But back to my point, the Outback overlaps too much with the current Legacy. Look how many people cross-shop them. The Legacy will get a turbo and appeal to the folks that want speed and handling.
The Outback should get more differentiation, and one way is to use the H6 exclusively, so no engines are offered on both models. Maybe even think about adding an H8 option, not turbos, leave those for the Legacy.
Look at the 4Runner, Grand Cherokee, Explorer. Look at the volume they do. We are talking TEN times the volume of every other mentioned combined, probably twenty.
Outback is the volume seller, go where the biggest target is. And keep people from cross-shopping the Legacy, like almost everyone does today (myself included).
But doesn't the Outback sell so well because of features AND price? Slapping the $$-H6 into every one of 'em isn't going to help maintain sales volume.
For folks who like the Outback "style," going from the OBS to the H6 is a big leap.
You get economies of scale if they were all H6s. The H6 cloth models still have auto climate control and lots of goodies you could delete, so prices could go lower.
Offer a true base model Outback without those things. Plus, it's supposed to move upscale. Do you want a higher price with the same 165hp H4?
Note that Legacy L/SE sales surged, and now Outback is no longer 2/3rds of total platform sales like it used to be. L/SE has filled that gap, so let the Outback go upscale, slightly.
the 1st generation (BC/BF)was imported to the states as a turbo in small numbers. Identifiable by a hood scoop, grill, and wheels. Oh and that badge. They can be built up pretty easily, but the wagons came in automatic only, so I have never really pursued it. I need the next car to be a wagon.
Sweet. So what about the stock 5-speed tranny allowed it to hold up to 300HP? I thought all Subaru 5-speed trannies were just permutations of the original designed for the 1.8 engine a looong time ago (I forgot who mentioned this - was it Colin?).
I'm going by information from people who have modified their engines. It's more of a guess than anything, because those trannies that failed were in different states of condition, I'm sure. The European and Japanese versions had over 200 hp with, I believe the same tranny, so... Also, notice that I do say that the tranny appears to be the weak link, capable of ~250 hp, it's the engine that is easily capable of 300 hp. True closed deck.
Cadillac is pushing its sedan lineup into the all-weather realm by adding all-wheel drive to its future sedans. Both the CTS and STS replacements will feature AWD, according to Cadillac executives at the launch of the brand's XLR roadster and SRX wagon in Phoenix last week. Cadillac hasn't given a time frame for the debut of the CTS replacement, but notes that all-wheel drive is becoming the standard for all luxury vehicles, even those in the compact class. The STS replacement is set to get AWD sometime after its launch late in 2004; however, Cadillac will skip the 2004 model year, finishing up the current front-drive STS with the 2003 model-year edition and launching the new rear-/all-wheel-drive car as a 2005 model.
isn't it 5/23 in Japan now. 'Bout time for the new Legacy debut, eh? Anyone got any pics or specs? I'll post here as soon as Paul Hansen chimes in over at nabisco. ;-)
Say what you will about the Acura-esque headlights or the sedan rear reminiscent of the last-gen Audi A4, the new Legacy looks fantastic! No question that it's the best-looking Subaru model to date. That goes for the interior as well. Looks ergonomically friendly and subdued sporty, not full of plood. I wonder what they'll do to "Outbackize" it.
I honestly didn't factor looks into the equation when I bought a Subaru, but this could sway those people who do. Nice job!
Ed
PS: I assume everyone caught the 5EAT with Sportshift and steering wheel controls?
I was pretty convinced the Volvo s60R would be my next car (once I could get it used at a decent price in a couple of years), but now that I see this, Subaru may be able to entice me back into the fold.
As long as I can get WRX performance numbers and a power driver's seat ...
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
That looks very promising! Looks like it will be here in the US next summer? Wonder what it will price out at? I did not notice any mention of the MT -5spd or 6?
is the grab handle (to close the door) on the door armrests.
The current Legacy/Outback door armrest is almost perfect, in the way the power window switches, armrest, and grab handle work. With the new Legacy, you now have a huge almost vertical grab handle which, when you have your arm on the armrest makes it impossible to operate the power window switches. It's an ergonomic disaster.
Several "premium" carmakers have don this in the past, and in each case, I've hated that feature.
Boo on this design change Subaru; otherwise it's a great car.
• It appears the 4EAT, with and without SportShift remains for non-turbo models. I hope "all" North American-spec models come with the 5EAT w/SportShift.
• No word yet on the 5-speed manual. Isn't this supposed to be an all-new more robust unit?
• The cruise control switch appears to be the same as that used on the STi, with the master switch at the end of the stalk. :-)
• The ignition key appears to have the door lock/unlock controls built into the key, as opposed to a separate key FOB.
• Wagons have a lever (switch?) by the rear hatch to lower rear seatbacks. This is a nice touch; both the Murano and Expedition have similar features.
"AnotherB4", one of Paul Hansen's cohorts at Apexjapan.com (and NASIOC), mentioned that the Legacy H-6 would be announced in September, and that the Outback/Lancaster would be announced in November.
Good call on the door handle Bob. They need to fix that!
I like the styling, kind of ablend of the current Legacy with cleaner lines and sharper edges, plus a dose of Audi in the back. Very appealing to me.
Interior looks great. Lots of cues from the STi and Forester, but clearly they take the themes much further upscale.
If SOA offers an H6 powered GT wagon, I'd seriously consider one to replace both my WRX and LL Bean (though I had planned to keep both cars a long time). Though I love the turbo-H4 in the WRX and was perfectly happy with my first H4 Outback, an upscale Legacy wagon needs the H6 to stay with the competition if you ask me (and note that more and more manufacturers are getting back to wagons these days, and AWD is not uncommon either). Give me a more agressive H6 (~250 HP) with those nice looking dual exhausts, and I'd have a hard time passing it up!
I think the point he was trying to make was, that, despite being the best-looking Legacy wagon ever, with a much-improved (on par with the competition) interior and, certainly, a technological tour-de-force, the Legacy redesign doesn't really push the envelope, design-wise. You've got the same basic silouette that Subaru's been doing since the Legacy's birth. Same traditional wagon format, seats 5, hump down the middle of the floor, same basic dash layout, same-old, same-old. In fact, all three of Subaru's wagons follow pretty much the same formula...the Impreza being a smallish 5 door hatch/wagon, the Forester being a more squared-off version of the Impreza theme, and the Legacy a slightly longer, wider, more tapered version of the Forester. Where's (and I know I'm going to get flack for this)the innovation? How about mounting the transmission lever on the dash, rally-style, freeing up some floorspace between the front seats? How about making the floor flat (such as the Civic's back seat) making it more comfortable for rear seat passengers? How about a slightly taller design for better ingress/egress. I guess we'll have to wait for the 7 passenger SUW for any real new ideas from Subaru. (However, the Pacifica's already beat it to market, with Ford's Crosstrainer/Freestyle to follow, and possible Mitsubishi's Grandis, Toyota's Wish and Honda's Latitude/Stream on their way as well.) Don't get me wrong, I love Subaru, think their AWD system is second-to-none and the same goes for their ride and handling. The new Legacy is a great car, but it's still just a more-stylish, nicer-interiored, more-perfected version of the old one.
Well, many of your suggested innovations are all but impossible on an AWD vehicle. You could mount the shifter on the dash, but it wouldn't open up any floor space because of the hump needed for the transaxle. Same for the rear floor. Taller? That's for the Outback. The Legacy is sportier; taller (aka higher center of gravity) is a sporty car's enemy. Why spend engineering dollars keeping weight down, keeping yaw moment down, and dropping the engine 22mm if you're going to obviate all that by raising the centerline of the car?
As for the article's "point" I got it. I just don't get how refining a proven design is a bad thing. It gives continuity and a sense of identity. You look and still see "Subaru", but it's like "Wow, look at that Subaru; it's gorgeous!" Rather than "What the heck is that car?!". The design is evolutionary rather than revolutionary; on that I think we can all agree. But that isn't inherently good or bad. In this case, it's an excellent evolution. But he wrote it as a negative: in spite of all the good things they did, it's just an evolution of what they had before. That's what I take exception to. Okay, rant over.
Perhaps I was being a little too hard on Subaru. After all, it IS a gorgeous looking wagon (& the sedan too, for that matter). And you can't argue with Subaru being content to improve on an already good thing. Perhaps they will differentiate the Outback a little more than they have done in the past. And some of those "innovations" I mentioned may well be saved for the upcoming 7 passenger SUW. BTW, the Highlander, Element&CR-V, Mitsubishi Grandis and Toyota Sienna are just a few of the vehicles I can come up with that have dash-mounted shifters, a flat floor and AWD......so it is possible.
Not sure I can add anything of merit to the discussion; I've already gone on record as saying the new Legacy is very attractive. I have to be honest, though, and say that exterior styling was not the deciding factor when I bought my Subaru. (Granted, I bought a Forester which is a very square car and unattractive to many.) Utility, handling, amenities (to some extent), value for money, and reputation for reliability were my prime movers.
Subaru has had its niche co-opted by many other makers below, in and above its price range. What are the Volvo XC and Audi allroad but really fancy versions of the Outback? Over the last couple of years that I've been posting here there have been many differing opinions as to where Subaru should go: upmarket, downmarket, more performance, greener, and so on. Whatever the case, Subaru shouldn't try to be all things to all people or they will end up satisfying no one.
I tend to agree with kenoka's view on refining an already proven concept. It worked for Porsche for many years until the coming of the apocalypse - I mean Cayenne.
Ed
PS: Having seen the Pacifica (actually a bunch of Pacificas on a car carrier) I have to ask what's the point? It's a minivan with a chopped top.
Pacifica: Shh, don't tell anyone that station wagons are back, call them "crossover vehicles" instead. AARG, $34,000 for a Chrysler wagon with cloth seats!
Cayenne, WOW! I had doubts about that one but one look at the wheels and tires tells you what that thing is all about. Looks like a techno tour-de-force with a Porsche price to match.
Legacy: Is the sunroof I saw in the picture of the wagon for real? Way cool. Like the upscale things like navigation. No the styling is not truly new but it is tastefull, sporty and still "Japanese" rather than a boring knock off of BMW or Benz (most Lexus models). If I can get the combo of some more interior room, luxury I don't have now (sunroof, heated leather seats,nav.) and a twin turbo for Colorado cruising then I may be trading the WRX wagon in in a year or two. TWRX
"BTW, the Highlander, Element&CR-V, Mitsubishi Grandis and Toyota Sienna are just a few of the vehicles I can come up with that have dash-mounted shifters, a flat floor and AWD......so it is possible."
I don't know about the Mitsubishi, but the others are primarily FWD-based vehicles with transverse engines. Since these vehicles have a transverse engine, the transmission is up front with the engine in an E-W layout (Subaru is N-S) and it doesn't make sense to have a transmission tunnel (no need). The front transaxle is already positioned (vertically) to deliver power to the front wheels, and it's just a matter of running a shaft to the rear that goes under the vehicle instead of thru a tunnel.
On the other hand, all of these vehicles have a much higher CG than typical Subarus, with similar or less ground clearance. So, there are disadvantages to a FWD/AWD layout with flat floors.
Is that weight correct? It went on a serious diet if it is. Under 3k lbs? Ours is something like 3300.
Innovation is nice and all, but remember, it's the mainstream that pays the bills, i.e. the Outback, not the Baja. The Legacy is a fine looking wagon, it's not meant to cross over into any other category.
Who knows? Perhaps the next Outback will.
I do think the Legacy look is "Japan Inc", just refined and modernized. I really like it. Saw a pic with the old one next to it, which is what we own, and I'll admit point blank that the new one makes the old one look downright old.
Speaking of Cayenee, there's a turbo in our garage at work. Peeved me like nothing else, I can't believe our mission is basically to end world poverty and this hypocrite owns one.
Since Subaru's engines and transmissions are sourced from Japan, I wonder if the MY 2004 (USA) models will receive any of the new engine/transmission hardware.
Is the width of the new car really as narrow as one poster states (68.1")? They really need to bump the width up by a couple inches over the current model to keep up with the competition. I know that widening the track is a lot more expensive to accomplish then lengthening is. Perhaps they just don't have the money to do it.
Subaru supposedly has an engine plant in Indiana but all the Legacies and Bajas still have stickers with Engine source = Japan. Not sure where those Indiana engines are going.
That width figure is for the Japanese spec. The current US spec is wider than the current Japanese spec so it's possible that the US spec with be wider.
Same goes for weight. That is JDM market weight. The USDM ones may or may not be heavier due to safety crash test requirements. I know the GTO which is a Holden Monaro Clone is significantly heavier due to more bracing in the hood, doors and trunk.
I guess, after seeing several Legacy redesigns plus a Forester and Impreza redesign, it really shouldn't be surprising that Subaru would stick with the tried and true. They HAVE made the new Legacy the most attractive yet, and will certainly be more than a match in the looks department for the Mazda6 wagon. I really like what they're doing in weight reduction (as opposed to Honda, whose vehicles seem to be getting heavier and heavier) which, coupled with improved aerodynamics should yield tangible improvements in performance, handling and fuel economy. Here are some Japanese e-mag links with more pix (and text, if anyone can translate it). There may well be a Subaru in my future yet.
Dave: the H6 is supposedly exclusively made in Indiana.
Good point, mike, about the weight difference in our market. I wonder how the curb weight will compare on a US model. The Forester lost 80 lbs, at least, so they can do it.
Comments
So even a turbo 6 was not deemed prestigious enough, imagine a turbo 4.
-juice
The Outback should get more differentiation, and one way is to use the H6 exclusively, so no engines are offered on both models. Maybe even think about adding an H8 option, not turbos, leave those for the Legacy.
Look at the 4Runner, Grand Cherokee, Explorer. Look at the volume they do. We are talking TEN times the volume of every other mentioned combined, probably twenty.
Outback is the volume seller, go where the biggest target is. And keep people from cross-shopping the Legacy, like almost everyone does today (myself included).
-juice
For folks who like the Outback "style," going from the OBS to the H6 is a big leap.
Offer a true base model Outback without those things. Plus, it's supposed to move upscale. Do you want a higher price with the same 165hp H4?
Note that Legacy L/SE sales surged, and now Outback is no longer 2/3rds of total platform sales like it used to be. L/SE has filled that gap, so let the Outback go upscale, slightly.
-juice
Two-tone paint no longer whispers of sophistication.
The Outback could be offered as a "value" edition with the 2.5L as an enty-level trim line, with all other models using the H6.
See Passat - how many choices - 1.8t,V6,W8
Audi - 1.8T, 2.7, 2.7t, 3.00 each with Quatro & without.
I always think this is the reason why they sold so many
it says Legacy Turbo 4wd....
i thought there was never a legacy turbo ? anybody ? even its grille looks body color as opposed to chrome grille.
http://www.thepearsonhome.com/subaru_legacy.htm
Jim
P.S. Juice will have to show you what the original wheels looked like.
Legacy: 2.5T standard, 2.5T(hot) for the GT
Outback: H6 for all OB models standard.
Engines:
2.5NA 165hp
2.5T 225hp
2.5T(hot) 300hp
H6 225hp
Sweet. So what about the stock 5-speed tranny allowed it to hold up to 300HP? I thought all Subaru 5-speed trannies were just permutations of the original designed for the 1.8 engine a looong time ago (I forgot who mentioned this - was it Colin?).
Ken
Jim
The six speed is bigger and heavier than the old five for more reasons than just that one extra cog!
-Colin
Cadillac is pushing its sedan lineup into the all-weather realm by adding all-wheel drive to its future sedans. Both the CTS and STS replacements will feature AWD, according to Cadillac executives at the launch of the brand's XLR roadster and SRX wagon in Phoenix last week. Cadillac hasn't given a time frame for the debut of the CTS replacement, but notes that all-wheel drive is becoming the standard for all luxury vehicles, even those in the compact class. The STS replacement is set to get AWD sometime after its launch late in 2004; however, Cadillac will skip the 2004 model year, finishing up the current front-drive STS with the 2003 model-year edition and launching the new rear-/all-wheel-drive car as a 2005 model.
-Ian
DaveM
To me, the Legacy is like the dark side of the force. Must resist. ;-)
Hmmm, I could lease the XT now for my dw's business, then when that's done (3 yrs), that blue B4 wagon will be waiting for me! 8)
-Brian
Here's a first look from the Nationl Post's "Drivers Edge":
http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/
Actually, the article is not there yet (it's in Friday's print edition) but should be posted online sometime today.
I honestly didn't factor looks into the equation when I bought a Subaru, but this could sway those people who do. Nice job!
Ed
PS: I assume everyone caught the 5EAT with Sportshift and steering wheel controls?
http://www.nationalpost.com/driversedge/
DaveM
-Dennis
As long as I can get WRX performance numbers and a power driver's seat ...
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Mark
I definetly can see one of those in my vehicle line-up. That GT wagon is just beautiful!
Now I'm confused as to what I want in my garage. Two Legacys? A Legacy and a WRX? A Legacy and a Forester XT?
Got lots of thinking and dreaming to do.
Ken
I definately would prefer that rich looking dark metallic blue of the 'new' Legacy. Yummy!
-Brian
The current Legacy/Outback door armrest is almost perfect, in the way the power window switches, armrest, and grab handle work. With the new Legacy, you now have a huge almost vertical grab handle which, when you have your arm on the armrest makes it impossible to operate the power window switches. It's an ergonomic disaster.
Several "premium" carmakers have don this in the past, and in each case, I've hated that feature.
Boo on this design change Subaru; otherwise it's a great car.
I'm guessing these are wagon specs:
Wheelbase: 105.1"
Length: 184.3"
Height:57.9"
Width: 68.1"
Curb Weight: 2,970 pounds
Not as large as I expected, especially the width.
Bob
• No word yet on the 5-speed manual. Isn't this supposed to be an all-new more robust unit?
• The cruise control switch appears to be the same as that used on the STi, with the master switch at the end of the stalk. :-)
• The ignition key appears to have the door lock/unlock controls built into the key, as opposed to a separate key FOB.
• Wagons have a lever (switch?) by the rear hatch to lower rear seatbacks. This is a nice touch; both the Murano and Expedition have similar features.
"AnotherB4", one of Paul Hansen's cohorts at Apexjapan.com (and NASIOC), mentioned that the Legacy H-6 would be announced in September, and that the Outback/Lancaster would be announced in November.
Bob
I like the styling, kind of ablend of the current Legacy with cleaner lines and sharper edges, plus a dose of Audi in the back. Very appealing to me.
Interior looks great. Lots of cues from the STi and Forester, but clearly they take the themes much further upscale.
If SOA offers an H6 powered GT wagon, I'd seriously consider one to replace both my WRX and LL Bean (though I had planned to keep both cars a long time). Though I love the turbo-H4 in the WRX and was perfectly happy with my first H4 Outback, an upscale Legacy wagon needs the H6 to stay with the competition if you ask me (and note that more and more manufacturers are getting back to wagons these days, and AWD is not uncommon either). Give me a more agressive H6 (~250 HP) with those nice looking dual exhausts, and I'd have a hard time passing it up!
Craig
As for the article's "point" I got it. I just don't get how refining a proven design is a bad thing. It gives continuity and a sense of identity. You look and still see "Subaru", but it's like "Wow, look at that Subaru; it's gorgeous!" Rather than "What the heck is that car?!". The design is evolutionary rather than revolutionary; on that I think we can all agree. But that isn't inherently good or bad. In this case, it's an excellent evolution. But he wrote it as a negative: in spite of all the good things they did, it's just an evolution of what they had before. That's what I take exception to. Okay, rant over.
Subaru has had its niche co-opted by many other makers below, in and above its price range. What are the Volvo XC and Audi allroad but really fancy versions of the Outback? Over the last couple of years that I've been posting here there have been many differing opinions as to where Subaru should go: upmarket, downmarket, more performance, greener, and so on. Whatever the case, Subaru shouldn't try to be all things to all people or they will end up satisfying no one.
I tend to agree with kenoka's view on refining an already proven concept. It worked for Porsche for many years until the coming of the apocalypse - I mean Cayenne.
Ed
PS: Having seen the Pacifica (actually a bunch of Pacificas on a car carrier) I have to ask what's the point? It's a minivan with a chopped top.
I sat in one at a dealer recently. The rear seat is strictly for kids. It won't seat 7 adults comfortably, like a true minivan will.
Cayanne-
I saw two this weekend while I was in NH. I also saw two Bajas there.
Bob
Cheers Pat.
Cayenne, WOW! I had doubts about that one but one look at the wheels and tires tells you what that thing is all about. Looks like a techno tour-de-force with a Porsche price to match.
Legacy: Is the sunroof I saw in the picture of the wagon for real? Way cool. Like the upscale things like navigation. No the styling is not truly new but it is tastefull, sporty and still "Japanese" rather than a boring knock off of BMW or Benz (most Lexus models). If I can get the combo of some more interior room, luxury I don't have now (sunroof, heated leather seats,nav.) and a twin turbo for Colorado cruising then I may be trading the WRX wagon in in a year or two.
TWRX
I don't know about the Mitsubishi, but the others are primarily FWD-based vehicles with transverse engines. Since these vehicles have a transverse engine, the transmission is up front with the engine in an E-W layout (Subaru is N-S) and it doesn't make sense to have a transmission tunnel (no need). The front transaxle is already positioned (vertically) to deliver power to the front wheels, and it's just a matter of running a shaft to the rear that goes under the vehicle instead of thru a tunnel.
On the other hand, all of these vehicles have a much higher CG than typical Subarus, with similar or less ground clearance. So, there are disadvantages to a FWD/AWD layout with flat floors.
Craig
Innovation is nice and all, but remember, it's the mainstream that pays the bills, i.e. the Outback, not the Baja. The Legacy is a fine looking wagon, it's not meant to cross over into any other category.
Who knows? Perhaps the next Outback will.
I do think the Legacy look is "Japan Inc", just refined and modernized. I really like it. Saw a pic with the old one next to it, which is what we own, and I'll admit point blank that the new one makes the old one look downright old.
Speaking of Cayenee, there's a turbo in our garage at work. Peeved me like nothing else, I can't believe our mission is basically to end world poverty and this hypocrite owns one.
-juice
Is the width of the new car really as narrow as one poster states (68.1")? They really need to bump the width up by a couple inches over the current model to keep up with the competition. I know that widening the track is a lot more expensive to accomplish then lengthening is. Perhaps they just don't have the money to do it.
That width figure is for the Japanese spec. The current US spec is wider than the current Japanese spec so it's possible that the US spec with be wider.
DaveM
-mike
There may well be a Subaru in my future yet.
http://car.nifty.com/as/column/car_2/article_0305234164_1.htm
http://www.carview.co.jp/close_up/legacy/index.asp?OrgPoint=shinc- haku
http://www.motormagazinesha.co.jp/medialog/hotmenu/whatsnew/2003_- 05/030526/index.html
BTW, I agree about the Pacifica....
overweight, overpriced, squashed Caravan.
Good point, mike, about the weight difference in our market. I wonder how the curb weight will compare on a US model. The Forester lost 80 lbs, at least, so they can do it.
-juice
DaveM
I bet there are a lot of Expeditions, Grand Cherokees, etc. in your parking garage too. Perhaps even some Range Rovers, & Navigators too.
Bob