Subaru Crew - Future Models II

samiam_68

Minivan sales are on a downward slope, why would Subaru bring a minivan to the U.S.? It's a very crowded market already, and some automakers are exiting the minivan game completely.

rsholland

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/205057/subaru_impreza.html

Info and illustrations are coming hot-and-heavy now. While they're all a bit different from one another, they all share a common theme. So we're close here folks...

Bob

dino001

Wow - I may actually stay with Impreza, after all.

Very much A3ish, which is a good thing to me (always liked their styling, just not prices and reliability). I originally planned to move up, but with Legacy Wagon gone completely and no larger hatch wagon with manual in sight other than Mazda (which I bet will go too when new one arrives) and overpriced and unreliable Germans/Swedes, I may stay with that one. Let us pray they don't decide to bring sedan only.

rsholland

The A3 and VW Golf were target vehicles for the new Impreza to go after.

The most important thing I'm seeing from these illustrations and/or pre-production not-yet-final images is that the new Impreza has finally shed the awkward body proportions that have cursed the current model from day one. You can always tweak details like the grille, bumpers, wheels, etc.; but you can't easily change a clumsy body shape without getting into drastic engineering costs.

Bob

ateixeira

They're so similar that they must be close to the real deal.

Happily, these sketches look much better than the old one, the Suzuki Reno clone.

The D-pillar looks like the Hyundai Tucson, on a smaller scale. Looks nice. I see some A3 and Mazda3 influence. The grille is very Mazda-ish, so I'll be surprised if it ends up looking just like that.

-juice

ateixeira

I'd say it depends. If they make the Tribeca a bit bigger with this refresh, maybe not. But right now they don't really address the needs of a family bigger than 5 people.

They really don't have a people mover. All their models tend towards the smaller side of each class they compete in. The Forester is smaller than the RAV4 and CR-V. The Legacy is smaller than the Accord and Camry. The Tribeca is smaller than the Pilot and Outlook.

How 'bout a large car? Or even a big mid-sizer?

-juice

dino001

How 'bout a large car? Or even a big mid-sizer?

Something like (much) cheaper version of Lexus GS AWD?

nickel

That's crazy. On 3,100 pounds? That's insane. My insurance is like 1,100/year on my OB. That car is going to cost me like 5,000 a year.

dino001

430 Nm is 317 lb-ft, which is a lot. But that will be on STI. I bet WRX/OB/Legacy numbers will be more sane.

jay_24

I'd say it depends. If they make the Tribeca a bit bigger with this refresh, maybe not. But right now they don't really address the needs of a family bigger than 5 people.

I'm not sure they have made one that addresses the family of 5 yet. Three kids in the second row of any Subaru is tight, if the trip is more than across town. (think: "He touched me!") With the third row in use the Tibeca has very limited storage space.

Subaru needs something in the Pilot/Outlook size, or at least closer to it. It doesn't have to be a van.

--jay

nickel

You're right. But maybe SOA should consider 430 lb/ft. Only a joke!

ateixeira

I'm sure paisan would be pleased. Probably call it "adequate".

-juice

paisan

Yeah 430ft-lbs would be adequet. I'm slowly spreading my cars out...

Legacy 190ft-lbs
Armada 385ft-lbs
GTO 400ft-lbs

Big gap between 190->385

-mike

once_for_all

Hi Bob, more fodder for your blogs.

http://www.subdriven.com/news/publish/Subaru_News/article_483.shtml

Did your read that part about "as compact as its petrol counterparts"? That is very significant.

John

rsholland

Thanks John, but I'm way ahead of you here, as I published that Subie diesel news back in September...

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/1549

Bob

c_hunter

Mike, so you got the GTO? Any pics?

paisan

Not yet, end of month. Still deciding between Cyclone Grey, Spice Red, and Quicksilver.

-mike

once_for_all

Bob, that is true and I remember reading it.

But the first posting didn't indicate that the engine could simply drop into any of the gas version engine bays, and I remember a lot of discussion regarding how wide this new engine would be and how none of the current chassis would work.

Anyway I thought it was significant.

John

once_for_all

Bob, that is true and I remember reading it.

But the first posting didn't indicate that the engine could simply drop into any of the gas version engine bays, and I remember a lot of discussion regarding how wide this new engine would be and how none of the current chassis would work.

Anyway I thought it was significant.

John

once_for_all

Bob, that is true and I remember reading it.

But the first posting didn't indicate that the engine could simply drop into any of the gas version engine bays, and I remember a lot of discussion regarding how wide this new engine would be and how none of the current chassis would work.

Anyway I thought it was significant.

John

once_for_all

Bob, that is true and I remember reading it.

But the first posting didn't indicate that the engine could simply drop into any of the gas version engine bays, and I remember a lot of discussion regarding how wide this new engine would be and how none of the current chassis would work.

Anyway I thought it was significant.

John

once_for_all

Bob, that's true but no indication back then that this new diesel boxer could simply drop in to any existing gas engine bay.

John

ateixeira

Saw an arrest-me-Red one in the garage today. A bit flashy but bold and unapologetic.

-juice

jay_24

Really signifiacnt given the 4 repeat posts :P

But at roughly $.40+ a gallon more than unleaded it would need to get 50mpg or better to be worth the extra money. Diesel engines tend to be roughly 20% more up front and you have the likes of Civics and Corrolas pushing 40mpg on cheaper fuel. I believe the diesel jetta has fallen from popularity because it no longer gets the near 50mpg it once did.

So why diesel?

(fyi: average diesel cost in Minneapolis is $2.50 and unleaded is $2.10)

paisan

Weird, cause Diesel here in NY/NJ is cheaper than unleaded.

Oh and Diesel engines run forever, I think they go about 300k as a "base" and usually last 500k w/o issue.

Also as more and more diesel cars come out the price will come down, not to mention you can run home heating oil in them

-mike

once_for_all

sorry all for the repeated posts I didn't get any indication that anything was working.

Echo what Mike says, in addition to the engines lasting longer, they do not have plugs, coil packs, and other routine maintenance items. They generally use timing chains too, as opposed to belts.

I would go for it in a heartbeat. The engines simply develop more driver friendly power and are far more efficient.

John

saedave

Recent news about gelling problems in cold weather with the new low sulphur diesel fuel should make us wary. As a past owner of a turbo diesel that I had to let idle in the garage at below zero temperatures to prevent gelling, no diesel is of interest.

Perhaps it is obvious I live in Chicago.

ateixeira

Actually, demand for the VW TDI models outstrips supply. VW could make them for MY2006, but not MY2007, because it didn't meet emissions standards.

Basically they planned poorly, and should have built a lot more of them. They build most of them for Europe.

They may bring it back in 08 if they can sort it out, but it would cost more.

Generally speaking, a turbo diesel can be about 40% more fuel efficient than gas, though that number may be a little optimistic. Perhaps because VW's gas engines, the 2.slow and the new 2.5l, were never very good at economy.

Around here, gas is $2.20 and diesel is $2.60, so again a big markup in price. It costs more than even premium fuel does.

So the fuel costs 18% more, at least right here and now. That means a Subie diesel should be at least 18% more fuel efficient, just to break even. Any additional savings have to offset the extra cost of the turbodiesel powertrain.

-juice

ateixeira

Spoke to a dealership employee buddy of mine, and he said they expect the new Tribeca to have a 3.4l engine, so there's yet another rumor. Interestinly, he said it would run on regular gas, and that seems to be the one consistent theme with all the rumors, so I think we can count on that.

April 6 for the NY show opening, can't wait. It'll be a big decision day for me. If the 08 Tribeca is a big improvement, I'll probably wait, and go the VIP program route.

If not, I'll be looking at a CPO '06, at least if SoA will agree to accept Subaru Bucks for those purchases. I have $1000 saved up, and I've seen some 06s for $24,888 well equipped.

If that stalls, I'll probably compare the Sienna vs. the Entourage.

-juice

rsholland

3.4? I think he's got wrong, as the 3.6 has been confirmed by a number or sources.

Bob

ateixeira

That's what I thought, too.

At least the regular fuel issue is addressed. Fair or not, it may not make sense, but that was a sore spot with more than a few customers.

-juice

paisan

I'm hearing 3.6 from several sources as well.

-mike

fenris2

>> They may bring it back in 08, if they can sort it out, but it would cost more.

No clue on costs, but they are bringing a new CR 2.0 diesel Jetta in '08 and a Rabbit sometime after.

>> So the fuel costs 18% more

Also depends on if it bioD friendly, which it may not be, depenending on how the BioD is dried in the finishing stage and the new polution controls. That could slightly or greatly reduce costs depending on the area you live in

There are pluses however

1) What about in Subbies that take premium? Then the cost gap closes

2) Diesels tend to break in around 25k miles or so, expect a bit better mileage.

3) Reduced foreign oil demand

4) Easy to tune for 'the big power', genreally safely and cheaply.

5) Its the package deal. Sure a corolla is 40mpg or so. And the fun factor is??? Now how about a diesel legacy? Near Legacy GT performace (in passing, probably not 0-60 though as from the sounds of it it is single turbo) with Corolla mileage and 4wd. Ahhh...

ateixeira

Well, to be fair, the only Subies that take premium perform well beyond what a TDI could do. So engines with comparable performance would not need premium fuel.

You do get less maintenance, i.e. no tune-ups, but VW has had enough reliability issues (including the TDI) that realistically it will probably not cost you less.

#3 is spot-on.

#4, maybe, really depends on the quality of the tuner you seek.

Bottom line - will a diesel make a car more fun? Here I'd have to say no. More practical, better torque for every-day RPMs, sure, but not more fun.

However, let's see Subaru have at it. Theirs could end up more reliable, more efficient, and better executed. I look forward to testing one.

-juice

dino001

Diesel engines are popular overseas not because they are "fun", but because of fuel pricing. At 5-7 bucks a gallon every drop starts to count. Modern turbodiesel gets a decent performance in every day driving, i.e. safe passing acceleration and merging with 20-30% improved fuel economy at the same torque level (lower hp).

But it's far from fun: I drove one (my father in the old country used to have Peugeot, which was considered one of the best small-displacement diesel engine in late 90s/low 00s), so I know. Short torque curve makes their behavior similar to those maligned GMs pushrods, but even worse. The torque is there, but at the time you think you are just beginning to enjoy yourself, it runs out of breath. And those morning starts :lemon: - even the best ones like Benz or Peugeot.

But by all means - the boxer turbodiesel would be a great addition to the lineup. I might even consider it, as it is a great option for daily driver/commuter. It may also provide very decent long-trip experience, as long as one stays "not involved" with their driving. But given a choice between Legacy GT and any diesel with similar torque, I would not think twice, as long as gas is below $4.0/gal :shades:

ateixeira

I haven't driven the latest Bluetec diesel from Mercedes, but the one just prior to that had some turbo lag and a bit of an on/off throttle, i.e. not very linear power delivery.

It was quite fast once it got going, though.

Any how, nice thing about diesel is it costs less and requires less energy to refine. Taxes in this country just kill it, at least in some places.

Go to Brazil, and diesel costs barely more than HALF the price of gas, and still well below Ethanol, even though the Brazilian government gives heavy subsidies to help out the sugar cane farmers. There, diesel is a no-brainer choice, though they're behind on the low-sulfur stuff.

-juice

qbrozen

But it's far from fun

maybe in that example, but I have read from more than one source that the bimmer diesel 3-series, for example, is quite fun.

dino001

I guess it all depends on the expectations. I'm sure bimmer diesel is "quite" fun, but compared to comparable gasoline bimmer with torque... well. :P

qbrozen

yeah, i don't know the exact numbers on the bimmer ... however, if you consider a benz E350 "fun" then the diesel version would be just as fun since their performance is just about an equal match. SO... if by some chance the same holds true for the bimmer ....

I just didn't bring up the benz originally because most people wouldn't consider an E-class "fun."

ateixeira

They generally compare a diesel engine to a base gas engine, not the better ones. I'm sure the 335i would cream the diesel Bimmer. Same for the VW 2.0FSI vs. the TDI.

One reason VW's TDI is so well regarded is that, let's face it, their base engines are crap: 2.slow and the "half a Lambo engine!" 2.5 are not very competitive, so the TDI looks better than it really is.

-juice

qbrozen

yeah, its all going to depend on the setup, size, etc.

The benz is definitely an impressive engine, IMHO.

paisan

I believe last year Audi ran a diesel road race car! I remember it doing quite well.

-mike

dino001

Diesel, while not having very ligthtning fast acceleration, was able to sweep Le Mans and Sebring by lower fuel demand. Similar top speed, long curves, lower fuel demand = fewer pit stops or lower total mass = win in long run.

ateixeira

That's an incredible racing engine, but I'm not sure how much that translates in to road-going diesels. It's more of a display of diesel technology capabilities, I'd say.

-juice

fenris2

>> But by all means - the boxer turbodiesel would be a great addition to the lineup. I might even consider it, as it is a great option for daily driver/commuter. It may also provide very decent long-trip experience, as long as one stays "not involved" with their driving. But given a choice between Legacy GT and any diesel with similar torque

Ahh, but liter per liter the diesel will have more torque, usually much, more. The issue is mass, as diesels internals tend to be tough and heavy, and thus slower and lower reving... usually.

fastest piston engined truck? A diesel...

car wise on on this side of the pond
e320cdi 50-70 4.8 27 mpg highway
e320 gaser 50-70 5.3 37 mpg highway
e550 50-70 ?? 23 mpg

?? obviously better than the 320cdi, but can't find the numbers... ;-(

And of course the bimmers 535D is even quicker and at least in reviews is preferd to the gass v8 version... but we don't get the good stuff here yet.

Sure, a Subbie diesel may not be a GT from 0-60, but I bet the 180 hp version they alude to will be plenty fun, and probalby dang close on the highway passing and so on. Or so I hope.

You can design a peformance diesel if you wish, or turn a non-performace one into more of one, usually pretty easily. Generally injector swap and ecu map will do 'er up right as many VW tdi owners do. No practicle octane issues with diesel too, which I can not say the same for when looking at how high strung gas engines need race gas and so on.

ateixeira

Did you reverse the mpg figures? The gas model gets 10mpg better?

-juice

dino001

I guess what bothers me in diesels is their sound and short torque curve with quick drop at top revs, i.e. you get above the revs, you're done with the power. For me more annoying than turbolag on gas. I never enjoyed those large-displacement lazy pushrods - diesel only amplifies that effect. Just a personal preference.

When they come, we shall see.

alpha01

It sounds like you're still feeling the lingering effects of the General's disatrous "Olds" 5.7L diesel. Driving the newer offerings may well change your mind, lots has changed.... I agree with you... .we shall indeed see.

~alpha

dino001

No, I haven't been in this country at that time, yet. My diesel memories are late 90s/00s Benz, VW and Peugeots back from my old country.

There is no doubt that siesels did go long way, indeed and the technology has been perfected and many problems were worked out. The noise in reduced, torque curve is way better than it used to be, but anybody who says they are "as good" as advanced gasoline-powered DOHC in terms of overall work "culture" (performance, "ear aesthetics", etc.), is fooling themselves, IMHO.

Diesels got so popular in Europe at the first place not because they were so wonderful, but when you live with a voracious government ready to take your last penny for their pet projects (and no one is a better target than drivers - believe me), you'll do whatever it takes to outsmart the beast and keep some money in the pockets (yes - 70-90 percent of fuel price there is taxes, customs and other government fees, not real cost of the production).

Diesel fuel used to be 30% cheaper than gas and combined with diesel mileage is 30%+ better, which used to compound to over 50% savings on operating cost - very few people could resist that regardless of the drawbacks. Even with upfront cost penalty, it still meant decent savings especially for those who drove a lot.

Today diesel fuel is there about the same price as gas and the trend is slowly reversing itself, as cost penalty appears to be similar or even larger than hybrids here and savings are substantially smaller than they used to be. A lot of diesel owners start to admit that it might not have been worth the penalty anymore, unless someone is driving zillions of miles (there - kilometers of course).

It is generally good thing that alternatives are on the way, as diversification always leads to better competition, but I'm afraid America is way too late for the diesel party. Unless, of course, they introduce diesel hybrids with real 60 mpg, not "phantom-EPA" and the upfront cost is not outrageus - then the benefit may be real.

paisan

Those are only on ones with mechanical fuel injection. The ones with EFI are as quiet as a gas engine.

-mike