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Will the Chevy Volt Succeed?



  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    you ask a good question

    the answer imo, is that GM spends more on promoting how green they are than they do on the technology.

    There's a great deal of pressure from the investment community to see if GM is looking out to the future because 5 years after the Prius hit the showroom floor, GM still has nothing worth buying in the land of hybrids.

    The Volt is a great looking car show piece. I'm guessing by 2110 Toyota will have something 5 years more advanced than GM in the hybrid world. You just cant catch up overnight by putting mock ups at the car show.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    GM keeps talking about the hybrid car it plans to build ..... while honda and toyota just build them.

    Japanese car makers sell cars. U.S. car makers sell promises.

  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Japanese car makers sell cars. U.S. car makers sell promises

    What does that mean? It seems to me that the domestic auto manufacturers actually do sell cars. How would you go about selling a promise?

    A couple years ago Toyota was saying that the next generation of Prius would be out in 2008 with significantly better mileage and using Li-ion battery packs. That's not going to happen. Toyota is also publicly stating that they'll have a plug-in Prius available in 2010.
  • 1stpik1stpik Member Posts: 495
    Are you following me? Every post I make you're right there to disagree with it.

    Unfortunately, engaging in semantic hyperbole, and offering the popular tu quoque challenge to Toyota simply doesn't refute any assertion I made.

    Anyway, a car maker that promises it will build a hybrid SOME DAY, and a car maker that simply delays an update to a hybrid that it ALREADY makes, are two different things.

    To paraphrase you -- it seems to me that Japanese auto manufacturers actually do sell hybrids. How would you go about driving a Chevy Volt?

  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    2010 keeps getting closer...

    Vote Of Confidence
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    GM does make hybrids. Whether or not you want to consider them hybrids is up to you. GM refers to them as "mild hybrids". The name kind of says it all. I suspect that GM could have simply done what Nissan did with their Altima hybrid, which was to pay Toyota to use their technology. GM chose not to do this.

    On the other hand GM's two-mode hybrid system does provide significant fuel savings. They're choosing to incorporate this into full sized vehicles first because that is their customer base and that is where the greatest fuel savings will be achieved.

    The way you'd go about driving a Volt is to wait until 2010. If you still can't drive one then it will be due to a delay in the battery pack. You've already stated that this type of delay isn't the same thing as not fullfilling a promise. All GM's press releases have stated that this production date is contingent on the battery pack being ready. In 2006 when Toyota was announcing what the third generation Prius would be capable of I don't remember reading these types of disclaimers.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I'm not sure why anyone would make a parallel between the Chevy Volt and a turbocharged Geo Metro. Unless they're stating that they're both ridiculous. Maybe so but Toyota, Ford, Chysler and some lesser knowns have also apparently jumped on the ridiculous bandwagon. At the same time Nissan and Mitsubishi are aggresively pursuing an EV with no range extending capability.

    When you're testing these battery packs for endurance that will take time. GM's next milestone to reach is April of this year when they have stated they will have a fully functioning prototype.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    i think he makes a good point.

    there are thousands of happy Prius owners driving the roads.

    GM's hybrid is just talk and no walk

    we're talking about a 4-5 year lead in the hybrid world by Toyota - that's pretty significant imo

    May GM will deliver us a hybrid hummer? :confuse:
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    GM's hybrid is just talk and no walk

    Which of GM's hybrids are you talking about? Saying that GM's "mild hybrid" doesn't match up to Toyota's "full hybrid" doesn't make much sense. It's comparable to stating a Ford Ranger can't tow as much as a Ford F-150. It wasn't designed to. Whether or not the minimal mileage benefit from this mild hybrid technology makes any sense is a subjective opinion. Even if it's only 2 more mpg that's better than nothing. So if the price to achieve this is cheap enough then the customers will choose this option.

    Now GM's two-mode hybrid system is another matter. It provides significant fuel savings.

    GM is the first to admit that they made tactical errors in discontinuing their EV program and letting Toyota take a big lead in hybrid technology. So anyone criticizing GM in this regard is simply echoing GM's own position. I believe they are aggressively trying to make up ground. It doesn't happen overnight.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    "Which of GM's hybrids are you talking about?"

    I guess the Volt would be a good start if you want to call it a hybrid.
    Then there is the Chevy Maibu Hybrid.
    And there was a truck hybrid they introduced last year which didn't provide much.

    Just because GM admitted to their own blunder by pulling the plug on their Electric Car, doesn't make their black eye go away. Not until they bring something of substance to the market.

    The two hybrid system sounds great? When can the public buy it?

    I think GM is out promoting themselves as green when they really don't have anything hybrid worthy to offer yet. Are they hoping people will put off leaving for another manufacturer who have better options here and now?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Toyota also pulled the plug on the RAV4 EV. Do they still have a black eye?

    The Chevy Volt is not a hybrid, it's an EV. Hybrid implies a blend of multiple drive systems. The Chevy Volt will use only electric motors for it's propulsion. It simply carries along a generator for recharging.

    My understanding was that the Yukon/Tahoe hybrids are available to the public in very limited quantities. Kind of like the Prius when it first came out. And someone looking for a full sized SUV hybrid does not have better options here and now.
  • aspesisteveaspesisteve Member Posts: 833
    does Toyota have a black eye?
    in the world of delivering hybrids to the masses?

    no, not at all. not in my opinion

    toyota is the darling of the green movement.

    maybe they got lucky? maybe they had better vision? maybe they are a better run company?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    toyota is the darling of the green movement

    I agree with you there. That is primarily a reflection of how perception/image trumps reality. That's why GM regrets not pursuing hybrids earlier. They didn't appreciate how valuable this "green image" is. It doesn't matter whether you are really green just so long as your perceived to be. In that sense the Prius became a Halo car. It didn't matter whether or not they made money on the vehicle or whether or not Toyota was improving the fuel efficiency of their fleet. People now identified Toyota with the Prius and that's all that mattered.

    On the reality side, which often times goes unnoticed. Toyota was right there with the domestics in lobbying against the proposal to increase CAFE standards. They also joined in the lawsuit to try to fight California's mandate to limit CO2 emissions. Their fleet mpg is lower than it was in 1980 because like everyone else they continue to increase the size and power of their vehicles. It just doesn't matter because when people think of Toyota they think of the Prius, not the Land Cruiser, the Tundra or a 268 horsepower Camry.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Apparently nobody told these cities that GM's hybrid technology is junk, they are all talk and no walk and they only sell promises. It seems that had these cities known this they would be buying their hybrid buses from Toyota.

    hybrid buses
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    Still working out kinks in the Volt like powering the windshield wipers. Talk about biting off more than you can chew. But it makes for a day's blog entry ;)

    Beat To The Punch?
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Just how much power will a 500 watt sound system use, not to mention AC, Windows, etc?? I thought it was a hybrid of sorts. Is it pure EV?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The ICE vehicle that I drive has a cooling system for the engine. Is that a workaround or a solution?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    Just how much power will a 500 watt sound system use

    What a sound system is rated at is meaningless. If you are really putting 500 watts through your vehicle's sound system I can pretty much guarantee that you are now deaf. I'd guess that most people play their audio systems at a level that uses less than 5 watts.

    AC will probably represent a significant drain on an EV's range. I know that my vehicle's mileage is 3-5% less when I'm running AC. So an EV will use more electricity just like an ICE uses more gas.

    The Volt is not a hybrid. It is an EV that carries along its own generator for recharging. So under conditions that use a lot of electricity the generator will be kicking in a little sooner. At which point how much electricity is being used is no more relevant than it is in an ICE vehicle.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think some people would consider that a series hybrid. With the electric motor being the motivation. Probably a simpler way to go. I think that is how railroad engines work.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    It is a series hybrid but I think that is a misleading term. In my mind hybrid implies multiple drive systems. The Volt will only have one drive system, electric. It will only have one source for its power, the batteries. The batteries can either be charged off the grid or from an onboard generator. I'm not sure why that makes it a hybrid. I guess you could say that it has multiple sources for where it obtains the electricity. That could be said for a pure EV that is charged strictly from the grid. Some of it's electricity might have come from coal, some from gas, some from nuclear, etc.. With the Volt you just add onboard generator to this list. As far as I'm concerned that doesn't make it a hybrid. GM agrees with me on this. They refer to the Volt as an EV with a range extender.

    It is a simpler way to go than the full hybrid system that Toyota uses on vehicles like the Prius. The downside is that when a vehicle like the Volt has to use it's generator to charge it's batteries that represents an additional energy conversion step, which will always represent some loss. So it's a trade-off. The Volt offers a simpler, probably cheaper, system but on those occasions when your driving over 40 miles you will be getting slightly worse mileage than you would have gotten had this ICE been powering the wheels directly rather than powering a generator. I personally prefer the Volt's proposed system.
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    I think you'll find that it is not considered a hybrid, as you stated. The flexibility is in that it can be developed and produced with any electrical power generating source that comes along. It isn't limited to ICE, fuel cell, etc. In fact, it could be converted to a different electrical power generating source if conditions changed.

    If the thing pans out, at all, I suspect that you'll find that it won't necessarily be less efficient when driving over the battery capacity. I recognize your feeling that another power conversion is inefficient, but in this case, you don't need a big engine that can power the vehicle up hills and accelerate fast. The engine will be designed to most efficiently power the generator at its charging capacity and shut down when finished. Maybe a one cylinder turbo diesel? The battery accelerates the vehicle and climbs the hills! That will not be another power conversion loss in the normal sense, as the ICE, or whatever, is only driving a generator at its best efficiency.
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    Hi gfr1, nice to find someone else on the web who also thinks that at the present state of development a single cylinder engine may be able to power an automobile. My experience has been with this proposition that it is usually met with some derision or just ignored.

    You mentioned the diesel single cylinder although at the moment I have discounted the use of diesels primarily because they run too slow for direct coupling to a small frame size generator. I adhere to the principle that electrical machines are sized by torque and not power. Therefore the lower torque devices are the ones to install on mobile platforms since they will also be much lighter. And we can infer that they will also be less expensive as well. A low torque but substantial generator will by definition have to run at very high speed in order to produce the maximum power which will occur at the highest RPM and we are talking of base speeds approaching 10,000rpm and beyond for spirited driving. Battery charging rpms not so much.

    It's a fact that Diesels are restricted to 4500 rpm for thermodynamic reasons you may know so direct coupling would entail the use of a larger generator. OR you could gear up the generator in order to use a smaller frame size machine. But that comes with a 7% loss for the 2:1 step using spur gears, say, plus a gear whine. The gasoline engine, on the contrary, has no problem with occasional forays into the highest rpms and is therefore a more suitable partner for driving the generator using a simple direct coupling.

    That's not the only reason to reject the diesel. So if you can bear another load of pompousity on my part : -

    This is my argument against the diesel in the generator set role. I wrote it for the Toyota system but it applies equally to pure series hybrids like the Volt. I would further suggest several classifications of series hybrids depending on the size of the battery assist relative to the engine. There is the batteryless version that may be in the works. Then there is the Prius with 1.3Kwh and finally the Volt with the 16Kwh.

    The problem using the Toyota HSD with diesels is incompatibility due to the fixed (magnetic) field generator normally referred to as MG1. This generator requires maximum torque input all the way up the power/rpm curve. Modern gasoline engines can provide that. The generator can then provide max current at all times. A diesel engine, in comparison, has a torque peak at 2800rpm beyond which it decays until reaching maximum power.

    On one turbodiesel I investigated I found that the torque at the top speed of 4200rpm was down 33%. This means the generated current will be down 33% if you are not to stall out the engine. The repercussion for the electrical side of the equation means the copper loading of the generator, or ampacity as we call it, will not be fully utilised at the very point we need it most. Either that or we can take a risk that peak current at 2800rpm will not end up by roasting the stator winding. Of course the designer will probably size up the generator by 33% to avoid this issue.

    One of the reasons the design of MG1 results in an exceptionally small machine is because it is not necessary, in this automotive application, to have a continuous type power rating on the generator. Therefore its small size is already at the limit for the expected short term duration of heavy currents that flow during extreme acceleration. For that reason there is probably insufficient latitude regarding its thermal time constant. The generator designer would probably choose to increase the rotor stack length over and above that which would be required with a gasoline engine of the equivalent power. Naturally you would have to add this cost on to the diesel premium.
  • gfr1gfr1 Member Posts: 55
    T2 -- You have a far more studied insight than I, on the subject. My reference to a single cylinder turbo diesel power source was not an advocation, but one that I just threw out there to point away from the traditional concept. I would assume that whatever ICE concept is developed for electrical generation, that it would be likely to be pretty much a constant speed engine/generator. That reduces some of engineering and efficiency hurdles. Mechanical loading and heat would likely be a couple of the main considerations for the power generating source. I suspect that total weight will be problematical for any electrical powered vehicle, but it needs to be able to cruise over the "Grapevine" and any such mountain passes. That will require some complications as to motor/battery size, plus the mechanical loading and heat issues.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    whatever you want to call it, if they pull it off, the volt changes the game. the first step is to get thebasic model proven, then you can worry about models to suit your individual habits.

    I would rather have a 70 mpg diesel Polo than a 50 mpg hybrid.

    I do believe charlie maxwell and other's predictions of likely oil shortages in the next few years. Any vehicle to circumvent this entirely or partially will be very highly prized.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I suspect that total weight will be problematical for any electrical powered vehicle, but it needs to be able to cruise over the "Grapevine" and any such mountain passes

    I would think for a vehicle like the Volt these types of situations would require some driver intervention. You would want to be able to command the generator to start re-charging the battery pack even if it hadn't yet fallen below the threshold where this would automatically happen.
  • gljvdgljvd Member Posts: 129
    I don't understand why people feel that citys are a big problem for EV's .

    There are many creative solutions for these problems and I'm sure as EV's become more popular towns and citys will start to deploy some of my ideas and other perhaps better ideas.

    One idea would be parking meters attached to the grid . Depending on the time of day the cost to charge can change . So if your parked at 12 noon you might pay x amount and at 12 noon it may be y amount with y being less than x . The city can also charge you a small fee for charging off the grid. It would be more expensive than parking in your own garage but you could charge your car and pay less than filling it with gas.

    For parking decks you can simply add charging stations similar to the meter . It would be an additional income for these places and at the start it would be a good way to drive up busniess as not many places would have this . You can apply this every where , malls , stores , fast food places . If they can charge 80% of the battery in 30 minutes fast food and resturant places can become the new gas stations . Pull into a Wendy's plug in and get some food. When you walk out pay the tab for the charge and get going .

    Personaly for me I live in NJ in north bergen . Its a little town called hasbrouck heights. I drive 22m or mabye 24miles depending on the route to and from work thats located in hoboken. If I can do that without using any gas I will be happy camper. Most of the trip i'm stuck in traffic barely going 20mph and in my 2007 torrent I get 13-16mpg . So anything will be better than that.

    I drive down to florida once a year though and a filling station for the battery would be very very nice. I could stop and fill every so often to keep my mileage up. this year i'm driving down on the 18th of april and i'm sure i will be paying at least 3.15-3.20 a gallon on gas . The only problem is that I need an suv and not a car. So if they can make a cross over like the torrent on the volt platform even if it only gets 25 or so miles to the charge instead of the 40 of the volt i would snap it up at $30k easily
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The only problem is that I need an suv and not a car. So if they can make a cross over like the torrent on the volt platform even if it only gets 25 or so miles to the charge instead of the 40 of the volt i would snap it up at $30k easily

    GM is planning on offering a plug-in version of the Saturn Vue in 2010. In fact they expect it to be out before the Volt. I have no idea what the price will be. I do know that the electric range will only be about 10 miles.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    I've been skeptical of the Volt making it to market as planned and on schedule and I'm seeing nothing to get rid of that feeling that They're Not Gonna Make It
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I didn't read anything in that article that indicated GM would not make it's 2010 target date. I think you are misinterpreting the E85 engine comment to mean there won't be an electric motor. That is not how I read it. GM has always stated that the ICE generator used to charge the battery pack could be powered by a variety of sources, E85 being one of them. I believe the article is merely stating that will be how the first models are configured.

    To balance your EV skepticism/pessimism here's an article regarding the Volt from a group with a different bias.

    Volt update
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    "the engineering focus at the moment is solely on launching the car fitted with an E85 ethanol-powered gasoline engine."

    Everythng I've read up to this point is that they were sticking with coming out with the electric powered Volt on time. They've been fairly insistent on it.

    I have no doubt that they can come out with a vehicle named the Volt in 2010. But if it's not what they've been touting, if the primary mode of powering the vehicle is an E85 engine, then they will not have come out with THE Volt that they've been so certain they had all worked out.

    There are 8 entries on the Alternate Route related to the Volt. I haven't seen much of anything that makes me think a practical electric vehcile from Chevy is going to hit the market in 2010.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I can assure you that the Volt will not come out as an ICE powered vehicle. GM may not make their 2010 production target but the idea that they would produce a vehicle called the Volt that was not powered by an electric motor is ludicrous.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    That IS a ludicrous idea, but that's what the article says the focus is now... "according to sources". We don't have all that long to wait and see how this plays out.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    No we don't have that long to wait. So far GM has been very open in regards to how they are progressing with this project. We will probably know prior to 2010 whether or not the Volt will meet the production target date. Again, I don't see GM releasing a non-electric Volt. Talk about a PR debacle.
  • gljvdgljvd Member Posts: 129
    an e85 is useless outside a few markets. Here in jersey it wont sell. I see no reason why they would make the volt into that .

    At the nyc show they had a saturn concept that was based on the volt platform. I think they will make the dead line and it will come in at under 30k the question is how many do they make in the first year and how late into 2010 does it come out.

    Gm really needs something to compete against Toyota and the other companys and if gas is going to keep going up their suv's and trucks are going to sell less and less. I have a 2007 torrent and was paying about 2.50 for gas when I bought it . I'm now paying 3.05 for gas and it seems that by the summer I may be paying 3.50 for it. That may not seem like to much , but in the course of a year and a half it seem s that I will be paying and extra $18 per fill up. I fill up twice a week so thats $36 a week. $144 a month and $1728 bucks . I'd gladly pay 30 grand for a volt based vue or even 35k . My daily commute can be made on the nightly charge o the car as I only drive 22miles . The weekend when I see my gf and drive 100m + would be greatly reduced in cost also .

    There is a huge market for this car if they can build it. I don't think anyone is expecting gas to go back down to sane levels and if anything Jersey is looking at $4 a gallon by the end of the year and other states might see $5 a gallon. I much rather pay extra in the electric bill and so will many other americans
  • stommpsstommps Member Posts: 7
    Hmm there seems to be a lot of confusion as to how the Volt will work. It is not a pure battery electric vehicle. It is a battery electric vehicle that carries it own electric generator. So after the batteries run low after the initial charge from plugging it in at home the generator kicks in and charges the battery as you drive it. The batteries still drive the electric motor as they are being recharged. The first generation Volt has always been planned to have an ICE that runs the generator. There have been rumors that future generations volts would have things like a deisel engine, hydrogen cell, or another large batter in place of the ICE to run the generator. That is why the articles mention that they are focusing only on a ICE version.

    Here is a you tube clip of some Volt in progress info -and-mule-video/
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Member Posts: 9,372
    No confusion here. The primary source of propulsion is going to be electric with the ICE as a backup. That's not what it sounds like is coming into focus.
  • gwmortgwmort Member Posts: 22
    If GM can deliver a plug in hybrid in the next 2 years it will be a smashing success.

    I currently own a 2003 Prius. I bought it new over 5 years ago and have run it more than 96,000 miles so far. Other than replacing a couple sets of tires I have never had a lick of trouble from the car. I love it.

    I tried to buy one in 2002, but the dealers didn't have any and being a big man I couldn't order a car off the internet I hadn't sat in. With regards to hybrids I am an early adopter.

    In the beginning, most people didn't know what a hybrid was. I got quizzical looks all the time and frequently fielded questions from strangers about it. People know what hybrids are now, they are hurting for more efficient vehicles and hybrid sales are skyrocketing as more and more models become available.

    The volt won't face the same learning curve with the public. People will need to learn the difference between a PHEV and a reg hybrid, that is a finesse point really once you're in the subject area. The early adopters will of course flock in again (I'm trying to figure out if you'll need to establish residency in CA to get a Volt in 2010), but everyone else that has been growing more curious about hybrids will be drawn to the bigger numbers.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    the latest quotes from the GM bigwigs puts the Volt's estimated cost as high as $48,000.

    At that price, they are going to have a big fat FAILURE on their hands.

    (anyone remember the EV-1 fiasco? GM appears intent on repeating it.)
  • toyolla2toyolla2 Member Posts: 158
    The following segment looks like something that you might have seen on the Autoextremist site lately, but actually it was posted on the ABG site courtesy of Parsignian who is more versed than I regarding GM's products. The following paragraph is not GM bashing but voices the exasperation some have felt within the Green movement regarding GM's product offerings -not to say that Honda hasn't been off the mark with its Accord power hybrid and perhaps also the Insight which ,in retrospect, may have been withdrawn prematurely.

    "Well, this makes sense. GM's hybrids are stupidly marketed: you have the weak BAS hybrids (Aura, Vue, Malibu) that aren't much, if any, more efficient or powerful than a four-cylinder competitor, and high-priced two-mode hybrids like the Tahoe, which have no market. If you're a hybrid intender, you're probably not looking for a two-ton body-on-frame SUV; if you're a Tahoe/Suburban kind of person, you're not likely to buy a hybrid."
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    GM has also stated that they will initially be selling this vehicle at a loss, just like Toyota did with the Prius. It's also likely that there will be tax credits involved. I'd be surprised if GM prices the Volt higher than $35k
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    I would be surprised if it's not at least $40K, because of what the brass has been saying recently.

    GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz told MSNBC in a recent interview (see page 2) that development costs for the upcoming Chevrolet Volt range-extending electic vehicle have been higher than initially anticipated, and that a "realistic price" for the car would be $48,000.

    Now, Volt bashers/doubters on various Internet forums and blogs have thrown up their arms in disgust because to them, the price target has been completely blown up and the car's value proposition - as a car that will potentially eliminate the need to fill the gas tank during normal commuting duties for most buyers - becomes dubious. After all, you can buy a LOT of gasoline, even at $3.15 per gallon, for $18,000. Actually, assuming 40 miles per gallon that a $21,760 Prius can easily manage, $18,000 buys about 228,571 miles of driving. If the Volt were $48,000 with no tax incentives, a buyer could pay for 333,206 miles' worth of gasoline by purchasing a Prius instead.

    However, Mr. Lutz also went on to say that a $40,000 price for the Volt may be possible if GM didn't earn a profit on it, and the price could potentially be pushed closer to $30,000 with government tax incentives. Since GM has already made the choice to sell its expensive two-mode hybrid system fitted into its largest trucks and SUVs at a loss to build volume and brand recognition, it seems extremely likely to me that GM will sell the first generation Volts at a loss just for the environmental and PR coup the car would be. On top of that, let's hope that if our own federal government was willing to give generous tax incentives to buyers of hybrid vehicles that still use gasoline (and in the case of some, still use a reasonably large amount of it), it would hopefully be willing to step up to the plate with incentives tailored to the Volt, which - if it performs as advertised - has the potential to significantly reduce oil consumption.

    As far as tax incentives, I have not heard anything about Congress doing anything new for tax breaks on any new or upcoming cars.

    I can guarantee you right now that GM will not be able to finagle a tax break that only encompasses ONE vehicle.

    most of that from this page:

    $48K a re-VOLTing price
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I would be surprised if it's not at least $40K, because of what the brass has been saying recently.

    Then your opinion is contrary to the author of that article's opinion.

    I can guarantee you right now that GM will not be able to finagle a tax break that only encompasses ONE vehicle.

    I'm sure that's correct. However GM is not the only company with plans to bring a PHEV to the market. Toyota has also stated that they will be offering a plug-in Prius in 2010. GM will have a plug-in version of it's Vue. Ford and Chrysler are also developing plug-ins. If there's something about this technology that makes it prohibitively expensive then that's not going to be a problem unique to GM.

    Reading that article it is kind of amusing that they use the Prius as an example of how the Volt doesn't make financial sense from a gas savings perspective. Isn't that the same argument that was made against the early Priuses?
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary says, Then your opinion is contrary to the author of that article's opinion.

    That's because HE is factoring in a tax break - and I don't think there will be one. At least not if the Volt is ready when they SAY it will be ready.

    Anything Congress wants to put toward a broader PHEV tax credit, I'm all for it.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    Back to applied costs:

    15,000 miles per year/25 mpg x $4 gallon of gas = $2400 @ year

    15,000 miles per year/25 mpg x $5 gallon of gas = $3000 @ year

    Zappy G and Charlie Maxwell are predicting oil prices that will take gas to levels in excess of $5.. They have been pretty much correct so far.

    6 or 7 years that adds up...depending on the longevity of the battery.
    OF course the electricity isn't free and it probably won't all be pure charging miles. Still it is reported to get 50+ when the engine turns.
    So if the alternative is a $27K Prius then this becomes a runner.

    You also have the concept of pretty much guaranteed around town useage even in the event of gas shortages.

    This is a proof of concept car...if it works and succeeds you can bet there were be others nipping at its heels.

    States could certainly waive the sales tax..some states are gung ho on the GHG thingie.

    Now it is up to GM to show us the honey.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    You bring up a good point when you mention gas shortages. So far all we've had to deal with is high gas prices but I've got to believe we're not too far from a situation where there just won't be enough gas to meet our demand. Some people might say that's impossible because the market will just price gas so that demand and supply are in balance. I personally think that our government would step in at some point and actually fix prices. They've done it before. At that point shortages will soon follow.

    As you mentioned, the Volt will give you guaranteed short distance useage. So besides the payback time based upon the price of a gallon of gas what is the value of knowing you will be always be able to drive for 40 miles regardless of the gasoline supply? That would be worth a lot to me.
  • reddroverrreddroverr Member Posts: 509
    The blog you it yours? I didn''t see anything but opinion and some supposed insiders gossip. Maybe that person knows..I don't know if they know. The source article only talked about the effort GM is making.

    At any rate..I would not be surprised if the Volt was late. That would probablyy be par for something like this. But mind you...2010 finishes in 2.5 years.
  • gwmortgwmort Member Posts: 22
    What I don't get is I've seen several articles saying the Vue PHEV will be out late 2009. Its from GM, will be a PHEV, and use lithium batteries. I understand its not the tweaked performance design the volt will be and won't have the same range, but really if they can do one why not the other?
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    The Vue will only have a 10 mile all electric range so a much smaller battery pack. And this battery pack may end up being NiMH instead of Li-ion. Since NiMH has already been proven in EVs and hybrids there are no uncertainties there. In the Volt the car is propelled solely by the electric motor where the ICE kicks in for re-charging. I believe the plug-in Vue will basically be the existing Vue with a bigger battery that will allow for some electric only driving but after that the ICE will be providing the propulsion. So it is a very different configuration than the Volt.
  • gwmortgwmort Member Posts: 22
    Thank you, tpe, I hadn't considered the fundamental difference in the powertrain.

    I am so used to my prius its easy to forget the volt hybrid will be so very unlike the present hybrids.
  • tpetpe Member Posts: 2,342
    I may be wrong about the plug-in Vue being essentially the existing hybrid Vue with a bigger battery pack. I think the 2009 or 2010 plug-in Vue will also incorporate GM's two-mode hybrid system. Currently the hybrid Vue uses GM's "mild" hybrid system.
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