Will the Chevy Volt Succeed?

stovebolter

GM estimates 8 kilowatt-hours of electricity usage for a full recharge. 8 kwh x 6 cents / kwh = $0.48.

Electricity is far cheaper where you are. I pay about 21 cents per kWh.

I also have an above normal commute (about 130 miles/day currently, although that is only temporary). The Volt clearly would not work for me compared to the Prius, Insight, TDI Jetta, etc., with or without the Volt's tax credit.

That said, I'm not trying to badmouth the Volt - I think it's a good idea for a lot of people. But that doesn't justify the outlandish 230 mpg claim - you have to account for all the energy inputs, not just one type, otherwise you're comparing apples and iguanas.

tlong

Lots of us can well afford a real automobile and need not drive a Kia or Toyota and are willing to spend a little extra if it means helping an American Company that pays taxes to the U.S. and through the years have been a friendly neighbor and helped many in times of need.

The only car companies paying profits to the US are those that are PROFITABLE, and that certainly has not been GM for a long time. Try Honda and Toyota. Worse, GM has sucked at least $100 out of your pocket and mine, our kids, etc. as well in the form of loans which you may never see again.

tlong

GM's $.08/kwh is laughable. Here in California my marginal rate is about .35/kwh, which is what I would pay for charging my Volt. That's after the exorbitant up front capital acquisition cost.

I wonder how the Volt will perform going up mountain passes once the 40 miles are up? Probably not very well. What do you want for $40K? With some drivers it may make some sense.

larsb

It's only outlandish if it's impossible to do.

It's not, with the Volt.

larsb

The Volt is not like a hybrid car, which when the battery is dead it reverts to a small, weak gasoline engine.

It will ALWAYS have 100% of the torque available at ALL TIMES. At 150 HP rating, that electric motor will run that car just fine under any circumstances.

It will run mountain passes like a champ.

tlong

It will ALWAYS have 100% of the torque available at ALL TIMES. At 150 HP rating, that electric motor will run that car just fine under any circumstances.

Disagree - if the battery is already discharged and you are climbing a hill, the MAXIMUM power you can obtain is the instantaneous power output of the ICE. And that assumes there is no loss of efficiency in the conversion to electricity, which is not the case.

larsb

THE I.C.E. in the VOLT NEVER POWERS THE VOLT. It is merely a generator to provide power to the batteries.

Someone needs to do some homework.....:)

From a GM press release:

(Editor’s Note: This is applicable for North America)

The Chevrolet Volt is an Extended-Range Electric Vehicle. It uses Voltec - GM’s electric propulsion system - to drive the car at all times and speeds. The Voltec electric propulsion system is made up of a 16-kWh battery, an electric drive unit, and a four-cylinder engine generator of electricity. Voltec enables up to 40 miles of gas- and emissions-free electric driving with extended-range capability of more than 300 miles.

The Chevrolet Volt uses electricity as its primary source of energy to drive the car. There are two modes of operation – Electric and Extended-Range. In both modes, the Volt is propelled by an electric drive unit. The electric drive unit converts electrical energy into mechanical energy to drive the front wheels. It also delivers instant torque, the equivalent of 150 horsepower and a top speed of 100 mph. There is no compromise in vehicle performance in either mode of operation.

Electric Mode:
In Electric mode, the Volt will not use gasoline or produce tailpipe emissions. During this primary mode, the Volt is powered by electrical energy stored in its T-shaped lithium-ion battery. The Volt can operate in this mode for up to 40 miles until the battery has reached a low energy level.

Extended-Range Mode:
When the battery’s energy is depleted, the Volt seamlessly switches to Extended-Range mode. In this secondary mode, electricity needed to power the vehicle is created on-board by a flex-fuel powered engine-generator. This mode of operation extends the total range of the Volt for hundreds of additional miles, until the vehicle can be refueled or plugged in to recharge the battery.

The engine-generator has the capability to provide the level of electrical power that the Volt needs for the most frequent maneuvers. However, the battery will continue to generate some power and work together with the engine-generator to provide peak performance when it's required, such as driving up a steep incline or for high acceleration maneuvers. The engine-generator will then continue to provide electricity to power the vehicle and simultaneously return some energy to the battery to replenish and maintain a low energy level. The battery will not be recharged to a “full” state by the engine-generator.

Contrary to a conventional battery-electric vehicle, the extended-range mode eliminates “range anxiety,” giving the confidence and peace of mind that the driver will not be stranded by a depleted battery.

Regenerative Braking:
During both modes of operation, energy is captured during braking, converted into electricity and stored in the battery. This process of capturing energy is called regenerative braking. Regenerative braking increases the overall efficiency of the vehicle.

Charging:
The Chevrolet Volt can be recharged by plugging its specially designed power cord into a standard household 120V outlet or use 240v for charging. Charging begins automatically. The Volt’s charging technology enables the battery to be charged in less than three hours on a 240v or about eight hours from a 120v outlet. Charge times are reduced if the battery has not been fully depleted. At a cost of about 80 cents per day (10 cents per kWh) for a full charge that will deliver up to 40 miles of electric driving, GM estimates that the Volt will be less expensive to recharge than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee. Charging the Volt about once daily will consume less electric energy annually than the average home's refrigerator and freezer units.

eaton53

"Disagree - if the battery is already discharged and you are climbing a hill, the MAXIMUM power you can obtain is the instantaneous power output of the ICE. And that assumes there is no loss of efficiency in the conversion to electricity, which is not the case."

The battery is not fully discharged, there is still a certain amount left as a buffer for hills. I wouldn't expect a Volt to be a hot rod when the engine's running but it should be adequate.

Supposedly it's a lot faster than today's hybrids under battery power. Not surprising... electric motors are torque monsters.

BTW... the electricity prices being quoted are off peak, middle of the night. I think Volt chargers have timers on them so you can charge when rates are cheapest.

wlbrown9

My understanding is the Volt would get 45-50 MPG running off ICE after the battery is delpeted. I think the 40 mile electric claim might work out as well. Take a look at a similar PHEV test drive. They went over 50 miles electric ONLY and never went to ICE generation.

http://www.rasertech.com/media/videos/test-drive

This Raser Hummer prototype is estimated at approximately 33-35 MPG on ICE after battery depletion.

larsb

Volt is NOT a PHEV. It's an Extended Range EV. No hybridity to it. Only is propelled by one source - the electric motor. Never by anything else.

wlbrown9

Okay. The Raser prototype is the same setup as the Volt. Some documents they refer to it as a PHEV others E-REV. It is like the Volt. Plug in charge, ICE generation, electric drive only. ICE only runs the generator. The test drive video shows them going over 50 without having the ICE come on. That was my point. It can be done... Real distance of course would depend on conditions.

Bill

tlong

THE I.C.E. in the VOLT NEVER POWERS THE VOLT. It is merely a generator to provide power to the batteries.

Someone needs to do some homework.....

I'm fully aware of that. Tell me how a discharged battery, being replenished by an ICE, is going to generate MORE instantaneous power than the ICE can put out? If you are climbing that pass with a discharged battery, the ICE, through the generation of electricity, is the ONLY source of power. You cannot get more out than the ICE can produce if there is no reserve in the battery.

tlong

The battery is not fully discharged, there is still a certain amount left as a buffer for hills. I wouldn't expect a Volt to be a hot rod when the engine's running but it should be adequate.

OK, so if the Volt battery is normally called discharged at say, 30% charge, then if you are going up a pass you still have some reserve power. But if it's a long pass (over the Rockies in CO, for example), you are climbing to 10K feet over tens of miles. So even that 30% charge is going to be used up and at some point you are down to max power the ICE can produce. It may not be a common occurrence, but there will likely be times when the vehicle is a dog in those types of situations. GM has not let anybody drive the mules on engine mode so those characteristics are unknown to the public at the current time.

larsb

Good points all, but GM has not indicated at all that the Volt will have ANY compromises in regards to power, hill climbing, etc.

We'll just have to wait for some independent road tests of the production version.

stephen987

GM has never admitted that there were any problems with any of their cars, unless forced to do so by NHTSA.

tlong

Good points all, but GM has not indicated at all that the Volt will have ANY compromises in regards to power, hill climbing, etc.

Yep, they are really going to announce any negatives to help market the vehicle's capabilities. They are too busy touting their 230 mpg to talk about any compromises.

cannon3

I don't think GM is going to hit the mark on the Volt. Price is going to kill this car. How many people are going to pay $40,000 dollars for this car? How many people can afford this car? Nissan announced its electric car can go over 300 miles per gallon and will cost thousands less than GM's Volt. How is GM going to counter that one? Ford is going to build an electric Focus, Toyota has its electric coming too. Price is going to be key for success. Mass production should bring prices down, lets hope...

gfr1

It'd be interesting to know the date of that press release, for a major publication (Popular Science, I believe) visited the GM Volt research & developement in an article about two month ago. What was, pretty much as you stated, is not now, as published in the article. It is an indication of why they never demonstrate the vehicle with the engine/generator functional, as it likely won't be what you hoped for. -- GR

sebring95

The Volt and Nissan Leaf are two very different vehicles. The Nissan has a range of 100 miles between charges. Period. The Volt has approx. 40 miles but then has the ICE to propel itself over 300 miles according to GM. I'm not clear if that's just the limits to the gas tank and you can refill and go further....?? But either way, the Volt has tremendously more appeal to someone that at times need to go further than 100 miles! My normal commute is 30 miles each way, then sometimes I have to go to another office 40 miles further and then back home. 140 miles would mean the Leaf is out of the questions. The Volt would just turn into a less efficient mode of transportation after the initial recharge is burned...but at least I could get home without stopping to bum some electric along the way. So IMHO the Volt could actually be someones ONLY vehicle where the Leaf (or any electric in the past) is destined to be a 2nd/3rd car that can ONLY be used for commuting/limited use.

And as mentioned, there will be a substantial tax credit so the Volt isn't $40k. Granted the Leaf will have a big tax credit as well, however again the Volt will be useful to a much larger audience than the Leaf.

gagrice

BTW... the electricity prices being quoted are off peak, middle of the night. I think Volt chargers have timers on them so you can charge when rates are cheapest.

I am not sure where you live. We do not get any off peak cheap rate. Only higher with the more you use. No incentive to add an EV when I am already hitting the top rate of about $.35 per KWH. Making the Volt cost about $.14 per mile on battery only. My electric utility is in the process of upgrading to Smart Meters. This question was asked:

Is SDG&E going to charge different rates for electricity based on time-of-day energy use?

SDG&E customers now pay a flat rate for their energy. There are no plans to charge customers for time-of-day billing.

My guess is with San Diego having the highest concentration of residential solar, the load could be higher at night for the utility. As more people add solar it will become more of an issue for the utilities to balance the day and night loads. They will also raise the rates to compensate for the loss of revenue. The EV option used to look good to me. It is not much value at the current electric rates. With Cap n Trade those rates will go even higher.

larsb

The Volt will be a better car than the Leaf.

The leaf is a "regular EV" with all the inherent problems - i.e., cannot be taken on long trips.

The Volt can drive me 900 miles in one day.

There is a vast difference in usability.

larsb

.That post won't be here long !!!!

larsb

This today:

Getting a charge from the Chevy Volt

What happens if you need access to the car's full power to get up a mountain on a long ride? For those demanding situations--in electrical terms, when the car needs more than 50 kilowatts of juice--the Volt will draw on some of the remaining stored energy in its battery pack, explained Andrew Farah, the chief vehicle engineer.

When the car dips into that "buffer," the gasoline engine acts to sustain the battery level so that it doesn't go too low, which would strain the batteries, he said. "We're operating between 30 percent and 80 percent (charge). It's important for the battery life," he said. All along, the battery can be charged with regenerative braking and during deceleration.

eaton53

"I am not sure where you live. We do not get any off peak cheap rate."

Holy cow, are you getting screwed!!
Where I live you can get it during the summer, you have to pay a $16 service charge.

$0.0438 - Summer price
$0.1874 - Winter price

So overall I'd pay about $0.11, Juice is a lot cheaper here in Iowa.
Were I in Cali with all that sunshine and those high rates I'd strongly consider solar panels...

"Getting a charge from the Chevy Volt"

That Volt experience sure isn't like other fuel sippers.
Sounds like it's gonna be spunky...

"The Volt will be a better car than the Leaf."

IMO, having a Leaf is like having a sports car. You don't take it on trips and need an extra car sitting around.
All you need to do is forget to plug the Leaf in or have a power outage and you're in your other car.

gagrice

So overall I'd pay about $0.11, Juice is a lot cheaper here in Iowa.
Were I in Cali with all that sunshine and those high rates I'd strongly consider solar panels...

CA has regulations that run our price up higher. They have mandated alternative energy by 2012 and then block the solar and wind projects. Making a catch 22 for the power companies. Then the environmental groups block the power lines that would carry the power from the desert solar farms and wind farms. Plus they will not allow the utilities to buy coal generated power. So you have cheap coal with have over regulated power. If I had your 11 cent power my last bill would be less than half. Plus our largest demand is in the summer. They are getting people to put a device on their AC so they can turn it off if the load gets too high. I expect big brother to mandate that in the near future.

Which brings us back to the Volt. How many Volt buyers in CA will be upset when the electric bill makes their gas bill seem small?

PS
Solar is still a feel good option in CA, not yet cost effective. Even though San Diego is the number one in residential solar installations. Forget wind power, your neighbors would shoot you. Even some of the solar installations in my area are eyesores.

larsb

Gary says, "Which brings us back to the Volt. How many Volt buyers in CA will be upset when the electric bill makes their gas bill seem small? "

That cannot happen. Even if you are paying an outrageous 20 cents per kwh, that's about $1.60 in electricity per day for a 40 mile Volt commute.

So unless you are driving a gas car which gets 40 mpg and gas is less than $1.60 a gallon, the Volt will never cost more to fuel than a gas-only car.

As far as solar, a company named Solar City can lease you a 4.1 kw solar system for Zero down and $58 a month. That's affordable for just about everyone in America who owns a house.

gagrice

That cannot happen. Even if you are paying an outrageous 20 cents per kwh, that's about $1.60 in electricity per day for a 40 mile Volt commute.

You are not paying attention. If I owned a Volt today it would be costing me 34 cents per KWH to charge. If it only allows an 8 KWH charge on the 16 KWH battery that is still as much or more than a Jetta TDI or Prius will cost to drive. You can also bet they will require road tax when they hit the ground. Making them an expensive option to drive, at least in places like CA. And we are not the highest in the nation. It would be a total non starter in Hawaii where current charges for the low end is 28 cents per KWH.

How many people work at night and would be able to use solar to charge during the day?

I entered my home on Solar City website. They estimated my savings at minus $108 per year. Looks like I would have a total loss over 15 years of $457. Solar is not ready for prime time yet. I have a huge South facing roof also. So if it will not save me money. I am not sure who it would benefit. Plus it will not charge my EV at night.

See the rates we pay in San Diego:

http://www.sdge.com/customer/rates/baselineTierExamples.shtml

They will be going up when SDG&E cannot meet the 2012 alternative energy mandate.

larsb

Gary - VERY few people in this country are paying 34 cents per kwh.

Like I said - 10 cents is the US average. 6 cents is the average off-peak charge.

MOST Americans will be able to drive a Volt for less than any other car on the road.

stephen987

Yes, but the people most interested in driving a Volt are the ones living on either the east or west coast--where traffic is most dense, the politics tend to favor EVs and hybrids, and the electric rates are highest.

Those of us in the heartland tend to prefer plain ol' gas or diesel powertrains, as they do not require band-aids to travel several hundred miles comfortably and efficiently. Give me a TDI, or for that matter a midsize sedan with a direct-injection gas four-cylinder, and I'll outlast and outrun your Volt.

gagrice

larsb just does not see the big picture. A Volt where he lives would also suffer from AC dragging down his mileage. As soon as Congress puts a big cap on Coal generation that 10 cent electricity will be history. Someone has to pay for it. No one has posted which states have smart meters that can lower the rates at night. We are getting smart meters just no discount for overnight usage. GM cannot survive selling 2 Volts in the USA.

larsb

Gary says, "larsb just does not see the big picture"

Hold on, while I double over in laughter, fall off my chair, and hyperventilate from a giggle attack....
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OK, back to business. I DO see the big picture - that picture is that our dependence on gasoline is on the way down. It cannot be stopped. It should not be stopped. The EREV Volt is another step, just as were the gasoline-electric hybrids before it.

Is the Volt the perfect car for EVERYONE? No, and that car is impossible to build. If not, we would all be driving the perfect car already.

You can only build a car to meet a certain need for a certain group.

I'm not worried about electricity rates going up - I just insulated myself from that problem by leasing a solar panel system.

For 5 months out of the year, I'm going to be feeding the grid from my roof.

Gary says, "No one has posted which states have smart meters that can lower the rates at night. "

It's not "state by state" it's "utility company by utility company." Some companies have it, others do not. I would doubt there is a valid list showing them all.

michael2003

Seems like with the rates you're paying you're an excellent candidate for going solar and getting an electric car to charge up during the day.

eaton53

"It's not "state by state" it's "utility company by utility company." Some companies have it, others do not. I would doubt there is a valid list showing them all."

Not only that, it seems to be "by utility company by state".
And in my state, it's not even all year.
But when the off peak is in effect it's dirt, dirt cheap.

I look at the first Volts like TV's. The first ones were really expensive. People with money bought them because they were cool and made a statement. Regular people went to bars or looked through store windows, waiting for them to become affordable.

Like every other electrical gizmo they started getting cheaper. Eventually TV killed the radio star and so electric cars will also take over. It's just a matter of time... this is the dawn of a revolution.

igh

> How many people work at night and would be able to use solar to charge during > the day?

I do not know why people are still ignorant about grid-tied solar. You do not
need to charge at night using solar. You generate during the day, feed that
power to the utility company to accumulate credits and then draw that credit
at night, At 8kwh and 300 days/per year if your solar panels are designed to
generate 2400KwH over and above your residential needs, you charge the Volt
for free. With residential time of use metering where the utility company pays
you more during peak day hours between 12-6 you may only need to generate
about 2000KWH extra throughout the year. In my area (silicon valley) that
translates to 1.3KW of solar capacity - current cost of that after rebates is 5K.

You can do the math - payback is 5 years, Panels are guaranteed for 25-30 yrs.

larsb

For those worrying about the "climbing" capabilities of the Volt, here's some new data to digest:

Chevy Volt heads to Pikes Peak to practice mountain climbing

snakeweasel

I wouldn't worry to much about performance going up Pikes Peak or other mountain roads. Usually they are winding two lane roads that you really don't want to be going to fast on.

reddroverr

They say this car will get only 67mpg. I know with my driving patterns it would be much higher since it is reported to get a 50 mile all electric range.. At any rate....

The Karma and Volt use a similar powertrain configuration known as a series hybrid, but cars that use it are becoming more commonly known as extended range electric vehicles.

Essentially, after running in pure electric mode for a short distance - 50 miles in the case of the Karma, 40 miles in the Volt - and depleting the vehicle's battery, a small internal combustion engine kicks in to generate electricity to drive the car. Unlike a more conventional hybrid like the Ford Fusion, there is no mechanical transmission connecting the engine to the wheels.

Coincidentally, the Karma uses a 2.4 liter 4-cylinder engine sourced from General Motors for this purpose.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,547987,00.html

And what's more, Fisker is planning to build a more direct competitor to the Volt. A moderately priced sedan. Get this, they are buying an indled GM plant for production..

larsb

Great. They did the SAME THING with the EV-1. Let's hope the results are different this time

lGoing Back to Cali

As part of the California rollout, GM plans to make 100 Volts available to three utilities for testing. The cars will be used as fleet vehicles, and performance data will be collected via GM's OnStar in-car communications for a Department of Energy-run research program.

Financially strapped GM has a lot riding on the Chevy Volt. The car is designed to run for 40 miles on its lithium ion batteries and then use an engine-generator combination for longer rides. GM expects that most customers will do the majority of their driving on electric charge only, making the cost per mile cheaper than gas-only cars.

Even with the public excitement over electric cars, automakers are still not totally sure how consumers will adjust to the new technology and how electric components will operate in real-world conditions.

GM, as well as other automakers, plans to offer electric vehicles in certain regions that will invest in the infrastructure to support them. The California research program calls for the installation of 500 charging stations at people's homes, at businesses, and in public places.

fho2008

Yawn....................might as well be talking hydrogen. GM will never make one you can buy. Lease? Maybe. Tease ya with 220 MPG? Definately.

CARB was bought by the oil companies, people loved the EV1

As long as big oil has the $ (and they do) they can and will stop any major auto company from going electric.

Who killed the electric car?

PF_Flyer

I know everyone jumps right on board with the conspiracy theories, but electric vehicles do a pretty good job of "killing" themselves off because of one word... practicality.

Maybe an EV could fill the NEEDS of 80% of the driving population as some claim. But I know for sure that an overpriced, limited range electric vehicle doesn't come close to filling the WANTS of 80% of the driving population.

Until there is a breakthrough in battery technology, I suppose we'll be hearing how "nefarious forces" are conspiring to keep EV's off the roads.

reddroverr

I am not big on conspiracy theories. The so called 100mpg carb never existed.
The volt is fine if it performs as anticipated. It is basically the cost that flumps it and other EVs of various iterations to minority status. The wild card is still 5-10 dollar gas or worse...shortages.

fho2008

Now that Toyota is supposedly bringing an all electric prius here, they gotta price it well below the $40,000 and closer to the Prius and Honda hybrid, especially if Honda goes all electric as an option also.

michael2003

I'd like to ask the Host to start a new forum to discuss Volt Ordering/Prices. It would be great if folks could identify where they're able to put in an order for a Volt and be able to get the vehicle at either MSRP or even with the GM discount. I know that all the local dealers I've contacted are insisting that they will wait to see what the market will bear, so I'd like to give my business to to a dealer that wants to sell cars and keep the good will of the buyers.

fho2008

When and if you can buy one, let me know. Remember the EV1?

larsb

In what way are you trying to compare the Volt to the EV-1?

The EV-1 was a two seater. Volt seats 5.
The EV-1 was limited to 50-70 miles. The Volt has no "distance" limit - can be refueled and driven across the country.

They are very different cars.

dmathews3

Plus you can buy the Volt. Only selected people got to RENT the EV-1.

fho2008

Like I said................................When and if you can buy one, let me know. Remember the EV1?

snakeweasel

They are supposed to be out by the end of the year, so now you know.

fho2008

I said WHEN and IF you can buy one..................can you buy one now? Now you know.

larsb

You should take "IF" out of the sentence...They will be for sale or LEASE very soon, on schedule.

Chevrolet Volt gets early release date -- ahead of Nissan Leaf competitor
By Aaron Foley |
April 21, 2010, 11:24AM
General Motors has pushed up the release date of its Chevrolet Volt electric model to October, two months before the planned release of the Nissan Leaf.

GM Chairman Edward Whitacre made the announcement during an address at a Kansas plant, where he also announced that the automaker had paid off government loans from the U.S. and Canada.

Last month, Nissan announced that the Leaf would cost around $25,000 after tax breaks -- significantly less than a $35,000 Volt. Ford has also announced an electric Focus, which is not due until next year.

Though prices may sway customers one way or another, a blogger at Tainted Green points out that since the Volt runs partially on gasoline -- as opposed to the all-electric Volt -- some customers