Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

malachy72

I've never questioned that synthetic oil was the better oil. Just not an advantage in my applications.

adc100

First of all there really is only one "True" over the counter synthetics. That's Mobil1. The only advantages that Mobil offers is longer drain intervals and enhanced performance under very cold or very hot (to the point of overheat conditions) It could literally save your engine in an extremen overheat condition. If you feel that none of these reasons apply to you then Castrol GTX, and Chevron Supreme will give at least as good of oil analysis as Mobil1 and possibly better up to 4K miles. My resons are-Hate to change oil and insurance at abnormal conditions.

fleetwoodsimca

I use 5W-30 oil of varying major brands in my 1998 Pathfinder, which I bought new. I use only WIX manufactured oil filters in this particular vehicle. I am totally happy with this combination, and would gain nothing by changing it. In #2128, malachy72 sums it up nicely. I'm not sure what adc100 was thinking in #2129. I have had excellent experiences with Redline synthetic oil, and I remain convinced that it is far superior to Mobil 1.

bluedevils

adc100 said 'over the counter' synthetic. I.e., commonly available at retail stores. Redline doesn't fit that profile. In the past few years, there were other synthetics that did fit the profile, such as Quaker State and Valvoline. But all except Mobil 1 seem to have gone the way of Syntec - group 3 'synthetics.'

mazdany

Where can I find out for myself if the synthetic oil I use (ie Quaker State, Valvoline)is a Group III synthetic and not like Mobil 1, a true synthetic?

adc100

Look for MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets). This is the one for Quaker State: http://www.pzlqs.com/techdata/l7_msds_fs.htm

1-Decene Homopolymer Hydrogenated is the main ingredient and that's not a PAO

bottgers

My car gets 38 mpg city driving. It's only a 1.5 litre engine, and I don't think it'll handle a thick viscosity or an additive that thickens things up. I don't want to put a lot of drag on the engine and cut down on mileage and performance. I'd rather have to add a little oil now and then. Besides, I'm not convinced there are any products that will slow or stop oil consumption.

mazdany

Thanks. Helps alot.

fleetwoodsimca

You can pay Mobil's elevated price for "real" synthetic (long chain molecules constructed by linking little ones together) or you can pay far less for hydrocracked product that is made by reducing the size of big molecules down to the size desired. The word, synthesize, means building something by putting together the parts. That is language, not magic. It appears that the evidence will support the idea that producing a product by synthesis is more expensive than by hydrocracking to produce that product. There is evidence that indicates the new SL grade hydrocracked products are extremely close to the competing synthesized products in quality. You pay your money, and take your chances.

bigorange30

I don't believe these products are equal. Oil analysis on this oil at 7-12K drain intervals that equals the results of mobil1 would be a start although I don't think we could be certain that tolerances were being protected as well as they are with mobil1. I wish I could see some evidence after about 200K miles on an engine with mobil1 on the dimensions of the critical parts dimensions and compare that to the same parts on an engine using this new dino SL grade. I just don't believe it would be as good.

fleetwoodsimca

I'd agree with you in a heart beat, if your synthetic was Redline, but with it being Mobil 1, I just have to withhold support. Polyol esters with moly added are just simply in another league.

bluesubie

Is there evidence that any hydrocracked oil is worse than a PAO?

The head Subaru tech at my dealer has seen the inside of an engine that used Mobil1 and in his words, "It was so clean that you could eat off of it."
OTOH, my dad used Castrol GTX 10W30 in his Chevy pick-up (V6) and changed it every 3k. He lives in SC and tows cattle a few times a year. He sold it at 215k because he just wanted something new. He never had to touch the engine.

-Dennis
(soon to switch to synthetic in my turbo @7500 miles)

bluedevils

Not trying to be snotty here...

Aside from the pride in knowing that one's engine has like-new tolerances, what is the benefit? Fewer/smaller leaks? Longer-lasting parts? I often wonder just what the benefit is of an engine's tolerances remaining tighter (i.e. closer to original), less wear on internal engine parts, a 'cleaner' engine, etc. etc. etc.

Why should I be concerned about my engine's parts being subjected to more 'wear'? What is the harm to the engine? And as long as the engine runs and performs well, why should I be concerned with how 'clean' it is or isn't?

bigorange30

As the tolerances get bigger the parts get smaller, weaker an allow more leaks into and out of the engine. Presumably, long term, it would mean that your engine may last 500K instead of 300K miles or 300K instead of 150K without the need of major repairs, leaks or oil consumption. Is letting antifreeze or water get into your oil a problem? Is letting oil into your cylinders or on your garage floor a problem? Maybe not for some people, but I would guess that for most people, if they knew these things could happen, they would care.

As far as the cleanliness of the engine goes, thousands of Toyota owners have wished their engine was kept cleaner preventing them from having to buy an $8K engine when it sludged up.

bluedevils

Based on the numerous anecdotal reports of people getting 200k miles or more when using conventional oil, I am of the opinion that changing conventional oil every 3,000 miles will have no significant, adverse, long-term effects on an engine. By 'long-term' I mean within the mileage an owner who owns the vehicle over the long haul (8-10 years?) expects to get out of a vehicle.

Specifically, I expect our 1998 Isuzu Trooper to run for 200k miles or more. I do not think I am hindering that goal by running well-regarded conventional oil and changing it every 3,000 miles. I don't think my previous strategy of Mobil 1 changes every 5,000 miles would make the engine any more likely to reach 200,000 miles trouble free.

fleetwoodsimca

Right on! You have really expressed some chunks of reality. For most involved people, this oil thing is a game. We on this thread are among the players. I agree with most of your conclusions, yet also understand the desire to pursue the greatest quality result, even when it is not necessary to do so as a matter of practicality. I prefer 3K and filter using mineral oil, and spent many years doing the synthetic thing until I switched back. I would add that the filter need not be expensive or top grade. The middle ground will get the majority of us to the same place that the esoteric regimen would, for all practical purposes.

bottgers

I won't be using this stuff anymore. I can't give you any scientific reasons why I wouldn't use it anymore, let's just say it doesn't give me that "warm fuzzy."

The main reason I tried it in the first place is because my engine uses about 1/2 quart per 1000 miles. Not a big consumption problem, but I wanted to see if it does what Valvoline claims it does. It did absolutely nothing to slow consumption. I have read where some folks have had good luck getting it to slow down or stop oil leaks. I don't have any leaks, so for me, it did nothing.

I'm probably gonna catch some flack for this one, but here goes. I changed out this oil at 3K miles, and it was pretty much pitch black in color. My last oil change, I used Chevron SL, and I didn't change it out until 5K miles. It's color was a dark honey color, which isn't much darker than it was when it came out of the bottle. Keep in mind I'm having to add about 1/2 a quart per 1000 miles in each case. I have to say, these results look very familiar. Back when I was using any ol' dino, the oil was always pitch black at 3K. When I switched to Mobil 1 full syn, I wouldn't change my oil until the 6K mark, and at that point, the oil was a dark honey color. Could it be Max Life is just a plain ol' dino in a fancy bottle, and the Chevron SL is closer to a syn than a dino?

I know there have been many points of view given about the color, or darkness of the oil. Some of you have said the darker the oil, the better it's doing it's job by suspending the crud instead of leaving it in the engine. If this is true, then does this mean that dino's do their job better than syns because they get darker sooner? I am going to somewhat disagree with this theory because I believe a true syn like Mobil 1 is superior to a dino. I believe syns suspend just as much crud, they're just able handle more without breaking down and becoming saturated because of their superior structure, which is why they appear to stay cleaner longer. I think the trickiest part about oil is determining where the line is that separates dinos and syns. What is a dino, and what is a syn? Is a hydrocracked dino really a syn? In the case of the Chevron SL, it certainly displays the characteristics of a true syn. In the case of the Valvoline, it acts like a plain ol' nothin' special dino.

Someone tell me where my thought process has gone wrong, because I'm thinking this Chevron SL is the best stuff available for the price.

fleetwoodsimca

Use the hydrocracked Chevron and rejoice, for you have decrypted an enigma.

bottgers

But apparently this is a dead thread.

bigorange30

I read it. I also know that there are several here that subscribe to the idea that Chevron Supreme is as good as synthetic at a lower price. I still just don't buy it. I have not seen any analysis data that tells me this is true. I would really need to see very good results across about 10 different kinds of vehicles and through multiple analyses on each without issue at >7K miles each before I will believe it.

armtdm

Do you ave that kind of data on any oil?

bottgers

.....please share.

bluedevils

Yeah, what armtdm asked. Sure, it would be great to see that sort of info on Chevron Supreme. It would be pretty good proof of whether or not that oil measures up to a 'real' synthetic in its ability to hold up and do its job well over extended drain intervals. My impression is it probably isn't doing as good a job as Mobil 1 at 7,000 miles in most vehicles, but what are we really basing it on?

You seem to be demanding more proof from the Chevron Supreme than of the synthetic oil(s) that you already believe in. Maybe that's okay, but part of me thinks it's a little inconsistent. Not picking on YOU here, because I think many folks probably look at it the same way.

bigorange30

from an unproven entity. Mobil1 has several things going for it. First of all it has been around for a while and has a very good reputation. Next, it has many analyses already posted on bob's and this board that look good at high drain mileage. Then, there is the Mobil1 gaurantee. Finally, I have had very good results so far on my QX4. This all comes together to validate the PAO chemistry for me. Changing to another PAO would not require as much data but would require some decent availability. I am just not convinced that any dino is as good.

bluedevils

but I don't put much stock into 'been around a while,' 'has a very good reputation,' and 'have had very good results so far on my [own vehicle].' Lots of products live on good reputations. Some of them actually ARE good products, and some of them are not. Fram oil filters and Castrol Syntec oil come to mind as prominent examples of the latter.

I'm not trying to disagree with your conclusion that Mobil 1 is an excellent oil; I agree that it is, but I really am not 100% convinced of that. And much of our 'evidence' or 'reasoning' for why it's a good oil really isn't all that powerful. I'm also not convinced that Chevron Supreme cannot go 7000 miles and do well. Will I try it for that long? No, not yet. Not when it's $1.08/qt and I haven't heard others doing that with success.

bigorange30

with the reputation, then the reputation is validated.

You are really contradicting yourself with statements like "I'm not trying to disagree with your conclusion that Mobil 1 is an excellent oil; I agree that it is, but I really am not 100% convinced of that." and "I'm also not convinced that Chevron Supreme cannot go 7000 miles and do well. Will I try it for that long? No, not yet."

Either you think that Mobil1 is an excellent oil or you don't. There is no eveidence that Chevron will go 7K. I don't blame you for not pushing it.

bluedevils

I believe that Mobil 1 is an excellent oil. Nothing in my last 2 posts is contradictory. I choose to believe it even though I do not feel 100% certain that it's true. It's my opinion.

bottgers

.....in here believes the Chevron is as good as Mobil 1. I don't. However, I do think it's as good as many of the other so called syns, better than the other dinos, and certainly good for 5K intervals.

bigorange30

Everyone has their opinions and believes in different things.

I don't share the opinion that Chevron is good for 5K miles or that it is as good as many of the other "so called syns" but I will agree that it appears better than other dinos.

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

pdalpsher

I have one of the Toyota V6s that is subject to the special warranty due to sludge. The first oil analysis I had done showed the oil my dealer used was completely shot at 2400 miles. The analysis on Chevron 10/30 at 3000 indicated that it was in better shape than the original oil but the company recommended changing it at 3k intervals until I see some improvement. I'm seeing too much lead so there may be something wrong with the engine.

I wouldn't do extended drains (over 3k) on any oil without using an analysis at 3k to see if an extended drain was feasible. Making assumptions on an engine/oil combination without knowing the facts could be costly.

fleetwoodsimca

Mobil 1 is very likely a decent oil, and would appeal to more people if the price weren't so high. Demanding those who prefer the less expensive Chevron (or any other brand) over Mobil 1 to provide excruciating evidence of even basic acceptability for lubricating an engine (disregarding industry certification, etc.) is absurd argumentation. Let's get blunt here! Provide others that which you demand of them, or get out of Dodge.

mazdany

Just found several cases at BJ's wholesale at a great price. Tab came out to $3.89/qt. It was next to the Syntec which was at the same price. I will try this stuff at next oil change, now that I have an economical source to procure it from. Maybe I will get the extra hp and fuel economy now that a true synth is supposed to give.

Previous poster stated that if hydrocracked oil were significantly lower priced that PAO oil it would be a good buy. I agree, but the reality is that on retail in NYC, Mobil 1 is about $4.89/qt on a good day, while Castrol and other like it are at $4.65-$4.75/qt. The price differential is not enough. IMO, you'd might as well go for the Mobil 1 and get the almost assured performance of a PAO. If hydrocracked synthetics were about $3.50/qt, I would actually consider it (as long as it is not Castrol). That would actually bridge the gap between, syn blends and PAO prices. If Castrol, QState/Pennzoil, and Valvoline did that they would steal alot of the syn business away from Mobil and still make as much or greater profit that Mobil per sale due to the low cost of production of hydrocracked synthetics.

mazdany

Why do anti-wear additives function better in PAO oil as compared to petro and hydrocracked petro?
Does the PAO somehow "maximize" the additive's efficiency? I am not a chem engineer, so I don't have much knowledge of how the high temperatures in engines have an effect on on additives.

bigorange30

means nothing. The proof is in the pudding (or application) as the old saying goes. Don't give me this certification junk. That is the most absurd argument to me. As a chemical engineer, I realize that chemistry makes a big difference and how you get there can also make a big difference.

Everyone has their own comfort level.

Also, let's say that I accept that Chevron goes 5K with no problems (which I don't yet). This would be the economical analysis.

.................Chevron...Mobil1
Price/qt........$1.09.....$3.58
qt/change.......5..........5
$/change.......$5.45....$17.9
miles/change...5000.....7500
mpg...............14........15.5
gas gals/change.357.1...483.9
$/gallon.........$1.6......$1.6
$ gas/change...$571.42.$774.19
changes/100K...20.......13.333
$/100k miles...$7251....$6690

Mobil1 still saves me $561 dollars over 100k miles. So, how is the Chevron cheaper again?

bluesubie

I see comments that Syntec as not as good as M1.

Someone please show me the data. Regardless of what the basestocks are made of, I would like to see the proof.

Thanks,
Dennis

bottgers

First of all, Mobil 1 can't be had for $3.58 a quart. That figure is about a buck low. Secondly, I seriously doubt Mobil 1 will show an increase of 1.5 mpg over the Chevron. You'd probably be lucky to see .5 mpg difference.

bottgers

You're asking for something that can't be done. Everything posted in here is all about "warm fuzzies" and personal preference. Nobody can prove Mobil 1 is any better than any other type of oil, or vise versa. The only possible way anyone could prove anything is if they have a lab at their personal disposal, they posses the knowledge to conduct experiments and analyze in a controlled environment, and then test every type and brand of oil in every possible condition that could possibly arise in an automotive application. Until this happens, you'll never see proof of anything.

bigorange30

if you shop around like I do and get it at Wal-Mart when they put it on sale. I bought (3) 5 qt containers for $17.88 which if divided by 5 is $3.58. You have to stock up when it is on sale.

Secondly, as far as mpg, I quoted exactly what I got when I switched from dino to Mobil1. The change was dramatic and easy to see in the first tank of gas. Are you saying that Chevron Supreme delivers higher mpg than standard dinos. If so, I have seen anyone else claim that yet. Give me some evidence man.

bottgers

.......and have never seen Mobil 1 on sale. I'm not playin' these I don't believe you, prove it games anymore. I'm not a lab tech, and I don't own a lab, and there are too many variables in every day driving to accurately measure a difference in mileage between different types of oil. I don't believe there would be 1.5 mpg difference between M1 and Chevron, and you saying it isn't proof.

armtdm

A few comments. Yes, in my home city Mobil 1 is $4.25-4.75/quart but that is immaterial in your calculation. It would not make much difference. What places Mobil 1 on top is fuel savings. I have used synthetics for 10 years, and have never seen your kind of change in the mpg.

Further you state
 Then, there is the Mobil 1 gaurantee.

I assure you that this warranty is not worth the paper it is printed on, none of these warranties on oil are whether they are Amsoil, Quaker State or Mobil. You will never, ever be able to show the oil caused the engine failure.

Anyway, if you are indeed getting the mpg from Mobil 1, that is great. And, with brands of oil it always comes down to whatever you can live with and what makes you happy. Personally, Mobil 1 is not it for me as my Camry would eat it up and spit it out in the form of sludge at 7,500 miles but again, each case is individual.

We have zillions of cases of 150,000 plus mileage engines going strong on the cheapest dino available with Fram filters changed EVERY 3000 MILES. Go figure!

bigorange30

Everyone has to prove it to themselves. I am not trying to change your minds but because of my experience, you are not going to change mine either. I would not believe you either just because you said it, so I don't blame you for that. However, after numerous people talking about it, including my father, it convinced me to try Mobil1 and I have found all the claims to be true so far.

I could make a copy of the receipt and find a way to post it here for those of you who don't believe I got the oil for that price.

I also agree that the gaurantee is not worth much since I will not be able to prove the damage was from oil but just the fact that they are willing to put it in writing is worth a little to me.

altair4

I've seen Mobil 1 at K-mart for $3.89 or $3.99 (can't exactly recall); bought enough for several changes at the time because of the great price. this wasn't an "in store special" either, it was in their weekly Sunday ad back in the Fall.

For me, Wal-Mart never has the stuff I want on sale at the time I want it. I've never seen Mobil 1 in a Walmart or Target ad.

arjay1

I am not sure how you arrived at your figures but I come up that the Mobil 1 would actually save you $980 over the 100,000 miles.
If the gas is $1.60 per gallon, at 14 miles per gallon your gas cost is $0.1143 per gallon. At 15.5 MPG your gas cost is $0.1032. That totals $11,430 in fuel at 14MPG and $10,320 in fuel at 15.5MPG. That is $1,100 plus right there. Take out $129 for extra oil cost and you are at $980 in savings.
Of course, that is based on your 10% increase in mileage. I too have never seen that kind of increase.
How much does anyone think that the car manufacturers would pay to have their CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) number increase 10%? If Mobil 1 could really increase your mileage by 10%, then every manufacturer would test their cars with Mobil 1 in the engine and rate their mileage based on that. In turn, their CAFE number would go up 10% as well. Manufacturers spend millions of dollars to increase their MPG figures a few points to meet the ever rising government mandated CAFE number. Raising it instantly by 10% would be like finding the Holy Grail. I am skeptical of that claim.

according2me

is indeed available for 17.88/5qt jug. I have been buying it for that price for the last 18 months. It just isn't in the stores on a regular basis. Like big orange said, you need to stock-up when it is available.

I usually start looking @5K miles in order to have a chance to buy it before my 6K changes.

BTW, I'm also toying with extending my changes to 7.5K with the M1.

I also use Chevron Supreme and Pennz when I miss the M1 display, but for 4k miles tops.

I have an 01 Accord and Tntitan posted results at 5k for the chevron oil on Bob's board. The results were not great at 5k. The consensus on that board was to limit it to 4K changes.

Now I know that his results don't necessarily condemn all chevron users to less than 5k changes, but I'll err on the side of caution until other user analysis proves it can go the distance. IMHO for 3-4K changes chevron is a supreme choice. For longer, go with the M1.

mike1qaz

mazdany

I have never ever seen Mobil 1 on sale in any retail outlet (in the NYC Metro Area at least). Guess I just have bad timing. Without fail it is usually $4.89/qt in NYC. Must be that NYC markup.

mazdany

Hydrocracked Oils are far better than any conventional oil. My Protege starts better in the winter, the temp needle seems to be a slight bit lower, and the engine is a little bit quieter. I have not seen any MPG increase. Once I try Mobil 1, we'll see if it has any more effect than Valvoline SynPower.

I personally do not like Castrol Syntec, not for it performance, but due to Castrol muddying the label "synthetic oil" for the consumer. Castrol has significantly lower production costs when they produce their "synthetic oil" vs Mobil. I would like for Castrol to pass along the savings to the consumer, then I would more inclined to look at Castrol in a more favorable light.

according2me

good oil for the price. It has group 2 oil and moly. I agree with you on the Syntec.

The conventional dino oil as of the SL branding is hydrocracked group 2 oil. Pennzoil, Chevron/Texaco, Castrol, Motorcraft/Conoco all start with group 2 base oil.

mike1qaz

bigorange30

It appears that you are right arjay1. I used Excel to do that calculation and I must have messed up that last formula for the total.

Also, for those of you that refuse to believe that I got the 1.5 mpg additional when switching. Someone said they could believe a 0.5 mpg increase. Well, I would say you should try it and see what you get. However, if you do only get 0.5 mpg increase, then you save $394 in gas and subtract off the extra $129 in oil costs, you still have a $265 savings.

The point I'm making here is that Chevron Supreme is not saving you money over Mobil1 so don't try to make that argument. It's just not true. Do the math for yourself.

As far as the price of Mobil1 goes, I found another store tonight, BJ's Warehouse Club, that was selling it at an everyday price of $23.39/ 6 qt case. That's $3.90/qt. Those of you who haven't seen this kind of price, its because your not looking for it. Does anyone go around to 4 or 5 different stores to shop for a product they don't intend to buy? Others who do buy it don't really want to spend the time to find it so they just spend the higher price and still get the Mobil1. Please stop believing this myth that you can't get Mobil1 for less than $4/qt because its just not true either. It would appear that some here work for Chevron or maybe they own stock in them.

bottgers

None of us own stock in Chevron, it's just that some of us feel it's the best oil available for the price.

bigorange30

Can you show figures like I did that show Chevron is more economical?

I am an open to a presentation of facts just not these myths that have been talked about where Chevron is more economical than synthetic.