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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Thanks! I feel that I am a pretty reasonable person who is open to believing just about anything. I'm not a synth-basher, but you wouldn't know it from some of the responses on the synthetic oil forum.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Wow, that's an amazing deal. The dealers can't be making much, if anything, on that service.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    The synthetic oil thread seems from time to time to degenerate into a justification frenzy among "true believers." Open, free thinking forums have a lot more to offer.
  • tntitantntitan Member Posts: 306
    I sent mine to Blackstone and some of the people at Bob's site indicated that Blackstone often has low TBN sumbers. My car is a Honda Accord SE with the 2.3L 4 banger. One of the problems is that I make 4 trips each day (to and from work twice a day) that are less than 5 miles. I was going to switch to Schaeffers but I may try one more analysis on the Chevron at a different lab before making the switch. Other than my TBN all of my other wear indicators were excellent.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    A good quality oil filter should last for 6K miles, and each load of Chevron or other oil purchased at [essentially] $1.00 per quart would be good for at least 3K. Get yourself one of those quick action drain plugs for the pan. Change the filter every other 3K oil change. Catch your oil in one of the modern "capture and transport" type oil drain pans to minimize your need to spend time. How can you lose, staying with inexpensive mineral oil and decent filters? You can go buy overpriced oil and filters and pay people $20.00 per pop to tell you if you need to change your oil, but doesn't that sound like a waste of money? The only improvement you could make to the above scenario is to change the filter every time you change the oil. Thanks everybody, for listening! I needed to vent my frustration over all this human effort being extended to "torture" engines with extended oil and filter changes. Why do that? It isn't demanded or even justified by our societal circumstances, period.
  • pulgopulgo Member Posts: 400
    I do not want to lecture anybody about their oil changing habits. To each his own.
    My opinion is that the less oil changes I have to perform on my cars, the better. Both vehicles in my household are driven a combined 50 k miles per year. Instead of 16 oil changes per year we only do 4, 2 per vehicle. This means that we save several hours of our valuable time (there is so little left after work and commute), about 50 quarts of oil won't have to be purchased or disposed of. I won't even mention the savings in money because the fact that we use synthetic oil is a strictly personal and optional thing.

    What I consider valuable though is the information obtained by regular oil analysis (only US$ 14 per analysis). Potentially very expensive repairs can be prevented if you know when coolant contaminates the oil or when abnormal wear occurs in the engine of one of our cars.

    So please, everybody keep changing their "dino" oil at 3 k miles or synthetic at whatever interval. There are more important things happening in this world today that are really worth fighting for.

    I wish you guys (and gals) a great weekend and NO SNOW and ICE.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    Much better getting real data than anecdotal "crap".
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    I got a 5 qt jug of 5w-30 pennzoil to replace the 10w 30 chevron in the wife's explorer?
  • tntitantntitan Member Posts: 306
    I have one of those quick action drain plugs (Fram) and I can just fill a one gallon milk jug to dispose of at Auto Zone and let the rest run into my "capture and transport" type oil drain pan along with my oil filter.

    My Chevron was $1.08 after tax and my Supertech filter was $2.15 after tax for a total of $7.01 per oil change. I am confident that I can go 4K per oil change and get wonderful oil analysis and at least 152K miles on my engine. That would be about 10 years for me and as long as I would care to keep the car. After 36K I am averaging 25.8 MPG and could not be happier with the car. Assuming these costs remained constant including gas at $1.35/gallon my total costs for oil and gas would be (38 oil changes x $7.01 = $266.38 and 5,891.5 gallons x $1.35 = $7,953.53) a total of $8,219.91.

    I paid $4.385 per quart (could have gotten a substantial discount with a larger order but was afraid the additive package would not last sitting on a shelf for more than a year or two) for Schaeffers to be shipped to my home which would raise my oil change cost to $21.88 per change ($4.385*4.5+$2.15). If I am able to get 8,000 per oil change then my oil would then cost ($21.88*19 oil changes = $415.72) for 152K. Assuming I get 2% better gas mileage I would then get 26.316 MPG and my gasoline cost would be 5,775.95 gallons x $1.35 = $7,797.53 and my total gas and oil costs for 152K miles would be $8,213.25.

    The difference in costs is only $6.66 over 10 years. If my mileage stays the same (very likely in my opinion) then the difference in costs is still only $149.34 over 10 years. This is nothing either way. I change the oil less often and should be getting less engine wear on my many short trips and cold starts and that is the main reason I want to try something else.

    IMHO it just all depends on the individual vehicle and driver. If I had a car that used enough oil to require topping off inbetween oil changes there is no doubt that I would be using Chevron Supreme. If I lived where it is really cold and I was doing a lot of cold starts and making short trips then I would definitely use one of the "real synthetics". There are a lot of us that are somewhere inbetween and it just depends. In my accounting courses in college the correct answer to nearly every class problem began with "It depends........."

    All of these generalizations that have been made in this thread are total BS. It is not black and white. You can't fit a square peg in a round hole. Just my personal experience. I am just glad to share with others so that I can learn some of this without having to experience all of the hardships on my own.

    Whew!! I feel better.
  • opera_house_wkopera_house_wk Member Posts: 326
    Maybe it can. The other part of the story is that there are a lot of things that drop into the pan like bits of gaskets. A lot of people have reported this and some have reached the point where the engine suffered a severe drop in oil pressure and had to have the pan dropped to clean the screen. So frequent changes do have a benefit, they are the best filter. For the same reason I'm not too fond of those quick change drain plugs. I still want that good flow to wash my troubles down the drain. Just a thought.
  • bburton1bburton1 Member Posts: 395
    Have got my oil/filter change routine down to taking no more than 20 minutes if I am slow. Have a couple of 6 gallon plastic gasoline containers which I pour my used oil into and there are several gas stations and a couple of car dealers that heat their buildings with used motor oil and they are way happy to see me in late March.

    Going to a quick oil change place will take at least as long if not longer and how many horror stories have we heard about stripped threads-filters falling off and so forth.

    I think there are some people who don't like to get their fingers dirty-that's cool too.
  • baveuxbaveux Member Posts: 175
    Amorales,thanks for the info I will look into it.

    Pulgo I'm with you, Following the same reciepe today that they were following in the 70 doesn,t make sense to me.

    Good oil and filter, followed by a car well maintained can go longer than 3000 miles on an oil change. Like you I have better thing to do than sleeping under my car,but hey, some likes it and it is absolutely ok. It's a hobby like any other .Happy holidays to all of you .
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ......in here earlier about Valvoline's Max Life SL. I'm too lazy to go back through and see what else, if anything was posted about it, but I know there was some concern about the SL no longer containing molly. Has anyone done an analysis on this stuff, and if so, how did it turn out?
  • pdalpsherpdalpsher Member Posts: 136
    I have a Toyota V6 and got much better results with Chevron Supreme 10/30 than I did with the oil my dealer uses. The results support a drain interval of 3500-4k miles. I am seeing abnormal levels of lead (but much less than the first analysis) so for a couple of changes I'm going to cut back the miles and see if the lead levels improve. The results of both tests are posted on Bob's board. My TBN on the Chevron was 4.5 at 3.9k miles. Blackstone is the lab on this test. The first test had TBN of 0.5 at 2.4k miles.
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Someone on Bob's forum posted SuperTech syn. results that looked real good. I assume it wasn't you. The factory specs. showed that there was not a lot of difference between SuperTech syn. and Chevron dino. The testing in an actual engine may show SuperTech's (or any other group III's) advantage.

    My assumption (with some justification from Johnny) is that SuperTech will be switched over to Shell's Equilon refineries once Texaco is switched over and the Shreveport blending plant closed-- so the entire SuperTech line might get to look a lot like Shell in the next year or two. I'd always heard that Shell varied greatly geographically, so I'm not sure what this will actually mean.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    that when it comes to super tech you are the man to come to. I think I'll send in a virgin sample of super tech dino SL for analysis, any interest? BTW, it's really not fair to compare the SUPER TECH SYN w/ CHEVRON DINO. Not when it still is 2x the price.
  • bigorange30bigorange30 Member Posts: 1,091
    If the Super Tech Syn lasts twice as long as the Chevron then the costs are equivalent. Does anyone know how long either will last in any type of engine?
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    IF. Especially since there are analysis of Chevron Supreme SL indicating that it could easily go 6k miles. Oh yeah, the S-T syn is not a true synthetic, only a grouo III.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Isn't the SuperTech 'full synthetic' $2.99 a qt at Wal-Mart? Chevron Supreme is $1.08/qt at my local Wal-Marts. So the SuperTech is actually almost 3 times as expensive per quart. If it is used longer than the Chevron, the true cost gap narrows, obviously.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    ......analysis will show that the ST syn will be good for 12-18K oil changes. He11, I wouldn't run M1 for that long. For the price the Chevron's tough to beat. I'll be switching back to it if I don't see any results with the Max Life.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    I always try to err on the side of conservatism when estimating. I've found that good surprises far exceed bad ones.
  • americanflagamericanflag Member Posts: 400
    I have heard some do not like it, I was just wondering if this is the case and what may be it's drawbacks.
  • pluto5pluto5 Member Posts: 618
    You must be a large guy, toting 6 gallon cans of motor oil. Personally, I just pour the stuff back into the 5 qt. Walmart jugs from whence it came. Changing your oil is a great time and money saver particularly if you have several vehicles but I firmly believe that people who do it just enjoy taking care of their cars and seeing the black sludge go out and the new juice go in.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    here,here!
  • csandstecsandste Member Posts: 1,866
    Great if it could be posted both here and Bob's site. Remember this before you fork over the dough, however.

    Shell is closing the blending plant that makes ST some time in the next year. When that happens, there's a pretty good chance that the blending will be shifted over to some of the excess Equilon capacity. That means in 12 months, ST will probably look more like Shell or the Equilon Havoline than it looks like the present oil.
  • altair4altair4 Member Posts: 1,469
    Yep, I'll admit that I'm one of those people who just enjoys seeing the old oil out, fresh stuff poured in, and a new filter on, to boot. Knowing it's done right and the feeling of satisfaction are secondary gains! I just like working on cars; it's so different than my everyday work environment.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Psychological studies indicate that VERY routine jobs are very much at risk for mistakes being made. People working day in and day out changing oil and filters are very much in line for regrettable mistakes. Loose pan plugs, loose filters, double gaskets, overfilling the crankcase, etc.
    All this can be avoided by persons who have a place to accomplish the work for themselves. Like you, I enjoy doing the routine maintenance on my vehicles, to the extent that I can assure myself that all has been done correctly. I have had some hard lessons concerning having others do these jobs.
  • pluto5pluto5 Member Posts: 618
    Is it just the routine or the combination of routine, working in a cold, dirty environment for low wages? Tire changers are in the same situation IMO. If you use a small, independent shop or sevice station they don't usually hire people just to change tires and do oil changes so you will probably not have a problem. It's really the mass marketers that have ruined service IMO.
  • ddtigger1ddtigger1 Member Posts: 9
    OK you guys, what about all the " Slick 50's " and " Dura Lube " what's the deal with them. I am leery of using them, however it it does help...
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Dom a search on FTF (Federal Trade Commission) and "Snakeoil" or "Duralube" these products all have findings against them for false advertising. For the most part engines have balanced addditive packages that work together. The best you will usually do is not hurt anything and at the worst cause damage to your engine. What are you expecting the aditive to do for you??
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    If engine is operating fine there is no need for additives as they will do nothing in the way of preventative measures. And, 99.9% of hem are Snake Oil. Stay away
  • bburton1bburton1 Member Posts: 395
    Can't recall seeing any of the snakeoil crowd talking about Teflon which is a registered TM-the owner of the TM got them to quit using their TM name.

    Anybody see any recent claims about Teflon as an additive?

    Also will try to find a reference to a news story about one of the people owning/marketing one of the better known snakeoil products-guy has spent over 20 years doing the same thing-talk about no shame.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Our 98 Trooper seems to run fine but consumes quite a bit of oil - a quart every 1500 or so miles - and has been consuming more than it did in the past (1 qt. every 2000-2500 miles). Oil consumption in this 3.5L Isuzu motor is pretty common.

    Would you leave things alone, or would you recommend any sort of oil additive or other procedure or product that might help to reduce this consumption?

    I'm not sure if consumption alone is anything to worry about, as long as everything else is okay. And I'm not sure what underlying factors may be causing this consumption, and whether any of them can be resolved.
  • joatmonjoatmon Member Posts: 315
    Try Auto_RX. http://www.auto-rx.com/


    Jack

  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    I spent a couple minutes poking around the site and have 2 thoughts:

    1. sounds like another flavor of 'snake oil'
    2. product seems to address sludge/dirt issues, not consumption issues
  • mrdetailermrdetailer Member Posts: 1,118
    As oil degrades and forms sludge it then consumes more and more oil. The Toyota Sludge site had a numbers of users where oil consumption increased a lot just before the engine stopped completely.

    I used Auto-RX once and the next oil change was a lot cleaner. Engine ran quieter after about 200 miles with it in too. Noisy valve lifters have quieted down. Sorry, but I personally like Auto-RX.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Who knows, maybe I'll end up trying this product or something like it. First I'd like to get more recommendations from folks on how to reverse a trend of increasing oil consumption.
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    I suspect you're right that a poor environment makes the job all the harder to do correctly. If you do your own, your self interest helps to assure that the job will get done properly, assuming you know what your doing(!) of course.
  • joatmonjoatmon Member Posts: 315
    Auto-RX is one of only a handfull of products like this that seem to work. Check Bob's site. Many satisfied customers. You can actually speak with the inventor of the product. My understanding is that he will give a personal recommendation for your situation.

    Jack
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    joatmon, thanks for the additional info. It sounds like this product is not another snake oil after all.

    I still wonder, though, if/how our 98 Trooper developed significant sludge in the engine. I've never exceeded 4,000 miles on conventional oil or 6,000 miles on Mobil 1 and always used well-regarded filters. And even though our Trooper sees its share of city driving, it does not fall into any extremes (tons of short trips, no long highway trips, very cold or hot weather, etc.).
  • joatmonjoatmon Member Posts: 315
    Some oils have a loaded additive package. I used Mobil 1 in my wife's car every 5k for 140k. I thought, well, this engine is clean. The dealer did and Inspection II (check everything, big $) and they put in BMW synthetic. The oil got dark very quickly. I've continued using it the last couple of changes thinking it may clean some things Mobil 1 left behind. The second and third changes left the oil appearance lighter.

    You hear some on Bob's site tell of a change in oil brand &/or viscosity changing the consumption habits of and engine.

    Bob's site has the virgin oil specs for many oils. Nose around over there and you may find an oil loaded in detergents to try.

    Jack
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Proselytizers seem to be darting in and out... (:oÞ
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Well, I tried the Auto RX in my son's 97 Rodeo with the 3.2L V6. Engine was operating fine, no oil consumption just a little dirty, varnish in the valve cover area etc. I didn't see any major benefit from the RX but engine was fine before.

    Personally, I now like the Schaeffers Neutra which can be placed in the crankcase as well as gas tank. Have used it in two engines now to clean up a little, one the Rodeo after the RX and it did get more of the varnish out and in my 150,000 mile Camry. I have a slight oil consumption issue in the Camry but nothing like your Isuzu. As I just did change out the Neutra in the Camry I don't know as yet if it had any effect on oil consumption. The Neutra is very inexpensive as compared to the RX but both seem to work for most people that post about usage.
  • malachy72malachy72 Member Posts: 325
    what were you expecting a-rx to do if your engine had no issues?
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    Any oil consumption that occurs means the oil is either leaking or burning. If the engine is burning it, either due to valve seals or rings, the oil is going into the cylinders and burning.
    The cumulative effect is that more and more carbon is being deposited in the cylinders, oil keeps going in and then partially burning- leaves more carbon in the cylinders-spark plugs start getting fouled, engine runs worse, you know the story,,,one thing triggers another kinda thing.
    If the auto-rx can clean the rings out or make the valve seals stop oil passage from the top end, then do it.
    Eat healthy (or drink good tequila) when you're young, you'll feel better when you're old,,,engine does the same thing.
    Rando
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Primary reason for using it was to stop or decrease seal seepage. No results were noted.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    rando, thanks for the explanation. Your explanation has motivated me to get more active in reducing the oil consumption in our Trooper. I'll probably try switching brands of oil and see if that helps. The truck is ready for a spark plug change anyway - almost 75k miles on the original plugs.

    Actually, there's quite a bit of work I'm planning to have done in the next couple months - timing belt, probably new brake pads (even though brakes work fine and had 50% pad life as of shop's inspection 10k miles ago) and wheel bearing repack at same time, new plugs, etc.

    Any advice on how to time the maintenance work vs. reducing the oil consumption? E.g. is there a good reason why one thing should be done before another thing?
  • zr2randozr2rando Member Posts: 391
    The only thing I would advise is to try and isolate problem first...
    Blue smoke at startup (first start of the day is the best to check) is oil going past valves seals/guides,,,,that would tell you to pull plugs and see which ones have the most buildup, would let you know if it is all cylinders or just a couple.
    If it turned out that valves were probably not the culprit, then the rings are the other alternative and that would require bottom end work.
    Top end work just requires work on the head(s), (I don't remember if you're talking about a 4 or 6 cyl..), bottom end means doing the whole job, pistons and cylinders....I guess you just have to see how much is needed...
    Anybody else agree/disagree?
    see ya
    Rando
  • fleetwoodsimcafleetwoodsimca Member Posts: 1,518
    Generally speaking, top end and bottom end are separated from each other by the connecting rods.
  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    You just answered a question I've had for years. I've constantly heard people say 'the top end of those motors is usually good for 250+k miles' or other such things about the top or bottom end of a motor. But I never knew which parts of the motor were in the 'top end' and which parts were 'bottom end.' I still don't know, but thanks to your post, I now have at least I have a general guideline.
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