Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

fleetwoodsimca

Many thanks for the explanation of TBN. I suspect many readers will benefit from your definition.
The more I read analysis results from various posters, the more happy I become that I have continued to do 3K oil and filter changes. I don't analyze my oil, and my periodicity is likely very safe for my various engines.
Americanflag: I have seen your post in various forms in several forums. Consider this posting my reply to you also! (:o]

armtdm

You have reached a correct interval for this oil. Youo have not overextended it and with the TBN of 2.5 it is time to change. The wear numbers are excellent so why reduce to 4000? the 5000 seems correct for the time of driving you do based upon this sample. All manuals I have seen on TBN say not an issue unless it is less then 2.0 or around 50% of original value. We don't know the origianl TBN of this oil. Wear numbers are excellent.

American flag, I would go qith 3000 every 3months in the winter months due to your very short trips. Engine doesn't heat up and will not burn off contaminants. You may see a milky white residue on dipstick if moisture is building up. Suggest taking the long way home every other day from work.

tntitan

According to someone on Bob's site the original TBN for this oil is between 6.0 and 6.5. I am going to go with 5,000 one more time and get another analysis done but I am also going to get an analysis done on a virgin sample (free if sent at the same time except I have to pay extra for the TBN). May try a different lab altogether.

runpanther

My Mother-in-Law owns a 2000 Honda Civic. The vehicle is driven less than 20 miles/week and very rarely any trips longer than 6 miles. I've been trying to encourage her to make longer trips as I've noticed that condensation never gets a chance to burn off (ie - rusting bolts, dryrot and stuff are becoming very evident).

She doesn't believe me when I tell her the risks with not getting the engine hot enough. Is there a article, web site or a analysis available somewhere that I can show her that can give her a professionals point of view?

Thanks, all, for your help

americanflag

That is a good recommendation to take the long way home sometimes, let me ask, in general, about how many miles would you say is necessary? I never had any idea that short trips were hard on cars until I started reading these forums, like most people, I would have thought the opposite. Does higher mileage on weekends make up for a week of short trips or would you still drive the "long way home" every other day? Thanks!

Fleetwood, I have a pretty boring life, but I am learning alot about cars, appreciate the help!

fleetwoodsimca

Well, learning and sharing "car stuff" is a cure for boredom! My father-in-law told me some years back that 16 miles of continuous driving was adequate to stave off short driving problems. He read that in an article on the topic. Now, he was a genuine rocket scientist who developed fuels and fueling systems for the NASA space shuttle program. I took his advice seriously. (:o]

mrdetailer

One of my first cars was a Plymouth that ran very well for 65K, then I got a newer vehicle and used only for the short trips you describe. 5 years and 30K later, engine was shot. Smoked, rough running. Mechanic said the short trips caused rust in the cylinders which in turn caused premature wear of the rings.

So now I do 3 things. Change oil under the severe service schedule, emphasizing the recommended TIME, not distance. I make sure to take at least a 50 mile trip once a month, especially in cold weather. Take a long trip at least once a year of 250 miles or more. (The engine always runs quieter after the longer trip anyway)

My current short trip vehicle following this formula has got over 175K now.

armtdm

I believe that 10 miles is enough to heat the oil up and burn off moisture etc. Maybe more in sub zero climates. On another board it was posted that the oil temp is behind the coolant so if the temp guage read normal the oil may have reached the same temp so I guess one should drive a few miles after the temp guage has found its normal point.

bburton1

That's news to me-what kind/year of vehicle was it and how many miles. Have a vw van that I have been running once every few months for over 20 years and it does not burn oil-was this a dealership mechanic? Maybe he should have been in sales.

mrdetailer

It was an Old 1970 that my Great Aunt and Uncle owned for many years before I got it. They only drove it locally, so it had a serious penalty of short trips for most of its life. The diagnosis may not have been entirely correct, but the clouds of smoke from the exhaust and extremely rough running certainly were not. It was over 20 years old at the time.

malachy72

the analysis. I'm sure you have seen the other Chevron Supreme SL analysis on Bob's board showing a much higher retention of the TBN at close to 6K miles. Makes me wonder if Blackstone made a mistake?

fleetwoodsimca

Don't overlook the idea that cars deteriorate with age to some degree, regardless of usage patterns. And that just adds to whatever problems the short haul driving creates.

arjay1

My 12 year old son asked about multi-viscosity oil during our group oil change. Even though he believes I am all knowing I now question my own answer.
I know about multi-vis oil and how it works but all the sudden I am questioning my knowledge of what should be basic info...
Take 15w40 as an example.
Does that mean that when cold the oil will only thicken to a 40 weight and when it warms it will flow like a 15 weight? Or is it like a 15 weight when cold and flows like a 40 weight when it warms up. I believe it is the first scenario but I am deferring to the group to set me straight.
Thanx!
R. J.

csandste

Flows like 15 weight when cold and like a (warm) 40 weight when warm.

wain

Shell oil?
you can buy 5w30 here for 98c a quart.

fleetwoodsimca

...is good stuff. I have a couple cases on the shelf that I bought at a sale price a while back. Years ago in college, I had an old Cadillac (Fleetwood!) that required Shell to keep the lifters pumped up properly. For whatever reason, the other big name oils of the time just didn't stop the clicking.

carbonni

Take advantage of their current promotion: $2.40/case rebate! It looks like a really good deal on a Group II basestock oil.

fleetwoodsimca

Excellent advice for those that could use a little stock up. My understanding is that Advance Auto Parts has made arrangements for Shell to be their in-house brand of oil. It's really a good product.

kansan

I have an engine with some oil leaks, and the NAPA guy recommended Lucas Oil Stabilizer to help slow down or stop the leaks. Does anyone have any experiance or knowledge of this product?
Thanks,
Ken

csandste

I thought Shell varied greatly in different parts of the country?

Related question-- What color is Shell? Since the PZ/QS buyout, Havoline is being shifted from Shell (Equilon) to Chevron. What's taking its place? The company announced that they were closing the Shreveport blending plant that made the SuperTech oils, one of my assumptions was that ST would be shifted to take up Equilon plant capacity.

I just put ST 5W30 in for the winter. Looks a lot lighter than the 10W30 did. Almost like Pennzoil. Although Pennzoil is the best of the Equilon/PZ/QS stuff IMHO, I'm not crazy about really light oil since it's hard to read on a dip stick until it darkens up a bit. This is probably a normal variation between 10W30 and 5W30 since I doubt if the Shreveport blending plant is closed yet, but the difference in color is noticible. Think I'll pose this question to Johnny on Bob's page...

csandste

Impressive demo. machine that has oil with Lucas climbing the gears. Bobistheoilguy.com tested Lucas on his Timken machine and it's worse than STP for wear agents. Of course, I'm not sure what a test of straight STP or Lucas not mixed with oil really shows. Mostly bright stock, hence its ability to climb gears. Didn't know it was supposed to stop leaks.

wain

mike1qaz

Hydro-cracked dino juice, aka... highly refined dino that meats the group 2 purity spec.

fleetwoodsimca

csandste: I tip and twist the dipstick under my garage over head lights, until I get a glare off the wet surface; and I find reading the level of the oil on the nondemarcated back side of the stick is easier. Then, just twist it over slowly so you can guesstimate the level on the side with the grid.

cdavidc

Does anyone know who makes Honda's motor oil in Canada Thanks

runpanther

I stocked up on Havoline dino 5w30 and will use it for my Toyota Highlander every 3500 miles (along with other vehicles in the family). Given the sludge problem attributed to the Toyota V6 engine, will I be ok? Or would I be wise to invest in syn oil and drain every 7500 miles?

Incidently, the vehicle now has 21k miles - all dino oil drains. Can/should I switch at this time to syn. And if so, which one? Thanks, all, for your help.

fleetwoodsimca

There are many convincing reasons to go either way, but I'd stick with what you are doing right now. ChevronTexaco has IsoSyn technology going for it that puts their product (Chevron Supreme, for sure) right there in the ball park with the popular synthetics.

pdalpsher

I have a 2001 Toyota Highlander V6 and I've been getting my oil analyzed to determine what change interval I should use. I'm coming to the conclusion that this engine is very hard on oil.

At 2400 miles, the bulk oil my dealer used was down to 20w from 30w. The Chevron was down to 5w from 30w at 3900 miles. So it looks like I'll try the next change at 3k and see how it tests.

This engine is also putting a lot of lead into the oil but the amount with the latest analysis is much lower than the original test. The amount is still high though...so much so the lab ran a second test to verify the result. Hopefully it is just bearings getting seated...but at approx 13k miles I would have thought it would be broken in by now.

The Chevron oil still had reserve additives and at 3.9k the TBN was 4.5. The Bulk Pennzoil had a TBN of .5 at 2.4k. I'm going to stick with the Chevron but I'd recommend anyone with this engine to err on the safe side by using short change intervals.

fleetwoodsimca

You're talking really good sense there. When you say, "At 2400 miles, the bulk oil my dealer used was down to 20w from 30w. The Chevron was down to 5w from 30w at 3900 miles." could you be more specific? I assume but do not know if you meant the 5W-30 was down to 5W-20, etc., or are you running straight weight oils, e.g., SAE 30-- period?

runpanther

Very interesting discussion as I'd like to learn more. A while back I had posted my oil concerns on the Highlander board but gotten the impression that those whoe frequent that board prefer to sweep the oil sludging issue under the rug.

All things considered, the Highlander is a beautiful vehicle and am very happy with it, obviously I want to keep it a long time. Nonetheless, unless I hear otherwise, I'm sticking to my 3500 mile oil changes and hoping for the best - but I sure would like to know what other Highlander/Toyota owners are doing. Pdalspher - very much appreciate your post and any future analysis - THX

csandste

If you have not done so, I think it would be a good idea to log on to BOBISTHEOILGUY's forum and post your results in the section dealing with used oil analysis. There's an ongoing debate over why the Toyota engines tear oil apart so much. Bob thinks it's because of timing gears rather than belts. Others, noting the durability of Corolla engines, point to PCV valve problems. Your analysis figures (you'll have to post all the data there) are extremely interesting. A high quality dino. oil (two of the highest if you count Pennzoil) is being ripped apart in short order.

I really believe that dino. oil is all you need in most engines, but this might be the case for a synthetic.

pdalpsher

as 10/30. I live in VA and this is recommended for year-round use. We get some cold weather, more ice than snow but have hot and humid summers. What I found interesting about the tests is that the Chevron still had additives while the Pennzoil with fewer miles had very little. I participated in the infamous sludge board and I'm familiar with Bob's site. The unknown cause of the sludging was what prompted me to do the analysis. If I need 2k changes I'll do it for this engine but it looks like I can do 3-4k on the Chevron.

pdalpsher

There is a closed board on sludge that had quite a bit of activity...it is the one started by Toyota. Bob talked quite a bit about the engine design...If you haven't read it you will find it interesting. There have been several sludge discussions but IMO they get out of hand...being dominated by opinionated folks that aren't necessarily even affected by the problem. That's the last I'll post about the 's' word here ;-)

malachy72

that the bulk oil was not Pennzoil? And was the chevron bulk or bottled?

pdalpsher

I didn't see the barrels of oil but my dealer said they use pennzoil 10/30. Most dealers use drums of oil due to volume. The Chevron was bottled and I provided it. I've had an analysis of each and the composition has enough variance so I know two different oil products were used. The analysis didn't point out any variance in what was found vs what would be expected with that particular brand. Bottled Pennzoil may give better results but given this engine...it appears that any oil that isn't partialy or totally synthetic (Chevron is ISO-SYN) is going to get sheared quicker. I'm 100% convinced that my engine needs shorter than mfg's recommended changes.

fleetwoodsimca

Go with the good sense you are demonstrating on this matter. I had a Toyota 1.6L I4 in my 1997 Geo Prizm that I traded in (50 days ago!) on a 2002 Mercury Mountaineer. I changed SJ petroleum oil and filter in the Prizm every 3K miles. I don't believe that engine to be involved in the sludging controversy, and I got excellent service from mine.

big_dog

I purchased a new 2003 Accord. As part of the engine break-in the manual says to not change the oil before the first scheduled change (10,000 miles) because they have a special oil in the new car to help break-in the engine. I want to change the oil every 3,000 miles in general. Should I wait until 10K for the first oil change???

baveux

Hello to all the Oily Guru arounds here !!

Question for you, how the castrol gtx 5w30 compares to other 5w30 ? (dino juice only )

Can you give me your 5 w 30 top ten ?

If you can resist dont tell me story about your old uncle or the I've heard a guy....let stick to the fact , data sheet etc.

I'm driving a Pontiac Montana 2002 3.4 not versatrack and I dont tow if that matters.I'm using AC filters PF47.

Thanks a millions of time

Richard

knapp3

BIG DOG: Hard to say. You'll hear many opinions about changing early to get the left over manufacturing crud out. A friend at work bought an 01 Civic. Same 10K break-in requirement. Dealer claimed the factory fill was Mobil 1. Who really knows? My friend (who usually makes the 1st change at 500 miles) waited, eventually caved in at 5k. Changed the oil with, you guessed it, Mobil 1. After 10K he switched back to dino. I drive a Maxima and follow a long standing oil analysis spreadsheet at: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100060

The data from the the various oil analysis reported on this site indicate that the Nissan engine takes a long time to break in, i.e.: 10,000 miles. Now a Nissan engine isn't a Honda, I know. But there may be a good reason why the manufacturer recommends a long break-in. Most don't. So when one actually does, you may want to pay attention.

BRAVEUX: If you read thru the above mentioned oil analysis spreadsheet at the Maxima site, you'll also see some fairly convincing data supporting Castrol GTX dino when is has been changed at modest intervals, if that's your favorite brew. The forums at BOBISTHEOILGUY also report various oil analysis. There have been some good showings for Castrol dino there too. Other facts about Castrol are hard to come by as that comapany does not make data specifications on its oil readily available for some strange reason. On the back of the quart container however, it does state that the 5w30 meets the ACEC A1-98 standard, which few other 5W30 dinos are able to match. It also says this is oil for sale in the USA. Not sure about Canada.

Other top 10? I suspect there are as many top 10 oil lists as there are people you ask.

Good luck.

baveux

Thanks for your time !I am going now to bobs...

18466

We have a 2000 Toyota Sienna with 64000 miles. (3.0 v6). This engine has only seen Mobil1 5w-30 since about 5000 miles. Oil was changed every 7500 miles and inside of engine is very clean. This has proven to me to be a great engine. I never had an oil analysis taken but engine works like new. I know some have had problems with this engine due to the letter I received from Toyota. I have cut open used oil filters and they don't seem anymore dirty than our other vehicle which is a Jeep Cherokee. In fact other than the media discoloring due to the oil they are clean. You have great engine in your Highlander.

bottgers

.......I used to be fairly active in this forum. In the last 6 months, I've switched oil brands 3 times. I was using SuperTech full synthetic until some folks in this forum convinced me that it was inferior to Chevron's SL dino. After I switched to Chevron, I was going to leave it in for 5K miles and then do an oil analysis, however, my car used so much oil while I was using the Chevron, there's no way an analysis would've even been close to accurate. I then switched to Valvoline's Max Life, in hopes that it'll slow down my consumption. It's too early to tell if it's going to help or not.

I was just wondering if as many of you are still using the Chevron, and if so, what do you think of it?

bluedevils

I've been using Chevron Supreme and Citgo SuperGard for about a year since I stopped using Mobil 1's Tri-Synthetic. I think the Chevron is fine, but since I change every 3-4k miles and don't have any really hard driving patterns (e.g. tons of short trips or extremely hot or cold driving conditions), just about any oil would probably be fine. One of our vehicles is using more Citgo SuperGard oil than it used to, which has me concerned. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the oil brand or just vehicle age.

Overall, I still have a high opinion of the Chevron Supreme. On one of these Town Hall forums, tntitan has posted the results of an oil analysis done on a sample of used Chevron Supreme from one of his vehicles. You may want to search around for it.

fleetwoodsimca

It's about time you returned! I continue to use up my SJ supplies on hand, but will eventually get to the SL stock. You might consider some Supertech brand of STP Oil Treatment substitute to slow down that oil consumption.

bottgers

.........isn't that bad. I just thought I'd give Max Life a try to see if it would improve things a bit. If it doesn't make any difference, I might switch back to the Chevron. Besides, having to add a little bit of new oil once in a while keeps my oil cleaner longer.

fleetwoodsimca

True!

malachy72

of Chevron Supreme SL posted on bob's board. There was hardly any wear after 3.2k miles with a TBN of 11. Looking a lot like an oil that would go 7k with no problems.TNTITAN, makes one wonder about the lab work you had done?

bluedevils

thanks for the heads-up. I wonder how strong a role vehicle make/model/engine could play in wearing down engine oil? Seems to me it could play a really big role and that might explain excellent results for one person and not-so-good results for another.

Any thoughts.

malachy72

no doubt about it. I wouldn't extend drains on any engine w/o an analysis. My point is really that of the 3 analysis done w/ Chevron Supreme, 2 were consistently outstanding and TNTITAN's really skewed from them. Fleetwood's guess that the hydrocracked oils are approaching synthetics appears to be headed for confirmation.

malachy72

I can appreciate your frustration on your posts in the "other" thread.