what I doing.....:0)
Somehow, I got the idea it was Arizona, but don't know how -- maybe just projection of my own and some of my friends' experiences. At any rate, if I had to go through even one summer here with a faulty relay, you would here me screaming all the way to DC. A second summer, and I'd probably be bashing the car all across the Internet. There really was no reason for anyone to have to suffer for what looks like it could have been 8 or 9 years with a problem like that. The problem is that you have no way of knowing when the car will or will not start. Unless you are lucky enough to figure out that hitting the underside of the dash might help, you just have to sit until it decides to turn over. I hope Honda has issued a service bulletin on this by now.
Obviously, I don't know whatever you guys seem to know about Urchin, but if I were the salesperson, I would have been scrambling to have that car replaced by the time it came in for the fourth time. This is a SERIOUS and POTENTIALLY DEADLY situation if not properly diagnosed, especially if if the driver is elderly, has health problems, or transports children, etc.
I think Honda got its reliable-reputation back when US makers were cranking out bad cars--Hondas were not that great, but the US cars were so lousy it made the Hondas seem terrific. The US makers have learned alot since those days and can compete with any asian maker (if the people will give them a chance). Besides, Honda exploits their reputation by charging way too much.
reddogs, PROVE to us that 2000 US cars are bad. If you can prove with FACTS that every single US car is lousy, we'll believe you. Otherwise, don't make such broad generalizations. There are some lousy foreign cars too. Not all of them, but some....
ok, PROVE to us that 2000 US cars are good. If you can prove with FACTS that every single US car is good, I'll believe you. Otherwise, don't post such ridiculous requests. If you cannot prove this, then I guess I'm forced to go on believing that every single car manufactured in North America is a total piece of junk. Save me from this horrible fate.
If you take time and carefully read my post, you'll notice that I said prove to me that all American cars are bad. NO WHERE did I say that all American cars are good (Which is what YOU said... not me), because I simply don't believe that. It is stupid to generalize all cars from one area as being good or bad (American, European, or Japanese). A few American cars that I personally don't like (at all) include the Neon, most SUVs, and the Cavalier (just a few examples.) I don't like these for many reasons including size. Are they bad, for me yes, for others no. For some people, these cars are great.
I don't believe that all American cars are good, but I do believe that many of them are very good.
Reddogs,
You listed a bunch of American cars, but what is wrong with them? Some of the cars you listed have above average reliability (Lumina, Monte Carlo, etc.)Also, looking through your list, I noticed that it only involved GM and Chrysler (which is actually German now.) Does this mean that Ford is not included in your "all american cars are bad" statement?
Ford is actually doing very good with its Pickups, Mustangs, Jaguars, and Volvos. The Lincoln Mercury line looks strong espesially the Navigator and at the rate they are going will probably catch up and pass GM in market share in the near future. Chrysler is now a German brand ...GM, on the other hand is not making anything that is hot, Corvette is limited and the Camaro/Firebird is on hold, other than those models they are flatlining.
I will agree with you that GM needs to do something. There are only a few cars GM makes that I would possibly buy (as opposed to most of Ford.) As of now, of the cars you listed, I'd only think about the Impala, Corvette, Grand Prix, Grand Am, and possibly the Intrigue. Of the 4 door sedans, I feel that the Ford Taurus is better than any of the above. The Corvette is in a class of it's own. Ford has the Mustang (which I feel is better than the Firebird/Camaro), but it doesn't compare to the Corvette.
As for Chrysler, I feel that they still have severe quality issues. They have made GREAT improvements in this lately though.
I just took exception when you said that ALL american cars are bad. I will agree with you that there are some less than desireable. There are many that I don't really like either.
sable93, in all seriousness, i think you should reread my post with an eye toward smarta$$ sarcasm. i meant no harm, honest. clearly, those blanket statements are silly.
how's this:
there are more good japanese cars, as a percentage of all cars made, than there are good american cars, though this gap is narrowing.
Percentage wise, you are probably correct, but the gap is narrowing VERY quickly. I think Ford has more or less bridged the gap. As for GM, they just have too many products. They need to consolidate. Chrysler isn't American anymore, but they have a quality issue that they seem to be dealing with. Honda seems to have a problem keeping their previous level of quality. Not sure about Toyota.
I've been wondering about something recently. In the last few years, Honda Civics and Accords have become very popular among teenagers and early twenty-somethings. Here at Miami University, tons of the students drive them. I wonder how this will affect the resale and overall reliability of these models in the future. Teenagers aren't well known for taking good care of their cars (although I take pretty good care of my Sable.)
US cars are not lousy--this is a silly claim. Your list also included the Prizm which is the same as the Toyota Corolla (they're even made at the same factory), and NO ASIAN maker has anything even comparable to the Camaro or Firebird (price and horsepower).
The US makers offer fine cars and vans (and their trucks simply kill the asian competition). Most of the cars you listed fare as well as any asian car. Should Honda bend over backward to fullfill warranty service?--hell yes, you paid enough for the service, it's the least they can do! I have bought cars (and one truck)from Toyota, Mazda, and Dodge--Mazda's service dept. impressed me the most, but all were fairly equal. And don't be too quick to bash certain cars--Chrylsler gets some of it's engines from Mitsubishi and Ford owns Mazda.
The cars that Honda and Toyota export to the US are of a higher calibre than the ones marketed to many other countries--they keep their "crap-cars" at home because they know Americans will not buy them.
The % claim is probably correct, but when you inject the amount of money the Japanese want for their humdrum cars into the equation, the gap narrows further, making it almost insignificant.
I humbly submit that it takes more than a change in ownership stake to make a company conform to the stereotypical norms that we associate with certain nationalities. (PC enough for you...)
Having gone through several corporate buyouts (Leveraged, IPO, Hostile, you name it) I can honestly say that it is rare for any company to assimilate the attributes of it's new found (adoptive) parent.
Bottom line: I really think Chrysler will continue to be Chrysler, not an American Benz.
i do agree, though - buying a japanese car these days doesn't offer enough reliability advantages to justify the purchase on that basis alone. there are a few really bad apples out there, but in general people can pretty much buy whatever they LIKE and get a decent car.
I don't know if there are any really * Bad * cars out there. I do have a short list of a few brands I have no confidence in, however, much of that bias is my own based on personal experiences.
Some cars remain better than others, and depreciate much faster, however, with proper care, almost anything will go 150,000 miles or more.
I checked out the site reddogs posted. I can't argue with it that Toyota stands behind its product. I owned a Celica for 15 years and could not have been happier with the service. The dealer even got Toyota to repaint the car when it oxized all the way through to the primer in less than years, even though it was not on warranty. I think the fabulous customer service provided by Toyota was probably why I expected the same of Honda. As to why I didn't buy another Toyota - they changed the Celica body style too much and I wasn't ready for the four door Camry. Honda made what I thought was the perfect two door coupe. Unfortunately, it was also among the first made in America.
Lesson learned -- don't buy in the first model year, especially if it is also manufactured at a new plant. Be less trusting of those who tell you the problem is "solved" or "will be taken care of". And always remember to check the dealer's reputation and attitude before it is too late. If I had done that, I might have known in advance "you don't understand, we just sell them, we don't stand behind them".
Prism/Corolla lack style don't like either one, (you can add Camry to that, after the Celica models it looks very bland, I will quote urchin34 on that "they changed the Celica body style too much and I wasn't ready for the four door Camry.") Toyota is very durable but its been kind of dull lately, but thats why I got a Toyota Pickup and its at 150k with no problems..dull but reliable..
Chrysler be a German company, you bet your bottom dollar. Who showed up for the annoucement of the new cyber company to conslidate ordering for the Big 3 but a German corparate official, you will not see an American at any major decision making press meeeting anymore, the face of Chrysler is German. They are ambitious and proud those Tuetonic warriors, and take there prize captives away by force...and show them off with glee..
Comments
The majority of Hondas are trouble-free so if you
start complaining of minor problems (car wont
start, knob falls off) you irritate "real" Honda owners and they blow the complainer
out of the topic. Now if you have drivetrain
problems, that is serious and every potential buyer would like to know about it and more. If my Honda had any problems, I'd be at the dealers 9
minutes later and make sure he fixed it or else he
wouldn't be a dealer much longer when I finished
with him. So either way, it doesnt look good when
you sit on a problem for years and don't get it
fixed or you complain about something that was a
minor problem and you couldn't handle it.
I think it is unreasonable to call the problems you listed minor. Car won't start = 3000 lb paperweight in my driveway. Completely unacceptable for a new car. I was ticked when my '93 Sable wouldn't start during an extended cold front here in Cincinnati. The battery was 7 years old, but I was still irritated. Multiply my frustration by 1000 if the car is very new.
Knob falls off = Car is falling apart. Shoddy quality. I could stand it if a knob fell off in my car as long as I could fix it. If I bought a new $20,000 car, and stuff started breaking I'd be VERY mad.
PLEASE post the link you referenced. how many cars were bought back by competing manufacturers?
one data point is about as useful as one oar.
http://legal1.firn.edu/resale.nsf/944ff5c5c25ddd16852564e200468cde?SearchView
By the way, the number will soon be 182 as they are in the process of buying back my 1999 Accord.
http://legal.firn.edu/lemonlaw/index.html
What does it mean when I search for a manufacturer and it says, "250 documents returned, 2000 found"? I thought the high number might be total documents, but that number changes depending on which manufacturer I put in.
If that is accurate, it looks like a span of 10 years is kept track of...? 180 cars/10 years = 18 cars/year, in a single state. 18 lemons per state? That number sounds huge! Is Honda more willing to take back a car with problems? Can anyone verify this site/these numbers?
Guitarzan
Community Leader/Vans Conference
1) What caused the fuse to blow?
2) What he did to repair it?
3) Will he guarantee it and fix it even if it re-occurs after the warranty.
4) Does it show up as a problem on any of the service bulletins or recalls for this model.
Don't ever let them intimidate you, they work for you and you bought the vehicle with that understanding and as part of the package. Be polite but firm and document EVERYTHING and make sure they know it. I've never had a Toyota/Lexus Honda/Acura dealer give any problem when it came to service and I brought them a car with any type of "real" issues.
The LEMON LAW is for UNFIXABLE problems not for everyday nicks and scratches, just like insurance you dont go there unless its a real MAJOR dent or scrape.
I don't disagree that you got a terrible car. That doesn't mean all Honda/Acura products are terrible (or even that a great many are).
If you're talking about the overall quality of a manufacturer, you can compare their data with that of the competition:
182 Hondas
2055 Chryslers
3233 Fords
3608 GMs
469 Toyotas
78 Mercedes
237 Hyundais
etc...
Compare those numbers to the number of each type of car sold in the state (ford sells more cars than Honda, so they're not as bad as the above numbers make them seem, for example), and you'd get a more valuable picture. (% of cars bought back)
Of course, each manufacturer will have its own policy for buybacks, so this percentage could be somewhat skewed, but all the manufacturers must comply with Florida and federal laws - they're on a level playing field.
All I'm saying is that when you write "My car is a piece of garbage" you'll get sympathy; when you write "All Acuras/Hondas/whatevers are garbage" without any evidence whatsoever, you get annoying jerks like me poking holes into your argument.
good luck with your buyback,
garth
- 3000 mile: oil change
- 7500 mile: first scheduled maintenance. Squeak from moonroof when shade not in place and rough road. Fixed by lubricating the seals.
- Since the, every 3000-3500 mile, have gotten oil change done, and 7500 mile service done. The car feels new to date, everything looks and feels new, except tires whose 70-75% life seems to be over. No rattle, squeak from any part, no starting problems, no transmission problem.
November 1999:
Got my second Honda (Prelude)
Next car... a Honda or Acura will be definitely on my list.
I don't care if JD Powers has #1 ratings for Honda or last, as long as I know that my first Honda turned out to be an excellent value and take my abuse (heavy footed) and plan to keep it for a long time (5-6 years more).
I know that to reddog, a car not starting is a minor problem, but please place yourself in 100 degree plus heat in a state where it is a felony to leave your dog in the car in this weather, dripping in sweat, hoping you remembered to fill the water bottle, and that your doctor won't charge you for the missed appointment while you wait for what may me anywhere from 10 minutes to an hour to get this baby started. Imagine this happening a minimum of 10 times a summer -- such that you actually begin to think it is all part of car ownership, just like kicking the old '50 Chevy. Worse yet, imagine after 9 years having an independent shop diagnose and fix the problem, and then realizing how that car had held you hostage.
Personally, I would never tell someone not to buy a Honda. Obviously the record is in their favor. But I would tell them to be tenacious if they get a bad one, because MY experience was that Honda was unwilling to budge. And interestingly, no one I know has bought a Honda in the past 9-10 years, just because they got tired of picking me up at the shop or sitting with me in the heat waiting for it to start. All they did was laugh at me when I tried to tell them that aside from it's problems, it really was a good car.
My own Honda Accord experience would in fact not cause me to avoid Honda. My original list of "to consider" included both the Accord, CRV and Passport, but I did not find the new Accord as comfortable as either my old one or the Toyota Camry. It was,though, probably the nasty remarks by so many Honda loyalists that ultimately led me to chose the Isuzu Rodeo over the Passport for my SUV.
I assume that being a woman is also why they charged me $180 to change a radiator hose and $12 to change an air filter I had changed the day before. Ah, but yes, with a little assertiveness I was able to get the charges reduced or eliminated.
You repeated over and over and over and over, your sad tale of woe, ad nauseum.
You spoke of "troubles" that were so bizarre, that, well, people didn't believe you after awhile.
But, having said that, and giving you every benefit of the doubt, you may have simply had a totally incompetant dealer. I guess that can happen...?
Also, when you spoke of having been thrown out of a dealership, I'm sure some of us had to wonder what the "other side of the story" was.
There are always two sides to every story, right?
Toyota dealers here use to have a real reputation for being scumbuckets, but everyone tells me that they are best in town now.
Having said that, I once ran a shop. It was a very busy shop that did quality work. Even so, there was the rare customer that was never happy no matter what we did for them. I can remember throwing out only two customers. If I were willing to relate the reasons why here, I think every reader would wonder why I was as patient as I was!
I'm not saying these were bad people, and I'm not even saying their problems weren't real. It's just that no matter what I did, it was never to their liking.
Obviously, I don't know whatever you guys seem to know about Urchin, but if I were the salesperson, I would have been scrambling to have that car replaced by the time it came in for the fourth time. This is a SERIOUS and POTENTIALLY DEADLY situation if not properly diagnosed, especially if if the driver is elderly, has health problems, or transports children, etc.
http://www.off-road.com/~kemanuel/V6-HG.htm
I'd like to see a GM dealer do that.....:0(
misplaced apostrophes just drive me batty.
i'll hide this post because it's off-topic.
If you take time and carefully read my post, you'll notice that I said prove to me that all American cars are bad. NO WHERE did I say that all American cars are good (Which is what YOU said... not me), because I simply don't believe that. It is stupid to generalize all cars from one area as being good or bad (American, European, or Japanese). A few American cars that I personally don't like (at all) include the Neon, most SUVs, and the Cavalier (just a few examples.) I don't like these for many reasons including size. Are they bad, for me yes, for others no. For some people, these cars are great.
I don't believe that all American cars are good, but I do believe that many of them are very good.
Reddogs,
You listed a bunch of American cars, but what is wrong with them? Some of the cars you listed have above average reliability (Lumina, Monte Carlo, etc.)Also, looking through your list, I noticed that it only involved GM and Chrysler (which is actually German now.) Does this mean that Ford is not included in your "all american cars are bad" statement?
I will agree with you that GM needs to do something. There are only a few cars GM makes that I would possibly buy (as opposed to most of Ford.) As of now, of the cars you listed, I'd only think about the Impala, Corvette, Grand Prix, Grand Am, and possibly the Intrigue. Of the 4 door sedans, I feel that the Ford Taurus is better than any of the above. The Corvette is in a class of it's own. Ford has the Mustang (which I feel is better than the Firebird/Camaro), but it doesn't compare to the Corvette.
As for Chrysler, I feel that they still have severe quality issues. They have made GREAT improvements in this lately though.
I just took exception when you said that ALL american cars are bad. I will agree with you that there are some less than desireable. There are many that I don't really like either.
american cars are double-plus ungood!
(been too long since i read "1984"...)
sable93, in all seriousness, i think you should reread my post with an eye toward smarta$$ sarcasm. i meant no harm, honest. clearly, those blanket statements are silly.
how's this:
there are more good japanese cars, as a percentage of all cars made, than there are good american cars, though this gap is narrowing.
ok?
Percentage wise, you are probably correct, but the gap is narrowing VERY quickly. I think Ford has more or less bridged the gap. As for GM, they just have too many products. They need to consolidate. Chrysler isn't American anymore, but they have a quality issue that they seem to be dealing with. Honda seems to have a problem keeping their previous level of quality. Not sure about Toyota.
I've been wondering about something recently. In the last few years, Honda Civics and Accords have become very popular among teenagers and early twenty-somethings. Here at Miami University, tons of the students drive them. I wonder how this will affect the resale and overall reliability of these models in the future. Teenagers aren't well known for taking good care of their cars (although I take pretty good care of my Sable.)
inject the amount of money the Japanese want
for their humdrum cars into the equation, the
gap narrows further, making it almost
insignificant.
http://www.thecarconnection.com/columns/TightCorners/000221_Flint.asp?idSection=006&idCategory=02
Good observation about the Prizm. I must have read over that list too quickly.
Well reddogs, does that mean the Toyota Corolla belongs on that list too?
{%^) your host, Bruce
Having gone through several corporate buyouts (Leveraged, IPO, Hostile, you name it) I can honestly say that it is rare for any company to assimilate the attributes of it's new found (adoptive) parent.
Bottom line: I really think Chrysler will continue to be Chrysler, not an American Benz.
just my $0.02.
your host, Bruce
i do agree, though - buying a japanese car these days doesn't offer enough reliability advantages to justify the purchase on that basis alone. there are a few really bad apples out there, but in general people can pretty much buy whatever they LIKE and get a decent car.
Some cars remain better than others, and depreciate much faster, however, with proper care, almost anything will go 150,000 miles or more.
Lesson learned -- don't buy in the first model year, especially if it is also manufactured at a new plant. Be less trusting of those who tell you the problem is "solved" or "will be taken care of". And always remember to check the dealer's reputation and attitude before it is too late. If I had done that, I might have known in advance "you don't understand, we just sell them, we don't stand behind them".
Chrysler be a German company, you bet your bottom dollar. Who showed up for the annoucement of the new cyber company to conslidate ordering for the Big 3 but a German corparate official, you will not see an American at any major decision making press meeeting anymore, the face of Chrysler is German. They are ambitious and proud those Tuetonic warriors, and take there prize captives away by force...and show them off with glee..