I actually had ordered a 2001 4X4 Quad with 4 wheel ABS until I ended up buying an almost identical model off the dealers lot. One option missing on the QC I purchased was the 4 wheel ABS. I was concerned.
(My previous vehicle was a '94 Explorer that had 4 wheel ABS and I had gotten used to staying on the brakes and letting the ABS work in slippery conditions.)
Well, I'm here to tell you, in Southern Wisconsin, we have just come off of THE snowiest December in history. It snowed about 27 of 31 days. The 4WD got a workout! I never felt unsafe at any time when hitting the brakes on the QC. Even when I hit them hard to induce lockup at times (when safety permitted), this truck stopped. This was all at speeds one would expect to be driving when the snow is between a trace and 8" deep.
Not sure if it's tires, vehicle or snow type, but this truck never had a problem stopping or felt out of control. The ONLY time I felt the truck start to slide was when turning at intersections and the snow was more slushy or greasy feeling. Then the front slid a bit but ABS wouldn't have helped that. Only a little "blip" of the thottle in 4WD helped the tires grab.
Although I also do not like ABS, you are totally wrong!! Any first year engineering student can prove to you beyond the shadow of a doubt that the coefficient of dynamic friction (i.e. locked up tires sliding across pavement) is much less than the coefficient of static friction (i.e. rolling tires coming to a controlled stop). I am sure that tires and other equipment play a large role in the performance of ABS brakes, but there is no way that a vehicle with tires skidding across pavement comes to a stop quicker than a vehicle with all four wheels decelerating under controlled conditions.
Professional drivers are trained to use threshold braking. In other words, you keep your tires at the threshold of skidding, while still allowing them to roll.
You should try to not confuse opinion with scientific fact.
I think the concept of ABS is kinda geared at the lowest common demoninator.
People have a tendancy to panic and slam on the brakes - ask the average Joe what "threshold braking" is and you'll get a blank stare 9 times out of 10
I believe that non ABS in the hands of a skilled driver will stop faster.
Non-ABS in the hands of 95 percent of the population will simply skid out of control.
One other benefit of ABS is that it allows continual and effective steering input. So you have a chance of avoiding that deer, telephone pole or pedestrian, instead of being a mere projectile, because once you start to skid, you might aswell bend over and kiss your butt goodbye!
The secret to ABS is let the computer do the work, we instinctively pump the brakes and that is wrong. I would say it is absolutely essential on the rear brakes.
Now one other word about 4 wheeldrive.It tends to getpeople into deeper trouble because of it's acceleration. It doesn't help you stop faster and people tend to overdrive the road conditions because of it.
"Road&Track did a study on the different types of brakes and found that locked-up tires (ie. slamming on the brakes) will stop a vehicle much quicker than one equiped with ABS. Even on ice.
Even the pumping brakes technique managed to stop a vehicle quicker than ABS since there is still sufficient lock-up."
Again, I do agree with you in that I do not like ABS. What I did not agree with are the statements above taken from your previous post. There is absolutely no way that a vehicle with "locked-up tires" can stop faster than a vehicle with ABS. Can a vehicle without ABS stop quicker than a vehicle with ABS? Absolutely, If you can keep your tires from skidding and keep them at the threshold of static friction.
I also agree that the technique of pumping the brakes may allow a vehicle to stop quicker than a vehicle with ABS, but I do not know what you mean by "sufficient lock-up."
One thing we can do is agree to disagree. I have owned several vehicles with ABS, and I did not like the performance of the systems at the time. While test driving a Silverado several months ago, it seemed the ABS engaged prematurely when braking while travelling over the slightest joint in the pavement. One Silverado owner commented that his did this also when his truck was new, but that the system must have "broken in" because it no longer did this. Scary!
Let me start by saying I'm the proud owner of a 2001 4X4 quad cab. We purchased a 01 Toyota MR2 Spyder and took it in for the 1000 mile servicing today. When my daughter got home with the car, we found gold spots on the back end. We inspected the engine compartment and found dried liquid all over the inside. It appears that the mechanic opened the radiator resevoir and antifreeze sprayed everywhere. There is damage to one tail light lense that took away the shine. What I am wondering now is...what are the long term effects of antifreeze to the paint and aluminum parts. Does anyone know?
Actually, I think that the whole thing would have to come down to the designing and/or engineering behind the ABS on that, or any, particular vehicle.
Driving my dad's Dakota (pre '96 if I remember correctly) the ABS acted strange and scared the piss out of me.
The ABS in my '99 Rodeo has scared me several times since I feel that I "reacts" inappropriately to the condition involved.
However, the new ABS systems might be better. Perhaps a new Mercedes would have an ABS system that works well, I don't know....
I might also add another thing to think about; Most of the time, anytime I have had ABS kick in has usually been on snow or ice. The major thought behind ABS is to promote the ability to steer in a panic situation on these surfaces. However, each time I have had ABS activate, on snow or ice, there was never an ability to steer simply because the conditions were so slippery that the front wheels simply plowed forwards due to the momentum/weight of the car. In my opinion, ABS is not, by any means, a save-all invention. I have yet to have it actually "help" me in any given situation that I have encountered.
I honestly feel that ABS has been highly over-promoted by the vehicle manufactures and salesmen as a white knight on a horse that is going to save everybody's lives. I put it in the same catagory as airbags (SRS). What a joke! Working as a paramedic for several years, I saw things that would scare you to death concerning air bags. If I had my choice, I would probably take those out too. Especially the passenger side.
Why???
Because proper education on these "safety" devices must exist in order for the average consumer to benifit from them. The only education that people get is from the news-media. We all know how reliable they are. (2000 election, etc..) Car manufactures are just more interested in making money than educating the public. If somebody out there does not agree with this statement, then I have one word for you:
FORD
I have no respect ("hate" might be a better word here, actually) for Ford for several reasons besides the Firestone thing and would never, ever condider buying one.
I dont know about antifreeze being harmful to paint or not,(I definitely wouldnt pour it all over my fenders though..) but it probably wont hurt aluminum...I believe that alot of radiators out there ARE aluminum....BUT, the damage to the tailight sounds more like BRAKE fluid damage...
Ive seen this kind of damage on Sport-Bikes because the clutch and front brake mastercylinder/resevior is on top of the handlebars... Most prople just remove the covers, pour brakefluid in and let it run all over and down the painted, plastic fairings on these bikes...It doenst take long before it discolors the paint and eveltually makes the plastic so brittle that it cracks.....
Id check to make sure the mechanic didnt "Top-Off" the brake or clutch reseviors, and drip the stuff all over...
Im sure someone else in here could tell you if antifreeze could do this type of damage or not..but i KNOW that brake fluid can do it, especially on plastic...
Norm - See the January 2001 issue of the "Truckin'" magazine. After page 214 there is a multipage advertisement for Autobahn Wholesale (800 555-9207). 10 pages into this ad there is a listing for "Distinctive Truck Accessories" The picture shows it on a Dak and it say for 97-99 Dodge Dakota and 98-99 Durango. Even one better on the opposite page there is a listing for 100% steel cowl induction hoods (another dream of mine) and there is a red Dak with the induction hood, grill inserts and the chromed steel lower fascia. I suppose now that you pried the information out of me you are going to make me feel bad and buy one! Oh Well! If you do send us a picture. Rick
Thanks Rick, but it may not happen too quickly. I am having problems getting it past the "Ways and Means" committee. My wife said; "No way and I mean it!" Just joking, she would tell me to get it if I like it.
Thank you for the information about the painting of the bumpers.
The gray plastic material does seem to be soft and I would be concerned that it would "melt" if painted. (I remember the days of model building and some plastics would melt if the wrong paint was used)
Guess I will look for an aftermarket or sport bumper eventually.
Does the truckin magazine have a web site or do you know of a web site which shows the bumper that you mentioned?
Has anyone installed bumper / grill inserts? If so, how do you like them and which brand did you go with.
Now that Y2K is behind us, is there anyone out there with production/sales statistics of the Quad Cab for last year? How many were produced in total, and what percentage of all Dakotas made were Quad Cabs?
I have a '01 QC with only rear ABS and regular front brakes. What is the correct method of stopping with this combo? Do you pump or get on them till they lock up?
I have lots to say after being gone on a ski trip for a week. bobs5: I had my gray parts painted shortly after getting my quad. The body shop had no problems doing it. They mentioned that the rough texture would not look exact;y like the smooth body panels. I like the look and it is holding up just fine so far. ABS: Abs is fine for what it does. A skidding vehicle is going to stop faster because it is always being braked. If you are in a large open area with nothing around, ABS is worthless. ABS is designed to give steering control under panic braking and that is the only advantage. ABS is a problem if you tow over 6000 lbs. Since about 70% of the braking is done by the front tires and that is where the steering is, rear wheel ABS is worthless. Tire pressure: Too many people do not pay attention to the recommended tire pressures or properly check their tires. The big deal happened when Firestone tried to get someone else to be responsible for their pathetic product. To shift the blame to Ford, they got on this tire pressure business. Ford does like anyone does and gave a range of tire pressure which was approved by Firestone. Ford's mistake was they overestimated the intelligence of the average driver and overly trusted the integrity of Firestone/Bridgestone. I have always liked Fords because of the good, reliable service they give. Not like GM products which I refer to as 'hanger queens'.
On the way back from Colorado, I saw what had to be five of the new generation, pre-production Ram pickups. They were being driven along I-70 towards Denver on Saturday, wearing full camoflauge body cladding. There was a MBP Dakota Quad just like mine in the middle of them, possibly a support vehicle. Later I will give full details of my trip here.
I am currently looking at Dakota Quads (4.7 motor with LSD) ... My question has to do with whether I would be better off with the 4X2 or 4X4 configuration. I will be using the truck mostly as a daily commuter and occaisionally as a home depot runner (no heavy stuff or towing). I live in eastern PA and we occasionally get some snow (like this year). I like the idea of a 4X2 for the following reasons : better handling (?) .. quieter (tire type?), maybe better gas mileage, potentially less problematic (no 4 wheel drive transfer case, and maybe most importantly less expensive (around 2500.00). 99% of the time, I won't be driving in snow but I don't want to be kicking myself the first time I really need the 4 wheel drive. Is it realistic to think that I can cutover to dedicated winter tires and 5 or 6 sandbags in the bed when the snow comes ? All thoughts and experience is appreciated. (also does anyone know yet what the NEW incentive will be on the Quads starting tommorrow ?)
Left out at 4:40 Saturday morning(1-13). I-35 to Wichita, I-135 to Salina, I-70 to mm 49 in Colorado. Total trip one way - 877 miles. Six days of skiing, great time. Did a flip on the most difficult run when I caught the edge on a rock. I am going to have a bum shoulder for a while (miamap injury), but I still gt in the last day of skiing. Left on 1-20, same route.
The important details: Highest price gas, 1.479. Lowest mpg, 16.5, highest 18.2, average 17.2. The high end matches the performance of my 91 F150 in the mountains, but the flat land runs are 2-3 mpg better. Averaged 44 mph going and 55 mph on the return. If you discount the stops, 52 going, 63 return. On the interstates, the limit is 70-75, but when we hit Oakley it was big snow. The flakes were refered to as elephant turds. Humongous suckers. We barely got through Colby and they must have closed the gates behind us. The Q did great, but had a semi force us off the pavement once when passing. We hit Goodland and the wet stuff was behind us, but then we had 40 mph winds with partial whiteout conditions. Visibilty range from car length to 1/8 mile until we got to Limon. Took a rest there and the gates east were closed. West of Denver on the west slope, the weather was a little nasty, but nothing major. We just had to be careful of slippery curves. In western Kansas we saw (1) jacknifed semi and 5-6 vehicles in the ditch. Nothing major. If anything was off the road west of Goodland, we couldn't have seen it. The quad took everything in stride. We did have to clear the front grill at Limon and Denver. The snow had packed in the grill openings and then froze into a solid block.
Return trip - we hit some precip east of Rifle. A semi was in the with the drivers in the air and the box on the side, jacknifed. They were unloading the box as we passed, with two tows ready to right. Had a yahoo pass us west of Vail. 2-3 miles further he was trying to get out of a snowbank and facing east again. Several vehicles in the ditch and maybe on the east slope, a jeep was upside down. Passed on tandem rig with chains on one axle that was just spinning them and another rig that was trying to get through without chains and without getting caught. Went through the Eisenhower just before noon and all three lanes on the east slope were backed up 3-4 miles. Every 4-wheeler had a ski rack on and I think every trucker was pissed. As I mentioned before, we passed a convoy of pickups that had black vinyl covers over the body panels to hid the appearance. Since Dodge is the only maker bringing out a new pickup soon and there was a Dakota Quad in the midst, I have to assume that they were pre-production mules.
We convoyed with my BIL's 97 Explorer (4.0/4wd/Auto). The Quad got 5-10% better mileage and had a lot more zip in the mountains. Since we do not have the ARE Z top yet, we only carried two ice chests and the boot bag in the back end. My BIL carried the the ski bag and we put the rest of the gear in the back seat area. We ahd two large soft sided bags and fitted them in the floorboards. We then used some blankets and a sleeping bag to make a bed over the back seat area. We had a couple of small bags that we moved around as needed. Periodically, my wife or I would take a nap for a few hours on the bed. It is a little short for my 5'10", but we could get a decent rest anyway. My old F150 was a little better for this as it had about another 8 inches of width to lie down. For those who are interested, I also had 100 lbs of sand in the back and in the drawer I built between the wheel wells, I had all my emergency gear and tools.
I realize that this is the internet equivalent of vaction slides, but I thought someone might be interested in how someone else used their Quad and how it did.
On the note of rough ride with 44 PSI. My Quad is a 2wd with the 215 tires. So these smaller tires react much different than those balloon tires on the 4wd Quads. Even the dealership checked and noted on my paper work that the tires were inflated to 44 PSI.
every one should have received a copy of d/c's tire pressure/load appication guide with your owners manual materials.... this guide list all the tire sizes,psi ratings depending on load,and max load info for every van and truck d/c makes...... according to this guide the correct pressures for the 265/65r16's incl on the t&h pkg are 30psi f and 35 psi r... i personally run 33 in the front and 30-32 in the rear unless i'm carry a load in which i jack the pressure in rears to 35psi like i did this weekend while carrying my 400lb atv.
Zonk, you'll find that if you're ever in a panic stop that the rear wheels will pulse via ABS before the front wheels skid, at least when the truck's not loaded. You should concentrate on stopping the truck and retaining steering control by not locking up the front wheels. When you feel the pedal pulse, that's the ABS effectively adjusting the braking pressure to the rear for you, so you can (and should) still apply more pedal force after it pulses until you feel you're near the limit of what the tires will take. ABS will take care of keeping the rears turning. For those of you with 4-wheel ABS the same is not true. Once the pedal pulses, all four wheels are being stopped as quickly as the ABS system will allow. Just stay on it and concentrate on steering.
I know I posted about a week ago that I was going to order my Quad the next day, but we still haven't finished all of the financing crap yet.
But this gives me the opportunity to ask one more question before ordering. My dealer mentioned that he didn't think that a limited slip dif was worth the money. His reasoning was that all you have to do is pop it into 4WD if you start spinning alittle. Is this really a good thought process, or am I going to regret it when there is a little ice at the intersections and I have to throw my truck into 4WD? Also, does a LSD help out in 4WD too? (I am not real knowledgeable when it comes to transmission/drive trains)
I know there has been alot of discussion about this, but I would still like alittle feedback. Thanks.
If you just have 4-wheel drive with no lsd you only have 2 wheels working. With LSD you still dont have 4 wheels but you have 3 wheels working. For $250 it is worth it!!
I live in Oklahoma and we avg 10 -30 snowy days a year. I have decided to order a 4x4 due to recent experience...I recently used my wife's full time 4x4 Explorer during the recent snows and had zero problems or worries. AND, I saw many 2wd trucks spinning on the ice on the slightest uphill grade.
For me, there were three factors:
1. Cost. Not a worry for me as my budget is 25k-26Kkand I can get a 4x4 for that. 2. Safety. I will not think twice to the "can I make it" questions...even though I may only really "use" 4wd 3-4 times a year. 3. Looks/pride. To me, it was either a 4x4 or a lowered R/T with cool wheels. My answer..See # 1 and 2.
I know I posted about a week ago that I was going to order my Quad the next day, but we still haven't finished all of the financing crap yet.
But this gives me the opportunity to ask one more question before ordering. My dealer mentioned that he didn't think that a limited slip dif was worth the money. His reasoning was that all you have to do is pop it into 4WD if you start spinning alittle. Is this really a good thought process, or am I going to regret it when there is a little ice at the intersections and I have to throw my truck into 4WD? Also, does a LSD help out in 4WD too? (I am not real knowledgeable when it comes to transmission/drive trains)
I know there has been alot of discussion about this, but I would still like alittle feedback. Thanks.
I need some help with the Farm Bureau discount on the Dakota. I checked out the Dodge and Farm Bureau websites, but I can't figure out what is involved in getting this discount. Do you have to get Farm Bureau insurance on something? I ordered my Quad Cab today and the dealer said you have to "qualify" for this discount 60 days before delivery. Can someone clarify this for me?
A soon to be a QC owner ordered last week,in regard to the FB discount, the info can not be found on the web sites, you must contact your local office of FB & that I found through my coop. exstention it costs $65. but to save $500. on the rebate is well worth it, you have to be a member for at least 30 days so you better hurry
For under $300 compared to the price of your new Quad >$20,000.00 ? Gor for it and swallow! At times the LSD may kick in when you may not have the luxury of popping into 4WD...
cbagshaw, Riley, I too live in Eastern PA (Bucks County) and have owned 4WD vehicles since the 1960's. For the difference in price, I feel that a 4WD really pays for itself in that it allows you to use the vehicle when you need it regardless of conditions (within the realm of reason). 4WD without limited slip differential (or 2WD) is not a great investment considering that LSD is a relatively inexpensive option. We currently have 3 4WD vehicles (one is a Jeep Wrangler that stays at our beach house). Now, if you have to ask the question as to whether you need 4WD, and further to inquire as to adding weight and more aggressive tires to a 2WD it only serves to lead me to think that you have little or no experience (this is not a judgement, only an observation) driving a 4WD or you would not have to ask. The 4WD Dodge Dakota is quite civilized when it comes to ride and/or noise, as are most current 4WD vehicles today, unlike earlier models that were made for 4WD guys as opposed to soccer moms.
Limited Slip Differntial: A car dealer that tells you that 4WD eliminates the need for LSD is one of the following; A jackass that knows not, or has in inventory a 4WD that the order manager (another jackass) ordered in for stock, and it is growing older on the lot.
Farm Bureau discount ($500.00); The Farm Bureau discount is available to any and all members, who have been members for a minimum of 30 days prior to "delivery." It is not necessary to inform the dealer at the time of ordering so that he can "bury" your $500.00 into the deal during negotiations. When I joined after ordering my 2000 Quad cab, I called my Farm Bureau Benefits representative, and they sent me the discount coupon (after 3o days). I presented the coupon when the documents were being prepared on the day that I took delivery. The $500.00 came off (at my insistence) the price prior to administering the PA State sales and use tax (another $30.00 although some states may be different), as I presented the coupon to the young lady preparing the documents. That's exactly the time when the dealer became aware that I had the coupon. The FB fee for PA is $75.00. Great deal! To join the Farm Bureau, you do not have to participate in any other FB programs, neither do you have to own and/or work on a farm. Please do not complicate this very simple process by involving the dealer other than handing him the coupon. A few years ago, AARP magazine, Modern Maturity had a coupon for $1000.00 towards a Buick. My aunt was interested, and I took her shopping. The first thing that she tried to do, (as most senior citizens might) was to try to hand the coupon to the salesman and ask how it works. I told her that if she did that, I might have to break her arm off (my aunt is a real hoot)and beat her over the head with it. When we had negotiated the deal down to the very last penny, I handed him the coupon. His chin dropped almost to the floor and he said, "I wish you had told me about this before." I replied that I was certain that he did, but the coupon read to make your best deal before presenting it. My aunt still laughs about this today.
To contact the Farm Bureau, click on this link; http://www.fb.com. Then go to your state link. If your state link does not provide sufficient information, go to a state that has a larger more active membership, like PA or IL or some midwest area that has more of a farming industry. Need help? We are here for you!
Thanks for the info Bookitty ! I've only driven the 4X2 Dakota so far, so I need to do the comparison by driving the 4X4 also I guess. My next question concerns Internet Car buying services like CarsDirect.com. I price out my ideal Dakota on Carsdirect and I'm looking at roughly 500.00 UNDER invoice (which includes the $ 1,000.00 rebate offer currently extended to 1/29). Is it realistic to think that I can negotiate a better deal than that using traditional round-robin car dealer negotiations (and FB discount coupons) or am I better off looking more seriously at Carsdirect ?
bookitty, you wouldn't really do that to your aunt, would you? BTW, someone asked earlier if anyone had seen a qc with a lift kit. the January issue of sport truck magazine has an article/demonstration with a 2000 durango being lifted. I'm glad I'm not the only one who has suddenly has to have every truck magazine on the rack. the kit is made by fabtech. Ironically, in the same issue, another article asks dealers what modifications will void your warranty (most of them apparently). the lifted durango looked surprisingly sharp. if your warranty isn't an issue, (and you have the scratch to afford it) you might want to check out www.fabtechmotorsports.com. good luck, and let us know how it turns out.
Riley, I too searched the Internet when I was buying my truck. It was okay until the personal contact was made. Then the usual bull took over with, "I have to check with my manager", etc. I did however use the numbers to strongarm my deal. I recently went through the same drill with my wife's SUV purchase and again used the numbers. My truck had to be ordered, 4.7, 4X4, 5 speed and much more. My wife was able to find a 5 speed Toyota 4runner, and that simplified matters. It had everything she wanted save leather seats, and that was accomplished locally. If Carsdirect works via a dealer, that's where the BS begins. If not, it sounds like a deal if they find you exactly what you want. Remember, that a 4X4 carries a significantly higher resale, and a more dedicated clientele. But, $500.00 under invoice, and the possibility of the Farm Bureau (depending on delivery and if Carsdirect will fudge a little and work with you) sounds like a winner to me. Sometimes you can get a firm price off of the Internet, and go to the Fleet Manager at the local dealer and wave it in his/her face. They may choose to match it. In that case you have the comfort of dealing locally. What area is local?
Scott, I do that to my aunt on a regular basis. She usually returns abuse on a twofold basis. I just asked her to spend the weekend with us on LBI and I hope she can come.
Does anyone have any experience buying vehicles with this site. The quote that I got 2001 QC is the best I have found. I was just wondering how they did on delivering the vehicle and follow up.
I also used internet research, not only for buying my Quad but also to get the fair resale value of my Chevy S10 that I was selling. I used MSN carpoint and Kelley Blue Book Values (www.carpoint.msn.com), 4adodge.com, and of course Edmunds. It was alot of fun when a car sales guy saw me walking in with my Kelley numbers and started to give me BS hubbubb about "Kelley's" wacky numbers as he greased through his well worn NADA book, but the numbers He was showing me were supposed to be Gospel... See Ya!!!
I used carsdirect.com's price as a bargaining tool to get my 2001 CC 4X4 for 200$ under invoice. I felt better going through my local dealer and didnt mind paying a few more $$. Besides, the salesman was very nice and even deducted the tags& transfer cost!!
Some time ago, tried to post photos with no luck. But after a little time and work, I have a site with photos on it, some that show the Pace Edwards roll top cover and also their Bed Rug just incase anyone is interested in what they look like. Thanks all. Link is
I will agree with Boo on this cbagshaw, in that when you need it, the cost of the 4x4 lsd combo will seem small when you can go when and where you want to. And don't forget that you will usually recover the extra cost of these options in resale value with VERY little depreciation. 4x4 almost always retains 75 to 80 % of original cost, here in the midwest, and other snow areas. Stnick.
Bookitty ... I live in Pennsburg so SANDS Bros. would be my closest I guess (any thoughts here?). Carsdirect supposedly works with local dealers so it's possible I could be working with a fleet mgr at a local dealership. Here's a quote from their website "CarsDirect.com works with you and the automotive retailer in your area to arrange the delivery that fits your schedule. You inspect your vehicle. If it doesn't meet your expectations, you don't have to sign for it. It's that simple. (See Delivery Bill of Rights for details)." I would probably try to use the Carsdirect price at local dealers and then if I could not strike a deal, attempt to go through Carsdirect.
Chris, I guess it depends on what how you want your truck equipped, versus what you will settle for in an "on the ground" unit. In my case, all of the Internet suppliers assured me that they could locate "exactly" the truck I wanted. I, on the other hand knew that a 4X4 Quad cab with 4.7 and a 5 speed would be like searching for "hens teeth." The people that I contacted and subsequently spoke with, were Internet people as opposed to truck/car folks. As a matter of course, I was directed to dealerships that only wanted to play head games rather than sell a vehicle. This is when I became disenchanted. I would suggest that you get everything in writing, and if the information comes via E-mail, save it in a folder created in "My Documents." Do I sound distrustful, well good, because I am. My first experience with Reedman Motors in Langhorne, was a tragedy, in that the order manager ordered the wrong axle ratio simply because he did not know what he was doing. He shared the (mis)information with the salesman who decided for one reason or another to exclude me from the loop. The truck came in, I ended up refusing delivery and had to re-order. This time the truck sales manager intervened, and I dealt with him exclusively. He was terrific, and gave me a "sweetheart" extended warranty deal to make up for some of the problems. Good people, good experience. Chris, I cannot emphasize more strongly the collection and assimilation of information prior to purchase. There are many people on this forum who are most happy to help you along in this endeavor. Don't be afraid to ask questions. They will be addressed by enough people to be able to give you a general consensus of opinion.
I'm almost ready to order the QC, but haven't decided on the 4x4 transfer case. Even after extensive research, I can't tell the advantages or disadvantages of the full time vs part time systems. The issue hasn't been explained, at least looking over the the last few hundred posts. Here are my questions:
a. Mileage difference? b. Safety benefits of AWD vs. part time? c. LSD w/AWD... necessary? d. Reliability issues?
Tom, to address your questions; a. Mileage difference? Traditionally, full time 4WD tends to lower mpg and increase tire wear by "scuffing."
b. Safety benefits of AWD vs. part time? In my honest opinion safety margins are infinitesimal except perhaps for people who are not familiar with 4WD systems and usage. It was really designed for "soccer moms" and other people who think they need 4WD but don't want to think about it. If "shift-on-the-fly" were unavailable, it would hold increased merit. In addition, the only full time 4WD system that really performs is the Jeep "quadratrac."
c. LSD I/AWD... necessary? No matter what type of drive line you have, and regardless of 2WD or 4WD, LSD runs from very important to an absolute necessity.
d. Reliability issues? I cannot personally render an opinion regarding reliability. We have only owned 2 vehicles with full time 4WD and both of them were field converted to part time utilizing after market Warn hubs. Fuel and tire wear dictated that move.
Tom, please do not interpret "soccer moms" as derogatory, but I am trying to emphasize the large number of 4WD SUV (and even trucks) who haven't an inkling as to the workings of the system and the potential it affords. Then there are the overconfident who think that it protects them from all evil. One must learn to drive properly in inclement weather and under harsh conditions. Most times, it is much more about "stopping" than "going."
I just got the new oil cap and filler tube baffle fixes installed today by dealer, he stopped by my workplace and put them in right there in the parking lot, Thats Service! Anyway, I will post results after a few days to note improvement in slime reduction. Looks like it should help. Regards all. Stnick.
I bought my truck using the internet from carorder.com I do not think they take orders anymore from the internet. They used to let you build your vehicle, then would give you a price, locked in for a week. They would try to find the vehicle, if not, order it from a nearest dealer. Mine was in NY, I live in VT. I saved a lot. The problem came on delivery. They delivered it on a flat bed, no charge. 14 miles on the truck and the flat bed operator hooked onto it wrong and broke the front end. Complete new left front... everything. (Got a slightly scratched extra rim too) They paid for it but I had to wait for it to get fixed at a local dealer. For my trouble they bought me a $250 in accessories. Happy with the experience except the delivery guy. Local dealer couldn't get within $1800 of their price. You can see my invoice at http://www.geocities.com/stang460_67/Dodge.html
Looking in the Bucks County Midweek newspaper this morning, I noticed a "Factory Re-Purchased" sale (whatever that is) and one of the featured vehicles is a 2000 Quad 4X4, 5.9, Auto, AC, Pwr. Options, CD, Tow Pkg. LOADED! 17K miles, $23,990. Wow!, they're practically giving it away. The strange part is that while my 2000 Quad is "used", their 2000 Quad is a "factory re-purchased" truck. I'll bet it runs a lot better. That's because I paid $23,716.00 brand new, Loaded, but with 5 speed and 4.7. Golly, now I feel guilty. Or, maybe I could call my truck; "factory re-purchased" and sell it for a profit.
Comments
I actually had ordered a 2001 4X4 Quad with 4 wheel ABS until I ended up buying an almost identical model off the dealers lot. One option missing on the QC I purchased was the 4 wheel ABS. I was concerned.
(My previous vehicle was a '94 Explorer that had 4 wheel ABS and I had gotten used to staying on the brakes and letting the ABS work in slippery conditions.)
Well, I'm here to tell you, in Southern Wisconsin, we have just come off of THE snowiest December in history. It snowed about 27 of 31 days. The 4WD got a workout! I never felt unsafe at any time when hitting the brakes on the QC. Even when I hit them hard to induce lockup at times (when safety permitted), this truck stopped. This was all at speeds one would expect to be driving when the snow is between a trace and 8" deep.
Not sure if it's tires, vehicle or snow type, but this truck never had a problem stopping or felt out of control. The ONLY time I felt the truck start to slide was when turning at intersections and the snow was more slushy or greasy feeling. Then the front slid a bit but ABS wouldn't have helped that. Only a little "blip" of the thottle in 4WD helped the tires grab.
I'm no longer concerned with being "without".
fat_fenders
Professional drivers are trained to use threshold braking. In other words, you keep your tires at the threshold of skidding, while still allowing them to roll.
You should try to not confuse opinion with scientific fact.
People have a tendancy to panic and slam on the brakes - ask the average Joe what "threshold braking" is and you'll get a blank stare 9 times out of 10
I believe that non ABS in the hands of a skilled driver will stop faster.
Non-ABS in the hands of 95 percent of the population will simply skid out of control.
One other benefit of ABS is that it allows continual and effective steering input. So you have a chance of avoiding that deer, telephone pole or pedestrian, instead of being a mere projectile, because once you start to skid, you might aswell bend over and kiss your butt goodbye!
The secret to ABS is let the computer do the work, we instinctively pump the brakes and that is wrong.
I would say it is absolutely essential on the rear brakes.
Now one other word about 4 wheeldrive.It tends to getpeople into deeper trouble because of it's acceleration. It doesn't help you stop faster and people tend to overdrive the road conditions because of it.
TD
"Road&Track did a study on the different types of brakes and found that locked-up tires (ie. slamming on the brakes) will stop a vehicle much quicker than one equiped with ABS. Even on ice.
Even the pumping brakes technique managed to stop a vehicle quicker than ABS since there is still sufficient lock-up."
Again, I do agree with you in that I do not like ABS. What I did not agree with are the statements above taken from your previous post. There is absolutely no way that a vehicle with "locked-up tires" can stop faster than a vehicle with ABS. Can a vehicle without ABS stop quicker than a vehicle with ABS? Absolutely, If you can keep your tires from skidding and keep them at the threshold of static friction.
I also agree that the technique of pumping the brakes may allow a vehicle to stop quicker than a vehicle with ABS, but I do not know what you mean by "sufficient lock-up."
One thing we can do is agree to disagree. I have owned several vehicles with ABS, and I did not like the performance of the systems at the time. While test driving a Silverado several months ago, it seemed the ABS engaged prematurely when braking while travelling over the slightest joint in the pavement. One Silverado owner commented that his did this also when his truck was new, but that the system must have "broken in" because it no longer did this. Scary!
Yes, you are probably correct.
Actually, I think that the whole thing would have to come down to the designing and/or engineering behind the ABS on that, or any, particular vehicle.
Driving my dad's Dakota (pre '96 if I remember correctly) the ABS acted strange and scared the piss out of me.
The ABS in my '99 Rodeo has scared me several times since I feel that I "reacts" inappropriately to the condition involved.
However, the new ABS systems might be better. Perhaps a new Mercedes would have an ABS system that works well, I don't know....
I might also add another thing to think about;
Most of the time, anytime I have had ABS kick in has usually been on snow or ice. The major thought behind ABS is to promote the ability to steer in a panic situation on these surfaces.
However, each time I have had ABS activate, on snow or ice, there was never an ability to steer simply because the conditions were so slippery that the front wheels simply plowed forwards due to the momentum/weight of the car. In my opinion, ABS is not, by any means, a save-all invention. I have yet to have it actually "help" me in any given situation that I have encountered.
I honestly feel that ABS has been highly over-promoted by the vehicle manufactures and salesmen as a white knight on a horse that is going to save everybody's lives. I put it in the same catagory as airbags (SRS). What a joke!
Working as a paramedic for several years, I saw things that would scare you to death concerning air bags. If I had my choice, I would probably take those out too. Especially the passenger side.
Why???
Because proper education on these "safety" devices must exist in order for the average consumer to benifit from them. The only education that people get is from the news-media. We all know how reliable they are. (2000 election, etc..)
Car manufactures are just more interested in making money than educating the public.
If somebody out there does not agree with this statement, then I have one word for you:
FORD
I have no respect ("hate" might be a better word here, actually) for Ford for several reasons besides the Firestone thing and would never, ever condider buying one.
Let's just hope Dodge doesn't let me down.
Ive seen this kind of damage on Sport-Bikes because the clutch and front brake mastercylinder/resevior is on top of the handlebars... Most prople just remove the covers, pour brakefluid in and let it run all over and down the painted, plastic fairings on these bikes...It doenst take long before it discolors the paint and eveltually makes the plastic so brittle that it cracks.....
Id check to make sure the mechanic didnt "Top-Off" the brake or clutch reseviors, and drip the stuff all over...
Im sure someone else in here could tell you if antifreeze could do this type of damage or not..but i KNOW that brake fluid can do it, especially on plastic...
CHAD, Greensboro
I suppose now that you pried the information out of me you are going to make me feel bad and buy one! Oh Well! If you do send us a picture. Rick
Bookitty
The gray plastic material does seem to be soft and I would be concerned that it would "melt" if painted. (I remember the days of model building and some plastics would melt if the wrong paint was used)
Guess I will look for an aftermarket or sport bumper eventually.
Does the truckin magazine have a web site or do you know of a web site which shows the bumper that you mentioned?
Has anyone installed bumper / grill inserts? If so, how do you like them and which brand did you go with.
Thanks!
bobs5: I had my gray parts painted shortly after getting my quad. The body shop had no problems doing it. They mentioned that the rough texture would not look exact;y like the smooth body panels. I like the look and it is holding up just fine so far.
ABS: Abs is fine for what it does. A skidding vehicle is going to stop faster because it is always being braked. If you are in a large open area with nothing around, ABS is worthless. ABS is designed to give steering control under panic braking and that is the only advantage. ABS is a problem if you tow over 6000 lbs. Since about 70% of the braking is done by the front tires and that is where the steering is, rear wheel ABS is worthless.
Tire pressure: Too many people do not pay attention to the recommended tire pressures or properly check their tires. The big deal happened when Firestone tried to get someone else to be responsible for their pathetic product. To shift the blame to Ford, they got on this tire pressure business. Ford does like anyone does and gave a range of tire pressure which was approved by Firestone. Ford's mistake was they overestimated the intelligence of the average driver and overly trusted the integrity of Firestone/Bridgestone. I have always liked Fords because of the good, reliable service they give. Not like GM products which I refer to as 'hanger queens'.
On the way back from Colorado, I saw what had to be five of the new generation, pre-production Ram pickups. They were being driven along I-70 towards Denver on Saturday, wearing full camoflauge body cladding. There was a MBP Dakota Quad just like mine in the middle of them, possibly a support vehicle. Later I will give full details of my trip here.
The important details: Highest price gas, 1.479. Lowest mpg, 16.5, highest 18.2, average 17.2. The high end matches the performance of my 91 F150 in the mountains, but the flat land runs are 2-3 mpg better.
Averaged 44 mph going and 55 mph on the return. If you discount the stops, 52 going, 63 return. On the interstates, the limit is 70-75, but when we hit Oakley it was big snow. The flakes were refered to as elephant turds. Humongous suckers. We barely got through Colby and they must have closed the gates behind us. The Q did great, but had a semi force us off the pavement once when passing. We hit Goodland and the wet stuff was behind us, but then we had 40 mph winds with partial whiteout conditions. Visibilty range from car length to 1/8 mile until we got to Limon. Took a rest there and the gates east were closed. West of Denver on the west slope, the weather was a little nasty, but nothing major. We just had to be careful of slippery curves. In western Kansas we saw (1) jacknifed semi and 5-6 vehicles in the ditch. Nothing major. If anything was off the road west of Goodland, we couldn't have seen it. The quad took everything in stride. We did have to clear the front grill at Limon and Denver. The snow had packed in the grill openings and then froze into a solid block.
Return trip - we hit some precip east of Rifle. A semi was in the with the drivers in the air and the box on the side, jacknifed. They were unloading the box as we passed, with two tows ready to right. Had a yahoo pass us west of Vail. 2-3 miles further he was trying to get out of a snowbank and facing east again. Several vehicles in the ditch and maybe on the east slope, a jeep was upside down. Passed on tandem rig with chains on one axle that was just spinning them and another rig that was trying to get through without chains and without getting caught. Went through the Eisenhower just before noon and all three lanes on the east slope were backed up 3-4 miles. Every 4-wheeler had a ski rack on and I think every trucker was pissed. As I mentioned before, we passed a convoy of pickups that had black vinyl covers over the body panels to hid the appearance. Since Dodge is the only maker bringing out a new pickup soon and there was a Dakota Quad in the midst, I have to assume that they were pre-production mules.
We convoyed with my BIL's 97 Explorer (4.0/4wd/Auto). The Quad got 5-10% better mileage and had a lot more zip in the mountains. Since we do not have the ARE Z top yet, we only carried two ice chests and the boot bag in the back end. My BIL carried the the ski bag and we put the rest of the gear in the back seat area. We ahd two large soft sided bags and fitted them in the floorboards. We then used some blankets and a sleeping bag to make a bed over the back seat area. We had a couple of small bags that we moved around as needed. Periodically, my wife or I would take a nap for a few hours on the bed. It is a little short for my 5'10", but we could get a decent rest anyway. My old F150 was a little better for this as it had about another 8 inches of width to lie down. For those who are interested, I also had 100 lbs of sand in the back and in the drawer I built between the wheel wells, I had all my emergency gear and tools.
I realize that this is the internet equivalent of vaction slides, but I thought someone might be interested in how someone else used their Quad and how it did.
For those of you with 4-wheel ABS the same is not true. Once the pedal pulses, all four wheels are being stopped as quickly as the ABS system will allow. Just stay on it and concentrate on steering.
But this gives me the opportunity to ask one more question before ordering. My dealer mentioned that he didn't think that a limited slip dif was worth the money. His reasoning was that all you have to do is pop it into 4WD if you start spinning alittle. Is this really a good thought process, or am I going to regret it when there is a little ice at the intersections and I have to throw my truck into 4WD? Also, does a LSD help out in 4WD too? (I am not real knowledgeable when it comes to transmission/drive trains)
I know there has been alot of discussion about this, but I would still like alittle feedback. Thanks.
With LSD you still dont have 4 wheels but you have 3 wheels working. For
$250 it is worth it!!
TD
For me, there were three factors:
1. Cost. Not a worry for me as my budget is 25k-26Kkand I can get a 4x4 for that.
2. Safety. I will not think twice to the "can I make it" questions...even though I may only really "use" 4wd 3-4 times a year.
3. Looks/pride. To me, it was either a 4x4 or a lowered R/T with cool wheels. My answer..See # 1 and 2.
My and only my opinion: 4x4 with LSD
But this gives me the opportunity to ask one more question before ordering. My dealer mentioned that he didn't think that a limited slip dif was worth the money. His reasoning was that all you have to do is pop it into 4WD if you start spinning alittle. Is this really a good thought process, or am I going to regret it when there is a little ice at the intersections and I have to throw my truck into 4WD? Also, does a LSD help out in 4WD too? (I am not real knowledgeable when it comes to transmission/drive trains)
I know there has been alot of discussion about this, but I would still like alittle feedback. Thanks.
Thanks
I hope this is right.
How long does it take for a truck to come in once it's ordered?
Limited Slip Differntial: A car dealer that tells you that 4WD eliminates the need for LSD is one of the following; A jackass that knows not, or has in inventory a 4WD that the order manager (another jackass) ordered in for stock, and it is growing older on the lot.
Farm Bureau discount ($500.00); The Farm Bureau discount is available to any and all members, who have been members for a minimum of 30 days prior to "delivery." It is not necessary to inform the dealer at the time of ordering so that he can "bury" your $500.00 into the deal during negotiations. When I joined after ordering my 2000 Quad cab, I called my Farm Bureau Benefits representative, and they sent me the discount coupon (after 3o days). I presented the coupon when the documents were being prepared on the day that I took delivery. The $500.00 came off (at my insistence) the price prior to administering the PA State sales and use tax (another $30.00 although some states may be different), as I presented the coupon to the young lady preparing the documents. That's exactly the time when the dealer became aware that I had the coupon. The FB fee for PA is $75.00. Great deal! To join the Farm Bureau, you do not have to participate in any other FB programs, neither do you have to own and/or work on a farm. Please do not complicate this very simple process by involving the dealer other than handing him the coupon. A few years ago, AARP magazine, Modern Maturity had a coupon for $1000.00 towards a Buick. My aunt was interested, and I took her shopping. The first thing that she tried to do, (as most senior citizens might) was to try to hand the coupon to the salesman and ask how it works. I told her that if she did that, I might have to break her arm off (my aunt is a real hoot)and beat her over the head with it. When we had negotiated the deal down to the very last penny, I handed him the coupon. His chin dropped almost to the floor and he said, "I wish you had told me about this before." I replied that I was certain that he did, but the coupon read to make your best deal before presenting it. My aunt still laughs about this today.
To contact the Farm Bureau, click on this link; http://www.fb.com. Then go to your state link. If your state link does not provide sufficient information, go to a state that has a larger more active membership, like PA or IL or some midwest area that has more of a farming industry. Need help? We are here for you!
Bookitty
Bookitty
Bookitty
and I hope she can come.
Bookitty
Thanks,
trglick
for 200$ under invoice. I felt better going through my local dealer and didnt
mind paying a few more $$. Besides, the salesman was very nice and even
deducted the tags& transfer cost!!
http://www.geocities.com/plainsranger/index.html
You inspect your vehicle. If it doesn't meet your expectations, you don't have to sign for it. It's that simple. (See Delivery Bill of Rights for details)." I would probably try to use the Carsdirect price at local dealers and then if I could not strike a deal, attempt to go through Carsdirect.
Bookitty
a. Mileage difference?
b. Safety benefits of AWD vs. part time?
c. LSD w/AWD... necessary?
d. Reliability issues?
Any and all responses would be appreciated.
a. Mileage difference? Traditionally, full time 4WD tends to lower mpg and increase tire wear by "scuffing."
b. Safety benefits of AWD vs. part time? In my honest opinion safety margins are infinitesimal except perhaps for people who are not familiar with 4WD systems and usage. It was really designed
for "soccer moms" and other people who think they need 4WD but don't want to think about it. If "shift-on-the-fly" were unavailable, it would hold increased merit. In addition, the only full time 4WD system that really performs is the Jeep "quadratrac."
c. LSD I/AWD... necessary? No matter what type of drive line you have, and regardless of 2WD or 4WD, LSD runs from very important to an absolute necessity.
d. Reliability issues? I cannot personally render an opinion regarding reliability. We have only owned 2 vehicles with full time 4WD and both of them were field converted to part time utilizing after market Warn hubs. Fuel and tire wear dictated that move.
Tom, please do not interpret "soccer moms" as derogatory, but I am trying to emphasize the large number of 4WD SUV (and even trucks) who haven't an inkling as to the workings of the system and the potential it affords. Then there are the overconfident who think that it protects them from all evil. One must learn to drive properly in inclement weather and under harsh conditions. Most times, it is much more about "stopping" than "going."
Bookitty
http://www.reflexxion.com/html/dodge2.html
From the ad it is also available in black painted finish too! Rick
Thanks,
Earl
their 2000 Quad is a "factory re-purchased" truck.
I'll bet it runs a lot better. That's because I paid $23,716.00 brand new, Loaded, but with 5 speed and 4.7. Golly, now I feel guilty. Or, maybe
I could call my truck; "factory re-purchased" and sell it for a profit.
Bookitty