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Comments
I actually had ordered a 2001 4X4 Quad with 4 wheel ABS until I ended up buying an almost identical model off the dealers lot. One option missing on the QC I purchased was the 4 wheel ABS. I was concerned.
(My previous vehicle was a '94 Explorer that had 4 wheel ABS and I had gotten used to staying on the brakes and letting the ABS work in slippery conditions.)
Well, I'm here to tell you, in Southern Wisconsin, we have just come off of THE snowiest December in history. It snowed about 27 of 31 days. The 4WD got a workout! I never felt unsafe at any time when hitting the brakes on the QC. Even when I hit them hard to induce lockup at times (when safety permitted), this truck stopped. This was all at speeds one would expect to be driving when the snow is between a trace and 8" deep.
Not sure if it's tires, vehicle or snow type, but this truck never had a problem stopping or felt out of control. The ONLY time I felt the truck start to slide was when turning at intersections and the snow was more slushy or greasy feeling. Then the front slid a bit but ABS wouldn't have helped that. Only a little "blip" of the thottle in 4WD helped the tires grab.
I'm no longer concerned with being "without".
fat_fenders
Professional drivers are trained to use threshold braking. In other words, you keep your tires at the threshold of skidding, while still allowing them to roll.
You should try to not confuse opinion with scientific fact.
People have a tendancy to panic and slam on the brakes - ask the average Joe what "threshold braking" is and you'll get a blank stare 9 times out of 10
I believe that non ABS in the hands of a skilled driver will stop faster.
Non-ABS in the hands of 95 percent of the population will simply skid out of control.
One other benefit of ABS is that it allows continual and effective steering input. So you have a chance of avoiding that deer, telephone pole or pedestrian, instead of being a mere projectile, because once you start to skid, you might aswell bend over and kiss your butt goodbye!
The secret to ABS is let the computer do the work, we instinctively pump the brakes and that is wrong.
I would say it is absolutely essential on the rear brakes.
Now one other word about 4 wheeldrive.It tends to getpeople into deeper trouble because of it's acceleration. It doesn't help you stop faster and people tend to overdrive the road conditions because of it.
TD
"Road&Track did a study on the different types of brakes and found that locked-up tires (ie. slamming on the brakes) will stop a vehicle much quicker than one equiped with ABS. Even on ice.
Even the pumping brakes technique managed to stop a vehicle quicker than ABS since there is still sufficient lock-up."
Again, I do agree with you in that I do not like ABS. What I did not agree with are the statements above taken from your previous post. There is absolutely no way that a vehicle with "locked-up tires" can stop faster than a vehicle with ABS. Can a vehicle without ABS stop quicker than a vehicle with ABS? Absolutely, If you can keep your tires from skidding and keep them at the threshold of static friction.
I also agree that the technique of pumping the brakes may allow a vehicle to stop quicker than a vehicle with ABS, but I do not know what you mean by "sufficient lock-up."
One thing we can do is agree to disagree. I have owned several vehicles with ABS, and I did not like the performance of the systems at the time. While test driving a Silverado several months ago, it seemed the ABS engaged prematurely when braking while travelling over the slightest joint in the pavement. One Silverado owner commented that his did this also when his truck was new, but that the system must have "broken in" because it no longer did this. Scary!
Yes, you are probably correct.
Actually, I think that the whole thing would have to come down to the designing and/or engineering behind the ABS on that, or any, particular vehicle.
Driving my dad's Dakota (pre '96 if I remember correctly) the ABS acted strange and scared the piss out of me.
The ABS in my '99 Rodeo has scared me several times since I feel that I "reacts" inappropriately to the condition involved.
However, the new ABS systems might be better. Perhaps a new Mercedes would have an ABS system that works well, I don't know....
I might also add another thing to think about;
Most of the time, anytime I have had ABS kick in has usually been on snow or ice. The major thought behind ABS is to promote the ability to steer in a panic situation on these surfaces.
However, each time I have had ABS activate, on snow or ice, there was never an ability to steer simply because the conditions were so slippery that the front wheels simply plowed forwards due to the momentum/weight of the car. In my opinion, ABS is not, by any means, a save-all invention. I have yet to have it actually "help" me in any given situation that I have encountered.
I honestly feel that ABS has been highly over-promoted by the vehicle manufactures and salesmen as a white knight on a horse that is going to save everybody's lives. I put it in the same catagory as airbags (SRS). What a joke!
Working as a paramedic for several years, I saw things that would scare you to death concerning air bags. If I had my choice, I would probably take those out too. Especially the passenger side.
Why???
Because proper education on these "safety" devices must exist in order for the average consumer to benifit from them. The only education that people get is from the news-media. We all know how reliable they are. (2000 election, etc..)
Car manufactures are just more interested in making money than educating the public.
If somebody out there does not agree with this statement, then I have one word for you:
FORD
I have no respect ("hate" might be a better word here, actually) for Ford for several reasons besides the Firestone thing and would never, ever condider buying one.
Let's just hope Dodge doesn't let me down.
Ive seen this kind of damage on Sport-Bikes because the clutch and front brake mastercylinder/resevior is on top of the handlebars... Most prople just remove the covers, pour brakefluid in and let it run all over and down the painted, plastic fairings on these bikes...It doenst take long before it discolors the paint and eveltually makes the plastic so brittle that it cracks.....
Id check to make sure the mechanic didnt "Top-Off" the brake or clutch reseviors, and drip the stuff all over...
Im sure someone else in here could tell you if antifreeze could do this type of damage or not..but i KNOW that brake fluid can do it, especially on plastic...
CHAD, Greensboro
I suppose now that you pried the information out of me you are going to make me feel bad and buy one! Oh Well! If you do send us a picture. Rick
Bookitty
The gray plastic material does seem to be soft and I would be concerned that it would "melt" if painted. (I remember the days of model building and some plastics would melt if the wrong paint was used)
Guess I will look for an aftermarket or sport bumper eventually.
Does the truckin magazine have a web site or do you know of a web site which shows the bumper that you mentioned?
Has anyone installed bumper / grill inserts? If so, how do you like them and which brand did you go with.
Thanks!
bobs5: I had my gray parts painted shortly after getting my quad. The body shop had no problems doing it. They mentioned that the rough texture would not look exact;y like the smooth body panels. I like the look and it is holding up just fine so far.
ABS: Abs is fine for what it does. A skidding vehicle is going to stop faster because it is always being braked. If you are in a large open area with nothing around, ABS is worthless. ABS is designed to give steering control under panic braking and that is the only advantage. ABS is a problem if you tow over 6000 lbs. Since about 70% of the braking is done by the front tires and that is where the steering is, rear wheel ABS is worthless.
Tire pressure: Too many people do not pay attention to the recommended tire pressures or properly check their tires. The big deal happened when Firestone tried to get someone else to be responsible for their pathetic product. To shift the blame to Ford, they got on this tire pressure business. Ford does like anyone does and gave a range of tire pressure which was approved by Firestone. Ford's mistake was they overestimated the intelligence of the average driver and overly trusted the integrity of Firestone/Bridgestone. I have always liked Fords because of the good, reliable service they give. Not like GM products which I refer to as 'hanger queens'.
On the way back from Colorado, I saw what had to be five of the new generation, pre-production Ram pickups. They were being driven along I-70 towards Denver on Saturday, wearing full camoflauge body cladding. There was a MBP Dakota Quad just like mine in the middle of them, possibly a support vehicle. Later I will give full details of my trip here.
The important details: Highest price gas, 1.479. Lowest mpg, 16.5, highest 18.2, average 17.2. The high end matches the performance of my 91 F150 in the mountains, but the flat land runs are 2-3 mpg better.
Averaged 44 mph going and 55 mph on the return. If you discount the stops, 52 going, 63 return. On the interstates, the limit is 70-75, but when we hit Oakley it was big snow. The flakes were refered to as elephant turds. Humongous suckers. We barely got through Colby and they must have closed the gates behind us. The Q did great, but had a semi force us off the pavement once when passing. We hit Goodland and the wet stuff was behind us, but then we had 40 mph winds with partial whiteout conditions. Visibilty range from car length to 1/8 mile until we got to Limon. Took a rest there and the gates east were closed. West of Denver on the west slope, the weather was a little nasty, but nothing major. We just had to be careful of slippery curves. In western Kansas we saw (1) jacknifed semi and 5-6 vehicles in the ditch. Nothing major. If anything was off the road west of Goodland, we couldn't have seen it. The quad took everything in stride. We did have to clear the front grill at Limon and Denver. The snow had packed in the grill openings and then froze into a solid block.
Return trip - we hit some precip east of Rifle. A semi was in the with the drivers in the air and the box on the side, jacknifed. They were unloading the box as we passed, with two tows ready to right. Had a yahoo pass us west of Vail. 2-3 miles further he was trying to get out of a snowbank and facing east again. Several vehicles in the ditch and maybe on the east slope, a jeep was upside down. Passed on tandem rig with chains on one axle that was just spinning them and another rig that was trying to get through without chains and without getting caught. Went through the Eisenhower just before noon and all three lanes on the east slope were backed up 3-4 miles. Every 4-wheeler had a ski rack on and I think every trucker was pissed. As I mentioned before, we passed a convoy of pickups that had black vinyl covers over the body panels to hid the appearance. Since Dodge is the only maker bringing out a new pickup soon and there was a Dakota Quad in the midst, I have to assume that they were pre-production mules.
We convoyed with my BIL's 97 Explorer (4.0/4wd/Auto). The Quad got 5-10% better mileage and had a lot more zip in the mountains. Since we do not have the ARE Z top yet, we only carried two ice chests and the boot bag in the back end. My BIL carried the the ski bag and we put the rest of the gear in the back seat area. We ahd two large soft sided bags and fitted them in the floorboards. We then used some blankets and a sleeping bag to make a bed over the back seat area. We had a couple of small bags that we moved around as needed. Periodically, my wife or I would take a nap for a few hours on the bed. It is a little short for my 5'10", but we could get a decent rest anyway. My old F150 was a little better for this as it had about another 8 inches of width to lie down. For those who are interested, I also had 100 lbs of sand in the back and in the drawer I built between the wheel wells, I had all my emergency gear and tools.
I realize that this is the internet equivalent of vaction slides, but I thought someone might be interested in how someone else used their Quad and how it did.
For those of you with 4-wheel ABS the same is not true. Once the pedal pulses, all four wheels are being stopped as quickly as the ABS system will allow. Just stay on it and concentrate on steering.
But this gives me the opportunity to ask one more question before ordering. My dealer mentioned that he didn't think that a limited slip dif was worth the money. His reasoning was that all you have to do is pop it into 4WD if you start spinning alittle. Is this really a good thought process, or am I going to regret it when there is a little ice at the intersections and I have to throw my truck into 4WD? Also, does a LSD help out in 4WD too? (I am not real knowledgeable when it comes to transmission/drive trains)
I know there has been alot of discussion about this, but I would still like alittle feedback. Thanks.
With LSD you still dont have 4 wheels but you have 3 wheels working. For
$250 it is worth it!!
TD
For me, there were three factors:
1. Cost. Not a worry for me as my budget is 25k-26Kkand I can get a 4x4 for that.
2. Safety. I will not think twice to the "can I make it" questions...even though I may only really "use" 4wd 3-4 times a year.
3. Looks/pride. To me, it was either a 4x4 or a lowered R/T with cool wheels. My answer..See # 1 and 2.
My and only my opinion: 4x4 with LSD
But this gives me the opportunity to ask one more question before ordering. My dealer mentioned that he didn't think that a limited slip dif was worth the money. His reasoning was that all you have to do is pop it into 4WD if you start spinning alittle. Is this really a good thought process, or am I going to regret it when there is a little ice at the intersections and I have to throw my truck into 4WD? Also, does a LSD help out in 4WD too? (I am not real knowledgeable when it comes to transmission/drive trains)
I know there has been alot of discussion about this, but I would still like alittle feedback. Thanks.
Thanks
I hope this is right.
How long does it take for a truck to come in once it's ordered?
Limited Slip Differntial: A car dealer that tells you that 4WD eliminates the need for LSD is one of the following; A jackass that knows not, or has in inventory a 4WD that the order manager (another jackass) ordered in for stock, and it is growing older on the lot.
Farm Bureau discount ($500.00); The Farm Bureau discount is available to any and all members, who have been members for a minimum of 30 days prior to "delivery." It is not necessary to inform the dealer at the time of ordering so that he can "bury" your $500.00 into the deal during negotiations. When I joined after ordering my 2000 Quad cab, I called my Farm Bureau Benefits representative, and they sent me the discount coupon (after 3o days). I presented the coupon when the documents were being prepared on the day that I took delivery. The $500.00 came off (at my insistence) the price prior to administering the PA State sales and use tax (another $30.00 although some states may be different), as I presented the coupon to the young lady preparing the documents. That's exactly the time when the dealer became aware that I had the coupon. The FB fee for PA is $75.00. Great deal! To join the Farm Bureau, you do not have to participate in any other FB programs, neither do you have to own and/or work on a farm. Please do not complicate this very simple process by involving the dealer other than handing him the coupon. A few years ago, AARP magazine, Modern Maturity had a coupon for $1000.00 towards a Buick. My aunt was interested, and I took her shopping. The first thing that she tried to do, (as most senior citizens might) was to try to hand the coupon to the salesman and ask how it works. I told her that if she did that, I might have to break her arm off (my aunt is a real hoot)and beat her over the head with it. When we had negotiated the deal down to the very last penny, I handed him the coupon. His chin dropped almost to the floor and he said, "I wish you had told me about this before." I replied that I was certain that he did, but the coupon read to make your best deal before presenting it. My aunt still laughs about this today.
To contact the Farm Bureau, click on this link; http://www.fb.com. Then go to your state link. If your state link does not provide sufficient information, go to a state that has a larger more active membership, like PA or IL or some midwest area that has more of a farming industry. Need help? We are here for you!
Bookitty
Bookitty
Bookitty
and I hope she can come.
Bookitty
Thanks,
trglick
for 200$ under invoice. I felt better going through my local dealer and didnt
mind paying a few more $$. Besides, the salesman was very nice and even
deducted the tags& transfer cost!!
http://www.geocities.com/plainsranger/index.html
You inspect your vehicle. If it doesn't meet your expectations, you don't have to sign for it. It's that simple. (See Delivery Bill of Rights for details)." I would probably try to use the Carsdirect price at local dealers and then if I could not strike a deal, attempt to go through Carsdirect.
Bookitty
a. Mileage difference?
b. Safety benefits of AWD vs. part time?
c. LSD w/AWD... necessary?
d. Reliability issues?
Any and all responses would be appreciated.
a. Mileage difference? Traditionally, full time 4WD tends to lower mpg and increase tire wear by "scuffing."
b. Safety benefits of AWD vs. part time? In my honest opinion safety margins are infinitesimal except perhaps for people who are not familiar with 4WD systems and usage. It was really designed
for "soccer moms" and other people who think they need 4WD but don't want to think about it. If "shift-on-the-fly" were unavailable, it would hold increased merit. In addition, the only full time 4WD system that really performs is the Jeep "quadratrac."
c. LSD I/AWD... necessary? No matter what type of drive line you have, and regardless of 2WD or 4WD, LSD runs from very important to an absolute necessity.
d. Reliability issues? I cannot personally render an opinion regarding reliability. We have only owned 2 vehicles with full time 4WD and both of them were field converted to part time utilizing after market Warn hubs. Fuel and tire wear dictated that move.
Tom, please do not interpret "soccer moms" as derogatory, but I am trying to emphasize the large number of 4WD SUV (and even trucks) who haven't an inkling as to the workings of the system and the potential it affords. Then there are the overconfident who think that it protects them from all evil. One must learn to drive properly in inclement weather and under harsh conditions. Most times, it is much more about "stopping" than "going."
Bookitty
http://www.reflexxion.com/html/dodge2.html
From the ad it is also available in black painted finish too! Rick
Thanks,
Earl
their 2000 Quad is a "factory re-purchased" truck.
I'll bet it runs a lot better. That's because I paid $23,716.00 brand new, Loaded, but with 5 speed and 4.7. Golly, now I feel guilty. Or, maybe
I could call my truck; "factory re-purchased" and sell it for a profit.
Bookitty