Subaru Crew - Future Models II

1subydown1togo

Yep

rsholland

I don't buy that. Why should I (or anyone else) be punished for things our forefathers did. This "reparations" issue is a very slippery slope to go down. While I can understand how you may feel that you or your family are owed something for past wrongs, all it does for people like myself (who didn't do anything wrong) is breed resentment.

Now, can we get back to Subies, or at least something car related?

Bob

paisan

Exactly how I feel about the whole reparations thing. I never held *your* people down, why shou *I* pay? Anyway I'd like to get back on topic too. I need to find the old post with the towing pool for the New Brat so we can revive that issue

-mike

paisan

So let's see so far we have:

David from Brooklyn: 2000lb
Ed: 2350lb
Dennis: 2500lb
Paisan: 2600lb
subearu: 2750lb
Soon2bsubee: 2800lb
Ross: 2999lb
David(dsattler): 3000lb
Frank P: 3050lb
Kate: 3500lb
Bob: 4000lb->3600lb

-mike

rsholland

Even though—in my wildest dreams—4000 is my number, I think 3500 (not 3600) is a realistic figure. In fact, I'm certain it won't be 3600, because 3500 is the cut off for Class II.

Bob

paisan

But kate took 3500, would you like to change to 3400 or 3450?

-mike

rsholland

besides towing, anybody have any other predictions on this model as announcement time nears?

Here are some questions:

• Will it have a dual-range tranny? After all, BRAT stood for Bi-Range All-Terrain, IIFC.

• And, if it does come with a dual-range tranny, will that be available in both 5-speed and automatic? Subaru has yet to offer a dual-range automatic unit.

• Will the H-6 (the assumed engine option) be available with a 5-speed?

• Will we see the "switchback" mid-gate?

• Will it lose that garish body cladding that the ST-X had?

• Will it get a longer wheelbase, and less rear overhang?

Bob

rsholland

share with Kate, put me down for 3400.

Bob

paisan

You and kate will share.

Predictions:

5=speed -Nope
Dual Range Tranny -Maybe, not likely
Mid-gate -Nope
Less overhangs -Maybe, not likely

-mike

paisan

So let's see so far we have:

David from Brooklyn: 2000lb
Ed: 2350lb
Dennis: 2500lb
Paisan: 2600lb
subearu: 2750lb
Soon2bsubee: 2800lb
Ross: 2999lb
David(dsattler): 3000lb
Frank P: 3050lb
Kate&Bob: 3500lb

-mike

1subydown1togo

saw this on the i-club...Subaru projections thru 2005

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=116725

P.S. Burns is in 2nd place in GB, 36.5 secs behind Gronholm...Mcrae and Makinen are both out...All burns needs to win the championship is to do 4th or better

rsholland

Most interesting is that the '03 Legacy will be introduced before the Forester, and that an all-new Legacy will follow a year later. If that's the case, my guess is that the '03 Legacy will not be the Legacy we had all hoped for, but instead, the '04 model is the one to wait for.

As for the Forester introduction, that squares pretty much with the earlier rumor that a "Legacy-based" SUV would debut next summer. Also, if the new Forester is indeed Legacy-based this time around, I can understand why Subaru would want to introduce a new Legacy/Outback in '04, rather than '05.

Also of interest, is that they mention that the NY Auto Show is in March. In the past it's always been in April. Hmmm...

Finally, I noticed the sales projections seem pretty aggressive.

Bob

fernieguy

Here' my take on what I want to see in the Brat
Towing capacity at 2500 - 3000lbs (since I can't share I'll go for 2900lbs)

- Definitely look at changing the wheel base, because that is a horrendous overhang.

- I agree with rsholland on the ugly body cladding, I don't think its really required on a car/utility pickup, leave it for the street racers.

- I would like to see the clearance up to 9 inches

- I think we will get a 5 speed with a dual range, I don't think we'll see an auto version, if there is I'm betting that it doesn't have the dual range.

- I hope its priced in the same range as the Forester models

- I predict that it will have the H-6, instead of the supercharged 2.5

- As for the mid gate, I'm not too sure about that, its a good concept but I haven't looked at it too closely. Has anyone checked out the Avalanche mid gate?

-In the last year I started car pooling at work and some people complain about the rear seat leg room (98 Forester), my question is, will it be less than what the Forester offers or will it be equivalent to what the Legacy has?

- Throw in a rear LSD, it would be nice.

- Lose the fabric roof

- Grooves in the box to carry 4x8 sheets of plywood, I don't expect to fit the length in but the width would be nice.

- Anti slip box coating would be nice as well.

That's all for now

When are we gonna start seeing these things? don't they go into production soon.

Stephen

rsholland

We won't see the new BRAT on the street until late October. Bummer...

Bob

pattim3

but the mind set has changed a bit. The STX will not be called the Brat. I'm not permited to say what the name is yet. The minute I get an okay, I'll share it.

Not much on details either. The only thing that I've heard is that people will be pleased that it is so close to the show car.

I'll let you know as soon as I have an okay.

Patti

rsholland

I wonder if that means the new "Brat-NOT!" (new working title) won't have a dual-range tranny?? BRAT originally meant Bi-Range. I sure hope that's not the case.

Bob

rsholland

invoking a bit of "history" when introducing new models, if the case presents itself, and if it makes sense. Therefore I was all for the name BRAT, because it "linked" with a previous Subie pickup, that many Subaru owners remember fondly.

Having said that, I can see why Subaru decided against using that name: It's marketing plain and simple. The word "brat," in today's market, carries a somewhat "negative" connotation; it's not exactly a "politically correct" term. The last thing a company wants to do is launch a new mass-market product with a controversial name, or with a name that might hurt sales.

Subaru is just playing it safe. It makes good business sense.

Bob

hammersley

was it Bi-Range? Or Bi-drive Recreational All-terrain Transport?
No argument on the new working title, though.
BratNot works for me!

Cheers!
Paul

cb70

YES tell me it's so Patti!

rsholland

You may be right in terms of the BRAT acronym. I know it's something like that, which includes the dual-range thought.

Bob

rsholland

Anybody have any thoughts on what Subaru might call the Brat-NOT? Here are some thoughts on possible word-directions:

• Might have a romantic "western" location as a theme. This is often used in trucks and SUVs. Examples: Santa Fe, Silverado, Dakota, and Durango.

• Probably a "word," rather a "letter" arrangement. I don't see ST-X, or something like that being used. There's nothing romantic or exciting about that.

• If it is a word, will it be a real word (like Legacy), or a made up word to evoke a feeling (like Impreza), or a foreign location and/or word to give it an exotic flavor (like Outback, or Cabriolet)?

• What about naming it after an animal? Again, this is very often done in naming vehicles. Examples: Ram, Mustang, and Barracuda.

• How about something that evokes a "positive" or "patriotic" theme. Examples: Liberty, Freedom.

• Whatever word is chosen, you can assume only positive feelings or images will be conveyed (unlike the word "brat").

• Word must appeal to both "X-treme" types, and "Harry and Harriet homeowner" types.

Bob

paisan

I'm betting they dropped the Brat name not only for marketing reasons but also cause it won't have a bi-range tranny.

-mike

texsubaru

The name shift strikes me as a little bit of a shame -- most of the (admittedly few) former Brat owners I know tend to be pretty nostalgic about the old Brats and would've liked to have seen the name revived. But if you're trying to market it to the pickup folks, "Brat" might look a little odd up against names like the "Ram," "Tundra," "Avalanche," "Ranger," "Frontier," etc. In comparison, "Brat" might appear to lack a bit of machismo. Of course, I'm not at all sure Subaru would/should be aiming squarely at that type of pickup market. It's a much more offbeat vehicle.

I also hope the midgate makes it into the production market, since it seems to have been so effective in the Avalanche. At the same time, though, I'd rather Subaru skip the midgate in the first model year if they still haven't gotten all the bugs out. At least in the short term, I'd argue that it's more important for the vehicle to uphold the Subaru reliability reputation than for it to have a glitchy midgate. And the Avalanche hasn't been around long enough to really know how well its midgate is working out, reliability- and leak-wise.

paisan

The big problem I find is that unless the back section is enclosed like the avalanche, any crappola that accumulates in the bed will roll into the interior of the vehicle when the mid-gate is lowered. That can't possibly be good.

-mike

qbrozen

I, for one, am glad it won't be called the BRAT. I am convinced that most people (who didn't own one - i.e. Joe and Josephine Q. Public) thought the BRAT was a POS. I know, I know, you fans will flip out over that concept. But its true. At least of everyone that I know. I've polled them. I've actually said "hey, you know that pickup concept from Subaru? Yeah, it will be called the BRAT." And every one of them cringed. I'm not saying they are right in doing so. That is just their perception, right or wrong. And perception is the name of the game in marketing.

Now, not to offend, but Subaru needs more buyers than those who previously owned a BRAT. Therefore, to bring about "nostalgia" and "warm gooey feelings" over an old name would do very little to attract new buyers.

From a marketing standpoint, that's my take on it.

rsholland

I agree. The name BRAT is only meaningful to hardcore Subie fans. It will not, in all likelihood, bring in new customers. After all, who would want to admit to owning something called a BRAT, other than Subie fans, or few oddballs?

Speaking of strange names, anybody remember the VW "Thing"? It was originally a WW II military version of the Beetle that was offered commercially back in the 70s.

Bob

twrx

I think the best reason for not nameing it BRAT is the word "Outback". How can Subaru not attach that name that is now so well known to expand the family to wagon, sedan and pickup. As a matter fo fact since all concepts get toned down I would be amazed if the wild paint scheme, over the top grill and fog lights make it and instead we see the same two tone colors of the present Outbacks and their styling too.

TWRX

pattim3

of how hard it is not to share the name with you all. The very second I get an okay, I'll post it...even if it means I have to excuse myself from a meeting. Meanwhile, it's fun to read your thoughts. Keep it up. It'll make the "announcement" even more fun (to see who comes close). Midgate?? I don't know yet. But you can count on knowing as soon as I do.

Thanks!

Patti

subearu

it probably will have Outback in the name somewhere since it's based on that. Outback SporTrak? Oh, wait, that's Ford.

-Brian

hypov

how about "Outback SCOUT"?
If it retains the 2.5L Supercharger:
SC = Supercharged
O = Outdoor
U = Utility
T = Truck

:-)

-Dave

1subydown1togo

"Another British company active in Thailand is Prodrive, the company that made its name by making Subaru into a rally-winning car and is now expanding into many other areas of automobile engineering. The new Prodrive unit will work with Ford to create personalized styling accessories for Ranger and Courier utility vehicles built in Thailand. Rangers produced at Ford's facility in Rayong, 100 miles south of Bangkok, are shipped throughout Southeast Asia, Europe, the Middle East, Australia and New Zealand. The Prodrive design and styling office will work on accessories that will bring the Ford Vehicle Personalization program, already successful in the U.S. and Europe, to a new range of customers in these territories."

Here is the link to it:

http://www.thecarconnection.com

rsholland

Can you give us a hint?

Is it based on an animal, vegetable, or mineral?

Bob

kate5000

Let's keep the old good BRAT name where it belongs, and hope that Subaru will come up with something better.

locke2c

I just hope the new Brat, or whatever it will be, just doesn't have all that ugly unpainted plastic cladding like the Chevy Avalanche. Or Aztek. (shudder)

-Colin

fernieguy

But its not very catchy to say the least, My vote is to call it the "Bandit" Yup the Subaru Bandit has a nice ring to it. Then name has a bit of a western theme that goes along with " Frontier, and Tacoma and Ranger" The Skiers in the crowd will know where the name comes from. Any thoughts. And it better come with the the dual range tranny or I'll be Frontier shopping

Stephen

paisan

Would it come only in Black with gold trim and an eagle on the hood? With black leather of course and gold wheels and of course a CB as std. equipment! I'd buy that

-mike

PS: Smokey and the Bandit is my favorite movie! hee hee

1subydown1togo

My vote is for the Outback Wallaby!

rsholland

my long list of possible name directions for the Brat-NOT, I'm going to add one more:

• Pickups are, at the very heart, work vehicles first. In addition, they are often thought of as "helpers" or even "friendly" in a somewhat "human" context. So a name that suggests "friend," or "companion" is also a good possibility. Isuzu took that approach with the "Amigo," and Jeep emphasized the "work" aspect with the name "Wrangler."

Bob

fernieguy

You're old school, I didn't even think of smoky and the bandit. But if it came with a pair of Rossignol Bandit skis (they kick *ss by the way and come in four styles X, XX, XXX, and Rebel). An Eagle on the hood...Now what would be cool, but only if it were a T-top.

Later

Stephen

bluesubie

Ok, so it was a Ford Ranger STX and not an
ST-X. :-D
My guess with the name change is that SoA saw that the enthusiasts were questioning the Bi-Drive, so they changed it.

I didn't realize the UK gets dual-range Impreza's on their wagons (non-WRX). Maybe it's because they're only 95 and ~120(?) h.p.
Bad approach and departure angles? It's a Legacy? ;-)

Dennis

rsholland

Not just the UK; every foreign market outside North America offers dual-range manual trannys.

Bob

locke2c

North America had them until the early 90s.

-Colin

fernieguy

We used to have them (My 87 GL wagon), then we lost them...now we want them back. I don't see what the big deal is aren't all the engines and tranny's manufactured in Japan then sent over here for assembly for the North American built Subies (Legacies and Outbacks) I could be wrong though. Here is another question, I assumed or heard that the Soon to be named pickup formerly know as the BRAT would be build in the US factory. Is this correct???? Lets get some more names going people. Come on we're a creative bunch (even though its Monday).

Stephen

bluesubie

I thought it was only OB's/Foresters in other countries. Wouldn't it have something to do with the size of the engine though? Are their any dual-range Subies with a 2.5L?

Stephen - They're actually building a new plant (for engines?) to make room for ST-X production in Indiana.

Dennis

rsholland

Yes, the dual-range is available in the 2.5.

My understanding (I could be wrong), is that, outside North America, the dual-range is available only in 5-speed 2.0L and 2.5L, Outbacks, Legacys, and Imprezas. This may vary slightly from country-to-country, however.

It is not available in any "performance" model, or any automatics.

Bob

rsholland

will be built here. I would also assume, at some point, it will be distributed world-wide. I don't see it as being a North America-only product.

As for names:

I like something like "Buddy," or "Bud-E," if they want to get cute with the spelling. It's along the same line as Amigo or Sidekick, in that it suggests a friendly, fun to be with, easy to get along with, and dependable "work" or "play" companion.

Bob

rsholland

in the current issue of AutoWeek (I think?): Some company is working on a no-lag turbo. Instead of being exhaust driven, it's electrically driven—therefore no turbo lag. However, it only works on cars with a 42 volt electrical system, which we should be seeing in the near future.

I wonder if Subaru is looking into this?

Bob

locke2c

there's not enough electric efficiency for such a device to ever truly replace a traditional exhaust driven turbosupercharger.

think about it-- the electricity is coming from the alternator, which is belt driven by the engine. if the electric turbo needs ah let's say 1kW (which seems low to me!) then you could figure out what it would take to spin an alternator-- even a 42v one-- enough to get there.

on the other hand, the exhaust gasses are nearly free other than the fact that a non-spooled turbo is a big restriction.

-Colin

rsholland

an electrical engineer, so maybe this thought is all screwy...

What if there were a separate electric motor, that is charged by the alternator, but supplies electrical voltage to this turbo, as well as other electrical gismos? Something similar to the current gas electric hybrids that Honda and Toyota have on the market. The difference being the electric motor would not power the car per say, but sub-systems of the gas engine. Could that not work?

BTW, I also read the new Civic Si has electric power steering.

Bob

paisan

Is it actual servos? or is it like the cybrid power steering in the XT6? The electric PS in the XT6 is a motor that operates the pump, but 90% of the time it's not even powered because it doesn't need the help at high speeds, only low speeds. Biggest problem is the brushes eventually wear out.

-mike