Subaru Crew - Future Models II

rsholland

http://www.subarulegacy.ca/english.htm

...And yes Canada—not us, still has a Legacy wagon.

Bob

ateixeira

Say what you want but I tend to like the plood Subaru uses. It's much warmer than the pluminum, i.e. silver painted plastic, they use.

-juice

rsholland

...the Canadian spec.B, and most likely the US version too, don't get the sexy JDM spec. B grille.

Bob

dino001

ateixeira

Don't tell me they dumped the black/blue seats? That looks too much like a plain GT now.

-juice

mayberryguy

Don't tell me they dumped the black/blue seats? That looks too much like a plain GT now.

Yes, the '08 Spec-B will have the Black Leather with Black Alcantera Inserts. I like the Black/Blue better.

ateixeira

At least is has the grippy inserts. That's a bummer, though, I really thought the blue set off the interior and made it look special.

-juice

rsholland

Well, I preferred the brick-red leather that was offered the first year.

Bob

paisan

Ugh, that first year Red was way too, bling/gangsta looking if you ask me. I wouldn't have bought it at any price!

-mike

ateixeira

It looked bad in photos, but in the flesh it was a nice, subdued dark red.

-juice

rsholland

That dark red was used on Jaguars, Porsches and any number of great sports cars for years. I thought it was very classy looking.

Bob

paisan

I've seen it in the flesh, nasty nasty stuff, probably why there are still some of the original 500 still sitting on dealer lots.....

-mike

paisan

Jags, Porsches, and great sports cars can get away with it, a Subaru Sedan can't. Similar to why an expensive Subaru like the SVX, Tribecca, etc. don't sell terribly well.

-mike

jeffmc

"Say what you want but I tend to like the plood Subaru uses. It's much warmer than the pluminum, i.e. silver painted plastic, they use."

I really liked the flat-finished "plood" that was in the '06s... not so much on the high-gloss lacquered finish prior and current.

For the record, I liked the brick red seats, too. They warmed up the otherwise too-dark interior without being too garish. I thought the red was very "earthy" in person. Very rich & inviting... much nicer than the red leather Nissan tried recently. But hey, I didn't buy a Spec B, so my vote didn't count.

ateixeira

I think it was the $35k price tag, mike.

Around here they sold out, and the 07s sold out, too, even though they're no longer limited production.

-juice

bblacha

It appears some existing Subie owners are given a chance to influence future model directions. Check your email for a JD Powers survey. I just completed it and it included questions about how I feel about all/front/rear-wheel drive, diesel/ethanol/hybrid powertrains, etc.

If they listen to my survey answers, there will be a diesel rear-wheel drive larger subie

rsholland

I'm all for the diesel—but not in any way for a RWD Subie. Nope. Never want to see that happen—EVER!

Bob

subearu

Yep, I got the same survey and answered negatively on the RWD/FWD questions.

-Brian

paisan

I'd take RWD over FWD though.

-mike

subearu

I would as well. But their questions were geared toward Subaru offering one or the other respectively.

-Brian

bblacha

Interesting.

My affinity to Subaru is as a poor-man's approximation of rear-wheel drive (can't afford a BMW.) I wondered if many others feel that way, guess not.

What's fascinating though is that Subaru really is trying to make informed decisions and consider various options, otherwise they wouldn't be hiring JD Powers. New leadership at work... we'll see.

aaykay

The main selling point of Subarus is the AWD. Anything else (RWD,FWD) will invalidate their message.

rsholland

Exactly. Subaru's core DNA is AWD. Subaru is one of the very few truly unique car brands out there, due entirely to the fact that it's 100% AWD (except in Japan where a few bottom-feeder FWD models are offered), and the boxer engine. Lose any of these two items and just becomes another ordinary car brand.

Bob

c_hunter

I don't think Subaru will ever get away from the boxer and symmetrical AWD layout in a significant way because they have so much experience with it and it is highly matured at this point. They sure could use an infusion of DNA in other departments though, specifically packaging and overall layout.

Unfortunately, I have always felt that most shoppers (outside the core Subaru devotee) don't even appreciate/understand the unique aspect of Subaru or its DNA. Those shoppers may already see it as another ordinary brand! Look at how often Subarus are cross shopped with Honda "part-time AWD" products that have a rather ordinary FWD-based transverse engine layout that is not nearly as mechanically efficient or compact as the boxer and symmetrical AWD. In a lot of cases, Subaru loses out on aspects like passenger room and comfort despite the arguably better powertrain DNA.

Craig

rsholland

Agreed Craig, but I think that's a failure of Subaru marketing, and not the car.

Bob

c_hunter

It may be an issue that goes beyond Subaru marketing -- the customers have to want/care about certain aspects before they will even seek out or respond to marketing. It may be like people who only want a V6, despite the fact that a different engine (or different V6 from another maker) is adequate or better. Any unique aspects of a vehicle that delve into the mechanicals are bound to appeal to a very limited subset of shoppers and enthusiasts. And AWD, as complex as it is, probably only gets attention and true understanding from a very small subset at that. I think Subaru is banking a lot of their appeal on a very complex/focused set of DNA.

paisan

I agree, that most consumers don't care if it has a boxer nor what kind of AWD it has. All they care about is how many cylinders, milage and the fact that it has AWD. I think that a larger car with an H6 or H8 would go a long way to have folks come over to the brand, if they could get a car slightly larger than a camary or accord with equal or more power and awd....

-mike

subearu

I guess I can see where Subaru is going with the survey though. Every other manufacturer is crowding Subaru's AWD space and Subaru is just trying to examine if there are other possibilities (non AWD) out there for them. But, I agree, other than us Subaru nuts, everyone cares about traction, mpg, and power.

Something the size of a Holden Commodore with AWD would be nice

-Brian

paisan

Yes a commodore w/AWD would be nice. I believe the last gen (maybe this one too) has AWD available on the AT models.

-mike

ateixeira

Logic doesn't apply here, when Subaru discontinued FWD models their sales went up. Skyrocketed, actually, to more than twice the sales levels they had when FWD was available.

Look at Audi - the number one reason they don't truly get respect from Benz/BMW buyers is that they offer too many FWD models.

As for a RWD Subaru, only if it's a micro car with a rear-mounted engine would it get my blessing.

-juice

aaykay

I like the small wagon look with roof-rails. Similar to the current Impreza. And the Audis, Volvos and other premium makes.

None of the new Impreza images seem to have roof-rails.

rsholland

http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2375

Bob

ateixeira

I got on-line with AN at our library and read the last 4 articles about Subaru. The first about the 4 cylinder diesel for Europe, then a couple about the new Tribeca and finally this one about a new direction.

I'm not crazy about the shift away from engineering, but they'll only argue it didn't work as well as planned.

The 3.6l and more conservative styling should help the Tribeca. The Legacy and Outback are fine as is. The Impreza is selling well despite its age, so hopefully the new one will do as well.

The Forester is the one most in need of an update, it's really aged next to its newer competition, and may be the last one in its class to make stability control standard on the lineup. Sadly ABS was made standard way back in 1998, so they've had a decade to work on VDC.

-juice

ateixeira

Basically:

* 3.6l engine running on regular fuel
* improved access to the 2nd and 3rd rows
* better visibility (how?)
* revised sheetmetal/styling

#2 and #3 are what I'm curious about.

The rear door is already big, so I'm not sure what they plan to change. Maybe a simpler folding mechanism for the seats? I didn't find it hard now.

Better visibility? I wonder if they'll make the rear glass bigger, perhaps dip down lower, or change the D-pillar? That would make it a lot more than just a face-lift. Rarely does a profile of a vehicle change in such a short time, it's usually just a new bumper/grille and rear tailgate. If they change the D-pillar I'll be surprised.

We'll see. Any spy shots? This thing is supposed to be in dealers in April, so we should start seeing them soon.

-juice

rblnr

Depending on what a turn away from the engineering focus means, this might be kind of a shame. I think it was more of a failure of marketing and advertising vs. the cars themselves. The Legacy sedan, for ex., is a great car to drive, was recognized as the safest car on the road, yet engenders little awareness by the public.

ateixeira

That's because the Outback steals all the attention (and sales). Less so than before, but it still gets most of the sales. Killing the Legacy wagon will only reinforce that advantage.

-juice

c_hunter

I think the Leg/OB are fine if you think the current cars are OK. But compared to competitors, they are small on the inside and the overall layout and packaging could be better.

ateixeira

They'll grow gradually. Sales aren't hurting.

-juice

jeffmc

Legacy/Outback sales in the US were down 4% in 2006. 84,442 vs. 87,788 in 2005. Maybe the '08 refresh will be enough to keep the interest up 'til the next model change... 2010 MY seems a long ways off, though, assuming they keep up the 5-year cycle. I think they'll need to introduce an STI Legacy and/or Outback to keep any sort of "buzz" going about the model.

robr2

I'm not crazy about the shift away from engineering, but they'll only argue it didn't work as well as planned.

My post over on the blog:

The problem with being engineering focused instead of customer focused is that nobody will buy your products if you don't focus on the customer.

Now if you take an engineering focus to customer demands and make what they want - that's great. But if you take an engineering focus for the sake of engineering, that's not great.

An example - my company imports a product for sale in North American. Our Austrian/German supplier made a change in the product that was beautifully engineered. It improved the installation process and was heavy duty. Problem is that nobody asked for or cared about it. There was nothing wrong with the old method. It added 5% to the cost of the product which translates to a 35% increase at retail. It caused us to have to change our packaging, installation instructions, processes, and web site.

All because engineering took precendence over what the customer wanted.

sweet_subie

let us not just look at the #s. by looking at #s, subaru has not done so bad.

it is the customer cash back, 0% etc hitting their profitability like crazy. I bought my OB XT for 5-6k discount, i think this is hurting them the most.

i saw tribecas selling for 6-7k discount

robr2

If you have to sell vehicles at those types of discounts, there is a problem with what the product offered and the price it is being offered at.

Why doesn't Honda or Toyota or Nissan have to offer those types of incentives? Because the consumer wants their products. Why does the consumer want their products? Because those manufacturers are customer focused and then engineer to that customer focus.

ateixeira

I would say that Honda and Toyota and Nissan DO offer incentives like that.

I'm cross-shopping the 07 Sienna and they already have a $500 rebate plus they're selling for less than invoice.

This is an updated model that just got a brand new engine last month!

$5071 off list price for a loaded one.

Same dealer's biggest discount on a loaded Tribeca is $4822.

And get this - the rebate is $1000 in other parts of the country. So there's another $500 discount.

This is just a market reality, for Subaru and even for Toyota's just-updated Sienna. It's a buyer's market.

-juice

c_hunter

You have to look at the whole model lineup really. It's inevitable that some models sell slow and get discounted, but there are others that are in demand and hold the line on price (I see that with Honda and Acura, for instance). In Subaru's case, it seems like almost the entire model lineup is heavily discounted right now for buyers that are savvy enough to know. This is not unlike the situation Ford, GM, and Chrysler are in most of the time.

I imagine the new Impreza will hold the pricing line for a while if it's a good vehicle. The new Tribeca will probably be in the middle, since they are trying to make up for lackluster sales on the older models -- I don't see that commanding MSRP very long, if at all, but don't expect it to hit invoice too quickly.

ateixeira

The RD-X is selling near invoice, right? I bet the MDX is closer to list, though, given how many of them I've seen around. They came out later yet I see twice as many.

When the Tribeca came out, prices started at about $29k, street price. They haven't dipped below $27k, and the 2007 base model is de-contented (no moonroof, about an $800 price drop right there). So prices really haven't dropped all that much in the past 2 years.

The lease prices have actually gone up, from $299 to $329 for starters.

The Acadia already has a $1000 rebate, and it just came out.

The brand-new Edge has a $500 rebate, IIRC.

To be honest I think the auto makers build a cushion in the price for rebates. So they're not really getting any less money than they expected in the first place.

-juice

dino001

I would say $500-$1000 rebates probably don't hurt the manufacturers at all. They may be a blessing-curse deals for dealers, as they increase their "room" (more money from suckers), but the informed buyer would take them as a sign of weakness of the model and demand invoice-type of deals.

You are probably right - a lot the sticker prices appear to be inflated well above what the cars are really worth in terms of value. It becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy: manufacturer expects they would have to place incentives, so they inflate the sticker, but because the sticker is inflated, potential buyer don't want to hear about selling at that price so incentives become necessary.

c_hunter

The RD-X is selling near invoice, right? I bet the MDX is closer to list, though, given how many of them I've seen around. They came out later yet I see twice as many.

Yeah, that is exactly one of the situations I can think of -- MDX is hot and in short supply in some areas (waiting list in my area), while the RDXs are in low demand and stagnating on the lots. People are going under invoice on the RDX but lucky to get a few hundred off MSRP on the MDX, if that.

ateixeira

I was surprised, too, because most MDX are in the $40s, right?

-juice

zman3

All of them. The least expensive is $40,XXX IIRC.

robr2

I would say that Honda and Toyota and Nissan DO offer incentives like that.

All manufacturers offer rebates and incentives. The difference is in the amount and frequency. Honda doesn't scream it out - the do it quietly and not on every model. Toyota screams a little but they don't have to resort to rebates everyday to push the metal.

Subaru is offering rebates on everything except the Impreza and do it all the time.

Subaru makes good vehicles. They make vehicles with great driving dynamics. But they don't make vehicles that the mass market wants. If they want to grow, they have to offer what the mass market wants.