I kind of laughed when I heard the acronym, GUT, but then I realized that in Japanese, it doesn't sound all that bad. GUT is pronounced more like "GOT" in Japanglish and doesn't have any negative connotations. Also, Japanese like talking about having "guts" (in the bravado sense) so SOJ probably thought it was a cool name.
* notice the subtle fender bulge on the C-pillar? * tail lights are Nissan-ish, pulled forward * rear door goes out and *up* a little * the roof is huge, I love it! * door handles are hidden, no key holes at all! * front overhang is long
of the next Impreza, according to this link! It's sized like an Impreza, but with a Legacy-like wheelbase. In any event, all future Subies will take styling cures from it.
The link suggests the folks at FHI may be a little nervous about the design. I can understand, considering the utterly boring stuff they've been churning out for years.
Paul Hansen has made a close examination of those spy photos of the 2.5 Legacy turbo. His conclusion add more mystery to the puzzle.
Ah well, I hate to disappoint people, but when the Legacy 2.5 turbo arrives in the States, it won't be in the current bodyshell.
The facts are there in the spy photos. Take a look at the one with the engine bay open. Focus on the headlight area, where the headlight bolts to the frame. Look at the space between the headlight and the frame. That space doesn't exist on a current Legacy B4/GT-B - the headlight is flush against the frame.
Those spy pics are rather rare - they show a glimpse of the true car that's underneath tacked-on JDM sheet metal from the current car.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
So, does that mean the '04 Legacy turbo will in fact be all-new, or will we have to wait for the '05 model for the turbo?
The H6 could have been even cheaper without all this: automatic transmission, body color door handles, body color foldable large-type exterior mirrors, a leather wrapped shifter handle, leather wrapped steering wheel and an automatic climate control system. OK, keep the two leather items and dump the rest.
blane: the grille is the entire focus of that car. Might as well just make a WRX 2 door if you don't like the design. Why even bother?
I don't necessarily agree with Paul. It would be next to impossible to get a next-gen Legacy, which very likely will have a longer wheelbase, and fit current sheet metal on it. In fact I'm sure it would be wider too.
They might have revised the front of the frame for the new engine, still using the current platform. No way would the sheetmetal fit.
Actually, if you look closely at several of the spy photos from Alaska, you can see the cars were "cobbled" together with odd and ill-fitting body parts. You have to look closely, but the evidence is there.
Wondering if this new entry-level H-6 Outback, the Baja Sport, and the Outback Audio Pkg., are just efforts on SOA's part to clear out excess parts inventory; to make way for all-new '04 models??
It seems somewhat odd to offer several new mid-year models, with '04 models to be announced within a month or so.
I was impressed with the style of the B11S...except the grille. The grille seems to detract from the rest of the car, which is a shame considering how beautiful it is. I had an extra 15 minutes to do a little Photoshop work, so here's a more simple result:
The image is a little rough around the edges, but it's all I could manage in the time I had.
So anyone know why the black and silver Foresters (which both have hood scoops, which means XT, right?) have different front grilles and wheels? I thought they were both LHD but are these models for different countries? Thanks!
No Ty! Put the center grille back. Now it has too much of a happy smilie face. ;-)
I actually like the grille [what I'm going to put in it aside]. It does set the B11S apart from ther others. First look will say "Subaru" instead of "350Z".
I think Subaru is absolutely on the right track with this new grille on the B11S. There are several over at nasioc who have also tried to remove/redesign the grille. Each one, IMO, has failed.
Yeah, Bob, the timing is weird. Though they have put the H6 in a special edition model for Canada since the fall.
Put a moonroof on those wagons! There is a definite pent-up demand, so they'd be wise to offer one. People are waiting for a styling change, too, so 2004 could potentially be the best sales year for Imprezas, ever.
tyguy: sorry to say, but you just removed all the character out of that B11S. Looks like a Z clone now.
Keep the grille. Never mind the hideous Aztec, this is the opposite, it's gorgeous. The Audi TT was a similar break through, and now all Audis look sharp. All of them. The whole lineup.
Subaru could do the same - build on the theme and have an entire lineup that is inspiring in its design.
Perhaps most of you are too young to remember, but the main reason that the Edsel died an agonizing, expensive and embarrassing (for Ford) death was the grille. It was said that the designers intended it to subliminally resemble female genitalia. (Although, not worded exactly that way)
Blane, I'm not too old to remember the Edsel. In fact, I remember it well. The comparison with the Edsel is nowhere to be found in the B11S.
The failure with the Edsel had to do with a number of things, not just the grille. The main problem was Ford trying to market a new full-size brand (to compete with Pontiac/Oldsmobile and Dodge/DeSoto), when customers were starting to look towards small cars. The timing was all wrong.
Yes, the grille was a shocker, especially to those not accustomed to a radical-looking (for that era) automobile. The public today is much more used to "radical" designs. So, I don't see any comparison at all.
I think you guys have been brain washed into believing that Subies have to be boring. The B11S is exciting in its styling and has the hardware to back it up.
Sure, the Aztek bombed, but it's so different there's no point even bringing it up. The Baja bombed too, by the way.
The Avalanche and Element have been early hits. So daring styling can be a positive thing. Neither is nearly as sexy as the B11S, either, not even close.
some Subie cars get the grille, and have been on the street a while, it will be no more shocking than BMW's "kidney" grille, or the oft-compared Alfa grille. It will just take some time getting used to, that's all.
As an ex-Alfa owner ('74 GTV coupe and "86 GTV coupe) I find the grille most pleasant! If it comes to be incorporated into Subaru design, It will be great to drive an Alfa "look" that doesn't leak oil!
That rings a bell - the BMW twin kidney grille is its calling card. You can identify any Bimmer, from the CS1 concept to the 760i, by their grilles, as different as those designs are otherwise.
It's a corporate character. OK, maybe borrowed from Alfa a little, but Alfa is world-class in the styling department.
Right now what does the bug-eye WRX have to do with the boxy Forester? Nothing. Just the Subaru logo. No consitency whatsoever across the lineup.
To be honest, if that grille represents the right direction for Subaru, and that is indeed where they go, then Subaru has lost my business. There are too many choices in cars these days to go with something I have to get used to. Audi, VW, and Nissan all produce vehicles that I instantly fell in love with, with nothing whatsoever for me to get used to.
In my mind, there is a big difference between new and cutting edge, and just plain ugly. It's mostly a matter of personal preference and viewpoint, of course, and Subaru will have to determine whose preference represents more purchasing power.
As for my personal choice, the B11S grille represents the "just plain ugly" side, and will steer me to other makes. I'm just one person, though. If the majority of their target market prefer that grille style, then it would make perfect sense for Subaru to take that direction and lose the shopping dollars of the minority who dislike it.
I've spent over 30 years in the design business, and I'll be the first to say if the car is ugly, but it works great, and is a blast to drive—I will buy it. If you are so swayed by the looks of a grille, so as to abandon a particular brand, then, well...there's not much I can say.
But look at how Audi and Nissan won you over - both have been establishing a new design direction and consistent character across their lineups. OK, Nissan only if you count the new Maxima and not the old Sentra.
The grille itself is exaggerated for the concept and could never make production with that size (where would the front license plate go?). But I do see the A-shaped grille with the logo at the top becoming a cool corporate signature.
First time I saw the Audi TT, it was shocking. I joked you couldn't tell which direction it was going. But to this day it keeps growing on me. I'd even argue that it's the most copied vehicle in the last 2 decades. That is huge.
I'm not brand loyal. There are many manufacturers producing VERY nice vehicles right now, and when it comes time for my next purchase, I'm going to consider them all. And yes, style will be one of the determining factors in my decision.
People criticized the bug-eye look of the WRX when it first came out, but did that stop people from buying them? Of course, they did redesign the front end a bit since then, but still the bug-eye WRX sold like hotcakes.
Part of the whole 'concept' thing is to get a feel for public reaction. If SOA is indeed going to turn the page into a new era, they have to explore new designs, some of which may not appeal to everyone.
I like the B11S styling, it's refreshing especially from Subaru. I guess for now this is merely a concept, we'll have to wait & see where it goes.
Have you seen their latest grille, on the A3? It's HUGE! They've combined the upper grille with the lower grille to make one monster grille. There's a picture in the new issue of Automobile magazine. Even I'm having trouble with that one!
If this new theme materializes, I'll bet there will be plenty of people (for whom style is a major consideration) who will take a closer look at Subaru, even if they hadn't shopped it before.
In other words, you can't please everybody!
Style is subjective (duh). At a very basic level, everyone's looking for a car that they think reflects who they are (or want to be perceived as).
Style has no impact on my buying decisions. I'm a guy hung-up on the technical bits. I buy hardware, not character lines.
It will be a wake-up call for Subaru, their customers, and for people who have never considered a Subaru before. I think it's a very smart move on their part.
That sounds like a Japanese car! They're famous for using outrageous names on cars.
I don't recall seeing it? Is it new at the Geneva Show? To be honest, I really haven't looked very closely at other new cars from Geneva yet. I've been so caught up with this B11S, everything else sort of fell by the wayside...
That is the precise problem with subies today. They have become generic looking. What differentiats an Altima from a Jetta from a Camry? Not much.
Subaru is a Niche Player, they can't afford to conform to the standards of the auto-industry cause they'll get beat if they try to take on the big car makers even in looks alone.
The B11S is the most amazing design Subaru has ever done.....blows the 350Z/RX8 right out of the water (& snow, for that matter!) Now about that schnoz that everyone either loves or hates. I like the distinctiveness, but think it's just a wee bit too prominent. I've see some of the photoshop chops....my solution would be to shrink the centre section to about 75% of it's current size....I've actually done this on my computer at work.....I'll try to post it on imagstation next week. Seems to work well, though, and there's even room for a license plate now, below the "nose". Thus, the front end still retains it's distinctiveness, but looks even more attractive.
a couple of Baja Sports at Herb Gordon Subaru in Silver Spring, MD. today. These are the first I've seen at any dealer. Also, in the showroom, was a new mid-year Outback w/audio pkg. No base H-6 Outbacks yet, or '04 Imprezas.
Juice- Maybe the Enjoy will be in the next Batman movie! It looks too cramped.
As for the B11S, I like the distinctiveness of the new design. I feel it would definitely attract new people to the Subaru fold, just to check it out.
BTW, any other news on the Forester XT? One of my coworkers asks me every day if I heard anything new, after the initial press release. He is trying to find out if any prices have been announced yet.
Tyguy- I'm probably in the same camp as you when it comes to style; we're both resistant to change. I remember when the Taurus first debuted the "Ovoid" concept. At the time, I hated it and thought it was a huge marketing blunder. Well time has certainly proven me wrong on that one so I'm now a little more reluctant to criticize the B11S's grill. Besides, as has been pointed out, it will in all probability be toned down in the production model.
Hey, I noticed in the CR auto issue that the Honda S2000 has a normally aspirated 2.0 litre engine cranking out 240hp! How the heck did they manage that?
Comments
Ken
* notice the subtle fender bulge on the C-pillar?
* tail lights are Nissan-ish, pulled forward
* rear door goes out and *up* a little
* the roof is huge, I love it!
* door handles are hidden, no key holes at all!
* front overhang is long
-juice
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?news/ae_news_story.php?id=34670
The link suggests the folks at FHI may be a little nervous about the design. I can understand, considering the utterly boring stuff they've been churning out for years.
Bob
-mike
Don't be afraid to be beautiful! You want feedback? I *love* it!
-juice
Bob
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32- 5115
Bob
Ah well, I hate to disappoint people, but when the Legacy 2.5 turbo arrives in the States, it won't be in the current bodyshell.
The facts are there in the spy photos. Take a look at the one with the engine bay open. Focus on the headlight area, where the headlight bolts to the frame. Look at the space between the headlight and the frame. That space doesn't exist on a current Legacy B4/GT-B - the headlight is flush against the frame.
Those spy pics are rather rare - they show a glimpse of the true car that's underneath tacked-on JDM sheet metal from the current car.
Cheers,
Paul Hansen
So, does that mean the '04 Legacy turbo will in fact be all-new, or will we have to wait for the '05 model for the turbo?
Bob
blane: the grille is the entire focus of that car. Might as well just make a WRX 2 door if you don't like the design. Why even bother?
I don't necessarily agree with Paul. It would be next to impossible to get a next-gen Legacy, which very likely will have a longer wheelbase, and fit current sheet metal on it. In fact I'm sure it would be wider too.
They might have revised the front of the frame for the new engine, still using the current platform. No way would the sheetmetal fit.
-juice
Bob
It seems somewhat odd to offer several new mid-year models, with '04 models to be announced within a month or so.
Bob
I noticed the WRX wagon has a moonroof. I sure hope the North American WRX "wagons" get that as an option!
Bob
The image is a little rough around the edges, but it's all I could manage in the time I had.
-Ty
Thanks!
I actually like the grille [what I'm going to put in it aside]. It does set the B11S apart from ther others. First look will say "Subaru" instead of "350Z".
-Dave
I agree, the original grille definitely stands out in a crowd...but so does a Pontiac Aztek :-)
-Ty
Bob
Put a moonroof on those wagons! There is a definite pent-up demand, so they'd be wise to offer one. People are waiting for a styling change, too, so 2004 could potentially be the best sales year for Imprezas, ever.
tyguy: sorry to say, but you just removed all the character out of that B11S. Looks like a Z clone now.
Keep the grille. Never mind the hideous Aztec, this is the opposite, it's gorgeous. The Audi TT was a similar break through, and now all Audis look sharp. All of them. The whole lineup.
Subaru could do the same - build on the theme and have an entire lineup that is inspiring in its design.
-juice
If anyone feels up to it, can you put the grille on any of the current models? :-)
-juice
Please Subaru, no Edsel or Aztec disasters.
Heck, it doesn't resemble the 'feature' one bit.
-Dave
The failure with the Edsel had to do with a number of things, not just the grille. The main problem was Ford trying to market a new full-size brand (to compete with Pontiac/Oldsmobile and Dodge/DeSoto), when customers were starting to look towards small cars. The timing was all wrong.
Yes, the grille was a shocker, especially to those not accustomed to a radical-looking (for that era) automobile. The public today is much more used to "radical" designs. So, I don't see any comparison at all.
Bob
OTOH, the B11S' grille should not go on a production car the way it is IMO.
-Dennis
Sure, the Aztek bombed, but it's so different there's no point even bringing it up. The Baja bombed too, by the way.
The Avalanche and Element have been early hits. So daring styling can be a positive thing. Neither is nearly as sexy as the B11S, either, not even close.
I still say the B11S is Subaru's TT.
-juice
a. It's the focal point of the car and sets the B11S apart.
b. It's an in your face styling element that detracts from what would otherwise be a beautifully executed design.
-Frank P.
Bob
It's a corporate character. OK, maybe borrowed from Alfa a little, but Alfa is world-class in the styling department.
Right now what does the bug-eye WRX have to do with the boxy Forester? Nothing. Just the Subaru logo. No consitency whatsoever across the lineup.
-juice
In my mind, there is a big difference between new and cutting edge, and just plain ugly. It's mostly a matter of personal preference and viewpoint, of course, and Subaru will have to determine whose preference represents more purchasing power.
As for my personal choice, the B11S grille represents the "just plain ugly" side, and will steer me to other makes. I'm just one person, though. If the majority of their target market prefer that grille style, then it would make perfect sense for Subaru to take that direction and lose the shopping dollars of the minority who dislike it.
Bob
The grille itself is exaggerated for the concept and could never make production with that size (where would the front license plate go?). But I do see the A-shaped grille with the logo at the top becoming a cool corporate signature.
First time I saw the Audi TT, it was shocking. I joked you couldn't tell which direction it was going. But to this day it keeps growing on me. I'd even argue that it's the most copied vehicle in the last 2 decades. That is huge.
-juice
-Ty
Part of the whole 'concept' thing is to get a feel for public reaction. If SOA is indeed going to turn the page into a new era, they have to explore new designs, some of which may not appeal to everyone.
I like the B11S styling, it's refreshing especially from Subaru. I guess for now this is merely a concept, we'll have to wait & see where it goes.
-Brian (the other one)
Bob
In other words, you can't please everybody!
Style is subjective (duh). At a very basic level, everyone's looking for a car that they think reflects who they are (or want to be perceived as).
Style has no impact on my buying decisions. I'm a guy hung-up on the technical bits. I buy hardware, not character lines.
Bob
I don't recall seeing it? Is it new at the Geneva Show? To be honest, I really haven't looked very closely at other new cars from Geneva yet. I've been so caught up with this B11S, everything else sort of fell by the wayside...
Bob
Volvo has that diagonal line on all their grilles, too. Their better concepts integrate that look neatly into the styling.
-juice
Subaru is a Niche Player, they can't afford to conform to the standards of the auto-industry cause they'll get beat if they try to take on the big car makers even in looks alone.
-mike
http://www.autoweek.com/specials/2003_geneva/enjoy/index.htm
schnoz that everyone either loves or hates. I like the distinctiveness, but think it's just a wee bit too prominent. I've see some of the photoshop chops....my solution would be to shrink the centre section to about 75% of it's current size....I've actually done this on my computer at work.....I'll try to post it on imagstation next week. Seems to work well, though, and there's even room for a license plate now, below the "nose". Thus, the front end still retains it's distinctiveness, but looks even more attractive.
Bob
http://turbomirage.phpwebhosting.com/pics/wrx/kona/
Bob
Bob
I'm not sure I like the new fog lights on that RS. Or the surround, it could be better integrated.
The Forester in the same pic still keeps the RWL tires, if that's even a 2004 Forester.
Still no Baja Sports at Fitz.
-juice
As for the B11S, I like the distinctiveness of the new design. I feel it would definitely attract new people to the Subaru fold, just to check it out.
BTW, any other news on the Forester XT? One of my coworkers asks me every day if I heard anything new, after the initial press release. He is trying to find out if any prices have been announced yet.
Mark
-Frank P.
-Frank P.