I was all for a Volt until I found out it is 2" shorter than a Cobalt. For the 20K difference I can buy a heck of a lot of fuel. Besides it looks like GM is on its way out. As a GM retired I'm not looking forward to that as it will take my health care and before it is over some of my pension. There are millions of us retired people in this fix and at my union hall none of the retired will ever buy GM again if we lose out. I for one will never buy American in anything again, not even a foreign car built here. And this is from someone who buys American all I can, my tennis shoes, to clothes are all american but no more. No one else in this country cares so why should I?
Who would pay $40k for a small car that looks like a Civic.
I don't have a degree in marketing, but it makes much more sense to me that GM should aim for lower profit / higher volume so that more cars can be produced to keep the workers employed.
I don't have a degree in marketing, but it makes much more sense to me that GM should aim for lower profit / higher volume so that more cars can be produced to keep the workers employed.
GM isn't in business to keep the workers employed, though. Right now the only thing keeping GM in business is the hope of a multi-year federal bailout. Politically speaking, they have to be able to demonstrate the capability for innovation. The Volt shows that capability much more effectively than, say, the Malibu or Cobalt, no matter how excellent (or how profitable) those cars may be.
This one is for those who doubt (ahem, Gary) that GM or Toyota can put a safe, well-tested Li Ion battery on the road, read this:
link title As the company completes work on the battery for the first-generation Volt, it's also developing batteries for the second and third generation of the vehicle, which involves evaluating different battery materials and cells to find ones that store more energy, making it possible to use fewer of them.
The lab has two main sections: one for evaluating battery cells from various suppliers, and one for evaluating the performance of battery packs--cells packaged with electronics and systems for cooling and heating the cells to keep them at an optimal temperature range. The battery packs contain a type of lithium-ion cell that can be degraded by extreme temperatures.
Inside the lab, the packs are charged and discharged while being subjected to high and low temperatures as well as extremes of humidity. Engineers can also simulate different altitudes by placing the packs in barometric chambers. So the engineers can simulate conditions along a humid, hot coastline at sea level, or atop an arid and cold mountain. They can also mimic road conditions with a machine that shakes the battery packs. Elevated temperatures, which speed up the aging process of battery materials, are being used to confirm a ten-year lifetime for the batteries with about two years' worth of tests. In addition to being tested in the battery lab, the packs are being subjected to tests in actual vehicles both on the road and in a climate-controlled wind tunnel. So far, more than 100 battery packs have been built for testing.
I will say this: It used to be that lithium ion laptop and cell phone batteries would degrade significantly within about 18 months after they were manufactured. Newer models seem to have a longer lifespan. My father has a 30 month old notebook that still holds 90% of its rated charge. Apple introduced a new notebook last week and claimed a five-year lifespan on the battery.
While it's not surprising that the lights in the Volt group have basically been switched off while GM reinvents itself (could resist the pun :P ), I think it illustrates that the Volt, or any other EV with limited range and a high price tag for that matter, is NOT the answer for what ails the North American auto market.
The Volt seems to be an answer to a question that nobody is asking.
The more info I get the more I feel the Volt is not what I want. I want a car that not only gets great mpg around town but can also most importantly get it on a drive across the U.S. What I'm getting from the bits and pieces is that once the electric runs out and it switches to the gas engine that in order to make enough electric to run the car at freeway speeds it would have to run at max RPM's. If this turns out to be true than that engine isn't going to last very long. Is everyone else seeing this too?
The only thing that would seem to make sense is for the generator to make sufficient electricity to power the car at highway speeds and still allow some energy to be put back into the battery at I would guess 1/2 speed.
In order to run at highway speeds this article said the gas engine would have to run at max in order to make enough electricity to power the car and none to recharge the battery. Now if that means running at max on most generators they are governed and always run at a certain RPM no matter what where as a couple I know of idle low and ramp up depending on how much juice is required and then they don't go over what the governed one do which is around 3600rpm's which wouldn't be bad. Whether it was a poorly written explanation or if it is the way I took it to be than that car won't last long and there will be a lot of people very unhappy with it. I'm hoping it is governed at a certain rpm no where near max engine speed so it will last a few hundred thousand miles.
It sounds like you may have not read where GM has changed their philosophy while designing the Volt. It was to let the battery deplete and then crank the ICE for power to recharge the batteries. But, some time ago, they decided to let the battery run down to min voltage and then crank up the engine for motive power only!. This, I guess, will give the driver the incentive/requirement to minimize the ICE use and maximize the EV batt. only mode. I suppose that would maximize the EPA values, for advertisement and corporate mileage. But, I guess if you then have to go up a grade (think about taking an interstate out of LA, northbound!), it will likely be a 25 mph ride, sounding like a gas powered lawnmower, for an hour, or so! Also, it was originally thought to be a 500 total mile vehicle (per tank). Then it was to be a 400 mile vehicle. Now, I guess it probably won't be a 300 mile vehicle. I think the only in-motion battery regen. will be braking regen, and maybe for cost reduction, that might not happen either. -- GFR
I understood that it only takes around 50 hp to maintain highway speed; i'm sure it's a little higher depending on the grade and speed. The engine being planned for the Volt seems to be capable of generating significantly more than 50 hp, meaning (to me anyway) that it should be quite capable of generating sufficient hp to maintain the vehicle at highway speed and still be able to trickle excess energy back to the battery, even at low rpm's.
I understand that GM doesn't want to recharge the battery to a significant degree, in order to increase the life-cycle of the batteries. On a long downgrade I would expect that it's possible that the engine would even be able to shut down for a period of time.
At higher rpm's the currently planned motor should be capable to generating sufficient energy to handle all reasonable travel conditions. It wouldn't make sense for GM to not follow this plan if they expect the vehicle to have no compromises and be useful as a single vehicle for a family.
I found the following link to give a better description of how the engine/battery should work once the battery reaches its depletion point.
You may have missed the point. My comment about the changes in regen. philosophy makes your article reference obsolete, because they've decided they want a electric vehicle and only want the ICE to get the vehicle home, if necessary, so to speak. No ICE regen. is planned, as of a couple of months ago. This came from an article (might be Popular Science, I don't recall) from the magazine's engineering editor while visiting the GM research facility. It's not what the can do, but what they've decided is the best course for their objectives, whatever they may be. It has nothing to do with the typical battery operating range of 30 to 80% thing. In this case, unless they change their minds again, when the battery gets down to 30%, as an EV, the electrical propulsion is off-line until recharged from a station. Anything can still change, but your reference has been superceded, as it stands now. -- GFR
Everything I have read and seen on TV is the electric engine is the ONLY thing that propels the car. The gas engine ONLY runs the electric engine and there is no way it can propel the car itself.
dmathews3 says, "Everything I have read and seen on TV is the electric engine is the ONLY thing that propels the car. The gas engine ONLY runs the electric engine and there is no way it can propel the car itself. "
(Editor’s Note: This is applicable for North America)
The Chevrolet Volt is an Extended-Range Electric Vehicle. It uses Voltec - GM’s electric propulsion system - to drive the car at all times and speeds. The Voltec electric propulsion system is made up of a 16-kWh battery, an electric drive unit, and a four-cylinder engine generator of electricity. Voltec enables up to 40 miles of gas- and emissions-free electric driving with extended-range capability of more than 300 miles.
The Chevrolet Volt uses electricity as its primary source of energy to drive the car. There are two modes of operation – Electric and Extended-Range. In both modes, the Volt is propelled by an electric drive unit. The electric drive unit converts electrical energy into mechanical energy to drive the front wheels. It also delivers instant torque, the equivalent of 150 horsepower and a top speed of 100 mph. There is no compromise in vehicle performance in either mode of operation.
Electric Mode: In Electric mode, the Volt will not use gasoline or produce tailpipe emissions. During this primary mode, the Volt is powered by electrical energy stored in its T-shaped lithium-ion battery. The Volt can operate in this mode for up to 40 miles until the battery has reached a low energy level.
Extended-Range Mode: When the battery’s energy is depleted, the Volt seamlessly switches to Extended-Range mode. In this secondary mode, electricity needed to power the vehicle is created on-board by a flex-fuel powered engine-generator. This mode of operation extends the total range of the Volt for hundreds of additional miles, until the vehicle can be refueled or plugged in to recharge the battery.
The engine-generator has the capability to provide the level of electrical power that the Volt needs for the most frequent maneuvers. However, the battery will continue to generate some power and work together with the engine-generator to provide peak performance when it's required, such as driving up a steep incline or for high acceleration maneuvers. The engine-generator will then continue to provide electricity to power the vehicle and simultaneously return some energy to the battery to replenish and maintain a low energy level. The battery will not be recharged to a “full” state by the engine-generator.
Contrary to a conventional battery-electric vehicle, the extended-range mode eliminates “range anxiety,” giving the confidence and peace of mind that the driver will not be stranded by a depleted battery.
Regenerative Braking: During both modes of operation, energy is captured during braking, converted into electricity and stored in the battery. This process of capturing energy is called regenerative braking. Regenerative braking increases the overall efficiency of the vehicle.
Charging: The Chevrolet Volt can be recharged by plugging its specially designed power cord into a standard household 120V outlet or use 240v for charging. Charging begins automatically. The Volt’s charging technology enables the battery to be charged in less than three hours on a 240v or about eight hours from a 120v outlet. Charge times are reduced if the battery has not been fully depleted. At a cost of about 80 cents per day (10 cents per kWh) for a full charge that will deliver up to 40 miles of electric driving, GM estimates that the Volt will be less expensive to recharge than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee. Charging the Volt about once daily will consume less electric energy annually than the average home's refrigerator and freezer units.
It's semantics. Yes, it is electric propulsion in that electric motors propel the vehicle, but once the battery capacity drops and the ICE starts, the ICE provides all the motive power for the electric motors and it is not a battery powered EV at that point. Maybe a poor choice of words, but the reality is that the battery is done providing power until plugged in. The article above explained that mode, in the technical description. The results are as I described. GR
It's still ONLY the electric motors that move the vehicle. Put it this way, the electric motors don't know and don't care where the electricity is coming from, they either have power to run or they don't.
I have no idea what the efficiency of running the ICE to supply electricity for the propulsion system is. THAT would be an interesting number to see instead of talking about the range of a tank of gas which includes miles that are 100% battery driven.
Would burning 5 gallons of fuel to create electricity move the Volt as far as if those same 5 gallons were used by the ICE to directly propel the car? Essentially what you have is a portable gas-powered generator on board with the Volt. That doesn't seem like the most intuitively-efficient idea I've ever heard of.
Using the ICE to drive the wheels through a motor/generator is very efficient. This powertrain design has been around for a long time in diesel locomotives and large ore hauling trucks.
The efficiency is gained by running the engine at its most fuel efficient RPM and not having the speed excursions that you would get with a conventional automatic transmission.
Basically, the Volt becomes a Prius when the batteries are discharged. So it still benefits from regenerative braking and engine off at a stop.
All that said, you would never design a car to use only the motor /generator with no battery on board. It is efficient , but not as efficient as say a manual transmission equipped vehicle chugging down the interstate in high gear.
Remember, the primary mission of the Volt is to get you to work and back or to the shopping mall, not for Indianapolis to Denver runs.
I just checked my electric bill and my cost for a KW-Hr is 7.2 cents. So a "fill-up" for me would be about 58 pennies. (My driving is always less than 40 miles per day unless I am on vacation) If gas is at $3.50/ gal, the $1500 I save on gas every year starts to look very interesting.
110 is the ONLY way it will recharge the batteries. The gas engine just puts out enough power to power the electric motor and no extra to charge the batteries. I'm guessing this will change in the 2nd generation cars.
If we waved a magic wand and all cars were EV's, those electric rates are NOT going to stay the same and there's no way is it going to cost 58 cents to "fill up" a Volt. Since you say your normal driving is less than 30 miles a day, you honestly think a Volt would only cost you less than $18/month to run??
That's a patently ridiculous number. Electric vehicles will not be "free" to operate and the introduction of EV's will definitely increase electric rates as the increased load and demand caused by charging of EV's is something that is not on the grid now. And it really doesn't matter if you say, "Oh we can charge them during off peak hours". Those hours will no longer be "off peak" once we add a "car charging" peak will they?
Robert Heinlein said it in his 1966 novel, "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", although the phrase apparently originated in the 1930's...
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch :shades:
Every estimate I see says about 8 kwh to recharge the battery.
That's about 80 cents for most people.
For commuters like myself who drive about 22 miles a day round-trip, and maybe 100 miles on a weekend, the electric cost would be about $25 a month, and the gasoline costs might be $40 a month, for a total of about $65 monthly
That's not TOO much different than what I pay for gasoline per month for my Camry hybrid, from Dec-Jun this year was about $47 a month.
Would I trade for a much higher car payment just to save $18 a month? Not likely.
The economics don't look to be there for people already driving a mid-size fuel-efficient car.
And the comment about how electricity will go up because of EVs hitting the market? PSHAW !!!
All that charging ( or most of it ) will occur at night when the grid is flowing and unchallenged.
And how many EVs will sell per year? 60,000? 80,000? 100,000? Not the Volt, not at $40K.
If would take a LOT of years, a LOT of car sales, and a LOT of progress before the EVs made a dent in the grid to the point that the utility companies could claim higher demand and raise prices merely because of EVs.
I don't think we will ever see enough electric cars to change the off peak times to peak before we ever get that many cars we will have something else like hydrogen fuel cells.
I disagree! Lomotives & very large trucks, in the sense of small vehicles, aren't efficient. No batteries for energy storage exists, so where's the comparison? Locomotives need lots of weight. That's not energy efficiency. The Prius' efficiency is largely due to the battery helping the ICE during acelleration and climbing grades. Therefore it can have a smaller, more efficient, engine and one that doesn't require low rpm torque due to the battery assist. Going down the other side of a hill, or long grade, the Prius regenerates the battery for further use whereas the Volt wastes that excess energy, once the propulsion battery is low and off-line. Then think about the cold country, such as Fargo, Duluth, etc. What is going to heat the cabin, defrost the front and rear windows, keep the catalytic warm, and such? Where's the 40 mile EV only range potential now? In such a scenario, maybe 5 miles, or 0, if the ICE provides the heat? And if that is the case, it appears that the operating ICE wouldn't even be able to use the excess power to charge the battery! There's a lot of detail that hasn't yet been disclosed, but it seems a little disconcerning to me. GR
My recollection is that the Volt does have regenerative braking abilities, and that regen would work even if the battery were low. Also, I believe there is an electrically operated heating system. Of course, that will reduce the electric-only range, but would not require that the engine run in order to generate heat.
Also, I believe there is an electrically operated heating system. Of course, that will reduce the electric-only range, but would not require that the engine run in order to generate heat.
So are we assuming that the "40 mile battery-only" operational range doesn't take into account the power needed for heat and/or AC?
It would be kind of silly to report an "ideal operating conditions" range, wouldn't it? I wonder how terrain and traffic is going to affect the stated range.
Certainly operating the AC affects mileage on an ICE car. Heating your car in the winter is simply taking advantage of a by-product of internal combustion. I imagine that both heating and AC will have comparable effects on the battery-only range of the Volt before the ICE starts up to start "running the generator".
Hardly moot as the range of battery only operation is supposed to be the big draw of the Volt. "Drive 40 miles or less? Don't use ANY gas." Isn't that the line of thought or am I mistaken?
When I use my table saw the motor on it if cutting thick wood heats up quite a bit. I bet the electric motor no the Volt running all the time puts out quite a bit of heat. I wonder if they figured out a way to capture it for the heating system? Also don't the L-ion batteries also produce heat? Maybe that is 2nd generation thinking.
GM seems to be dodging the AC effecting range question.
Nick explains that the test cycles include “a standard set of accessory loads,” but that “air conditioning is not included.” He says the testing “also assumes a 60 F to 65 F degree
I would think it would be very easy to figure it in. Makes me think it might be a pretty good drain.
I dunno. They used the standard gov't mpg tests apparently, so 40 is 40. People report doing better and those in say Los Angeles commute traffic do worse.
I am not really sure if the comparison to a standard car works for AC affecting mpg. For the Insight I was reading on a blog that the AC really harms mileage...a lot more so than the standard car. AC uses a similar amount of power, but in a car built for ultra efficiency the relative loss could be much more. I don't use AC that much so it wouldn't be a huge deal in any case. I tend to think if it was a good number they would have released it already.
The car could be brought up (or down) to temperature on the grid before heading out, if it was adapted to do so. I doubt the first model will have this feature. Some enterprising person could come up with something to handle it as a add-on.
GM Says New Electric Car Gets 230 Miles Per Gallon General Motors announced today that its forthcoming electric vehicle, the Chevrolet Volt, will achieve city fuel economy of 230 miles per gallon, under testing that used draft federal fuel economy methodology standards for plug-in cars.
The Volt will become the first mass-produced vehicle to obtain a triple-digit MPG rating, the company said.
"The Volt is becoming very real, very fast," chief executive Fritz Henderson said. "The price of oil is going to go up."
The announcement of the mileage breakthrough comes after the government-rescued automaker received some strong criticism for failing to have more fuel-efficient cars.
I'm driving 33 miles each way through a lot of hills. If anyone at GM wants some real world testing done....I'll be glad to help. Company I'm working for will gladly give me a plug so I'm running a full charge each direction.
This is the type of claim that I find particularly annoying. It will not get 230 mpg, and I think that should be quite clear - if you unplug it, then drive 230 miles, even in ideal conditions, you will use more than one gallon of gasoline. Even then, the "fuel economy" will be skewed if it ignores the energy from the grid that's put into the car.
I suppose if they can claim such mileage, I should claim that my old truck gets 50 mpg because if I start at the top of a large hill and drive 5 miles to the bottom, I will use roughly 1/10 gallon of gas. Extrapolate out, and I can clearly show I got 50 miles per gallon.
I agree, it's a bogus claim. Can the Volt travel 230 miles and use one gallon of gas? Not with a battery-only range of 40 miles before the "generator" kicks in. And don't forget, the electricity you're going to run the Volt on isn't free. NOBODY seems to want to talk much about that. The few Volt enthusiasts I've run into think it's going to cost them less than $1 to "fill up" with a charge. Boy, are they in for a rude awakening when the electric bill comes.
COULD the Volt travel 230 miles and use one gallon of gas? Perhaps, but you'd have roughly 5 or 6 stops in the trip to recharge the battery. If I even want to only make a 60 mile trip, this mileage claim is going right out the window.
Informal survey: Would your every day driving requirements hypothetically allow you to run a Volt on basically battery only and get 230 MPG?
No way for me. I used to work exclusively out of my house. Round trip to the grocery store is 16 miles for me. Being that it was that far, I tend to combine trips and go to all the places I might need to go in one trip to save gas. That usually meant 50-60 miles in a day. The wife drives 38 miles one way to work. That's not even counting things like "having a life"
I've had my 2007 Versa for 30 months now. It has over 59,000 miles on it. That's about 65 miles per day on average. That Volt ICE would be running.
Your mileage is well above average and the folks most benefited by electric/hybrid drivetrains (city drivers) do not typically put that many miles on their car a day. I would be able to use the Volt completely on battery assuming the 40 mile range is accurate. My commute is around 33 miles door-to-door. I would also be able to recharge while at work to make the return trip. So even my well above average commute (16,000 miles JUST commuting) would be within the Volts capacity of running on battery power. So for me, assuming the $.80/recharge (we’re cheaper/kwh but I’ll stick with national avg.)...I would have $1.60 a day give or take. A typical car getting 30mpg (a 4cyl Accord does this on my commute) would cost me somewhere around $5.00 at todays gas prices. Now how do you put that in a true comparable format to mpg? I think it’s clear that you can’t equate the mpg rating on an electric (or hybrid in many cases) the same as you do a gas car: i.e. I can drive 230 miles on one gallon. They did state that was the city number which will be far and away higher than highway driving.
Someone just driving around town will likely do significantly better than my situation above. A cold start in city driving with a gas engine burns gobs of fuel which the electric/hybrids mitigate drastically. I don’t think these are cars for everyone, but I think they could have a lot of benefit to users that understand basics of the benefits and pitfalls. Back when I was commuting 30k miles a year, I ran a VW Jetta TDI which I’ll be the first to say is not the perfect car for everyone. However, I was able to make it the perfect car for me and benefit greatly from it. I’m not sure where I am on the Volt but I think it has a lot more potential then anything I’ve seen yet. The prior electrics have either been too compromised or not near enough range to give me the comfort level I would need to buy one. I still don’t think I could own one as my only vehicle but I’m sure there are many that could.
The few Volt enthusiasts I've run into think it's going to cost them less than $1 to "fill up" with a charge.
GM estimates 8 kilowatt-hours of electricity usage for a full recharge. 8 kwh x 6 cents / kwh = $0.48.
Would your every day driving requirements hypothetically allow you to run a Volt on basically battery only and get 230 MPG?
I'd be able to run on battery only quite often. My basic commute is about 16 miles roundtrip (although there are days when I have to commute twice or, infrequently, even three times in a given day). It still wouldn't make the Volt's purchase price cost-effective.
Just make sure after all your normal deductions your tax bill is still >$7,500 otherwise you'll be SOL. I know a few folks that ended up getting screwed out of there hybrid tax credits last year. This means most will need at least $50,000 in taxable income to take the full benefit and that's assuming no other tax credits...like the child credit, etc.
Also, resale value can play into the upfront cost unless you plan to own the thing forever (not me). The Prius, Jetta TDI, and other fuel efficient vehicles tend to have very strong resale. Historically anyway. I'm guessing as more and more fuel efficient vehicles hit the streets...the older stuff might take it on the chin.
Lots of us can well afford a real automobile and need not drive a Kia or Toyota and are willing to spend a little extra if it means helping an American Company that pays taxes to the U.S. and through the years have been a friendly neighbor and helped many in times of need.
"Informal survey: Would your every day driving requirements hypothetically allow you to run a Volt on basically battery only and get 230 MPG?"
19.2 mile commute each way. I'd get WAY more than 230mpg. Studies show that 80% of commuters would as well.
"I've had my 2007 Versa for 30 months now. It has over 59,000 miles on it. That's about 65 miles per day on average. That Volt ICE would be running."
A Versa (EPA rating 28mpg) will have used 2107 gallons of gas. A Volt running 65 miles per day will have used zero gas for all but 22,700 of those miles. It reportedly gets 50 mpg with the engine running, so you will use 454 gallons of gas in 59,000 miles.
At $4 gallon the Volt's gas bill is $1816. Electric bill is $360 (@ $0.40 a day, the reported daily bill for a charge). The Versa's gas bill is $8408. The difference = $6232 in just 30 months. Not a bad payback.
Obviously the Volt needs expensive gas to make sense, but so do most fuel sippers.
"They've jumped the shark with this mileage claim."
It's the EPA's rules, not GM's. It is what it is. I don't use it myself... it's 40 miles electric, 50 mpg thereafter.
Comments
I don't have a degree in marketing, but it makes much more sense to me that GM should aim for lower profit / higher volume so that more cars can be produced to keep the workers employed.
GM isn't in business to keep the workers employed, though. Right now the only thing keeping GM in business is the hope of a multi-year federal bailout. Politically speaking, they have to be able to demonstrate the capability for innovation. The Volt shows that capability much more effectively than, say, the Malibu or Cobalt, no matter how excellent (or how profitable) those cars may be.
link title
As the company completes work on the battery for the first-generation Volt, it's also developing batteries for the second and third generation of the vehicle, which involves evaluating different battery materials and cells to find ones that store more energy, making it possible to use fewer of them.
The lab has two main sections: one for evaluating battery cells from various suppliers, and one for evaluating the performance of battery packs--cells packaged with electronics and systems for cooling and heating the cells to keep them at an optimal temperature range. The battery packs contain a type of lithium-ion cell that can be degraded by extreme temperatures.
Inside the lab, the packs are charged and discharged while being subjected to high and low temperatures as well as extremes of humidity. Engineers can also simulate different altitudes by placing the packs in barometric chambers. So the engineers can simulate conditions along a humid, hot coastline at sea level, or atop an arid and cold mountain. They can also mimic road conditions with a machine that shakes the battery packs. Elevated temperatures, which speed up the aging process of battery materials, are being used to confirm a ten-year lifetime for the batteries with about two years' worth of tests. In addition to being tested in the battery lab, the packs are being subjected to tests in actual vehicles both on the road and in a climate-controlled wind tunnel. So far, more than 100 battery packs have been built for testing.
The Volt seems to be an answer to a question that nobody is asking.
Here's another location to gain some insight on what's happening.
I understand that GM doesn't want to recharge the battery to a significant degree, in order to increase the life-cycle of the batteries. On a long downgrade I would expect that it's possible that the engine would even be able to shut down for a period of time.
At higher rpm's the currently planned motor should be capable to generating sufficient energy to handle all reasonable travel conditions. It wouldn't make sense for GM to not follow this plan if they expect the vehicle to have no compromises and be useful as a single vehicle for a family.
I found the following link to give a better description of how the engine/battery should work once the battery reaches its depletion point.
http://gm-volt.com/2008/08/25/what-happens-in-the-chevy-volt-past-the-customer-d- epletion-point/
That is absolutely correct.
(Editor’s Note: This is applicable for North America)
The Chevrolet Volt is an Extended-Range Electric Vehicle. It uses Voltec - GM’s electric propulsion system - to drive the car at all times and speeds. The Voltec electric propulsion system is made up of a 16-kWh battery, an electric drive unit, and a four-cylinder engine generator of electricity. Voltec enables up to 40 miles of gas- and emissions-free electric driving with extended-range capability of more than 300 miles.
The Chevrolet Volt uses electricity as its primary source of energy to drive the car. There are two modes of operation – Electric and Extended-Range. In both modes, the Volt is propelled by an electric drive unit. The electric drive unit converts electrical energy into mechanical energy to drive the front wheels. It also delivers instant torque, the equivalent of 150 horsepower and a top speed of 100 mph. There is no compromise in vehicle performance in either mode of operation.
Electric Mode:
In Electric mode, the Volt will not use gasoline or produce tailpipe emissions. During this primary mode, the Volt is powered by electrical energy stored in its T-shaped lithium-ion battery. The Volt can operate in this mode for up to 40 miles until the battery has reached a low energy level.
Extended-Range Mode:
When the battery’s energy is depleted, the Volt seamlessly switches to Extended-Range mode. In this secondary mode, electricity needed to power the vehicle is created on-board by a flex-fuel powered engine-generator. This mode of operation extends the total range of the Volt for hundreds of additional miles, until the vehicle can be refueled or plugged in to recharge the battery.
The engine-generator has the capability to provide the level of electrical power that the Volt needs for the most frequent maneuvers. However, the battery will continue to generate some power and work together with the engine-generator to provide peak performance when it's required, such as driving up a steep incline or for high acceleration maneuvers. The engine-generator will then continue to provide electricity to power the vehicle and simultaneously return some energy to the battery to replenish and maintain a low energy level. The battery will not be recharged to a “full” state by the engine-generator.
Contrary to a conventional battery-electric vehicle, the extended-range mode eliminates “range anxiety,” giving the confidence and peace of mind that the driver will not be stranded by a depleted battery.
Regenerative Braking:
During both modes of operation, energy is captured during braking, converted into electricity and stored in the battery. This process of capturing energy is called regenerative braking. Regenerative braking increases the overall efficiency of the vehicle.
Charging:
The Chevrolet Volt can be recharged by plugging its specially designed power cord into a standard household 120V outlet or use 240v for charging. Charging begins automatically. The Volt’s charging technology enables the battery to be charged in less than three hours on a 240v or about eight hours from a 120v outlet. Charge times are reduced if the battery has not been fully depleted. At a cost of about 80 cents per day (10 cents per kWh) for a full charge that will deliver up to 40 miles of electric driving, GM estimates that the Volt will be less expensive to recharge than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee. Charging the Volt about once daily will consume less electric energy annually than the average home's refrigerator and freezer units.
I have no idea what the efficiency of running the ICE to supply electricity for the propulsion system is. THAT would be an interesting number to see instead of talking about the range of a tank of gas which includes miles that are 100% battery driven.
Would burning 5 gallons of fuel to create electricity move the Volt as far as if those same 5 gallons were used by the ICE to directly propel the car? Essentially what you have is a portable gas-powered generator on board with the Volt. That doesn't seem like the most intuitively-efficient idea I've ever heard of.
The efficiency is gained by running the engine at its most fuel efficient RPM and not having the speed excursions that you would get with a conventional automatic transmission.
Basically, the Volt becomes a Prius when the batteries are discharged. So it still benefits from regenerative braking and engine off at a stop.
All that said, you would never design a car to use only the motor /generator with no battery on board. It is efficient , but not as efficient as say a manual transmission equipped vehicle chugging down the interstate in high gear.
Remember, the primary mission of the Volt is to get you to work and back or to the shopping mall, not for Indianapolis to Denver runs.
I just checked my electric bill and my cost for a KW-Hr is 7.2 cents. So a "fill-up" for me would be about 58 pennies. (My driving is always less than 40 miles per day unless I am on vacation) If gas is at $3.50/ gal, the $1500 I save on gas every year starts to look very interesting.
That's a patently ridiculous number. Electric vehicles will not be "free" to operate and the introduction of EV's will definitely increase electric rates as the increased load and demand caused by charging of EV's is something that is not on the grid now. And it really doesn't matter if you say, "Oh we can charge them during off peak hours". Those hours will no longer be "off peak" once we add a "car charging" peak will they?
Robert Heinlein said it in his 1966 novel, "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress", although the phrase apparently originated in the 1930's...
There ain't no such thing as a free lunch :shades:
That's about 80 cents for most people.
For commuters like myself who drive about 22 miles a day round-trip, and maybe 100 miles on a weekend, the electric cost would be about $25 a month, and the gasoline costs might be $40 a month, for a total of about $65 monthly
That's not TOO much different than what I pay for gasoline per month for my Camry hybrid, from Dec-Jun this year was about $47 a month.
Would I trade for a much higher car payment just to save $18 a month? Not likely.
The economics don't look to be there for people already driving a mid-size fuel-efficient car.
And the comment about how electricity will go up because of EVs hitting the market? PSHAW !!!
All that charging ( or most of it ) will occur at night when the grid is flowing and unchallenged.
And how many EVs will sell per year? 60,000? 80,000? 100,000? Not the Volt, not at $40K.
If would take a LOT of years, a LOT of car sales, and a LOT of progress before the EVs made a dent in the grid to the point that the utility companies could claim higher demand and raise prices merely because of EVs.
So are we assuming that the "40 mile battery-only" operational range doesn't take into account the power needed for heat and/or AC?
It would be kind of silly to report an "ideal operating conditions" range, wouldn't it? I wonder how terrain and traffic is going to affect the stated range.
Anyway it is a moot point as you do have the ICE backup to generate any electricity after the battery is depleted.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Hardly moot as the range of battery only operation is supposed to be the big draw of the Volt. "Drive 40 miles or less? Don't use ANY gas." Isn't that the line of thought or am I mistaken?
Nick explains that the test cycles include “a standard set of accessory loads,” but that “air conditioning is not included.” He says the testing “also assumes a 60 F to 65 F degree
I would think it would be very easy to figure it in. Makes me think it might be a pretty good drain.
http://gm-volt.com/2009/04/24/the-chevy-volts-electric-range-is-40-miles-in-both- -highway-and-city-driving/
It's one thing to try and report numbers based on "average" conditions. It's a little different when you give numbers "under ideal conditions"
I am not really sure if the comparison to a standard car works for AC affecting mpg. For the Insight I was reading on a blog that the AC really harms mileage...a lot more so than the standard car. AC uses a similar amount of power, but in a car built for ultra efficiency the relative loss could be much more. I don't use AC that much so it wouldn't be a huge deal in any case. I tend to think if it was a good number they would have released it already.
The car could be brought up (or down) to temperature on the grid before heading out, if it was adapted to do so. I doubt the first model will have this feature. Some enterprising person could come up with something to handle it as a add-on.
GM Says New Electric Car Gets 230 Miles Per Gallon
General Motors announced today that its forthcoming electric vehicle, the Chevrolet Volt, will achieve city fuel economy of 230 miles per gallon, under testing that used draft federal fuel economy methodology standards for plug-in cars.
The Volt will become the first mass-produced vehicle to obtain a triple-digit MPG rating, the company said.
"The Volt is becoming very real, very fast," chief executive Fritz Henderson said. "The price of oil is going to go up."
The announcement of the mileage breakthrough comes after the government-rescued automaker received some strong criticism for failing to have more fuel-efficient cars.
I suppose if they can claim such mileage, I should claim that my old truck gets 50 mpg because if I start at the top of a large hill and drive 5 miles to the bottom, I will use roughly 1/10 gallon of gas. Extrapolate out, and I can clearly show I got 50 miles per gallon.
COULD the Volt travel 230 miles and use one gallon of gas? Perhaps, but you'd have roughly 5 or 6 stops in the trip to recharge the battery. If I even want to only make a 60 mile trip, this mileage claim is going right out the window.
Informal survey: Would your every day driving requirements hypothetically allow you to run a Volt on basically battery only and get 230 MPG?
No way for me. I used to work exclusively out of my house. Round trip to the grocery store is 16 miles for me. Being that it was that far, I tend to combine trips and go to all the places I might need to go in one trip to save gas. That usually meant 50-60 miles in a day. The wife drives 38 miles one way to work. That's not even counting things like "having a life"
I've had my 2007 Versa for 30 months now. It has over 59,000 miles on it. That's about 65 miles per day on average. That Volt ICE would be running.
They've jumped the shark with this mileage claim.
Someone just driving around town will likely do significantly better than my situation above. A cold start in city driving with a gas engine burns gobs of fuel which the electric/hybrids mitigate drastically. I don’t think these are cars for everyone, but I think they could have a lot of benefit to users that understand basics of the benefits and pitfalls. Back when I was commuting 30k miles a year, I ran a VW Jetta TDI which I’ll be the first to say is not the perfect car for everyone. However, I was able to make it the perfect car for me and benefit greatly from it. I’m not sure where I am on the Volt but I think it has a lot more potential then anything I’ve seen yet. The prior electrics have either been too compromised or not near enough range to give me the comfort level I would need to buy one. I still don’t think I could own one as my only vehicle but I’m sure there are many that could.
What's the mileage on THAT? 1,000,000 miles per gallon?
GM estimates 8 kilowatt-hours of electricity usage for a full recharge. 8 kwh x 6 cents / kwh = $0.48.
Would your every day driving requirements hypothetically allow you to run a Volt on basically battery only and get 230 MPG?
I'd be able to run on battery only quite often. My basic commute is about 16 miles roundtrip (although there are days when I have to commute twice or, infrequently, even three times in a given day). It still wouldn't make the Volt's purchase price cost-effective.
So if purchase price is $42K, you will only pay $34,500. Will make a big difference in payments for people watching their budgets.
Just make sure after all your normal deductions your tax bill is still >$7,500 otherwise you'll be SOL. I know a few folks that ended up getting screwed out of there hybrid tax credits last year. This means most will need at least $50,000 in taxable income to take the full benefit and that's assuming no other tax credits...like the child credit, etc.
Also, resale value can play into the upfront cost unless you plan to own the thing forever (not me). The Prius, Jetta TDI, and other fuel efficient vehicles tend to have very strong resale. Historically anyway. I'm guessing as more and more fuel efficient vehicles hit the streets...the older stuff might take it on the chin.
19.2 mile commute each way. I'd get WAY more than 230mpg.
Studies show that 80% of commuters would as well.
"I've had my 2007 Versa for 30 months now. It has over 59,000 miles on it. That's about 65 miles per day on average. That Volt ICE would be running."
A Versa (EPA rating 28mpg) will have used 2107 gallons of gas. A Volt running 65 miles per day will have used zero gas for all but 22,700 of those miles. It reportedly gets 50 mpg with the engine running, so you will use 454 gallons of gas in 59,000 miles.
At $4 gallon the Volt's gas bill is $1816. Electric bill is $360 (@ $0.40 a day, the reported daily bill for a charge).
The Versa's gas bill is $8408.
The difference = $6232 in just 30 months. Not a bad payback.
Obviously the Volt needs expensive gas to make sense, but so do most fuel sippers.
"They've jumped the shark with this mileage claim."
It's the EPA's rules, not GM's. It is what it is.
I don't use it myself... it's 40 miles electric, 50 mpg thereafter.